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Trick Scarf Gengar: Is It Broken?

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Gengar gets Trick in Pokemon Platinum, from one of its many Move Tutors. Though TrickZam is faster, and is more likely to get away with a Modest nature after it discards its scarf, it lacks Gengar's movepool to be a ridiculously potent threat. This post is going to analyse the matchups of said Gengar and show what it can actually do in a proper analysis.

Let's start with Gengar vs current common leads, as we know this Gengar will be almost exclusively used as a lead or revenge killer.

Azelf: Focus Sash variants with Psychic or Shadow Ball win, all others can do nothing but switch out of Shadow Ball. Hypnosis can still counter the former, but forces Gengar out after the sleep.

Bronzong: Trick users generally do very well against Bronzong; Bronzong with a scarf is largely useless.

Other Gengars: Shadow Ball; anything without a sash loses; Sash still wins this matchup.

Deoxys-S: Impossible for Deoxys to outspeed the Timid version, and bulky lead variants rarely if ever carry Focus Sash. The real question is: does Timid Gengar have enough oomph from Shadow Ball to OHKO?

Calm 252/252 Deoxys-E (you'll likely never see this) takes 67.76-79.93.
More common Timid or Modest 252/0 is OHKOed a bit over half the time

Note that Modest Scarf Gengar outruns all but Timid Deoxys-E with almost max speed, and almost no leads currently outrun max speed. This _will_ however change with Gengar around, so Deoxys-E with max speed becomes a risk IF it packs Psychic. Remember that a lot of lead Deoxys-E don't even carry Psychic, making this a moot point.

Dusknoir: An occasional lead in Trick Room teams, Dusknoir can Shadow Sneak to outrun Gengar, but note that even 252 Attack Brave Dusknoir (very rare) on minimum Gengar will not OHKO, and it will end up stuck with a scarf it very much does not want to wear.

Gyarados: Thunderbolt, nuff said? Gyarados can do nothing but switch out of Gengar, as always.

Hippowdon: Rare, but worth some consideration here as Gengar can only potentially harm it with HP Ice, and won't do terribly much. Standard Hippowdon's Stone Edge will 2hko with sandstorm unless it misses, a significant 36% chance in two turns that at least one will miss. This, at the very least, says Gengar can let itself be dented and stick the typically useful wall with a choice scarf, ruining it. The worst that can happen back is it steals a Choice Band, which it can just drop off on something else later.

Jolteon: Another rare lead, and one that can cannot ohko Gengar even with Shadow Ball: modest 252 jolteon can only manage 98.09 unless it packs Specs. The question is what Gengar should do to it back: Shadow Ball is a 2hko, and it can outspeed with Choice Scarf, but it will be so low that Stealth Rock will finish it later if it ever goes up. Tricking a Choice Scarf onto most Jolteons is effective; at the very least it means if they WERE packing specs, you're alive and not dead, and can get out and use the specs later. Jolteon is a somewhat effective lead against Gengar, but it's still a 5-5 matchup at best, in a world of 10/0s.

Anti-Lead Machamp: Honestly, I think Machamp wins this matchup handily. Even packing Psychic, Gengar can't do much to it. Gengar has to bail out, giving Machamp a free sub and being a serious pain to a team. This really shows how effective this set is in the current metagame: the funny thing is how many standards in format2 beat the crap out of it. ;)

Metagross: Agiligross or Support gross generally lead, and neither like being stuck with a Scarf. They will likely trade being fouled with KOing Gengar, but unless Metagross runs at least 234 speed, Timid Gengar will outspeed it even with a scarf (to throw Hypnosis at it, if it packs it), and getting stuck on Agility or Stealth Rock is definitely a bad thing. This isn't an outright win, but it usually takes the wind out of its sails.

Roserade: A lead we haven't seen in a long time, and gets outsped and smacked around by shadow ball or HP Ice. If Gengar packs Hypnosis over HP Ice, it could also be put to sleep. Roserade's best option if not switching out is Sleep Powder; Gengar has an option here to take the sleep and Trick, sticking Roserade on sleep powder while Gengar switches out or tries to wake itself.

Spiritomb: Good old Lead Tomb is still screwed; Sucker Punch doesn't stop Trick, and it's not fast enough to taunt. It's going to get stuck with a scarf, do not much to Gengar, then Gengar will either sleep Tomb and get away, or die to the second Pursuit, as it's a 2hko even without a switch, so a 7-3 auto-win for Gengar, or a marginal victory every time.

Tyranitar: Another common lead, this is where Gengar has to consider Focus Blast vs HP Ice vs Hypnosis. Focus Blast and Hypnosis are both 70% answers to T-Tar, the latter being more versatile but forcing you to switch out as you're stuck on Hypnosis. Note that Boah and Lead Tar don't typically pack Pursuit, either; you're often free to switch out, which may well be your answer here. Avantage T-Tar.

