TogeShift -- A Psycho Shift Togekiss

futuresuperstar

The Plan for TogeShift
The possibilities with Psycho Shift really span across a new board never before explored before the current generation. Recently, it has been the one thing that made Cresselia unique, set apart from its reputation as "the space duck that does nothing." However, there is another Pokemon that could make some serious use of the unique move Psycho Shift -- Togekiss. For instance, most sets are desperately afraid of status inflictions -- especially paralysis and toxic -- and a burn would protect Togekiss from anything particularly detrimental to it. Meanwhile, it could shift the burns to the numerous physical attackers that come in to use ice, electric, and rock-typed attacks, scaring away the likes of Weavile, Tyranitar, Electivire, Rampardos, Garchomp, etc., without even the need for Thunder Wave. Meanwhile, it could focus on its quite beautiful Special Defense statistic and assume a sort of special tank status, burning physical attackers with Psycho Shift and still managing to wreck havoc with Air Slash and Aura Sphere. It also could make use of Hidden Power [Ice] or Hidden Power [Electric], as a burn against Garchomp and Gyarados, respectively, gives Togekiss a relatively simple time staying in to dispatch them.

Finally, with Roost, Togekiss can still keep itself healthy even with the loss of health. Yes, I realize that it will lose a little bit of its tanking ability, but with only half the damage hitting it from the physical end and a lot of focus on a strong special defensive end, with a healing move that mends its weaknesses, to boot, it could work. I propose the following set

Togekiss @ Flame Orb
Calm, Serene Grace, 252 HP / 40 Defense / 216 SpDef
~ Air Slash
~ Aura Sphere / Encore
~ Psycho Shift
~ Roost
* Other Options Listed Below

Max HP is most likely a necessity, unless you want to go for some magic number that gives you the ability to suffer a certain amount of burns most efficiently. The 216 SpDef EVs give a bonus statistical point, and the rest is dumped into Defense. The final result is as follows: 374 HP, 236 Defense, and 352 SpDef. As previously mentioned, one could make a case for Hidden Power [Ice] or Hidden Power [Electric], most likely over Aura Sphere or Encore. Though you lose a bit of coverage, the added protection from the burns against the likes of Garchomp and Gyarados can buy Togekiss the time it needs to simply take them out rather than trying to flinch them into oblivion like it would normally have to.

Another advantage, of course, is that burns hit grounds -- Garchomp, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Donphan, Swampert, Mamoswine, and the like. All of these things are things that are impervious to Thunder Wave, and are the reason why Togekiss considers Body Slam to paralyze its opponents. With Psycho Shift and a Flame Orb, however, every single one of these opponents is severely hindered.

To make sure this point is made, this Togekiss is *not* meant to sweep or flinch the opponent into oblivion. It is meant to tank the opponent and send unexpected burns through their usual physically-oriented answers to Togekiss and whittle them down with your potential two attacks.

With the provided EVs, Togekiss has a Defense Tier of 119.48 and a Special Defense Tier of 123.67. After inflicting a burn on the opponent, most likely on a switch-in, Togekiss consequently reaches a Defense Tier of 126.75. If this calculation is wrong, please let me know, as I believe that adding the magic 2x-number 7.27 is the correct thing to do to factor in a resistance. In this case, a burned opponent hits our friendly little bird as if it resisted the attack.

To put this in perspective, after burning the opponent, Togekiss has a Defense Tier of 126.75, while a Max HP, Max Defense +Natured Hippowdon has a Defense Tier of 125.36. In this scenario, Togekiss would take physical attacks around 13-14% better than Hippowdon. Take a moment at think about all of the super-effective ice-typed attacks used against Hippowdon and how little they really do. TogeShift can shrug them off even better, and, better still, can negate its weaknesses with Roost if it is faster, which it typically is against most walls. Meanwhile, Togekiss still has a Special Defense Tier of 123.67, right around a Max HP, Max Special Defense +Natured Celebi or Jirachi at 123.74. Imagine the ability to tank physical hits clearly more proficiently than Hippowdon and special hits about the same as the most special defensive of Celebi and Jirachi. That is what TogeShift can do. And, unlike Cresselia, it can still dish out the pain with Air Slash and Aura Sphere.

