The Boss: Anti-Lead Honchkrow Discussion

Saturn

Honchkrow, the Boss pokemon! Let's study a certain Honchkrow set as an anti-lead.
The reason why we are even looking at it as an anti-lead is it's ability, Insomnia. As we all should know, it makes Honchkrow immune to sleep.
Since a lot of leads like to utilize sleep in their arsenal, and usually go by "sleep first, ask questions later", Honchkrow is excellent for such an environment. Well, let's look at it first.
The Boss (Honchkrow) (♂) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Taunt
- Sucker Punch
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Electric] = Quite possibly changed for sonething else.
Insomnia: Helps against Gengar, Crobat, scarfed Gallade, and whatever else decides to join the fray of leads. Especially lead Breloom. Finally, a "lol at Breloom" pokemon. Yeah.
Focus Sash: Why??! Because it eases prediction, such as Gengar T-Bolts and Heracross/Gyarados Stone Edges being survived. Why is Honchy so slow and fragile??
Taunt: This helps stop set-ups, and goes well with Honchkrow's Sucker Punch fame. Especially useful since stuff like Swampert setting up Stealth Rocks, or Jask passing being pain-stakingly frequent in leads. Also, can out-Taunt Mr.Gyarados by outspeeding bulky versions. Taste of your own medicine!
Drill Peck: It gets STAB, and is actually nice against common leads, such as Heracross and Infernape. And etc. It 2HKOes both Weavile and Gengar.
Sucker Punch: Honchkrow's most famous move. Unfortunately. However, this makes Honchkrow the ultimate anti-Gengar as it can't get past the Sucker Punch by Hypnosis and has to switch. Also, this means Azelf and Starmie have lots to fear from The Boss. (Yes, Starmie can be 1-2HKOed, without SS-The bulky version).
HP Electric: The move up for change the most. But right now, Gyarados is king of leads (not for long...). This 2HKOes him easily. More EVs could be moved to buff this up so as to 2HKO Skarm, which is currently 3HKOed with a rare 2HKO.
Also, one could opt to change this move for...
Pursuit?: Easier to kill Gengars and Azelfs that flee.
HP Fire: Hits Skarm just as hard, hits Zong, hits Forry.
Night Slash: Night slash for a harder hit, though it's useless mostly.
HP Fight: It can destroy Tar and Weavile, and some others. It's not hurting Blissey at all, though. Great type coverage with Dark and Flying.
HP Ice/Icy Wind: Abuse the weakness of the dragons! Use Ice attacks! One does more damage, other can lower speed. Also, that annoying Hippo is 3HKOed by this or
HP Grass: Swampert, watch out. You too, Hippowdon.
Le Damage Calcs-
Gyarados: HP Electric: 55.99% - 65.89%
Hippowdon: HP Grass/Ice: 33.33% - 39.29%
Swampert: HP Grass: 57.92% - 68.32%
So as we can see, Honchkrow can easily be tailored to counter the common leads of the day. However, it's relative slowness and fragility, and also lack of offense here are all definite minuses. However, as a lead, I believe it can be quite useful for the correct team, as a lead OR in the background. Well, comments?
I'll add concrete damage calcs in soon.
Yes, this set is currently not in the analysis.
 
A nice setup you have there. When I first read your moveset, I almost immediately thought to put "pursuit" in the 4th slot. But it would only be useful for Gengar.

Here are some of the things that I might suggest...

HP ground...

Though it isn't on your list, HP ground also has a lot of great coverage. Sure you may not hit Tyranitar as hard, and Weavile become neutral, but you can also hit more fires then just Infernape and Blaziken. You can also hit electrics with it (seeing that you have focus sash and all), as well as Metagross (who only takes neutral damage from HP fighting). Rhyperior takes the same damage from ground that it would from fighting, so it's an even trade. Blissey won't be too much of an issue due to Taunt and if it does become an issue, you can always switch.
 
you copied my honchkrow set seen here.

I do agree though, It does have many fun uses, but you might want to go with Superluck>insomnia as honchkrow WILL DIE to focus punch (asuming he switches in)

Reguarding the focussash, Why not have a life orb? stealth rocks and Sandstorm wil ruin it, plus you mentioned a 3ko on hippo, who will easily Stoneedge or Icefang.
 
Honchkrow could be moved down to 244 Speed to outrun Jolly Tyranitar and the rest could go in Special Attack to let HP Electric get some more power. Currently, 265 isn't particularly useful because everyone runs 270 anyways for fear of Heracross. In fact, you can probably go down as far as 224 Speed to outrun the standard BulkyGyara.
 
I posted an anti-lead honch in "new sets" a while ago. Naive with HP electric is interesting though. Outspeeds all non +Speed Gyara. Only problem is this isn't going to be ohko'ing gyara, and with no special attack evs, it ain't doing much to other opponents. Even Skarmory can shrug it off (42.81% - 50.30, then leftovers makes it a 3hko usually). Considering how many Electric immunes there are (and that every Gyara player will carry one) this probably isn't worth the slot.

I prefer to run mine with 252 sp. ATK EVs which would beat Skarm, but that of course makes beating Gyara hopeless.

HP Fighting is pointless as Weavile is beating you most of the time regardless (carry its own sash with its own faster priority moves), and TTar always survives, and kills you with its Stone Edge + Sand Stream.

HP Grass is really only for swampert, as Hippow likewise laughs at your sash with stream and bites you with ice fang. Against 252 HP Hippow, you are only getting a 3hko (41.67% - 49.05%), and with slack off and leftovers, its got you beat.

