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Thought on extra heracross counters

Sovereign

I've been thinking the common type of heracross lately: a scarfcross and sometimes a cbcross, and I noticed that many don't carry earthquake. Could pure poisons be viable counters?

Ok, don't laugh: arbok with intimidate does a really good job taking any of hera's attacks, just some hp and def investment makes arbok seem pretty nice. Its gunk shot looks worth the accuracy as well.

Nidoking is resistant to all of hera's common attacks: rock, bug, and fighting. And it can fight back with some solid moves like megahorn and fire punch.

Muk, with its fairly high hp and slightly above average def, can also take in hera's attacks and curse/fire punch away at the bug and steels (though skarm may still mock it).

There is toxicroak. Not only does this thing absorb water moves, it can fully resist any of hera's attacks and jab right back with a punch.

There is weezing, but everyone knows about that thing.


Of course, all of that would be useless if the hera carries eq, which I'm still not sure if it is common or not (haven't seen a single one so far, but thats me), and these pokes do look like a waste of space for a team to some extent (as they are not as effective as the real OU pokes), but they do stop hera pretty nicely. I've tested arbok and muk so far, and it seems that those two both stop hera, but they baited steels too easily. Arbok was forced to switch, but muk was different: it could fight off the steels with curse and fire punch (not on a cbmeta, but on any other).

Any thoughts?
 
Nidoking looks like a solid Heracross counter on paper, but you must devote a lot of EVs into defense and attack. The only way to really handle a CBCross's repeated attacks is to have several pokemon that can individually soak one of Heracross's moves really well, and make sure your prediction is on target.

Steelix is a surprisingly good answer to a Choice Heracross, provided you don't switch it in on Close Combat. It can't hurt Heracross much though, but it can take repeated Choice Banded Megahorns and Stone Edges like nobody's business. Skarmory does the same thing.

The problem with using something like Arbok is that it's not much good at countering much else, and with more threats than ever you can't afford to have a specialised counter for anything.
 
Jebroni said:
I've been thinking the common type of heracross lately: a scarfcross and sometimes a cbcross, and I noticed that many don't carry earthquake. Could pure poisons be viable counters?

Ok, don't laugh: arbok with intimidate does a really good job taking any of hera's attacks, just some hp and def investment makes arbok seem pretty nice. Its gunk shot looks worth the accuracy as well.
Hera is faster though and it will probably destroy Arbok before Arbok destroys Hera. I suppose you could run Max Def/HP Impish.

Nidoking is resistant to all of hera's common attacks: rock, bug, and fighting. And it can fight back with some solid moves like megahorn and fire punch.
Megahorn is NVE against Heracross. Fire Punch is illegal with Rivalry. Poison Point can also poison Hera and make it scary. Nidoqueen works since she has Aerial Ace.

Muk, with its fairly high hp and slightly above average def, can also take in hera's attacks and curse/fire punch away at the bug and steels (though skarm may still mock it).
Can't switch in without getting 3HKOed by Megahorn.At max HP/Def Impish it *does* have a chance though

There is toxicroak. Not only does this thing absorb water moves, it can fully resist any of hera's attacks and jab right back with a punch.
Not exactly. Below average defenses and mediocre speed can still hurt if Close Combat hits

Any thoughts?
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Gliscor/Weezing/Dusknoir with fire punch all counter heracross 100%

Nidoking/Nidoqueen/Arbok/Muk are all ok.

Gengar/Salamence/Gyarados/Crobat are not very good counters but 2 of them can handle it well.
 
Heracross wreaks havoc because it's type combination of attacks make it difficult to counter.

The best hera counters are Gliscor and Weezing without a Doubt. I also think and Ice Shard Donphan could possibly handle it (although I would have to run damage calcs

I personally like Togekiss as a heracross counter (as long as I don't switch into whatever rock attack it's carrying) because I can take hits and OHKO it with Air Slash.

Duskinor can counter it unless it Night Slashes you.

You can also revenge kill it with a Scarfchomp or I think Dugtrio's Aerial Ace if your into that sort of gameplan.
 
choop said:
Gliscor/Weezing/Dusknoir with fire punch all counter heracross 100%

Nidoking/Nidoqueen/Arbok/Muk are all ok.

