XY NU Unorthodox Rain Team, currently 47th on ladder

[smith&wessonlesson]

Hey everyone, lots of people are running rain in NU right now so I decided to give it a shot. Previously most of my NU experience came with a stall/hazards team, so this is really different for me and more fun due to the higher pace. I know I'm not using Kabutops, maybe he would fit, but this team has gotten me to 47th on the ladder right now (screenshot included). The idea is to have a lot of power as well as versatility in regards to playstyle, so that I can set up some hazards or wall a bit if necessary. Let me know what you think.

For some reason the image insert is working so http://imgur.com/9QEjVF5

dj hi tek (Volbeat) (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Rain Dance
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass

This is my lead 99 times out of 100. I used this set a lot in 5th gen NU, and it's really terrifying if played correctly. Rain Dance almost always first turn, except possibly against Liepard, which is faster and also has Prankster, so sometimes I go for a preemptive Encore in hopes he'll use some status move. But the idea is to get rain up, use Encore against SR/TSpikes/status/etc, use Tail Glow on the switch after Encore, and pass the boost to something that can come in. The key to using dj hi tek correctly, like any Pokemon, is prediction: don't put rain up if you know you're gonna have to stay in for a few turns, don't set up Tail Glow against an Encore-trapped boosting Pokemon unless you can definitely KO it before Encore ends/it attacks, etc. Takes some practice getting used to, but devastating if used correctly. Guaranteed 7-turn rain any time it comes in is amazing. A lot of the time you'll want to set up rain, let it die, and bring something else in, though it usually isn't worth it to sacrifice dj hi tek on the first or second turn. If I suspect a OHKO move, I switch, but it can sponge a lot of fire attacks under rain. Also takes fighting moves really well. Can counter Trick leads if they don't switch, as I'll go first put down rain, get tricked, and use Encore to force them to trick my Damp Rock back. In general Prankster Encore is just really good as no Poke can really set up for fear of me switching in and using Encore.


trip frog (Poliwrath) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Brick Break
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch

This guy plays Kabutops' role, the physical rain sweeper. Really excellent for coming in on stuff that can't do a lot of damage/threaten with paralysis or burn. Belly Drum + rain is gg if they lack powerful priority or a really sturdy Pokemon with paralysis, and this guy gets 3 or 4 kills in as many turns sometimes. Not nearly as useful without rain up, but can scare Liepard away. I really need him for Cryogonal, as Freeze Dry wrecks my team unless I have rain up and Cryogonal is weak enough to OHKO. It even 2HKOs my "special wall." But anyway Poliwrath pairs really well with Taunt Electrode to come in on random walls. Coverage is very good and Ice Punch is spammable after boosting when they have stuff like Water Absorb Seismitoad and/or ghost types. Under rain, a lot of players will just switch around to resists and try to predict your next move to stall it out, so coverage is a must. I like it over Kabutops because of the stronger win condition and how good of an offensive type fighting is. Jolly because Belly Drum makes Adamant useless.


why am i using dis (Electrode) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Foul Play
- Taunt

At first I just wanted to add something else for Volbeat to pass to, but this guy has turned out to be a really nice addition. Foul Play hits Mespirit, Zangoose, Feraligatr, etc nicely, and Aftermath is really good for weakening threatening physical sweepers that I can then revenge kill under rain. Super fast 7-turn rain setup is just great to have. Taunt is really useful against random walls / to keep the game offensive, as I oftentimes want certain Pokemon to die so others can come in and take advantage of rain while it's still up. Overall just a really good set-up-rain-and-die Pokemon, with Taunt, Aftermath, and its speed. Open to suggestions to replace Foul Play.


ganja (Ludicolo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed

Pretty standard rain sweeper. I went with Leftovers and Leech Seed because a lot of players play really defensively when facing this guy under rain, and Life Orb can really ruin my sweep if the opponent is successful in switching around and taking resisted hits for a few turns. I almost never use Leech Seed except when the opponent is down to one Pokemon. I like the accuracy of Scald as well as how hard it is to switch into, and if I get passed Tail Glow, the power drop from Surf is really not noticeable.


lava lamp head (Tentacool) @ Eviolite
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Toxic