Some Other Options
Now, one thing Togekiss does have access to is Wish. On this set, Roost is probably a better option, as it needs the immediate recovery to off-set the burn. Nasty Plot could technically be used in conjunction with Air Slash, but you probably won't be able to sweep. Encore deserves a mention, perhaps over Aura Sphere, as it will force switches and allow you to burn more. Once again, Hidden Power [Ice] and Hidden Power [Electric] deserve a mention, simply because their main targets will be crippled by the burn. Grass Knot can hit Swampert, but the burn is probably enough unless you really just have major problems with the Swamp Monster.

Encore, Encore, Encore!
One of the main reasons Togekiss can function better with Psycho Shift than Cresselia, in addition to the surprise, screwing of usual counters, and such, is the move Encore. Encore will force a lot of switches, racking up passive damage and allowing you to burn more opponents. It deserves merit for that reason, alone, especially considering that TogeShift has no reason to try to sweep when it can cripple an unsuspecting team.

Watch Out!
This set has two major things to watch out for -- Heatran and Heracross. Heracross can easily come in for the burn and wail on your team, so it would do you well to pack a sure-fire Heracross counter on your team. Heatran will also be able to absorb the burns with Flash Fire. This is a point for Aura Sphere, since it can cover the fiery monster, but a sure-fire fire-resist (no pun intended) will mend this worry. Also, Rapid Spin support is really good for TogeShift so that it can stand up to the physical attacks during a burn.

Comments? Concerns? Speak away!
 
Looks pretty solid, though I admit I hate it when people give stupid names to sets that haven't taken off yet.

Bringing it in is a bit tough with SR and it needs more defense than that to effectively come in on most physical sweepers and burn them. Togekiss also hates Stone Edge.

And the defense tier after burn is irrelevant if they get a hit (or two) in on you first. Keep in mind how slow Togekiss is.
 
In my opinion, a Psycho Shift Pokemon without ResTalk is really pushing it - not only are you losing durability by burning yourself but on Togekiss you are also losing a valuable moveslot for something that won't help against some of the common Togekiss switch-ins (Blissey in particular, but I also see Starmies and Heatrans).

futuresuperstar said:
It is meant to tank the opponent and send unexpected burns through their usual physically-oriented answers to Togekiss and whittle them down with your potential two attacks.
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Sure, it can tank. But unexpected? As soon as Togekiss becomes burned they will notice something fishy is going on. If they were previously unaware that Togekiss could Psycho Shift, a quick dex-check will reveal the fairly obvious - Togekiss isn't burning itself for fun.

However, should the opponent be packing Garchomp, Mamoswine, Swampert or Rhyperior (as you mentioned), this Togekiss could gain some merit I suppose. Especially if the opponent has no other answer to Togekiss.

Encore is also a pretty cool move for Togekiss, it can certainly surprise a lot of opponents and with the right team members you could get an easy sweep (since they will fear burn).

I still don't think the move Psycho Shift has much potential, it will be interesting to get other opinions though, maybe I am missing something.
 
You're really overstating its walling abilities.

Hippowdon is gaining 6.25% HP per turn thanks to Leftovers. In a Sandstorm, Togekiss is losing 18.75% per turn. This is a difference of 25% HP per turn. In other words, after being hit, you essentially have 25% less HP to work with, or just over 3 tiers changed.
 
okay. I reread this thing twice. Obi is right.

Also, your togekiss, as per my original statement, is destroyed by steel types. After the burn, if they rest, they WILL outstall your Airslashing. Aura sphere/airslash are things I wouldn't leave togekiss without. However, without encore, you might be pushing it.

I dislike Roost, I'll say it right now. Equake is SO common. IMO togekiss is a pokemon with a movepool to spare, so to speak; It has moves it doesn't need. Roost is one of them, unless you plan on getting lucky with a paraflinchhax, of which this set is most certainly not based.

I honestly also don't see psycho shift ANYTHING doing fuck all with their burn orb without a protect...thusly hampering this already move deprived togekiss.
 
I think this is a decent idea, however it has a few flaws which are not pointed out at all that come to mind for me straight away.

Survivability - Yes, I understand that you have set up Togekiss' defense to be as tanky as possible, and in this case, it's really the only thing you can do. However, Togekiss loses a heap of survivability on both ends, even with it's quite impressive Special Defense? Why is this? Not only have you taken away Togekiss' ability to negate Sandstorm damage (loss of Leftovers), and furthermore, you're taking 12.5% damage per turn on top of that.