IMO, HP Fire is the best, mostly for its coverage against forry, skarm, bronzong and scizor. You can also use it on bugs/grass types instead of drill peck if you think they might switch out (use HP fire on Yanmega as it switches to a skarm trying to wall you for instance).

Taunt is not that good imo . . . pokes who are faster than you are just going to attack anyway, or run from Sucker Punch. Set up pokes like Hippow and Bronzong laugh at sucker punch so they don't really care that they're forced to attack you. Remember any hit at all seriously hampers honchkrow as it is OHKO'd by so many pokes. Losing sash even to the slightest amount of damage is like cutting away half your life.

My personal favorite:

Honchkrow
@Focus Sash
252 ATK / 252 SPD
-Sucker Punch
-Drill Peck
-Mirror Move
-Hidden Power Fire

Mirror Move lets you go without Hidden Power Ice and focus on a different hidden power. With Mirror move, you have a decent chance of throwing Outrages and Draco Meteors back in the owner's face.

The way I see it, Honch really doesn't give a damn about its speed. Even without any speed:

-It's still kicking the crap out of breloom and hera anyway. I don't give a damn if they outspeed me now because I'm going to one-shot them with drill peck

-It's losing to TTar Regardless

-If it's not carrying HP grass, it's losing to swampert regardless
 
Decent idea, but I'd rather have Pursuit over HP Electric. It has more applications if Honchkrow manages to survive outside of the first few turns. You will probably get a kill right off the bat against lead Gengar or Scarf Azelf, since they should both run for fear of Sucker Punch. Plus, if you're up against a Sash Gengar lead and it tries to Thunderbolt you, Pursuit screws up his Sash if he stays in and then you can either Sucker Punch or Pursuit to finish him off.
 
Pursuit + Sucker is sure fire killing any dark-weak leads. However you lose a lot of opportunity to kill other opponents. I'd personally rather drill peck the first turn. If they stay in, they're screwed by s punch next turn. If they run, I get to drill whatever's coming in. If whatever's name is not hippowdon or tyranintar, I can procede to kill or run knowing that that I did some good damage.
 
I also use Honchkrow, coincidentally. But not as a lead and I use in in conjunction with Ninjask. Speed boosts really help Honchkrow along and if Honchkrow gets a sub, all the better. Nasty Plotting behind a sub with a couple of speed boosts really does help. I use something along the lines of this:

Honchkrow @ Leftovers
Modest Nature
Insomnia
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- HP Fighting
- Mean Look / Taunt

Right now I use Mean Look but I'm really considering Taunt because Skarmory always comes in to screw me up. Mean Look rarely traps anything useful for me to stat up against.
 
Honchkrow exudes awesomeness from its every orifice... but is hindered by the ubiquitous Stealth Rock, weaknesses of his typing, and fragility.

As an Anti-lead though, he is certainly usable.

I suggest HP Grass, fights Swampert, Hippos and TTar (if you gamble to stay in). Dont really feel that HP Ground is all that usable, though Fire has its merits against the likes of Bronzong and Skarm...
 
Phiphler said:
Honchkrow exudes awesomeness from its every orifice... but is hindered by the ubiquitous Stealth Rock, weaknesses of his typing, and fragility.

As an Anti-lead though, he is certainly usable.

I suggest HP Grass, fights Swampert, Hippos and TTar (if you gamble to stay in). Dont really feel that HP Ground is all that usable, though Fire has its merits against the likes of Bronzong and Skarm...
Click to expand...
Hidden Power Grass falls short of a 2HKO on Tyranitar and Hippowdon. HP Electric will usually 2HKO the most common lead according to Shoddy.
 
BLAZIKEN_57 said:
Hidden Power Grass falls short of a 2HKO on Tyranitar and Hippowdon. HP Electric will usually 2HKO the most common lead according to Shoddy.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but at the same time, I'm doubting that Gyara will be the most popular lead for long. From simply looking at that list, you'll want to counter Gyara. Gyara users should lie low for now as a huge wave of anti-Gyara leads is probably coming.
Also, some battle experience with this:
Many noobs have tried Sporing/Hypnotising me to get Drill Pecked, and many SR leads have been ruined. Hippo is annoying, but I usually switch in my own Gyarados and start DDing up the house. Works well.
 
ChouToshio said:
The way I see it, Honch really doesn't give a damn about its speed. Even without any speed:

-It's still kicking the crap out of breloom and hera anyway. I don't give a damn if they outspeed me now because I'm going to one-shot them with drill peck
Click to expand...

Don't they still carry Stone Edge?
 
This is a perfect anti gengar lead(supposing they arent sashed) they cant touch you with hypnosis and you can pursuit them away or sucker them in the face
 
I can't remember who it was, but I saw someone on Shoddy using this (ballsy) Honchkrow lead set:

Honchkrow @ Brightpowder
- Taunt
- Sucker Punch
- Drill Peck
- Swagger

Start the match off with taunt, swagger, then Sucker Punch. Set was extremely luck based, but when he managed to pull it off it was a rather beautiful thing.
 
Rudoku said:
Don't they still carry Stone Edge?
Click to expand...

If they don't have sub, but sub is fairly popular to give you that extra FP barrier for when you can't Spore or it breaks.

I've used Haze better than Taunt just because Honchrow is so slow (Why oh why couldn't it keep the Murkrow speed?). Not using a Choice Band seems to throw some people's prediction. I don't count free turns from people trying to sleep me as a benefit for Honchrow most times, as chances are if they're not looking up basic information about a Pokemon they don't know about I could've set up or done even more damage with another lead.
 
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