Probably the most controversial member of my team. I originally used it as a special wall who could take advantage of rain as well as wall opposing Ludicolo / special rain sweepers in general. Ended up going with Liquid Ooze over Rain Dish because Rain Dish is not that useful and I come in on Giga Drain/Leech Seed all the time. TSpikes works really well with rain to wear stuff down, and Rapid Spin is just good to have in case I need it. I think Defog Mantine would also work well here, which is what I used in 5th gen (but as a sweeper/Ludicolo counter). But Tentacool's main function is to just come in on random special attacks, especially those powered by rain, and use Toxic or TSpikes. One thing I hate is that it can't come in on Cryogonal.


trip toad (Seismitoad) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rain Dance
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

This is what I use to take a physical hit or two when necessary as well as slow down opposing physical rain sweepers. Water Absorb is really unexpected under rain and often makes opponents waste a turn or two. Good type synergy with Tentacool who doesn't really care about special grass moves, as well as Volbeat for physical grass moves. Rain Dance is usually used in last-ditch situations, as I don't have Damp Rock. SR again can really help with sweeping and gives me something to do against teams that I can't run through yet. I also end up passing this guy Tail Glows fairly often, as he's really easy to bring in. Overall just a really good Pokemon in NU who lets me take a hit or two when I need.



Most games play out with me trying to set up either Poliwrath or Ludicolo, and using Tentacool/Seismitoad to help that happen. Encore Volbeat + Taunt Electrode really help set up rain and make it easier for the sweepers to come in. Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[I Am Doz]

Not a rate, but I played against this team a couple of days ago, and it beat me convincingly after you got the Belly drum on Poliwrath, though it was Electrode who sealed the win. So good team!!!=

To rate now, I would probably drop Tentacool, even with eviolite it is frail and doesn't add too much to the team , I would suggest Mantine maybe as a replacement as it is bulkier, can also remove hazards and would fit the team better

 

[Brawlfest]

Hi there, this isn't a bad team per se, but can be improved. The team overall has the basic foundation to be a good Rain Offense team, but in my opinion wastes turns with pokemon such as Tentacool and defensive Seismitoad, who essentially lose a lot of offensive pressure for you and don't help you take advantage of your precious rain turns, potentially losing you a game. Psychic types also pressure you a lot, which I do worry about. Never should rain try to go defensive, but instead it should aim to end matches as swiftly as possible with sheer offensive pressure. This said, this has the potential to be an ok team, and there are just a couple of issues that need to be dealt with.

You should definitely run Rain Dance Liepard over Volbeat. Volbeat's biggest issue is that in reality, Tail Glow + Baton Pass is a complete waste of rain turns, and with Volbeat's sad bulk it is more than likely you will not get it off, and especially with frail pokemon you try to pass to it is even more unsafe. Volbeat also lacks any way to attack, not only giving the opponent a free switch, but also potentially losing the game if it becomes "last pokemon standing". Instead, Liepard similarly has a Prankster Encore and Rain Dance, but also U-Turn to bring sweepers in safely and consistently, as well as having great offensive pressure in Knock Off to remove items as well as relieve your pressure from Psychics, which currently can run through you given good conditions.

As I've stated, Tentacool hurts this team more than it helps. It wastes rain turns, wastes momentum, and overall loses offensive pressure for rain teams, allowing for set up as well as free switches. Instead, I reccomend you to run Offensive Qwilfish. Your team lacks any physical offense whatsoever outside of Poliwrath, and Qwilfish still has amazing synergy on your team to cover fighting and grass types, but more importantly brings amazing firepower and speed to break through checks to rain teams and safely bring in the likes of Poliwrath and Ludicolo for the sweeps. Its access to Swords Dance and Explosion under rain makes it an amazingly strong wallbreaker, easily punching holes or finishing a game.

Minor Changes:
Ludicolo: Never run Leftovers or Leech Seed on Ludicolo in the rain. Its only objective is to get in and hit as hard as possible with the 8 rain turns that it does have. As a result its moveset should be Rain Dance | Hydro Pump | Giga Drain | Ice Beam with a Life Orb.
Seismitoad: Again, a defensive Seismitoad wastes a rain team's time, which only has so many turns of its home weather to use. Seismitoad really needs to bring power to threaten early leads, and with a defensive set is unable to take advantage of rain to the full extent. Run its normal Swift Swim Stealth Rock set, with the moveset of Hydro Pump | Earth Power | Stealth Rock | Sludge Bomb or Rain Dance, with either a Life Orb or Damp Rock. The EV spread of course is 252 SAtk, 252 Spd, 4 Def.

