Typhlosion (Howl)

PunkWafflezXD

Well, I'm pretty new here, and I've never done this before, but here goes nothing:
Also take note that english isn't my mother language so feel free to correct my grammar/punctual mistakes here and there, I won't take offense =P

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/typhlosion


[SET]
name: Howl
move 1: Howl
move 2: Flare Blitz
move 3: Earthquake / Hidden power [water]
move 4: Thunderpunch / Quick Attack
item: Leftovers / Life orb
ability: Blaze
nature: Jolly / Adamant / Naughty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-It makes a good and yet reliable surprise factor, as once typhlosion comes in they most likely would switch to special walls to wall it, most likely predicting a choice set, milotic is a common poke that walls specs/scarf typhlosion.
-Rather effective as a physical set, not outclassed by arcanine since it has access to earthquake and blaze, both rather useful, not to mention a stronger electric move.


[Additional comments]
-Quick attack might be a good choice for priority, however it isn't stabbed, but then you get walled by bulky waters such as milotic and blastoise.
-Fire punch can be an alternative if you dislike the recoil, but if you run fire punch, life orb is pretty much your only choice in items since typhlosion doesn't have that great attack while fire punch has low power too.
-Life orb may help with dealing more damage, but partnered with flare blitz might cause quite a lot of recoil, especially when your opponent's team is sweep-able with typhlosion
-Hidden power water can help you deal with rhyperior, while losing earthquake's type coverage as a downside.


[Teammates and Counters]
-Since Typhlosion is most likely not able to sweep midgame, if you're not using to clean up, it might be useful for rapidspin support, you might be coming in and out a lot, donphan is quite efficient partnered with typhlosion
-If rapid spin doesn't suit you, wish support also would help if it's switched out once or twice after flare blitz/life orb/stealth rock recoil wish support can be a big plus, leafeon and chansey are both capable of doing the job well.
-The biggest counter to typhlosion is bulky water-grounds, notably quagsire and gastodon, while immune to thunderpunch, they can hit you with a strong stab earthquake.
 
in theory this seems like a solid set you've presented but the surprise factor you claim it has isn't really a huge deal since the only pokemon you'll take by preemptive strike is chansey and occasionally slowking (+1 thunderpunch deals 74.5% - 88%). you're still getting the same switch-ins like milotic and slowbro.

insert this calc in your thread:
Code: 
+1 typhlosion thunderpunch vs. max/max milotic - 50.9% - 60.1%

you can catch milotic at a relatively weakened state and since typhlosion normally attracts milotic almost 100% of the time, you'll be sure to catch it off guard with a +1 thunderpunch.

in terms of the analysis though, actually mention and differentiate its primary differences against physical fire-types. let me help you out:

  • typhlosion has a high speed for a fire-type (100 spe) and it outpaces a majority of the metagame. this allows you to strike sweepers as well since blaziken's main problem as a swords dance sweeper is his relatively low speed, which affects its performance against both stall and offense. (it really does shine vs stall only for the most part). typhlosion is able to hold its ground against stall and offense.
  • common flash-fire users are outpaced and dealt with earthquake.
  • access to earthquake means you are not completely outclassed by arcanine and you have the ability to hit rhyperior without running a stat-inducing nature and hp grass.
flare blitz v. fire punch

flare blitz i think should maintain as the only option and you should leave fire punch in the additional comments section. +1 is not really an astonishing boost and flare blitz will help you deal with stuff like spiritomb, uxie, claydol, and all the other pokemon not affected super effectively. let me demonstrate some important damage points you'll attain from flare blitz:

Code: 
+1 flare blitz vs defensive tomb - 91.1% - 107.5%
+1 flare blitz vs defensive uxie - 48.3% - 57.1%
+1 flare blitz vs defensive tangrowth - 87.6% - 103%

so essentially, you want to dish out as much damage as possible instead of worrying about your hp. with fire punch, you'll miss out the possibility of attaining a ohko on several pokes and if you miss a ohko, you'll possibly be hit back or diasbled (thunder wave from uxie).

omastar is an excellent partner since it can provide spikes and sr for typhlosion to sweep later in the game. that's my two cents for partners. good luck, hope you take my advice!
 
@Franky
Thanks, I'm pretty new here and I'm still getting used to this =P
I really appreciate you taking your time to write this lengthy feedback, and I'll response in order of your order.

-First off, I've done the calcs for typhlosion, and I've also proven that if there isn't SR typhlosion can live a surf from switch in milotics, basically a scenario similar to this:
-opponent switches into milotic
-set up a howl
-Thunderpunch to do around half
-they surf
-live, then kill it off with another thunderpunch

You've got a few good points there with the other fire types, as I've mentioned already about arcanine, I will mention it's speed advantage in UU and outpacing flashfire users, thanks for that.

Finally, while flare blitz is most likely the primary choice for most people, fire punch might work since both defensive tomb+tangrowth has a possibility of living a flare blitz, and with LO recoil+Flare blitz recoil it will ware it down quite a bit, and spiritomb has a chance of striking back with shadow ball or dark pulse and most likely finishing it off, and tangrowth can leech seed and maybe stall out a bit. So for now I'll be keeping it there.