Stealth Rock - A weakness to Stealth Rock will even further hinder survivability and thus end your status sweep pretty quickly. You will find yourself forced to Softboiled and and your ability to switch would be severely hindered vs Stealth Rock.

To make sure this point is made, this Togekiss is *not* meant to sweep or flinch the opponent into oblivion. It is meant to tank the opponent and send unexpected burns through their usual physically-oriented answers to Togekiss and whittle them down with your potential two attacks.
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This is so much easier said than done with all the residual damage you'll be stacking up.

Encore? - I can't honestly imagine how Encore could leave something this slow in a good position. Sure, you switch in on an attack that can't touch you. Odds are, however, the opponent will simply switch attacks, as Togekiss isn't exactly renowned for its speed.

Dispatching of major threats - You mentioned the inclusion of HP Ice or HP Electric to take out two heavy hitters, respectively Salamence and Garchomp. However, you will not find yourself able to take them on unless you get the Burn in first, and even then, the residual damage of your own recurring Burn will stack up with everything else.

---

No doubt you're going to have the ability to hinder many threats, but there are so many other ways in which Togekiss can be dispatched, and with its tanking ability fairly hindered due to the residual damage, Togekiss will not be surviving as long as you would like.
 
I'm going to keep this short and sweet.

Seeing this thread is more about Psycho Shift than Togekiss itself, Insomnia means Noctowl does Psycho Shifting alot more efficiently. Also Flame Orb really is unnecessary its just asking for problems in the long run.

What does have merit is the idea of a tanky Togekiss since its defenses, recovery and type certainly allow it to and certainly is possible.
 
You can't Psycho Shift sleep without Sleep Talk. Your only other protection from sleep is to status yourself in advance which isn't exactly the best idea in the world especially when its a one shot at best and forfeits lefties. Insomnia sorts out that problem by effectively completing the status circle since Psycho Shift deals with the other three.

If you want to burn than do it with someone else since its not exactly going away when they switch.
 
I don't get it.

You can't Sleep Talk and use Psycho Shift if your ability is Insomnia either, because you won't be able to fall asleep in the first place. Not to mention Noctowl isn't exactly a tank in itself. It can only Psycho Shift Burn, Paralysis and Poison.

Furthermore, it's offensive options are lacking, so even if you deflect status, you're still going down.
 
I was experimenting with Noctowl yesterday.

It's pretty much the anti-status, it cant be slept, and any other status can be reflected back. It also learns Hypnosis if you want to use it.

Noctowl is fragile and slow though, but has workable HP and SpD. Nightshade means that you don't need offensive investment either.

It sure is alot of fun to use, especially in OU.
 
Haha, someone's a fan of Psycho Mix Cresselia and Body Slamming Togehax. I've never had anyone inspired by my sets before. Some good things that this set might have above using Psycho Mix Cressy is Heracross would not on its life want to openly switch into Togekiss unless it was on a switch after something died. Heatran does not get a Flash Fire bonus for Psycho Shifting burns, however, most sets will 2HKO Togekiss. Togekiss is much more frail than Cresselia is and the different forms of BoltBeam are still used widely.

Like others have said Rest/Steep Talk is pretty much required if you want to pull the maximum usage out of this thing... To be honest it is blatantly obvious what Kiss is going to be doing, so even something like a Blissey will stall it out... and in my opinion Blissey should not be winning against Togekiss. Psycho Mix Cressy does beat Blissey 1v1. I don't think Togekiss has the durability for that especially with Stealth Rock and Standstorms/Hailstorms. A switch-in with Stealth Rock, an existing burn, and weather damage do 43% to this set... You will have to face that a lot and innovate around it if you want to use it effectively.

Choice Band Stone Edges will be something of your concern too... All of these are at least common in the top 300 or so on Shoddy.

Cresselia is in essence the insanely annoying RSE Lugia of the OU DP metagame and thus her walling capabilities are unrivaled. Togekiss is indeed hard and annoying to kill with any set, but in consideration of bulkyness Cresselia is way better and faster.

I believe Zapdos and Jolteon still do over 50% to you too.

