Twilight Sand Team!

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Introduction

I started to play this OU team recently and I didn't had any problems against some threats like most Rain teams and Dragon-type pokés. In fact, I won most battles since I used this team, but as I don't yet faced some threats, I would like you to rate my team:

The roots of my team

I decided to start with a sand team, since it was the closest to the team that I wanted to create. Most of my favorite pokes were options for a sand team. At this point, I had 2 choices: Tyranitar and Hippowdon. I chose Tyranitar because I like him very much, also my team is going to be offensive.

Then I started to think what poke would be my sweeper. At this point, I had other 2 good choices: Terrakion and Landorus. Both had their advantages; I chose Landorus because I like him more than I like Terrakion, also I felt that Terrakion would share many common weakness with Tyranitar. The only weakness that Landorus share with Tyranitar is Water, and I'm going to show how I am covering this.

Now I have a weather inducer that is also a sweeper, and a revenge killer that can also be a sweeper. Now, I thougth that it would be good if I had a pokémon that could hit extremely hard and not have to use a Choice item. That pokémon would be a Dragon-type since Dragon-type attacks have amazing coverage, and most of my choices have an amazing movepool; Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Salamence... But I chose Hydreigon. I think that it has a better tipying than most other OU Dragon-type pokes, because it is neutral to Stealth Rock and resistant to Pursuit. Also, I think that it's offensive movepool is better than Latios or Latias. Also because I like him more XD Despite his weakness to sand, I can easily remedy this with Wish support, also I am not always going to play under sand.

Ok, now I have 1 bulky sweeper, 1 revenge killer and 1 hard-hitter. I felt that my offensive core was already complete. Then I started to think about a defensive pokémon. More specifically, a wall that could also setup entry hazards. When I realized that I had no pokémon that could easily take care of Water-type pokémon, I thougth of a pokémon that could serve the three roles (taking care of Waters, being a wall and setting up entry hazards): Ferrothorn.

I was already finishing my team, when I realized that it had an huge weakness: Entry hazards. With no rapid spinner on my team, I'm vulnerable to Stealth Rock and Spikes (only Tyranitar fears Toxic Spikes) Also, 3 of my pokémon are weak to Fighting-type moves, so it came to my mind the perfect choice for a rapid spinner: Starmie.

Now, I have a near-complete team. Oh yeah, I said I would use Wish support. Then I chose my favorite pokémon: Jirachi. Also, with Jirachi, I could drop Stealth Rock on my Tyranitar and use another coverage move.

I was tired of having my team being destroyed by Fighting-type pokémon, so I dropped Hydreigon in favor of Latios, although I think that Hydreigon hits more hard, Latios resists Fighting-type attacks and has Surf. This should help against threats such as Infernape, that I was having problems to handle. The problem is that now I have a pokémon weak to Pursuit instead of being resistant, although this should not be a big problem, as I don't yet faced Pursuit.

Although Latios was doing well against Fighting-types, he was generally losing to other types, and was also incapable of hitting hard enough. Then, I had an idea: Using a pokémon that I was considering using a long time: Jellicent. She is immune to Fighting and Water, and also pack burn-inducing moves, a thing that I was needing. Also, she is a Ghost-type; this means that now I have a spinblocker.

To finally solve my problem with VoltTurn and Fighting-types, I opted to use Celebi (as sugested by New World Order). Then I changed my Landorus to a Heatran, then to a Terrakion.

Forgoing Landorus and changing my Starmie's set made me start having problems with entry hazards, since my only rapid spinner was dying too quick to spin entry hazards, and neither Terrakion nor Heatran were immune to Spikes (and Terrakion was also not immune to Toxic Spikes). Then I changed back to Landorus.

The team

Jirachi

Lucas (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt

Previously, Jirachi was my lead, but without Stealth Rock, Ferrothorn is now my lead. As for Jirachi, it is now using a SubCM set, with Psyshock and Thunderbolt providing good coverage thogether. With Psyshock instead of Psychic, is as if my Jirachi were a mixed sweeper. The Timid nature is to allow Jirachi to outspeed every non-Choice Scarf pokémon, but even those have to bypass Substitute if they want to destroy my Jirachi.

