The Substitute (OU RMT)

This isn't an RMT I'm really going for anything as I'm pretty much only mediocre at OU and really need to get a nice team together for possible tourneys later. Hopefully this'll be able to shape up any weaknesses I have!

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Kingdra and Heatran weren't in either Pokemon Pinball sadly :(
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This team started out as a pretty basic DP offense team, but as I went further I ended up putting Substitute on more than half of my Pokemon one way or another. The roots of this team go all the way back to the Garchomp era so I really don't want to bore people with the teambuilding process :) It's my work in progress team so to speak that never really stops being edited. Now that Salamence is gone, I'm hoping that I can get additional help here!

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Machamp@Lum Berry - Adamant
252 HP / 136 Atk / 96 SpD / 24 Spe
~ DynamicPunch
~ Payback
~ Ice Punch
~ Bullet Punch

Why these EVs/Item? - Standard lead Machamp with some speed creep added :) They allow him to survive an Azelf Psychic and beat it back with Payback + Bullet Punch, assuming it isn't holding a Colbur Berry. The rest is dumped into Attack. Lum lets me beat sleep leads who otherwise would hamper me pretty badly.

Why these moves? - DynamicPunch and Payback have almost perfect coverage alone. Ice Punch completes by hitting Dragonite for a OHKO, and Bullet Punch is the priority that allows Machamp to beat the common Focus Sash leads.

Why this Pokemon? - There is a reason why Machamp recently took a second spot in the lead position. He really gives a lot of leads a lot of trouble, even with the anti-leading that's being done to prevent the damage he is able to cause. So many players complain of the damage this set does to their teams. It gains early momentum for my team a mass majority of the time and overall is an awesome lead for pretty much any team.

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Jolteon@Leftovers - Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Wish
~ Thunderbolt
~ Hidden Power [ICE]

Why these EVs? - Quite simple: 252 Spe and a Timid nature ensure I beat or tie everything in OU bar Ninjask, while max Special Attack packs quite a punch behind 110 Special Attack. Leftovers gives me a chance to obtain more Substitutes and add general survivability, as well as the added bonus of canceling sandstorm damage.

Why these moves? - Thunderbolt and Hidden Power [ICE] give almost unresisted coverage together. HP Ice also has the bonus of catching Flygon who like to try and switch in on the common SpecsJolt. Substitute and Wish allow for pretty crazy shenanigans with the rest of the team. I chose HP Ice over Grass because in general Heatran lures and kills Swampert better than Jolteon does and taking out Flygon who otherwise is a giant pain the the neck.

Why this Pokemon? - Jolteon is a star with its amazing Speed score which lots of the time allows it to either pass a Substitute or maul stuff with a STAB Thunderbolt coming off 110 base SpA. It also checks every sort of Gyarados bar Jolly offensive DD variants which is really handy. Luring and hopefully killing Flygon is a nice bonus also because a well played ScarfGon tears apart my team through Uturn, EQ, and Outrage.

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Gengar@Life Orb - Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Pain Split
~ Shadow Ball
~ Focus Blast

Why these EVs/Item? - Standard offensive spread, nothing really new here. Speed tying with other Gengar is a necessity sometimes so I really like the Speed. It also hits really dang hard with a Life Orb and max Special Attack.

Why these moves? - Sticking with the perfect coverage in two moves thing here. STAB Shadow Ball has the potential to hurt a lot of common stuff in todays metagame, and Focus Blast hits the Steels and Tyranitar that resist Shadow Ball. Pain Split is necessary to take care of Blissey who like to rain on my team's party, while Substitute blocks any nasty status and prevents me from getting picked off by priority.

Why this Pokemon? - I think if people could choose the three Pokemon they hated most this metagame, they would be 1) Jirachi, 2) Gengar, 3) Machamp. I happen to carry all three. So, so many teams are deathly weak to SubGar as of now. It hits ridiculously hard and can bypass many of its common counters with Substitute and Pain Split.

