The Star of David [OU]

[jester]

As you maybe could of told by the title, this team is based around getting a successful sweep from a WishCM Jirachi. I have had mix reactions with this team, obviously some good, and some bad. I've come and posted my team in a hope that I could make it better with your rates and corrections.

Team Building Process

Obviously the center point of the team, The Star of David, a WishCM Jirachi.

I was looking at possible counters for Jirachi, Blissey ( it can become a problem, but it can also be dealt with ), Celebi and Swampert came to mind at first. Instead of finding counters to these pokes, I decided just to run a poke with Toxic Spikes. Considering aswell I didn't have a lead at the time, it only seemed right that I decided to use Roserade as my Toxic Spiker.

As I had Jirachi and Roserade there, it came to my attention that Heatran would obviously be able to cause problems. I also felt I needed a user of Stealth Rock, aswell as a possible user of Roar, so Swampert seemed to fit all those catergories

At this point I was considering a partner for Jirachi in terms of sweeping, considering I had most of the other things covered for Jirachi. I decided to go with Bulky Gyarados, as it resists Fire and Ground for Jirachi, and it can also setup on both Swampert and Heatran. In turn, Jirachi can setup on counters of Gyarados, such as Vaporeon and Celebi.

I decided I would need a revenge killer in case any situations got a bit messy, such as with a DD Gyarados or a DD Salamence. I also wanted something preferably not weak to Pursuit. I decided to go with a personal favourite of mine, Zapdos, as it is fast enough to kill both of them with a Scarf, but also resists the majority of Scizor's attacks, which is a bonus.

For my final member, I thought I would need something with could pack a punch, and lure certain threats out. I decided to go with Scizor, as with U-turn, has the ability to lure out threats such as Heatran and Magnezone, which I can deal with early in the game with accordingly.




So thats the team, at one more glance:

The members:

Roserade @ Focus Sash
Ability: Natural Cure
Timid; 252 Sp.Atk/ 252 Spe/ 6 HP
Moves:
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [ICE]
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic Spikes

Roserade is a great lead, being able to setup its Toxic Spikes on the majority of today's metagame leads. Focus Sash allows me to get at the very least 1 layer of Toxic-Spikes up. Grass Knot is for STAB, and allows me to deal with leads such as Hippowdon and Swampert. HP Ice allows me to maintain max Speed, thus putting to sleep any other Roserades that may run HP Fire instead. It also allows me to deal with Gliscor leads, and any Salamence that switch in attempting to setup. Generally with most slow leads that don't get hit super-effectively by Grass Knot or HP Ice, I sleep and begin to setup Toxic Spikes. As stated beforehand in the Team Building, Toxic Spikes allows Jirachi to take on the likes of Blissey, Swampert and Celebi 1v1 and come out on top.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Relaxed; 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 6 Atk
Moves:
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
Ah Swampert, my "second" lead in a way. Generally when Roserade goes down, I bring this thing in to either setup Stealth Rocks, or scout his team via Roar. Swampert is an important member of the team, allowing me to defeat Heatran, Salamence, Tyranitar and also allowing me to lure in Celebi. Earthquake and Ice Beam form great type coverage, but also allow me to deal with some of the threats I had named above. He also resists Jirachi's Fire and Ground weaknesses, which provides defensive stability in order to help Jirachi.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Adamant; 156 HP/ 96 Atk/ 72 Def/ 184 Spe
Moves:
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Taunt
- Waterfall
Gyarados, the best that once terrorized the olden days of Blue and Red verison is still around to haunt those of the new metagames. Gyarados is the perfect offensive partner for Jirachi, as it covers both it's Fire and Ground weakness, it has access to Taunt, which can possibly give Jirachi a free switch-in from any status moves like Will-o-wisp or Thunder Wave. It can setup up on both Swampert and Heatran, while Jirachi can setup on both Celebi and Vaporeon. Gyarados also allows me to tackle Scizor and Lucario, who can pose a problem to Jirachi if it is not outsped, or if Jirachi hasn't CMed yet and Scizor is specially bulky. Gyarados can also switch in on CB Tyranitar that isn't locked into Stone Edge, and proceed to prove problems. Dragon Dance is fairly straight forward, allows me to up my Attack and Speed in one move. Taunt protects Gyarados from being phazed out and also statused. Waterfall and Return provide excellent coverage in OU, as it's only resisted by Empoleon and the rare Shedinja. Also, I was wondering about the EVs, do I really need that much Speed invested? If anyone has some suggestions on that, I'm all ears.