There are times that I can tear apart entire teams only with my Jirachi, if he has sufficient Calm Mind boosts. This often happens when my opponent is using Gengar, as they expect me to KO Gengar with Psyshock, so they can make Jirachi faint along using Destiny Bond. But they get disappointed when I use Calm Mind. With sufficient Calm Mind boosts, and by PP stalling Destiny Bond, Gengar has no hope other than trying to use Shadow Ball or switching. But at this point, Jirachi is ready to sweep the entire opponent's team.

Tyranitar

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Fire Punch

Any sand team should obviously have a Sand Stream user. I chose Tyranitar because my team is offensive, and it was previously sporting a bulky mixed attacker set, but now it is using a Dragon Dance set. Most opponent's don't expect Tyranitar to be using a Dragon Dance set, so when they switch, I can grab a free Dragon Dance boost, and outspeed and KO what they inteded to use against my Tyranitar. In fact, I can often outspeed many non-Choice Scarf pokémons.

It's only problems are against opposing Tyranitar (but I can take care of them with Stone Edge and sufficient Dragon Dance boosts) and when Stone Edge misses. But I'm not going to use Rock Slide; it's Stone Edge that allowed me to KO many pokés that could otherwise KO Tyranitar.

Celebi

Vinicius (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 232 HP / 240 SAtk / 36 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Celebi is my counter to both Volt-Turn and Fighting-types. With Nasty Plot, Celebi can boost his Special Attack to then destroy most pokémon weak to it's moves. Giga Drain and Leftovers compensate for Celebi's lack of reliable recovery. He has been able to survive many dangerous attacks, such as Scizor's Swords Dance boosted Bullet Punch, and then retaliate back. It's only problem is Heatran, but I have effective counters to Heatran. Also, Celebi has been my Cloyster counter; if Cloyster decides to boost using Shell Smash, it is instantly destroyed by Giga Drain. If it decides to attack Celebi with Ice Shard, and Celebi doesn't survive, this should give me time to switch to another Pokémon that can destroy Cloyster, no matter what it does.

Landorus

Landorus (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

This is my revenge killer. I chose the Choice Scarf set also because it's attacks can be powered with sandstorm, so I thougth that it wasn't necessary to use a Choice Band. The moves Earthquake and Stone Edge provide a good neutral coverage, and Hidden Power Ice is mostly for Gliscor, other Landorus and Dragon/Flying-types. It's also good in a situation where I am about to revenge kill a Flying-type that is weak to both Rock and Ice, and I cannot afford to miss with Stone Edge.

His main problem is it's inability to revenge kill threats that pack priority moves, unless they are resisted.

Ferrothorn

Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

Ferrothorn is my only way to setup entry hazards, and my only wall, but her other purposes, aside from entry hazards, is defeating common spinblockers (such as Gengar and Jellicent) and countering Water-types (mainly those from Rain teams, such as Politoed). I chose Gyro Ball over Protect because of the massive damage that it can do against things such as Gengar (yesterday I OHKOed a full-health Gengar using Gyro Ball).

Her problem is that without Leech Seed and Wish support, Ferrothorn has to rely on situations in wich the opponent cannot damage her significantly, as Leftovers is now her only form of recovery.

Starmie

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

This is my only rapid spinner, and also serves as a sweeper, in situations that it would do better than either Hydreigon, Landorus or Tyranitar. She can also take care of some problematic pokémon such as opposing Water-types (when Ferrothorn is fainted), Gliscor, Landorus, Dragon-types, etc. Thunderbolt is now in place of Thunder, as I am often battling outside of rain now.

Weakness

As of now I don't know any weakness on my team. I will test this team more times.

Weakness apart, my team is doing very well in the brazilian server, and I won most battles. I simply chose these pokémon, after weeks planning and "studying" strategies that I could use, and watching other battles to learn how some threats work. My team seems to not fear other weather teams, and also does well against non-weather teams.