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Jirachi@Leftovers - Impish
240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
~ Body Slam
~ Iron Head
~ Wish
~ Stealth Rock

Why these EVs? - The Speed is designed to beat Jolly Tyranitar so I can come in and handily counter it. The Defense is designed to take two +1 LO Dragonite Outrages without dying after Lefties recovery. The rest is dumped into SpD.

Why these moves? - Body Slam is handy for spreading paralysis which can potentally help out Heatran to outspeed more middle-tier speed Pokemon while also paralyzing Scarfers (flygon again) that might want to try their luck switching in. Iron Head is standard fare for STAB and flinch hax, especially after a Body Slam paralysis. In a way it also works as a pseudo-Protect on a slower foe after a Wish. I was also missing Stealth Rock anywhere else on my team, so I stuck it here. Not sure if I should replace that with U-turn or not though...

Why this Pokemon? - I was in dear need of a defensive Steel type, especially during the Mence meta. Jirachi fills a defensive and offensive role at the same time in a way while also giving Kingdra or Heatran (fire type moves) or Gengar (ground type moves) 50% of their health back to continue Subbing and creating holes. Jirachi acts as my glue in a way while not being totally useless.

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Kingdra@Lum Berry - Adamant
88HP / 184 Attack / 232 Speed
~ Dragon Dance
~ Substitute
~ Waterfall
~ Outrage

Why these EVs/Item? - 232 Speed beats base 130s after a Dragon Dance, and 88 HP EVs let him take two Starmie Ice Beams/Thunderbolts so he can DD once then OHKO with Outrage. Lum Berry is great for getting past Jirachi's that want to ThunderWave, Rotoms that WoW, or in a pinch a potentially game-breaking Outrage confusion. I can set up a Dragon Dance while they status me and then Sub to block the next onslaught, essentally giving me another free Dragon Dance.

Why these moves? - Two moves with near-unresisted coverage again. Dragon Dance is a great boosting move of course, while Substitute blocks secondary status and gives me a barrier to Dragon Dance behind.

Why this Pokemon? - Kingdra is my Starmie switch in a pinch, who otherwise can hurt me a lot. He can also set up on many of the other Bulky Waters that hang around the tier as long as they don't carry Roar. After a couple Dragon Dances he's pretty much unstoppable also.

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Heatran@Life Orb - Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Hidden Power [GRASS]

Why these EVs? - Many people don't expect a Timid Heatran I believe, and I can get away with outspeeding some slower Suicune and Vaporeon, as well as Modest Heatran, to hurt them with HP Grass or Earth Power. Heatran hits like a truck with max SpA and a Life Orb.

Why these moves? - Substitute again serves as a utility scouting move, as well as blocking ThunderWaves that might come my way. Fire Blast is an immensely powerful STAB that, if I can come in on a Fire Move, becomes basically a win condition. Earth Power rounds out the coverage quite well, as well as catching other Heatran who might like to switch in on a Fire Blast. Hidden Power Grass does a number to any bulky water switch in, especially Starmie who can be troublesome sometimes.

Why this Pokemon? - In my opinion, no good team in the non-Mence metagame can go without a Heatran. Its resistances are too handy, it's ability is nice, and it's Special Attack is insane. Heatran is definitely the best Pokemon in this round of OU, there's no doubt in my mind. Apparently the public agrees with me too.​
 
Since this is more of a please rate rather then a retiring, I don't really want to bother with a threat list as of now. If I do get around to it it will go here!
 
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Hi,

Thought I'd throw a rate your way seeing as it looks lonely in here.

I'm keeping in mind that the team's theme has sort of developed into 'Substitute'.

Firstly I'm going to suggest optimised sets for all existing Pokemon in case you happen to keep any around. I will then suggest full replacements to cover up weaknesses. You can basically pick and choose.

