The World Cup of Pokémon 2018 - Introduction

Status
Not open for further replies.
ludicrousman said:
Or maybe, juste MAYBE, the TD's know something you don't because they talked with him and other parties involved?
Could people stop assume they have unlimited knowledge even when it was explicitly told what was happening in a former post?
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure by the wording of the post the biggest evidence they have is that he pmed someone about his possible eligibility. If that isn’t the case then that’s probably a transparency issue so lol
Even then how can’t you have an issue for someone being punished for something they could’ve done, not something they did? Why not wait until he like signs up, then it’d be far more reasonable to take action.
 
Marches said:
I’m pretty sure by the wording of the post the biggest evidence they have is that he pmed someone about his possible eligibility. If that isn’t the case then that’s probably a transparency issue so lol
Even then how can’t you have an issue for someone being punished for something they could’ve done, not something they did? Why not wait until he like signs up, then it’d be far more reasonable to take action.
Click to expand...

"I'm pretty sure", those are the most important words here. You don't know, you don't have facts, so you can't judge the situation. Same thing for me , same for everyone in our case. Only TD's and some current players would be able to. I assume captains of the team(s) undisputed could/would have joined would know, but it does'nt matter to us, because we don't know the facts.
And my guess in their proactive action is because of the new shape of teams US. Those could need this info asap to be able to line-up a roster with tryouts if necessary. If a team had put him in their line-up, thinking he could play and then was told no, it would be worse for them. But that's just a guess, they may have a different and perfectly valid reason for doing it now. Again, we don't know exactly what happened, we can't judge.
 
I don't really feel like this is the appropriate place to get into this and don't want to get in the habit of discussing tourbans in public, but this ignores the reality of the situation. undisputed told me personally on multiple occasions that he was in the region in question, and twice he asked for something he could screenshot guaranteeing him that he was good to go.

This also ignores how most questions re: eligibility come up. Most people with questionable eligibility will contact TDs for approval before signing up for a specific location. What you are suggesting would mean that there was literally no risk to breaking the established forum rule against proxies in an effort to game the WCOP system. If you wanted to play for, say, Northeast, there would be nothing stopping you from purchasing or finding a VPN service or proxy to falsify your IPs and asking a TD if you qualify. If the TDs catch you, well, no harm done, you haven't signed up yet, right? If they don't, you're good to go. Even if we said that such actions disqualified you from participating in this edition of WCOP, that would be no drawback for someone who didn't like their team or wasn't intending to play with the team they qualify for. It undermines the integrity of the tour, because you might as well try to proxy your way onto the team you want (despite proxies, again, being against Smogon forum rules) rather than playing for the team you are legitimately eligible for.
 
Hogg said:
I don't really feel like this is the appropriate place to get into this and don't want to get in the habit of discussing tourbans in public, but this ignores the reality of the situation. undisputed told me personally on multiple occasions that he was in the region in question, and twice he asked for something he could screenshot guaranteeing him that he was good to go.

This also ignores how most questions re: eligibility come up. Most people with questionable eligibility will contact TDs for approval before signing up for a specific location. What you are suggesting would mean that there was literally no risk to breaking the established forum rule against proxies in an effort to game the WCOP system. If you wanted to play for, say, Northeast, there would be nothing stopping you from purchasing or finding a VPN service or proxy to falsify your IPs and asking a TD if you qualify. If the TDs catch you, well, no harm done, you haven't signed up yet, right? If they don't, you're good to go. Even if we said that such actions disqualified you from participating in this edition of WCOP, that would be no drawback for someone who didn't like their team or wasn't intending to play with the team they qualify for. It undermines the integrity of the tour, because you might as well try to proxy your way onto the team you want (despite proxies, again, being against Smogon forum rules) rather than playing for the team you are legitimately eligible for.
Click to expand...
This still seems backwards to me, and honestly feels like a witch hunt against undisputed. Why even allow people to ask for IP checks for themselves, or ask about eligibility then? If people legitimately qualify, then they have no reason to ask. If you don’t allow people to ask, then you can simply let them post to officially announce their intent to cheat and then you have solid proof.

This is why such a preemptive ban is rubbing so many the wrong way. There’s a massive difference between thinking about cheating the system and actually doing so. Nobody is saying undisputed didn’t do any wrong by the way - using a VPN is against the rules. However, the decision for a full three month tournament ban because of that seems like a massively disproportionate punishment.

I’d like the TDs to imagine a scenario for a second. Imagine your best friend on Smogon PM’d you and said “Hey these new region rules stink. I’m thinking of joining a different region. Can you check my IP and tell me if I’m showing Northeast now?”

Can you honestly tell me that you would jump to a three month tournament ban of your best friend on Smogon? You wouldn’t just say something like “Hey dude, there’s no way this is a sustainable solution for you. You shouldn’t even try.”

Think about it. If you would treat your best friend on Smogon differently than undisputed is currently being treated, then something’s wrong here. That’s all I’m saying. This is an infraction worthy offense at worst. More reasonably a slap on the wrist.

Edit: I also want to go on record saying that I think undisputed is an idiot for doing what he did. And as a West-till-death player, I was honestly more than just a little offended when I heard the news. I’m not trying to condone his behavior at all. I just think this was a pretty unjust call, and I’m not one to sit quietly when I disagree with something like this.
 
Last edited:
Benelux_big.png


A little late, but the new Benelux logo! (Much love to 0Nl for doing such an amazing job)
 
Philip7086 said:
This still seems backwards to me, and honestly feels like a witch hunt against undisputed. Why even allow people to ask for IP checks for themselves, or ask about eligibility then? If people legitimately qualify, then they have no reason to ask. If you don’t allow people to ask, then you can simply let them post to officially announce their intent to cheat and then you have solid proof.