Zapdos @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
Timid; 80 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 176 Spe
Moves:
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [ICE]
- Thunderbolt
- U-turn
Zapdos has proved to be a very good revenge killer for so long as I have been using it to do so. It can easily save my team from the likes of a DD Gyarados, DD Salamence.With Fire, Ice and Electric, no pokemon resists this type combo except for Lanturn, which is fairly uncommon in the realm of OU. With Heat Wave, Zapdos has a reliable way of revenge killing Scizor, Magnezone, Lucario, and Metagross. Speed is not used on Zapdos often, so I often treat it as an element of surprise, which will certainly help me with with this set.

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Adamant; 162 HP/ 176 Atk/ 168 Sp.Def/ 4 Spe
Moves:
- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- U-turn
CB Scizor is quite the handful and quite the threat, with its ever popular priority move Bullet Punch, Scizor likes to cause problems. Scizor allows me to lure in Heatran and Magnezone incase my opponent has them, and attempt to deal with it accordingly. It also allows me to kill Salamence if any of my other team-members who deal with him are down, and it also helps me kill Tyranitar, Latias and Blissey. I never liked Scizor all that much due to his overusage and depedency on Bullet Punch and U-turn, however, I don't see what else I could put in here or do with it.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Bold; 252 HP/ 220 Def/ 36 Spe
Moves:
- Calm Mind
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Wish
Be it fitting that I give the title to this RMT as Star of David not only due to the time of the year, but also due to my little friend here. Jirachi is a monster of a sweeper, being able to run through ( I say run through, but it doesn't have that much speed, but it's an expression!!111 ) teams that are unable to deal with it. This set provides me with much needed physical bulk in order to setup on alot more pokes then I could before ( with 176 Spe, to outspeed Luke ). Flash Cannon and Thunderbolt are very good together as they have excellent neutral coverage. Wish is there for me to heal so I can be around for a long time, and I can also pass Wishes to any of my teammates if needs be. Normally, Jirachi has an easier time setting up when it is switched into a resisted attack, such as Scizor's Bullet Punch. However, due to the bulk on both sides of the spectrum this guy can have if I've started to Calm Mind, I feel that anything without a status, phazing or Super-effective move can make for a perfect candidate.


Well there you go, that's my team, I hope you enjoyed reading it and maybe reply shortly for some assistance to me and the team.

Regards.

 

[cmurph]

I think you should use stone edge on Gyara for Zapdos/Mence/enemy Gyara

edit: so it seems i need to add more detail to this post. Neutral coverage is great, but you should really be looking for super effective coverage to complement your stab moves. Stone Edge can hit a lot of things that people use to check Gyara for super effective damage

 

[The SPrinkLer]

Hi.

I really like your team, but I see one thing that could be changed. I think a Choice Scarf Rotom would fit the bill better, due to its ability to spin-block spinners trying to spin your Toxic Spikes away. They perform identical roles, although Rotom has some niches up its sleeve. It isn't weak to SR, and Lucario's extremespeed doesn't affect it, meaning a weakened Rotom won't die to it like Zapdos would. Rotom also has a lot better typing, being only weak to Dark, and Ghost types. Rotom is also kind of Pursit bait, meaning you can abuse it with Scizor's U-turn and Gyarados setting up. Here's the set:

Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
Timid l 248 HP/ 8 SpA/ 252 Spd
Thunderbolt/ Overheat/ Shadow Ball/ Trick

Rotom also has access to Trick, meaning it can cripple stuff like Blissey that like to switch in. The EVs allow you to 2HKO offensive Latias with Shadow Ball, while still retaining great bulk. I hope this helps, and good luck with the team!

 

[Flamethrowa.]