I'm not sure if you just got those EVS from looking at the analysis but they are designed for surviving a modest Psychic from Azelf. These ones are generally the better ones to use in the lead position as you still survive a Naive Psychic from Azelf and you get a massive boost in attack power:

240HP / 228Atk / 16SpD / 24Spe (I've kept the speed and thats about it)

I am not a fan of SubPass on Jolteon if you DO NOT have something to abuse having a Substitute passed to them such as an offensive Dragonite. I'd therefore suggest you change Baton Pass -> Wish and Leftovers -> Life Orb. This is so Jolteon gets alot of staying power and actually manages to help a teammate if you are forced out the next turn. Two wishers is in no way redundant and really helps with the Substitute abuse. I don't see a need for Leftovers because of Wish and so the obvious suggestion of LO was made. I want to keep Substitute on Jolteon to reduce prediction against Flygon, who as you noticed is a pain the backside for this team. Just an example of where wish can help you... you Thunderbolt (or even Wish) as a Blissey comes in, you switch to Machamp to recover from any damage you may have taken in the lead spot and you can now come in on Blissey who gives your team trouble in general, more.

I love SubGar and it helps you to break down stall so no changes there. Bear in mind it will love free healing as it comes on an Earthquake aimed at Jolteon.

This is more personal preference than anything...but I like Kingdra to have a bit of bulk, especially as you aren't packing Leftovers.

88HP / 184Atk / 232Spe lets you always survive 2 Ice Beams from Starmie after Rocks meaning you can switch in, DD up, and Outrage for the guaranteed OHKO. The speed lets you outspeed base 130s after a DD, the rest into attack.

The Heatran set works just fine so I won't touch it.

Urgh... Jirachi's set I really just don't like the look of :/ It is setup bait for alot of stuff right now, the most problematic for your team being Gyarados with only Jolteon able to revenge effectively (and thats non-Jolly only as you said). I think Body Slam can be replaced with Thunderbolt to get better coverage and always OHKO Offensive Gyarados without any investment. There is still a small chance of Paralysis also.

Jirachi's role is generally hard to find a new 'Mon for covering Gyarados was sort of the best I could do, sorry^^



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Now those changes are for if you keep all your team members, however, the following is basically a bit of plastic surgery on your team.

Due to you having a heavy ground weakness and only 1 immunity / 0 resistances I highly reccomend you replace Jolteon for a SubRoost Zapdos. the moveset being:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Pressure | Timid
192HP / 100Def / 216Spe
-Thunderbolt
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Roost

You can abuse this set quite well on your team due to all the Sub users (I'm going to suggest more changes that can help abuse it even more) and gain another solid check to Lucario (easy 2HKO with Thunderbolt) who can harm your team. You put even more Pressure on Stall also.

Now to get rid of all that setup room Jirachi is handing out.

I'd move Heatran to the lead position with a moveset of your choice, really there are so many that can work. Be sure to have HP[grass] though because Swampert isn't bothered much by the rest of your team.

This allows Machamp to start abusing Substitute instead (I find Machamp does this better anyway). So the set can be changed to:

Machamp @ Leftovers
No Guard | Adamant
248HP / 252Atk / 8Spe
-DynamicPunch
-Payback
-Stone Edge
-Substitute


Standard SubChamp that allows next to nothing to set up. Confusion combined with Toxic from Zapdos can really wear your opponent down. SubChamp and Dos wear each others counters down quite well actually. Machamp sticking around is good for your Tyranitar spamming Stone Edge issues.

Now that Jirachi is no longer needed we get some wiggle room.

Firstly, you need a reliable counter to most water types and doubling up on Ice resistances can never hurt either. I thought for a while about this slot and eventually decided that

Suicune @ Leftovers
Pressure | Timid
40HP / 252SpA / 216Spe
-Surf
-HP[electric]
-Ice Beam
-Calm Mind


would help the most. This set gets set up on by nothing bar Blissey and CM Latias...oh wait....just Blissey, who the rest of your team chucks on her arse. You get an excellent counter to Gyarados who at this point would still have troubled your team along with a few other physical threats. It also deals hefty damage to Starmie (Starmie always loses if it comes in on a CM too). Enough speed to outrun Adamant Lucario, max special attack to deal the most damage to Starmie, very bulky Gyarados, Tyranitar etc.

My final suggestion was influenced by the fact that the changes above leave you with no electric resistance, and still lacking a decent check to Starmie. Oh and no revenge killer.