Again, thanks for your rate ^^
 
I think the comparison that needs to be made is with Charizard. He has the same stats, the same physical attacks, and Swords Dance or Dragon Dance to use instead of Howl. The only notable advantage Typhlosion has is that it is 2x weak to Stealth Rock instead of 4x weak, but as you mentioned even Typhlosion needs Stealth Rock gone in order to survive a hit from Milotic. Swords Dance also lets Charizard 2HKO Slowbro, or OHKO Milotic if you get two boosts.

I suppose physical Typhlosion is a bit more of a surprise than physical Charizard, though, thanks to the threat of Belly Drum.
 
I have a couple things to say. I did some calcs and I find Adamant nature Typhlosion with LO to be absolutely necessary. You hit a minimum of 55% after a Howl with Thunder Punch against Milotic. May I also allow you to consider Hidden Power Water?

All of these calculations were done using a Naughty nature (+Atk, -SpD) with a 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe EV spread. The IVs were 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA (with the rest 31 of course) to obtain Hidden Power Water.

+1 ThunderPunch vs. 248/252+ Milotic 55% - 65.1%
+1 ThunderPunch vs. 252/252 + Slowbro 44.7% - 52.8%
+1 Earthquake vs. 140/32 Rhyperior 49.8% - 58.6%
Earthquake vs. 120/0 Arcanine 79.8% - 94%
Earthquake vs. 240/168+ Arcanine 54.6% - 64.6%
Hidden Power Water vs. 120/0 Arcanine 48.4% - 57.5%
Hidden Power Water vs. 252/252+ Arcanine 30.7% - 36.5%
Hidden Power Water vs. 140/0 Rhyperior 84.2% - 99.8%

I'd really say the choice between Earthquake or Hidden Power Water is a choice between hurting fire-types or Rhyperior more.
 
Örly said:
All of these calculations were done using a Naughty nature (+Atk, -SpA) with a 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe EV spread. The IVs were 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA (with the rest 31 of course) to obtain Hidden Power Water.
Click to expand...

Naughty nature is (+Atk, -SpD)

Adamant nature is (+Atk, -SpA)

Anyways, I tested this set with SR and Spikes support, and it does well, eliminating Milotic both times I encountered it. It usually loses to Scarfed revenge killers but otherwise, this set is pretty good.
 
@Scoopapa
Maybe you're right, charizard does have the advantage with dragon dance, however roost is almost necessary with charizard making it lose one of two very useful moves, earthquake or thunderpunch. If it runs earthquake then milotic walls it perfectly, being able to most likely 2HKO charizard even with spin support, but if it runs thunderpunch, it's easily walled by bulky grounds such as donphan and sandslash. And also standard charizard without setup can't outpace typhlosion since it usually runs 112 Spe evs.
Also not to mention the fact that aside from SR, a powerful stone edge from any user, including bulky sandslash can OHKO charizard.
However, I DO agree that charizard can be a tough competition for typhlosion, but since charizard's weakness to stealth rocks, I believe this set is still viable.

@Orly
I actually rather agree with you, however I think earthquake is still a better choice as it provides better general coverage, I'll add it to the alternative choices, thanks for your suggestion =)
 
Mention Venusaur as a partner. In addition to checking almost all of Typhlosion's major counters, it can also cripple things neither of them can deal with, such as Bulky Arcanine, giving Typhlo an opportunity to set up Howl. Tangrowth can preform this as well, without leaving your Pokemon neutral to Ground moves, so mention him as well.

Also, you need to at least mention your reasoning as to why Typhlo is viable compared to Charizard in your set post. Next to why it's viable compared to Arcanine would be a good place.
 
ShinyAzelf said:
Naughty nature is (+Atk, -SpD)

Adamant nature is (+Atk, -SpA)

Anyways, I tested this set with SR and Spikes support, and it does well, eliminating Milotic both times I encountered it. It usually loses to Scarfed revenge killers but otherwise, this set is pretty good.
Click to expand...
It was a typo. Thanks for catching that.
 
this was a tough decision, but I'm going to have to reject this. I was kind of on the fence with this one, as this is a set that Typhlosion could possibly run, but it's not that good of a set...

at the end of the day it's just too weak and still doesn't beat what it's trying to beat solidly enough. Physical Typhlosion is just underwhelming, and Specs or Sunny Day Typhlosion can almost equal it in 'surprise' value, as they can 2HKO Milo as well without needing to take a (full-powered) hit. Howl can be added to OC in the on-site analysis though, as it's not a bad set by any means, just not quite good enough.

Nice concept though, especially good since these were like your first posts. Still,

QC REJECTED 1/2
 
I share the same feelings as uragg. This set isn't terrible, but there are many sets that do this job better I'd say. This guy, for example, does not beat Milotic on its own, as it can just recover stall LO recovery and eventually Surf or just Haze you; Slowbro beats you in an even more sound way and Slowking will have a shot at winning it it gets lucky with paras. I really think a set which's main selling point is weakening Water-types is too specialized, and this guy doesn't always accomplish that. Sorry.

QC REJECTED 2/2
 
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