This is why such a preemptive ban is rubbing so many the wrong way. There’s a massive difference between thinking about cheating the system and actually doing so. Nobody is saying undisputed didn’t do any wrong by the way - using a VPN is against the rules. However, the decision for a full three month tournament ban because of that seems like a massively disproportionate punishment.

I’d like the TDs to imagine a scenario for a second. Imagine your best friend on Smogon PM’d you and said “Hey these new region rules stink. I’m thinking of joining a different region. Can you check my IP and tell me if I’m showing Northeast now?”

Can you honestly tell me that you would jump to a three month tournament ban of your best friend on Smogon? You wouldn’t just say something like “Hey dude, there’s no way this is a sustainable solution for you. You shouldn’t even try.”

Think about it. If you would treat your best friend on Smogon differently than undisputed is currently being treated, then something’s wrong here. That’s all I’m saying. This is an infraction worthy offense at worst. More reasonably a slap on the wrist.

Edit: I also want to go on record saying that I think undisputed is an idiot for doing what he did. And as a West-till-death player, I was honestly more than just a little offended when I heard the news. I’m not trying to condone his behavior at all. I just think this was a pretty unjust call, and I’m not one to sit quietly when I disagree with something like this.
Click to expand...

I suppose when one has attempted to drown the others in the poison of his own stupidity, the only way he can remain afloat is by naming everyone after himself and going down in the flames of his own vanity. Luckily, the raucous voices of good have hopefully made it clear to the foolish rulers of this so-called "kingdom" that what they did to Undisputed was a travesty. There is no excuse for Smogon taking itself so seriously at the expense at one of its most respected players with no previous track record of wrongdoing. As someone who is often reliant on a VPN himself, I can safely say that he did nothing amiss. Now, do you know what's truly concerning? The facetiousness that plagues the Smogon discord, the lack of respect that most of you truly have for each other for the sake of accumulating wins, and....well, I could go on and on, certainly. However, in the name of brevity and because I am too reticent in nature, I will not go further. I have made my point, shall we say, "Pokemon" Crystal clear, regardless.

For those of you who have qualms with the fact that I have drawn the sword and justice and am willing to fight on behalf of dear Undisputed, I have but one thing to say to all of you:

SWIM IN GARBAGE, O YOU GARBAGE.
 
Last edited:
If we're at the point of tourbanning dudes for asking to get their IPs checked then it'd be gr8 if we could also start tourbanning the dudes who admitted outright to ghosting in snake. Or the dudes who DDOS'd people in smogon tour. Or dude(s) who signed up for WCOP while on vacation in order to fake their eligibility.

Just some thoughts; ik it might be a little late w/ some of these, but if we're handing out preemptive tourbans for cheating that didn't even happen then there doesn't seem to be any reason not to hand out retroactive bans for stuff that actually did.

Screen Shot 2018-05-06 at 12.25.21 PM.png

i also retract some of the shade thrown@kg--not all, but like 62.35% or so
 
Last edited:
Sub-year tour bans are inherently unfair. The severity of a blanket x-month ban is completely dependent on the point in the tournament schedule at which it is administered and what tournaments the person is currently playing. As Hogg said, the rationale behind punishment beyond a WCoP ban was to cover the corner case of a player whose WCoP participation was contingent on successfully cheating. For this hypothetical cheater, the consequences of getting caught are missing out on Tour, Classic, and any ongoing unofficials. If we say this is a fair punishment for this player, then it is overly harsh to undisputed, who must miss WCoP in addition to those tournaments. In reflecting on this situation, I am reminded of the common saying, "Don't treat everyone equally; treat them fairly." I think undisputed's ban should be adjusted to a WCoP-related punishment to more appropriately match the nature of his offense.

My suggestion: undisputed's ban is adjusted to a permalock to the WCoP team matching his current TD-verified location. He will not be allowed to play for other teams even if he does move, region rules change again, new teams form that encompass his current region, or his current team rejects him. To me, this is the most appropriate punishment for attempting to abuse a procedure intended to enhance player experience: taking the option away from them. It reduces the need for deterrence because as soon as someone tests these rules, they cannot try it again. As a bonus, the TDs will not have to worry about undisputed potentially trying this stunt again next year and likely succeeding because he won't be dumb enough to ask a TD for an IP check this time. If this is deemed too lenient, then I believe undisputed should simply be banned from this year's WCoP, possibly in conjunction with the aforementioned proposal.

I understand that this doesn't cover the case the original ruling sought to cover, but I think erring on the side of leniency is the best choice in cases in which we cannot devise completely fair solutions. Prioritizing deterrence may make WCoP an objectively better tournament in the short term, but unreasonable punishments damage the community's trust in the TD team in the long run, and WCoP is a tournament that so heavily relies on trust and goodwill to function. We must trust, of course, that people are honest about their residencies; even if we kick undisputed from this tournament, there will be savvier characters who will fake their IPs without needing to ask Hogg if their VPN is working. We must trust that teams will manage to end up balancing themselves, and players don't organize and form one or two super-teams that dominate the field. We must trust that people from weaker regions actually bother to participate in this whole spectacle despite the fact that the tour experience will favor only a handful of teams on average. I'm not saying the TDs shouldn't make serious efforts to try and uphold the integrity of this tournament, but I don't think it's a worthwhile tradeoff to try and enforce these policies through excessively harsh measures when so much of this tournament is contingent on people willfully participating.

While I understand that the nature of these punishments and what the TDs choose to prioritize is subjective and ultimately up to their discretion, I hope they will choose to act benevolently and, despite this incident and others, trust that the majority of its constituents will respect the integrity of WCoP without needing the threat of consequence to scare them into behaving.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top