Yanmega: This guy really doesn't like Gengar leads in general, but ones it can't outspeed are much worse. Thunderbolt always OHKOs so it really doesn't have anything to do but switch out. You also have the option of sticking it with a scarf, but this IMO is overkill. Better to force it out and let the impending doom of stealth rock and your Gengar still being alive take care of it.

----------------------

Let's see what the typical format2 leads do to it, that we haven't already covered?

Abomasnow: Most A-Snow leads really don't like being scarfed, but Gengar doesn't typically like getting hit with Blizzard. This is Gengar's win, but not without taking a huge dent. Even with 252 special attack, though, Blizzard doesn't KO minimal Gengar. The worst you can do is end up against a scarfsnow, Trick, and get yourself forced out/dented. Scarfsnow leads are very rare, though.

Alakazam: TrickZam outspeeds only if it's Timid, but if it is, goodbye Gengar, Psychic is an easy OHKO. If it's not, Shadow Ball reverses the role. 50/50 matchup.

Flygon: Lead Flygon is scarfed, outsped by Gengar, and OHKOed by HP Ice. If it doesn't pack HP Ice, though, Draco Meteor flattens Gengar like a pizza.

Hippopotas: See Hippowdon, but HP Ice OHKOs.

Staraptor: Scarfraptor leads are outsped and OHKOed by thunderbolt.

Final Analysis

I think we probably have a broken pokemon with:
Trick
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power Ice/Hypnosis

Anybody else have anything to say?
 
Trick doesn't make a pokemon broken you can't sweep teams with it, actually it makes your own poke weaker as well cause you get something like Leftovers instead which is useless on a non-sub gengar
Besides you have to be crazy using trick on bronzong if he can kill you with a gyro ball

Trickgar will probably just a utility set, Gengar simply has no room for trick in his awesome movepool
 
Simply switch into something it cannot fight back against. Boltbeam with scarf and Shadow Ball is quite predictable. If you're using a Gyarados lead, switch into Gliscor. Bronzong lead, switch into something that won't mind receiving a choice scarf/already has one. Something vulnerable to Shadow Ball lead, switch into Lucario. And so on.

I don't think it'll be broken. Trick can be a game-changing move when used by the right hands, however, prediction beats this set quite easily and Trick can be suicide if used carelessly. Also, you can't do much to stuff that resist Shadow Ball and are neutral to HP Ice and Thunderbolt, while not caring about getting a Choice item tricked onto them. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you could put a team member in specifically to benefit from Gengar's Trick.
 
Yes Trick doesn't make a pokemon broken you can't sweep teams with it, actually it makes your own poke weaker as well cause you get something like Leftovers instead which is useless on a non-sub gengar
Besides you have to be crazy using trick on bronzong if he can kill you with a gyro ball

Trickgar will probably just a utility set, Gengar simply has no room for trick in his awesome movepool
Wrong. I'm guessing you haven't been up a Subgar before. When its only attacking moves are Shadow Ball, Focus Blast or Focus Punch which give amazing coverage. Even with all that I fail to see how it's broken. Sure it's annoying as hell, but I doubt it would have such an impact where teams focus around beating it like how it was with Grachomp.
 
Um Hypnosis is now 60% accuracy so Gengar answers to Tar are now 70% FB and 60% hypnosis

Got proof of how it works between Plat and D/P yet? No you don't, as the testing isn't done yet. Until we know the interaction I'm going to give it the 70% it currently has.

As for trickspecs, you do a lot more damage, but lose a lot more matchups. Azelf suddenly becomes a lot more dangerous.
 
Bronzong with scarf suddenly doesn't OHKO gengar with gyro ball anymore :D

Got proof of how it works between Plat and D/P yet? No you don't, as the testing isn't done yet. Until we know the interaction I'm going to give it the 70% it currently has.
As much as I want hypnosis to stay at 70%, that's an unfair assumption you have, especially when you are using a platinum move on Gengar.
 
Another problem with your argument is you are ignoring the fact that countless other Pokemon got Trick in addition to Gengar, including 6 Pokemon on your list of leads. IMO the best thing about Trick was its rarity, which made the few Pokemon that learned it a somewhat unique threat that was difficult to avoid with using regular strategies. But now that so many Pokemon get the move, Trick may end up being far less influential and possibly quite risky as you could very well end up giving another Trick user a free switch or a Scarf to outrun and KO you with etc.
 
Gengar already had zero real counters anyway; I don't see how trick makes it so much better that it's "broken". And let's not forget that if you don't use trick you're locked into a move and give your opponent a chance to Set-Up/Heal/Trap - the usual downside of choice items still applies.
 
I don't see how this is any more annoying than Trickscarf or Trickspecs Alakazam.

Gengar doesn't exactly have a "ridiculous" movepool, bar Thunderbolt, it has the exact same options as Alakazam: Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Hidden Power.