 

[New World Order]

Bleh, first time rating in a long time, time to shake off some rust. Two problems with this team, as you have identified, are fighting-types and Volt-turn. One way to hit two birds with one stone, or in this case, one fairy, is to replace Jellicent with offensive Celebi. Fighting types like Conkeldurr and Breloom couldn't care less about burns, as they are often immune to or benefit from status. Celebi can just take them down outright with Psychic. Run Leaf Storm and Hidden Power Fire as the other two attacking moves to take on common Volt-turn members such as Scizor and Rotom-W. Switching to Celebi also trades the ability to spinblock for the ability to absorb status. I personally believe that absorbing status is more important, but it's your call.

Another thing you should consider is that Ice Beam really isn't a must for Starmie, Hydro Pump is plently powerful for taking out the likes of Landorus, while the combination of Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar is enough to hold off just about any dragon out there. A more efficient use of this moveslot is to use Recover. Yes, your Leftovers cancel out sandstorm recoil, but as Starmie switches in to attacks, it has to rely on Jirachi to heal it. Using Recover also lets you drop Leftovers for Life Orb, and swap Thundermiss for the reliable Thunderbolt. The Life Orb boost will make up for the loss in power from Thunderbolt, but the boost to 100% accuracy means you don't have to cross your fingers every time you click that button.

Finally, the loss of Jellicent makes your team incredibly weak to stall. An easy fix is to first swap Leech Seed on Ferrothorn for Stealth Rock. Leech Seed is nice, but Stealth Rock is a must. It's kind of like swapping your Nintendo DS for a house. This allows you to safely use either a CM Wish Jirachi or a SubCM Jirachi for stallbreaking. The former allows Jirachi to still deliver aid to an ailing Tyranitar or Landorus, while the latter protects Jirachi from status and also allows it to scout opposing switch ins. I would personally recommend using Psychic to help against Fighting-types and Hidden Power Ice to surprise the obvious Landorus/Gliscor switch in, but just give it a test and see what combination of moves you like best. You kinda need an answer to stall on every team, so no matter how many cons come with this change, you need to make it anyways.

TLDR

Jellicent->Celebi
pros: better vs Volt-turn, better offensively vs Fighting, absorb status
cons: can't spinblock

Ice Beam, Leftovers, Thunder->Recover, Life Orb, Thunderbolt on Starmie
pros: better survivability, reliability, and power
cons: can't hit dragons as hard anymore, but you got more than enough back up for them

Stealth Rock->Leech Seed on Ferrothorn
pros: it really is just to change Jirachi's set
cons: Leech Seed is technically useful, but more of a luxury than a need

change Jirachi's set
pros: helps against stall
cons: not enough to justify not making this move

Sets

Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
232 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Recover

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

Ferrothorn (F) Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Wish
- Psychic / Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Thunderbolt / some other coverage move

 

[Dave]

@ NWO - Given the fact that DNite can potentially sweep this guys team with Multi Scale and no hazards. I find Ice Beam on Starmie necessary. He doesn't need Starmie being set-up bait vs his team who can't take a +1 Outrage to save his life. Even Jirachi struggles versus it and with Lum Berry, he's practically a goner.

Alright buddy, so what I see here is generally a pretty balanced Sandstorm team, and while your team focuses on defense, the synergy just isn't there due to the fact that you are unable to defeat other defensive teams. Your only stall breaker that you have is Tyranitar, and once Tyranitar is KO'd, you have nothing to beat 3 of the biggest threats in the game. Ferrothorn, Blissey, and Skarmory. Jellicent is able to taunt but they can simply waste your taunts due to Blissey and simple wish passing. You want to be able to deal with defensive threats a bit better.

Without entirely deconstructing your team, the weakest and most replaceable pokemon will obviously be Jellicent. I don't think that your team is defensive enough or even has the correct type of synergy to run SR/Spikes/Spin Blocker. I only suggest doing that even if you want to have a Hyper Offensive team or a Stall team. Your lack of speed is extremely detrimental for the purpose you want. Most importantly, your team covers Forretress and Starmie very well that even if you had a spin blocker, it's not entirely needed. To combat fighting moves and psychic moves (which even Jellicent isn't the best at), I would suggest simply running a Calm Mind Reuniclus.