Gengar/Salamence/Gyarados/Crobat are not very good counters but 2 of them can handle it well.
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The main problem with Heracross is that a boosted 120 STAB move is going to hurt whatever comes into it pretty bad, even if it is 2x resist. For that reason as listed Gliscor/Weezing/Dusknoir are considered the best counters, however Dusknoir's weak to the claw moves cna result in unexpected OHKOs.

The poisons as mentioned are okay against non-EQ Hera (most) but the lack of speed and defenses means they will be dead/almost dead and maybe had the chance to launch one attack if they are lucky.

IMO that last 4 you listed are highly under-rated as Heracross switchings, but none of them like random Stone Edges, and aren't partictularly fond of the claw moves either.
 
Ironically, every Heracross I've seen today had EQ. All of those pokemon you've listed besides Weezing require wish support to take repeated hits from Cross. Nidoqueen is a superior Heracross counter then Nidoking with its higher def and hp and being able to learn Aerial Ace. I really doubt Arbok. 69 base def is really bad even with Intimadate. Muk could work.

Most Cross are choiced and therefore can be beaten with prediction or scouting.
 
Seriously, who will use Nidoking in OU just to counter Heracross? I definitely won't, I just use Skarmory or Salamence to take one NVE hit from him once, and then I predict its switch the next time and sent out Salamence to absolutely stop him (in case of CSHera, Stone Edge does like 75% with Intimidate, so if it stays, he dies unless he scores a CH).

Nothing, except maybe Gliscor, stops Heracross 100% of the time, you just have to wear it down immediately, if you know that Blissey is Heracross's bait, predict the switch and send out something that stops it. You have to know your team and know your weak spots so that you don't get owned by him on a switch.
 
Weezing and Dusknoir handle him fine, especially weezing who can 2HKO with fire blast, and hera will generally only carry one attack that's even marginally effective verses weezing. Dugtrio is good on a revenge kill too.
 
First Off, Weezing is actually a BETTER Heracross counter when Hera does have EQ. secondly, it seems to me through reading this thread that Nidoqueen/king is the best choice as a counter other than Gliscor, but the real issue here is this: is it worth the 1/6th of your team just to have a poke for countering Heracross? in the case of Gliscor, very possibly, yes. but pokes like Nidoqueen and Arbok just cant generally make it in OU, unfortunately...
 
Gust drifblim could be an interesting counter to CB-cross. Resists Megahorn and is immune to hera's most reliable, most dangerous attack, CC. Earthquake also goes out the window. With CC/Earthquake, forces a switch, letting you set-up/hypnosis incoming attacker... With megahorn, they might still go for a kill, at which time you could at least 2hko with gust. Possible ohko. I'd only swap into a choiced megahorn if you've got significant HP/def invested AND the opposing heracross is a scarfcross. I'm pretty sure CBMegahorn would 2/3hko drifblm.
 
Ikaeru said:
Gust drifblim could be an interesting counter to CB-cross. Resists Megahorn and is immune to hera's most reliable, most dangerous attack, CC. Earthquake also goes out the window. With CC/Earthquake, forces a switch, letting you set-up/hypnosis incoming attacker... With megahorn, they might still go for a kill, at which time you could at least 2hko with gust. Possible ohko. I'd only swap into a choiced megahorn if you've got significant HP/def invested AND the opposing heracross is a scarfcross. I'm pretty sure CBMegahorn would 2/3hko drifblm.
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Why not just use Hidden Power Flying?
 
Bleh. Totally forgot about that. I'm still getting used to HP being a special-attack. Yeah, that'd work a lot better. :cloud:
 
Yanmega 4x resists fighting, 2x resists bug, and 2x resists dark and will kill even scarfed versions with air slash. Just be sure he won't use stone edge....
 
Guys, Heracross will always have Stone Edge. All these flying counters like Yanmega won't counter unless you have great prediction or if you had someone use Protect to scout.

You can list almost any pokemon with decent typing and/or resistance to some of Heracross's moves as a counter, but you have to predict right.
 
Phuquoph said:
To illustrate the immense power of Choice Band Heracross, here are some damage calculations for your viewing pleasure.