I like the structure of this team a lot.
But something that I don't like is how it gets broken down by stall, you have a really good hold on other types of play, but stall will really get you.

This is going to seem like a really lame rate, all I'm giving you is that it's broken down by stall, if I could I'd help you fix it, but the structure of the team is already set and there isn't much you can do.
The team should do well against most other styles of play, just not stall.
Use Sprinkles' advice and go with scarf Rotom over Zapdos, you don't need another stealth rock weak at all, and trick will help you against stall, it could assist your Gyara or Jirachi sweep depending on what you cripple. But just don't expect it to save you completely due to the newest asset to stall teams:Scarf Tar.
Nice team though!

 

[jester]

Hi.

I really like your team, but I see one thing that could be changed. I think a Choice Scarf Rotom would fit the bill better, due to its ability to spin-block spinners trying to spin your Toxic Spikes away. They perform identical roles, although Rotom has some niches up its sleeve. It isn't weak to SR, and Lucario's extremespeed doesn't affect it, meaning a weakened Rotom won't die to it like Zapdos would. Rotom also has a lot better typing, being only weak to Dark, and Ghost types. Rotom is also kind of Pursit bait, meaning you can abuse it with Scizor's U-turn and Gyarados setting up. Here's the set:

Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
Timid l 248 HP/ 8 SpA/ 252 Spd
Thunderbolt/ Overheat/ Shadow Ball/ Trick

Rotom also has access to Trick, meaning it can cripple stuff like Blissey that like to switch in. The EVs allow you to 2HKO offensive Latias with Shadow Ball, while still retaining great bulk. I hope this helps, and good luck with the team!

Ok thanks alot, I'll try that. I agree that I had some problems with my Toxic Spikes being blown away on some occasion, I had tried Gengar previously but Rotom-H seems rather good, thanks ^^.

@ Flamethrowa I do agree that I can get a bit of problems when I'm up against stall, I basically just try to out-predict him in order to for him to have to sacrifice one of his members, then see if I can then change the game somehow, but yeah I do get problems.

Anymore rates would be most appreciated, thanks :)

 

[george182]

Toxic spikes arnt needed? you don't have anyone who can stay in and stall, you have swampert, but he has no recovery, and you have Jirachi, but Jirachi doesn't need t-spikes, as she can beat blissey 1 vs 1 and t-spikes don't help her against any counters. To add to that, you hav 2 U-turners, who will rack up switches, oposite of keeping people in. Then theres is the fact that t-spikes are kinda useless in OU, on average teams have less then 2/6 pokes affected by t-spikes. Look at your own team, only 1 poke is affected by toxic spikes.

This all leads to the fact that I would suggest spikes. Now smeargle is a great lead for setting up spikes, and can even get SR up. Smeargle has spore so he will neaver miss and destiny bond to ensure he takes something down with him.

These changes are important as they allow you to bring in a rapid spinner, as gyrados and scarf zapdos really need spin support, especialy zapdos as she will be doing alot fo switches with u-turn.

However, if zapdos switches to a specs jolteon, then spin support is no longer needed, and specs jolteon has high speed and allot more power and baton pass, for the same efect as u-turn. Then swampert can swap with a gliscor, possibly the stall breaker set with taunt, u-turn, roost, EQ to help gyrados and Jirachi set up and can help rack up switches and spike damage. As gyrados can manage without spin suport as smeargle/roserade can stop some leads from getting rocks up.

A spin blocker is probably needed, But I don't no where you would fit it in, perhaps a scarfed rotom-h over jolteon/zapdos.

I prefer subsitute over wish on Jirachi, it blocks status such as t-wave from blissey which ruins a sweep and Jirachi's main selling point is being able to set up and beat blissey, you have leftovers and imunity to SS, so healing is not really needed, Substitute can also guard against priority and trick from revenge killers, can be used to guard from succer punch. as well as blocking critical hits, which can be devistating. As wish it is not a conventional choice, can you explain the reasons for wish over substitute and example situations in which wish is better please.