The suggestion is to replace Kingdra with a ScarfGon:

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Levitate | Adamant
48HP / 252Atk / 208Spe
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-U-Turn
-Filler


I don't feel like Kingdra really accomplishes much for your team whereas this Flygon helps to keep the offensive momentum that Sub teams love so much. You can revenge Lucario if you are at decent health at +2, +1 Tar, +1 Dragonite...you know the drill.

Of course I'd like you to try all the 2nd lot of changes I suggested together, as I think that is the best route to go with for your team whilst sticking to 'substitute' but I hope you can at least make use of the 1st lot of suggestions if you don't want to completely alter your team. The 2nd lot of changes vastly improves your defensive synergy, if nothing else. SubDos + SubChamp + SubGar is an offensive core that has worked for me in the past. You can deal with lead Starmie still via double switching ->Suicune->Flygon

My rates are always messy so try to read through twice if I don't make sense XD GL with the team.

P.S Blissey is now mangled by 4/6 of your team, 5 if you include Flygons 2HKO (I wouldn't :P stoopid Flygon)

Visual stuff helps, so this is the end result of my suggestions ->
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EDIT: I am aware that this may seem like thread hogging or some BS, but you had no rates so I don't see the harm in posting all this. Oh and if I didn't make it clear, the second group of suggestions are LARGELY dependant on each other, and best seen as 1 large suggestion that you may want to try. The first group are completely independant of one another.

EDIT2: No worries, I just wanted you to have the option IF you were up for for changing alot of your team to cover up weaknesses. I'm glad I could at least help with your individual sets =]]
 
O.K I am going to go with your current team and try and keep team changing to a minimum.

First of four Heatran really wants Toxic over HP Grass since it still wears down Swampert but it now also helps take down Gyarados, Vaporeon and Suicune. This rather usefull for the team since the cycle of Subs will wear you oppponinnet down. In addition Kingdra realy wants those bulky waters eliminated so he can swep easier.

I do agree however, with Ghost above when he argues that a Sub Roost Zapdos is benficial to your team. I would put it over Jolteon as well since you losess to abuse Toxic and Substitute drains the PP of your opponinets moves thanks to Pressure.


One other option for you to consider however, is making Heatran a Shuca lead (comes in after Machamp) and then running a Cm + Wish Jirachi which still suports the timne while threatening a sweep, thats up to you though.

Have a Nice Day!
 
ghost, thanks for the giant rate. I've tested some with Life Orb/Wish Jolteon over my current set and really prefer the Leftovers. I am going to stick with Wish over Baton Pass though, it helps more than I thought it would as far as that goes. I changed the Kingdra spread, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to keep looking around for something that could possibly replace Jirachi - I definitely need a Dragon resist there, so I need a steel. I'll keep playing around especially now that I have Wish on Jolteon.

As far as all the other stuff, I'm somewhat hesitant to make all those changes. I tried playing around with it but I'm just not that great but when I'm playing with it it just doesn't click like this other one does.

ginganinja, Toxic is helpful for Vaporeon, some Suicune, and some Gyarados. That's it. Gyarados gets hurt very badly by a Life Orb Fire Blast anyways, so I'm reluctant to try that especially when HP Grass nets OHKOs on Starmie and Swampert which otherwise give me problems. SubRoost Zapdos would work well, but my main problem with it is it leaves me very Jolteon weak. As of now I can kind of play around Jolteon but with Zapdos I have nothing.

I really don't want to switch up Machamp from the lead position either, it works too well :\
 
Hey Rolf,

Ok, so if you're looking to play around with Jirachi, why not try out a Metagross in that slot? The set I have in mind is a pretty standard SR set with a twist: Iron Ball. Metagross lures in Skarmory and Rotom really well, tricks them a useless Iron Ball, and proceeds to 2HKO. Skarmory easily sets up several layers of Spikes on Jirachi and Kingdra, and is a pretty big threat to a Kingdra sweep. This set will really reduce Skarmory's or Rotom's effectiveness, and can you help a lot against stall. The set is MM/EQ/SR/Trick.

Nice team man, and gl.
 
That is working out absolutely awesome for me so far, just what I was looking for. Thanks ib :) I'll get to changing the op later.
 
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