All in all I think that this could do okay, it still is somewhat inferior to the para/Nasty Plot sets, but before I completely dismiss it, I'd like to battle it. Catch me on Shoddy sometime.
 
Actually, to all you who think it kills itself, every time it rids itself of its butn with Psycho Shift and reburns itself with Flame Orb, it does not take burn damage due to flame orb. I have not tested this, but I know the first turn Breloom's Toxic Orb kicks in he doesn't take poison damage.
 
Blue_Kirby said:
I don't get it.

You can't Sleep Talk and use Psycho Shift if your ability is Insomnia either, because you won't be able to fall asleep in the first place. Not to mention Noctowl isn't exactly a tank in itself. It can only Psycho Shift Burn, Paralysis and Poison.

Furthermore, it's offensive options are lacking, so even if you deflect status, you're still going down.
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You sorta missed the point. Sleep is a hassle to deal with and gimmicky to psycho shift so its better to ignore it altogether with Insomnia. Also as mentioned Noctowl can Hypnosis and Night Shade already which is decent enough.
 
I am Gengar said:
Actually, to all you who think it kills itself, every time it rids itself of its butn with Psycho Shift and reburns itself with Flame Orb, it does not take burn damage due to flame orb. I have not tested this, but I know the first turn Breloom's Toxic Orb kicks in he doesn't take poison damage.
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So you mean to tell me that Togekiss will get the option to continually burn the opposition, thus ridding itself of its burn? Come on, the opponent will wisen up, if not before the first burn, but certainly after that. The damage can and will stack up, ruining its survivability.

You sorta missed the point. Sleep is a hassle to deal with and gimmicky to psycho shift so its better to ignore it altogether with Insomnia. Also as mentioned Noctowl can Hypnosis and Night Shade already which is decent enough.
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Alright, so who do you think you're going to be facing with Sleep? Anyone that Noctowl or Pokemon with Hypnosis can specifically counter? I don't think so. Gengar's Hypnosis may be blocked the first time before it proceeds to own with Thunderbolt, unless it happens to be Scarfed, in which case it'll wisen up for next time. Yanmega can take you on easily with Bug Buzz or HP Ice. Pretty much the only sleepers that will have a chance of even taking on are those of the Grass variety such as Breloom.

Furthermore, this is a thread about Togekiss and Psycho Shift, not having avoiding Sleep in general.
 
Blue_Kirby said:
I don't think so. Gengar's Hypnosis may be blocked the first time before it proceeds to own with Thunderbolt, unless it happens to be Scarfed, in which case it'll wisen up for next time. Yanmega can take you on easily with Bug Buzz or HP Ice.
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Huh? Uh I think you've severely underestimated its special side. Yanmega can't even 3HKO a standard Noctowl with HP Ice even with absolute maxed +s.atk/252 EV's. Also last I checked Bug is resisted by Flying....Night Shade isn't the only offense either, it may occasionally have a STAB Air Slash for Brelooms. Even Gengar comes short of a 2HKO with T-Bolt unless its Specs equipped.

Blue_Kirby said:
Furthermore, this is a thread about Togekiss and Psycho Shift, not having avoiding Sleep in general.
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Psycho Shift is half of the topic and point was being Insomnia compliments Psycho Shift well. As for the other half my opinion is its very ineffective and gimmicky on something like Togekiss. Almost as gimmicky as the Cresselia Psycho Shift set which cropped up 2-3 months ago with this exact same strategy.
 
Blue_Kirby said:
I don't think so. Gengar's Hypnosis may be blocked the first time before it proceeds to own with Thunderbolt, unless it happens to be Scarfed, in which case it'll wisen up for next time. Yanmega can take you on easily with Bug Buzz or HP Ice.
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Huh? Uh I think you've severely underestimated its special side. Yanmega can't even 3HKO a standard Noctowl with HP Ice even with absolute maxed +s.atk/252 EV's. Also last I checked Bug is resisted by Flying, it can sleep and even roost off the damage....Night Shade isn't the only offense either, it may occasionally have a STAB Air Slash for Brelooms. Even Gengar comes short of a 2HKO with T-Bolt unless its Specs equipped.