I'm actually glad that Hypnosis accuracy has gone down. Sure, Gengar can Trick something, but that pokemon isn't completely incapacitated. Before, Gengar had a 70% chance of rendering anything slower than it a sitting duck. It's annoying; you've got three pokemon left, they've got gengar... you decide to switch in your Scarftran hoping they Shadow Ball, but no! The Hypnosis, then set up a Substitute. GG...

There is a lot of good leads that don't mind scarves. Metagross functions well with a scarf, so what if it has to switch out after setting up Stealth Rock... suppose it used Meteor Mash instead? All you've done is lost your Gengar in exchange for giving your opponent a Scarfgross.
 
I could do the same thing with Alakazam, watch:

Alakazam @ Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 176 Spe / 80 Def

Psychic
Hidden Power Electric / Signal Beam
Focus Blast
Trick

Azelf: Focus Sash variants with Shadow Ball win, all others can do nothing but switch out of Signal Beam.

Bronzong: Trick users generally do very well against Bronzong; Bronzong with a scarf is largely useless.

Gengar: Psychic; anything without a sash loses; Sash still wins this matchup.

Deoxys-S: Impossible for Deoxys to outspeed the Timid version, Signal Beam does a huge amount of damage to it.


Dusknoir: An occasional lead in Trick Room teams, Dusknoir can Shadow Sneak to outrun Alakazam, but will not OHKO, and it will end up stuck with a scarf it very much does not want to wear.

Gyarados: Psychic? Without a Life Orb it shouldn't OHKO Alakazam. You could Trick it to ensure survival.

Hippowdon: Psychic will 2HKO, or you can Trick it.

Jolteon: Another rare lead, and one that can cannot ohko Alakazam even with Shadow Ball unless it packs Specs. The question is what Alakazam should do to it back: Psychic is a 2hko, and it can outspeed with Choice Scarf, but it will be so low that Stealth Rock will finish it later if it ever goes up. Tricking a Choice Scarf onto most Jolteons is effective; at the very least it means if they WERE packing specs, you're alive and not dead, and can get out and use the specs later. Jolteon is a somewhat effective lead against Alakazam, but it's still a 5-5 matchup at best, in a world of 10/0s.

Anti-Lead Machamp: Psychic.

Metagross: Agiligross or Support gross generally lead, and neither like being stuck with a Scarf. They will likely trade being fouled with KOing Alakazam, but getting stuck on Agility or Stealth Rock is definitely a bad thing. This isn't an outright win, but it usually takes the wind out of its sails.

Roserade: A lead we haven't seen in a long time, and gets outsped and smacked around by Psychic. Roserade's best option if not switching out is Sleep Powder; Alakazam has an option here to take the sleep and Trick, sticking Roserade on sleep powder while Alakazam switches out or tries to wake itself.

Spiritomb: Good old Lead Tomb is still screwed; Sucker Punch doesn't stop Trick, and it's not fast enough to taunt. It's going to get stuck with a scarf, if it Sucker Punched you have a free getaway.

Tyranitar: Another common lead, Focus Blast OHKOs.

Yanmega: Even if it protects, you'll still outspeed and it will have to eat a Psychic. Unfortunately, those with Bug Buzz will win. Switch out or Trick suicidally, hoping it tried Hypnosis.






Is Alakazam broken? No.
 
I could do the same thing with Alakazam, watch:

Alakazam @ Choice Scarf
252 SpA / 176 Spe / 80 Def

Psychic
Hidden Power Electric / Signal Beam
Focus Blast
Trick


Gyarados: Psychic? Without a Life Orb it shouldn't OHKO Alakazam. You could Trick it to ensure survival.

Hippowdon: Psychic will 2HKO, or you can Trick it.


Is Alakazam broken? No.
adamant max attack gyarados OHKO alakazam with waterfall :D

Timid Psychic can't 2hko 252 HP/0 spdef Hippo ;D

I know that isn't your point but alakazam can never take Gengar's place. <3 (gengar > alak) =]
 
What's the advantage of Signal Beam over Shadow Ball on that Alakazam? Shadow Ball hits everything you listed harder.
 
Yet another mistake in your Alakazam set: You take a much bigger hit from Shadow Sneak. Neutral 0Atk shadow sneak still hits you on average for about 70%, if one of the weird max attack brave ones shows up, you're as likely as not going down.

Still...this shows an excellent example of why this place is going to the dogs: matchup analysis gets trolled? What?
 
No one here is trolling, I was just demonstrating how just because Gengar gets trick, he's not going to become broken.

Any pokemon with high speed and Trick can do all the things that this Gengar can. Azelf is getting Trick and no one is crying foul about him.
 
Wait, Azelf is getting trick? This is the first I've heard anything of that. That makes the Gengar issue look like nothing happened.
 
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