Again just to remind you, never should rain attempt to run defensive sets, as they in the majority of cases lose momentum and offensive pressure, losing games.
Hope this helped!
______________

Liepard @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rain Dance
- Knock Off
- Encore
- U-turn

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance
- Explosion / Destiny Bond

 

[smith&wessonlesson]

How does U-Turn bring in sweepers safely when Liepard is so fast? If you're talking about using U-Turn on the same turn the opponent switches, Volbeat can do the same thing with Baton Pass (although I guess without doing any damage).

And I see what you mean and agree to some extent about rain being an ultimately offensive playstyle, but sometimes the opponent just has too many Pokemon that will be able to switch in too many times and stall out rain, and I need to wear them down. (This might be a chicken-or-egg thing where I perceive the need to hold off on sweeping because I just don't have enough pressure.) That's part of why I have three rain-setters - so I can withdraw and wait until I've worn them down a little before going all-out.

I know that there's an established way to play with rain and that I don't really follow it, but I disagree with the ideas that the only viable Ludicolo rain set is the one you mention, and that a rain team cannot both have defensive Pokemon and be successful. IMO for this team the offensive pressure is there because rain is up and I could switch in or boost any turn, so the opponent brings out defensive Pokes, which gives me a chance to set up hazards or something. Seismitoad also bluffs an offensive set like the one you describe very easily, which can work to my advantage. I've tried the Ludicolo set you mention, I know it's standard, but Life Orb just makes it die too fast and makes it too vulnerable to Sucker Punch, coming in on hazards, and other minor damage it has to take over the course of the game, in my opinion. If I come in on SR or Spikes, do less than 50% two or three times guessing wrong as the opponent shuffles their Pokemon, then get Sucker Punched after he sacrifices something, I just lost my most potent sweeper. Leftovers helps me stay in and apply pressure for more turns, and reduces the importance of guessing whether Seismitoad or Dragalge or whatever is going to come in next, as with LO not only am I wasting rain turns, but also HP. With Lefties, if I guess wrong a few times and rain runs out, I still have a near-100% HP Ludicolo to just bring in again later. Leech Seed I can understand not being viable but I really think Lefties can work. I guess maybe it wouldn't have to take that type of damage if I ran even more pressure.

Most of my past teams have been stall-oriented, and my instinct is still to have a physical and a special wall as well as some hazards. This has led to this strange rain team, which you seem to think is somewhere between bad and OK but has been one of the most successful teams I've ever built. Again I know it's not standard but that's part of the fun of teambuilding, making weird stuff work. I feel like a lot of what you said is just "this is not standard, use the standard sets."

That being said, I like both of the Pokemon you suggested. But why HP and not Attack on Liepard, if one of the main ideas is to add more offensive pressure? And again my instinct is to try to slap TSpikes on Qwilfish, although that forfeits vital coverage. I also am a little unsure of how many possibilities Qwilfish will find to boost, and it's also especially frail compared to Wrath/Ludicolo. Liepard seems to be worth a shot but using such a specialized set on such an obscure Pokemon (with such a fitting nickname) is half the fun of running this team. Volbeat also really helps with omnipresent fighting types, although I guess Qwilfish would mitigate that to some degree, but without Intimidate and no investment idk if it could stand up to Sawk/Hariyama/Gurdurr the way Volbeat can.

 

[Brawlfest]

How does U-Turn bring in sweepers safely when Liepard is so fast? If you're talking about using U-Turn on the same turn the opponent switches, Volbeat can do the same thing with Baton Pass (although I guess without doing any damage). And I see what you mean and agree to some extent about rain being an ultimately offensive playstyle, but sometimes the opponent just has too many Pokemon that will be able to switch in too many times and stall out rain, and I need to wear them down. (This might be a chicken-or-egg thing where I perceive the need to hold off on sweeping because I just don't have enough pressure.) That's part of why I have three rain-setters - so I can withdraw and wait until I've worn them down a little before going all-out. I know that there's an established way to play with rain and that I don't really follow it, but I disagree with the ideas that the only viable Ludicolo rain set is the one you mention, and that a rain team cannot both have defensive Pokemon and be successful. IMO for this team the offensive pressure is there because rain is up and I could switch in or boost any turn, so the opponent brings out defensive Pokes, which gives me a chance to set up hazards or something. Seismitoad also bluffs an offensive set like the one you describe very easily, which can work to my advantage. I've tried the Ludicolo set you mention, I know it's standard, but Life Orb just makes it die too fast and makes it too vulnerable to Sucker Punch, coming in on hazards, and other minor damage it has to take over the course of the game, in my opinion. I guess maybe it wouldn't have to take that type of damage if I ran even more pressure. Most of my past teams have been stall-oriented, and my instinct is still to have a physical and a special wall as well as some hazards. This has led to this strange rain team, which you seem to think is somewhere between bad and OK but has been one of the most successful teams I've ever built. Again I know it's not standard but that's part of the fun of teambuilding, making weird stuff work. I feel like a lot of what you said is just "this is not standard, use the standard sets."