Bassically, I suggest:
- T-spikes not needed
- Spikes are good
- Smeargle over Roserade
- Spin support for zapdos, or get rid of zapdos
- Gliscor/Jolteon can replace zapdos/swampert
- Scarfed rotom for spin blocking
- Substitute Jirachi

111th post FTW!

 

[jester]

Toxic spikes arnt needed? you don't have anyone who can stay in and stall, you have swampert, but he has no recovery, and you have Jirachi, but Jirachi doesn't need t-spikes, as she can beat blissey 1 vs 1 and t-spikes don't help her against any counters. To add to that, you hav 2 U-turners, who will rack up switches, oposite of keeping people in. Then theres is the fact that t-spikes are kinda useless in OU, on average teams have less then 2/6 pokes affected by t-spikes. Look at your own team, only 1 poke is affected by toxic spikes.

This all leads to the fact that I would suggest spikes. Now smeargle is a great lead for setting up spikes, and can even get SR up. Smeargle has spore so he will neaver miss and destiny bond to ensure he takes something down with him.

These changes are important as they allow you to bring in a rapid spinner, as gyrados and scarf zapdos really need spin support, especialy zapdos as she will be doing alot fo switches with u-turn.

However, if zapdos switches to a specs jolteon, then spin support is no longer needed, and specs jolteon has high speed and allot more power and baton pass, for the same efect as u-turn. Then swampert can swap with a gliscor, possibly the stall breaker set with taunt, u-turn, roost, EQ to help gyrados and Jirachi set up and can help rack up switches and spike damage. As gyrados can manage without spin suport as smeargle/roserade can stop some leads from getting rocks up.

A spin blocker is probably needed, But I don't no where you would fit it in, perhaps a scarfed rotom-h over jolteon/zapdos.

I prefer subsitute over wish on Jirachi, it blocks status such as t-wave from blissey which ruins a sweep and Jirachi's main selling point is being able to set up and beat blissey, you have leftovers and imunity to SS, so healing is not really needed, Substitute can also guard against priority and trick from revenge killers, can be used to guard from succer punch. as well as blocking critical hits, which can be devistating. As wish it is not a conventional choice, can you explain the reasons for wish over substitute and example situations in which wish is better please.

Bassically, I suggest:
- T-spikes not needed
- Spikes are good
- Smeargle over Roserade
- Spin support for zapdos, or get rid of zapdos
- Gliscor/Jolteon can replace zapdos/swampert
- Scarfed rotom for spin blocking
- Substitute Jirachi

111th post FTW!

grats on 111th post xD

Anyway, yes I did change Zapdos to a Scarfed-Rotom H with the spread provided by Sprinkles in post #3. I'll consider using a Sub Jirachi then, I suppose u are correct, and I don't think I'll replace Gliscor for Swampert. Swampert allows me to wall Heatran and Salamence, whilst Salamence causes problems for Gliscor that has the spread you mentioned ( and in general ), and Heatran if it's Scarfed, which a fair few are, can just OHKO with HP Ice. I think replacing Smeargle with Roserade sounds good, and maybe if I had Spikes and Stealth Rock on Smeargle, I could go with a ResTalk Swampert. Opinions anyone?

Thank you for your reply :D

 

[george182]

Yea rest talk pert could be good, a curse pert with waterfall and restalk has great synergy for sweeping with Jirachi, and can take hits from manny sp.atkers.

The only thing is you already have gyrados for the role of stab water sweeper, so I supose gyrados could swap if you find having 3 sweepers requires too much set up and 2 vaporeon walled pokes. Mix mence has simular typing (fire, water, fighting and ground resists/imune etc.) and mix mence doesn't need to set up.

The plus side to having both gyrados and waterfal pert, is that they draw in bulky waters like vaporeon, milotic, slowbro, suicune who are all set up fodder for Jirachi, just make sure you sub infront of milotic and slowbro to block a hypnosis/yawn.

But I would suggest a roar, rest, sleep talk swampert, with a perhaps with a sp.def spread. Because with spikes form a smeargle (if you choose smeargle), you can rack up some major entry hazard damadge while scouting the oponents team, roar prevents pokes form setting up on swampert in there sleep and he can use his mass of resistance to switch in and rack up entry hazard damadge. While making a great heatran, magnezone, gengar, oposing CM Jirachi etc. counter. The final attack could be waterfall, but EQ could work as you can roar away flyers, or avanlanch/stone edge to hit flyers imune to spikes.