Close Combat vs. Max HP/Defense+ Skarmory 54 - 63%.
Stone Edge vs. 384 HP/239 Defense Gyarados (after Intimidate) 60 - 71%.
Pursuit vs. Max HP/Defense+ Dusknoir, when switching out 56 - 66%
If Heracross switches into a Will-O-Wisp, Pursuit will OHKO. Guts boosted Pursuit does 38 - 45% if Dusknoir stays in.
Stone Edge vs. Max HP/Defense+ Weezing 33 - 39%. 65 - 76% with a critical hit.
Stone Edge vs. Max HP/Defense+ Gliscor 31 - 36%. 60 - 70% with a critical hit.
Megahorn/Close Combat vs. 401 HP/280 Defense Jirachi 67 - 78%.
Pursuit vs. Max HP/Defense+ Blissey, when switching out 36 - 42%. 47 - 56% if Heracross switches into a Thunder Wave.
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Those are the most defensive Pokemon in the game, and a statused Hera fucks them all. And Gliscor isn't perfect coverage, IMO, due to it investing purely in HP and Defense, making Heracross faster, so if Stone Edge Critical Hits, you have a 20% chance of surviving.

Nothing walls Heracross, and nothing survives Heracross. It's one of those things that just proves the pure power of Choice Band and prediction. If you say that X walls it then just look again at the Calcs.
 
The Nidos are versatile enough that I wouldn't consider the team slot a complete waste if you used one on your team. A bit statistically inferior to your usual standards, but they're decent enough. Arbok, on the other hand...

Heracross, like most any hard-hitting Choice attacker, hits most everything too hard with the proper attack. The most important element in "countering" them is to 1) Make sure you have something that can absorb its STAB attacks, the moves most likely to allow the opponent to sweep you directly and 2) Wear them down. Choice pokémon lack Leftovers recovery and they're probably not packing a recovery move either, so they don't get many chances to switch in if you press the attack and have Spikes/SR support (and, honestly, SR should probably be used on every team).

You also have to take into account whether they're using a Scarf or the attack-boosting items. A CB Heracross 2HKOs Skarmory, so that's not a viable counter, but the lack of Speed also opens it up to a Starmie or Azelf that would get one-shot by the Scarf version. Consequently, Skarmory walls the shit out of Scarfcross. That is to say, you need to make sure you have at least a couple decently fast pokémon on your team (and not just for CBcross). Also, a statused Heracross is a ticking time bomb for your opponent as much as it is you; PAR ruins its Speed (and is especially debilitating to the Scarf versions) and BRN/PSN damage will wear Heracross down as quickly as it can kick your ass.

Gliscor and Weezing are basically the best pure counters for standard play. Dusknoir isn't a "counter" per se but Heracross can't really kill it without sacrificing itself anyway, even if it switches into WoW at full health. Gyarados and Salamence need to watch out for Stone Edge, but with Intimidate and resistance to its STAB attacks they're still fairly reliable switch-ins.
 
Yanmega and Crobat can easily switch into Close Combat or Megahorn. Choice Banded Megahorn might still put a dent into Yanmega though. Those 86/86 defenses are easily overlooked. Even though predicted Stone Edges kill both, most Heracross users I've faced never fail to use their Stab moves first. So after the first counter switch, Heracross might start using Stone Edge so be careful of that. Also if you're using Yanmega then you most likely have a spinner to ensure that those dreaded stealthy rocks don't ruin Yanmega's day.

Of the pokemon you listed, I would only use Nidoking and even then Nidoqueen counters Heracross better. Nidoqueen has a great movepool so she can do more things than just counter Heracross.
 
n3ther said:
Yanmega and Crobat can easily switch into Close Combat or Megahorn. Choice Banded Megahorn might still put a dent into Yanmega though. Those 86/86 defenses are easily overlooked. Even though predicted Stone Edges kill both, most Heracross users I've faced never fail to use their Stab moves first.
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I stopped reading after that. Many battlers, including myself, will often times stone edge before using stab moves. Stone edge hits weezing, dusknoir, gliscor (the 3 closest things to counters) harder because the stab moves are NVE and close combat doesn't even hit dusknoir. Versus salamence and gyarados, stone edge hits super effective and does 60%+ to either even after intimidate. Obviously, you play against different people than I do and know something I dont, or the people you are playing against aren't thinking when using heracross. I find it surprising that most players used stab moves instead of stone edge vs you first. Yanmega and crobat are terrible switches against heracross.
 
Crobat can take a CS Stone edge, not sure about a CB one. I use Crobat with Steelix to comlpetely tackle Heracross - Both resist Megahorn heavily, Steelix takes the Stone Edge w/ -4x resistance and Crobat takes the Close Combat w/ -4x resistance.
 
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