Reuniclus @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Bold
252 hp, 252 def, 4 Special D.
- Psychic
- Focus Blast/HP Fighting
- Recover
- Calm Mind

With respectful defenses, the likes of CB Terrakion doesn't shred you apart either and can come in as a reliable revenge killer. While it isn't the speed that you may need, it most certaintly is the offensive power you need seeing as you handle regular offensive teams pretty well. It also gets rid of your Celebi weakness, especially since Celebi can really do some damage given the chance to set up versus Jellicent.

Another change I would suggest making is the following, seeing as I use a similar Tyranitar but over Leftovers I prefer to run Focus Sash to rid Terrakions whenever given the opportunity, you could swap Ice Beam for Stealth Rock and add Body Slam > T-Wave on Jirachi and Fire Punch > SR on Jirachi. This gives you a viable move to effectively deal with Scizor which your lacking, and the Body Slam prevents Dugtrio from switching in on T-Wave and Revenging you and it also makes sure Landorus gets no safe switch in. Being able to hit anything but ghosts for a para, which are seldom used to begin with in BW OU is a good thing. That extra damage can go a long way.

Thunder on Starmie is also completely unreliable and while it can snag some KO's you can't get otherwise, I would still suggest Thunderbolt. The miss just isn't worth it when using Starmie and the extra damage isn't game breaking. The only difference it could make would be 2 hitting Jellicent non specially defensive or 2 hitting Vaporeon and they just aren't used enough for it to matter. Jellicent is a bit more common but you handle it just fine with your team.

Given those changes, we covered a lot of your weaknesses without completely restructuring your team. Give it a try and let me know if the changes were beneficial in any way.

 

[San_Pellegrino]

just give stone a tr badge already jeez

and demote nwo

sorry i'll replace this with a real rate

rate

Stone makes decent points, as does nwo, and they are absolutely worth considering (particularly stone's rate, which actually offers your team a much needed win condition (reuniclus, which actually has perfect teammates with his changes) with minimal invasiveness). Allow me to stir the metaphorical pot (read: nitpick).

i would run a timid nature on starmie so you can outspeed positive nature base 110's like latios. the power loss is really not that big of a deal since you have other slam dunks to be had. jellicent is definitely the weak link here, but an oldie + goody to try is CM Latias with roar, especially with all the spikes damage and stone's fire punch rachi steel lure. using 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe and a timid nature (or alternatively 252 hp /252 def / 4 speed bold for more bulk) with CM | Dragon Pulse | Roost | Roar gives you a very good fighting and psychi counter, and can easily sweep weakened and paralyzed teams in the endgame.

food for thought

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

@NWO: Thanks for the advice! Also, I never thought running Celebi; Celebi could be the answer to my problem with Fighting-types. As the Jirachi set, I will try using this CM Wish Jirachi, but now my Jirachi will not be my lead, instead I'm now using Ferrothorn.

@SO: My team isn't defensive, it's more of "bulky offensive", but I admit that I'm having problems with pokés that can boost speed. That's why I said that I was having problems with Water-type pokémon that had stat-boosting moves, mainly speed. Also, I am thinking of making some changes to Tyranitar, but I don't know yet what I'll do so I'll stick with the current set.

@SP: I want to run Stone Edge on my Tyranitar, but therein lies the problem: If I drop Ice Beam, Dragon-types will be a huge problem. If I drop Superpower, the pink blobs will be a pain. If I drop Fire Blast, Ferrothorn and Scizor will be a nightmare to take down, and it's my best attack against Grass-types and Steel-types that are neutral to Superpower. If I drop Crunch, Ghost and Psychic-types will be harder to take down.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Pretty cool stallish team you have here.

First off, I don't suggest it fully, but if you want to use Heatran, just ditch Landorus as a scarfer and use Choice Scarf tyranitar. Scarftyranitar lacks the speed of Landorus, but any thing Landorus covered is pretty much covered by something else on your team, especially if you have Heatran, Starmie also checks anything faster. Scarf tyranitar also does a better job of trapping Latios, Gengar, and Starmie.