That being said, I like both of the Pokemon you suggested. But why HP and not Attack on Liepard, if one of the main ideas is to add more offensive pressure? And again my instinct is to try to slap TSpikes on Qwilfish, although that forfeits vital coverage. I also am a little unsure of how many possibilities Qwilfish will find to boost, and it's also especially frail compared to Wrath/Ludicolo. Liepard seems to be worth a shot but using such a specialized set on such an obscure Pokemon (with such a fitting nickname) is half the fun of running this team.

To start of with, Rain checks are worn down again and again by common sweepers which is the advantage of rain. A single check on the opponent's team such as Roselia won't check more than two of your sweepers, letting others put in work. In terms of Liepard, HP or Attack is your choice, I prefer HP to set up multiple times. In terms of the bringing pokemon in safely, it does the same as Volbeat's Baton Pass, but its key advantage is in typing and Knock Off to help support your team.

Qwilfish is not at all frail, and especially due to its amazing typing which makes it resist Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, and Water, letting it set up easily on nearly half the tier. ALso, the majority of the time you really don't need to set up. On the other hand with the Volbeat example, you physically aren't capable of setting up, and are completely shut down by taunt, strong attackers, etc.

On the note of creativity, there is a fine line between it and viability. The problem that we nowadays see with newcomers running rain is that they run too much bulk and too little offensive presence, making it incredibly difficult to take advantage of what they were building around. The reason "weather stall" is viable in OU and Ubers is only because of hte existance of automatic weather starters. In general, if weather is run at all in NU, it needs to aim for hitting hard and fast, giving the opponent little breathing room between insanely fast pokemon and strong boosted attacks. :]

 

[Brawlfest]

The use of the words "we" and "newcomer" as well as "not bad per se" and "could be OK" comes off as kind of condescending to me. I put a lot of work into this and didn't expect to be talked down to like this. The problem with this forum is no one really comments except the PokePolice, the insular inner circle, to enforce all the standard sets and tell you you suck. But I guess the point is to put your team out there for constructive criticism. My (diagnosed a few years ago as AvPD) personality may not be the best fit for the Smogon forums. As someone who mainly plays Showdown alone, it's discouraging. I really appreciate the help and the analysis, though. Sorry for mixing up too many feelings in one post. Thanks.

By no means do I ever want to be mean, hostile, or condescending to you. I fully respect every player, so if I appear to be speaking "on a high horse" I sincerely apologize. Furthermore, I by no means want to further Avoidant Personality Disorder, and do strive to make every member feel welcome to smogon and more importantly NU. This said, the reason why I make rates at all is purely to help people out, and am not at all aiming to put you down.
I realize the time and effort of every player in their RMTs. We all start somewhere. My first two RMTs took so much out of me, and I got trashed on just the same because frankly, they were terrible and unviable. Simply put, I am not at all trying to enforce standard sets. In fact, in NU we strive for creativity, and in our forums we actually have entire threads dedicated to creative sets. However, I again come back to the argument of viability vs. creativity. For example, creative might be running Solarbeam + Power Herb on Camerupt to bait out a Seismitoad. However, viability comes into question when someone runs Curse or Amnesia on it, due to it frankly not being a good bulky set up user, lacking a way to heal or rid status, etc.
Your team from the start was not unviable. However, there were in fact small issues that made it incapable of achieving its full potential, mostly in offensive presence. If you need any more explanation as to why it is currently not practical to run rain teams in tangent with a bulky or defensive team, there are a few reasons. To start off with, defensive pokemon do not quite abuse rain, as they find little need of Swift Swim or powered up attacks, and as a result are using up critical turns trying to set it up. Defensive pokemon are also somewhat hindered by rain, as it help to benefit certain pokemon such as Dry Skin Jynx or Hurricane Swanna, which Defensive pokemon really don't want to deal with buffed. Instead, Offensive Rain Teams maximize efficiency in what can be considered a 8-turn playstyle. I hope you understand that we are simply here to help, and we in fact love to foster creativity.

Sorry if I came off as rude in any way, and I encourage you to continue in NU.