Blue_Kirby said:
Furthermore, this is a thread about Togekiss and Psycho Shift, not having avoiding Sleep in general.
Click to expand...
Psycho Shift is half of the topic and point was being Insomnia compliments Psycho Shift well. As for the other half my opinion is its very ineffective and gimmicky on something like Togekiss. It has great offense and decent defenses, theres virtually no reason for it be running something like this. Almost as horribly gimmicky as the Cresselia Psycho Shift set which cropped up 2-3 months ago with this exact same strategy.
 
As I was reading the introduction, I was thinking, wow this has potential. Burning yourself and roosting off the residual damage while becoming immune to paralysis and toxic (2 things that can really end a togekiss sweep) really would make kiss deadly.

That is until I got to the moveset and EV spread and realized it was a tank and not a sweeper. It's really just another mediocre tank that doesn't stand out above all the rest because it offers nothing special. And no, psycho shift doesn't make it special because it's really just a 100% accuracy WoW but also announces to your opponent not to switch in a physical attacker and makes you lose life every turn. As Obi stated, losing 18% of your health in a sandstorm every turn is pretty bad for a tank.

Another annoying thing is that it would be another pokemon to go on a stall war with blissey. Blissey is the most common switch into togekiss but since it can't parahax you anymore, it will become like a cress vs bliss stall. Nor does this thing stop zapdos another common kiss switch in.

I would have thought something along the lines of nasty plot/air slash/aura sphere/roost with flame orb as that would put a stop to just about any blissey and kill it. Otherwise a nasty plot/air slash/psycho shift/roost set loses you coverage but still allows you to burn physical switch-ins and also kill blissey.
 
With Obi's Blissey with Toxic becoming popular, Psycho Shift may be worth a slot without flame orb. Stay in to see what the Bliss can do. If it uses T-wave, shift it back and switch to a ground pokemon. If it uses toxic, shift it back and switch to a steel pokemon.

Togekiss really needs them leftovers if it plans to survive. Yes, its Sp. Def is huge.

On another note: Psycho Shift isn't going to help Togekiss with its number #1 threat: Garchomp. If Garchomp switches in, and Togekiss gets burned, Garchomp can easily just sub / dance while Togekiss loses a turn.
 
It's my understanding that if you actually switch in Togekiss (so not a lead or after a KO), Flame Orb activates at the end of that turn, not at the end of the next.
 
Weavile says "thank you flame orb coz I now can KO you with Ice Punch! You're so slow you can't do shit lol!"

Really, Flame Orb on something that can usually survive STAB'd hits from powerful pokes (even Stone Edge from Choice Band Heracross!!) is just doing everyone a favor. And I don't get how Gyara / Garchomp / Gliscor are switching anytime soon on Togekiss.
 
It's too bad that Clefable didn't get Psycho Shift. It would be an amazing combination.

Anyways, this set looks decent, and it looks like it could work in certain situations; there are a bunch of things that Togekiss can do well, but this isn't one of them. Burn Orb P-shift works well on Cresselia because it has decent resists and godly HP and defense stats. It also has the benefit of being able to burn the things that will come in and try to Pursuit it (CBTar), but Megahorn CBHera with or without Pursuit will is its bane. Togekiss has good defenses overall, but just not good enough.
 
Reguardless of what was said I personally like the idea. I thought i was the first to make it up but anyway. When i was breeding togepi I was unsure what to aim for or which set to use, i found psycho shift and thought it was interesting.
I think you overlooked the fact that togekiss can baton pass. I ran this set.
togekiss @ bold
psycho shift/ baton pass/ nasty plot/ ancient power

Yeah i know ancient power does not provide much coverage but i just wanted to use it to test it out on the baton pass.
If you noticed my set did not contain a healing move. This is only because i didnt want to erase any of its moves i could not get them back since there were all egg moves or pre-evolution moves.

This set worked fine for me since it had to uses.
The primary was to burn a few pokes and the second being to baton pass.
On the first turn I would nasty plot since the burn orb didnot work until the end of the turn. On the second turn I would psycho shift or baton pass or continue to nasty plot depending on the situation

My set got both jobs done. I could burn at leat two pokes and baton pass one nastly plot on average.

I recommend using psycho shift, nastly plot, baton pass, and roost or wish depending on if you want wish support.

Also if you are going to run a togeshift then it would benefit you to also have a poke with heal bell or aromathearpy.
 
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