One good thing about that change would be losing a large weakness to Volcarona, which Im surprised your not having a problem with, seeing as choice scarf Landorus is a rather shanking check. Actually you might want to consider using choice scarf Terrakion over it if you don't want to go with scarf-tar and heatran. Scarf-Terrakion is a much better scarfer and can actually take a special hit or two.

From there you also said you have a problem with volt-turn and water types in general. You may want to test out Roserade or Celebi over Ferrothorn. However, I am not sure how effective this would be because it leaves you weaker to many physical attackers, like Haxorus and Terrakion for example. I don't see how to fix that with major team changes either. One idea I have is maybe Forrtress over Starmie, but that is a lot of team changes.

Other suggestions:
-on Tyranitar, or maybe Celebi of Heatran if you run it, consider running stealth rock so Jirachi can heal more effectively with protect
-I highly suggest you just use the standard Jellicent with taunt and 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe Bold, taunt prevents people from setting up all over Jellicent, and a defensive spread helps you better deal with Scizor
-Thunder is pretty bad on starmie, please just use thunderbolt

Changes overall:
-Terrakion > Landorus OR
-Scarftyranitar + Heatran
-stealth rock on something else?
-standard jellicent
-thunderbolt > thunder
-maybe Celebi or Roserade over Ferrothorn + Forretress > Starmie?

Good luck man.

Hide

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide

Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Roar
- Protect

Roserade (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 68 SAtk / 152 SDef / 36 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Rest
- Spikes
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
- Psychic

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Gyro Ball
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I would like to say how much I changed my team.

First, my Jirachi is now running a SubCM set with Psyshock and Thunderbolt as moves. I am using Psyshock instead of Psychic. With Psyshock, my Jirachi technically works as a mixed sweeper, and I remember how much I could tear apart entire teams only with my Jirachi. Also, running SubCM with Thunderbolt as an attack solved my problem with Shell Smash Cloyster.

Instead of Jellicent, I'm now using a Celebi, with a Nasty Plot set + Giga Drain, Hidden Power Fire and Psychic, and Leftovers. I have to thank NWO very much since now I'm not having problems with Scizor and Rotom anymore; Although Celebi dies to U-Turn/X-Scizzor/Bug Bite, in most cases Celebi outspeed and OHKO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, and Bullet Punch cannot OHKO Celebi even at +2. The only hope that Scizor has is being a Choice Scarf, and even so I have effective counters to that set. Rotom-W also gets destroyed by Giga Drain and Hidden Power Fire/Ice is often not enough to OHKO Celebi. Fighting-types are also getting destroyed by Psychic.

Ferrothorn is now using Stealth Rock instead of Leech Seed, although now it's harder for her to survive without Leech Seed recovery and Wish support. This isn't much of a problem, however.

My Tyranitar is now running a Dragon Dance set, with Stone Edge, Crunch and Fire Punch as attacks. It's doing well since after a Dragon Dance I can outspeed even some of the fastest pokés, provided that they aren't using Choice Scarf. My opponents don't expect Tyranitar to be using a Dragon Dance set, so most of times I can get at least one Dragon Dance boost.

However, I have now another problem. After I tried to use Heatran and Terrakion, combined with a Life Orb Starmie, I was having severe problems with Spikes and Toxic Spikes, since without Landorus, none of my pokés were immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. As Starmie is my only Rapid Spinner and it tended to die very quicly due to sandstorm damage, Life Orb recoil and even Spikes/Poison (from Toxic Spikes) damage, generally I could not spin away entry hazards, and even when I could, Starmie died and the opponent could setup entry hazards again. Without Starmie, my team was losing due to entry hazards damage. Then I switched back to Landorus and Leftovers Starmie.

Apart from the above problem with Spikes/Toxic Spikes, wich I solved by switching back to Landorus and Leftovers Starmie, my team is now having no problems with Fighting-types, VoltTurn, burn or Cloyster.