So a Swampert set like:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Careful: 252 HP/ 40 Def/ 216 sp.def
Moves:
- Waterfall/Earthquake/Avanlach/Stonedge
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep talk
All the moves have there own bonuses, waterfall is the most reliable, you can also use a physcial 252/252/4 spread, it depends what you want swampert to check

And a good smeargle set would be:

Smeargle @ Focus sash
Ability: Own tempo
Jolly: 4 HP/ 252 Def/ 252 speed (maximises defences, makes a meta BP a 3hko)
Moves:
- Spore
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Destiny bond / endevor
Smogon suggest taunt, but I dont know what you would be taunting, when you could just spore it. Destiny bond is for a KO, but endevor can be used multiple times, but I doubt you will get a chance to use it more than once, endevor is more reliable, but destiny bond is better if you like to use a little prediction, and most people will want to attack to prevent sleep/entry hazard set up. With a focus sash and spore, if you are faster and they stay in you are garunteed 1 layer SR and 2 layers of spikes, while the oponent gets none and then they are koed by destiny bond.

Good luck

 

[jester]

Yea rest talk pert could be good, a curse pert with waterfall and restalk has great synergy for sweeping with Jirachi, and can take hits from manny sp.atkers.

The only thing is you already have gyrados for the role of stab water sweeper, so I supose gyrados could swap if you find having 3 sweepers requires too much set up and 2 vaporeon walled pokes. Mix mence has simular typing (fire, water, fighting and ground resists/imune etc.) and mix mence doesn't need to set up.

The plus side to having both gyrados and waterfal pert, is that they draw in bulky waters like vaporeon, milotic, slowbro, suicune who are all set up fodder for Jirachi, just make sure you sub infront of milotic and slowbro to block a hypnosis/yawn.

But I would suggest a roar, rest, sleep talk swampert, with a perhaps with a sp.def spread. Because with spikes form a smeargle (if you choose smeargle), you can rack up some major entry hazard damadge while scouting the oponents team, roar prevents pokes form setting up on swampert in there sleep and he can use his mass of resistance to switch in and rack up entry hazard damadge. While making a great heatran, magnezone, gengar, oposing CM Jirachi etc. counter. The final attack could be waterfall, but EQ could work as you can roar away flyers, or avanlanch/stone edge to hit flyers imune to spikes.

So a Swampert set like:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Careful: 252 HP/ 40 Def/ 216 sp.def
Moves:
- Waterfall/Earthquake/Avanlach/Stonedge
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep talk
All the moves have there own bonuses, waterfall is the most reliable, you can also use a physcial 252/252/4 spread, it depends what you want swampert to check

And a good smeargle set would be:

Smeargle @ Focus sash
Ability: Own tempo
Jolly: 4 HP/ 252 Def/ 252 speed (maximises defences, makes a meta BP a 3hko)
Moves:
- Spore
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Destiny bond / endevor
Smogon suggest taunt, but I dont know what you would be taunting, when you could just spore it. Destiny bond is for a KO, but endevor can be used multiple times, but I doubt you will get a chance to use it more than once, endevor is more reliable, but destiny bond is better if you like to use a little prediction, and most people will want to attack to prevent sleep/entry hazard set up. With a focus sash and spore, if you are faster and they stay in you are garunteed 1 layer SR and 2 layers of spikes, while the oponent gets none and then they are koed by destiny bond.

Good luck

Alright I'll try both of those sets out then, cheers.

I'll keep Gyarados around to lure out some Water types as setup fodder.

 

[jester]

Up!

Smeargle seems to be working quite alright as a Lead, easily setting up on many of the slower leads. However, Swampert isn't going so well. It is SERIOUS setup bait for Bulky Gyaras, which I have seen quite alot, and I feel I have a slightly bigger Salamence weakness without it having an Ice move. Any suggestions on this ?