Announcement UU Suspect Process Round 16 - NP: Stateside [Weavile remains UU]

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Lyssa

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(me when I land a triple axel)​

Though surprisingly tamer than a lot of people first expected it to be, weavile has been a controversial element in UU from the moment it dropped till now, and it's not hard to see why when taking into account that it's the fastest pokémon commonly used in the tier, with access to perhaps both the best dark and ice type moves of all time. So why has taken it so long to feel over the line?

The answer is UU is surprisingly finely equipped to deal with weavile.. in the short term. We have a variety of pretty decent switch-ins between tinkaton (which is also able to steal it's boots with pickpocket!), skarmory, fezandipiti, as well as more nicher ones such as cobalion or talonflame, but none of these mons are really capable of answering it the long run, as accumulating damage on them or getting a favourable position is not too hard, especially thanks to how great hazards are in the current metagame, as with the rise of sinistcha it's really difficult to remove them. Aside from defensive answers, we have a good number of priority users as well as offensive checks that are to be thanked for keeping the ship from drowning thus far. conkeldurr, scizor, lokix, gardevoir and more are excellent at avoiding weavile from outright ending games sometimes after a swords dance, but they don't really swap into the mon very well as well as can be dealt with, be it with the right tera or priority range.

There is also another facet to weavile, and that is non-standard sets. They're overall considered more dangerous and a lot closer to outright broken but the balancing factor is each one of those comes with opportunity cost or very specific teambuilding, taking tera blast sets (fire, electric) or beat up(specific teammates)/life orb(really only sustainable for HO builds) or adamant(being slower than latios and thundurus-i) as examples.

Basically, to most people weavile isn't really outright broken, but playing against it is a race against time as answering it longterms is next to impossible, and that as well as the hefty restrictions it puts on teambuilding were enough to both get it a decently high score on the survey from a couple months ago, as well as being an unanimous vote for a suspect test within council. How do you feel about weavile? Have you felt a similar way yourself? Let us know your thoughts down below!

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played UU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter HERE! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, vivalospride , or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/vivalospride or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900. The deadline for getting requirements will be Friday, April 17th at 11:59pm GMT-4, this is going to be a shorter test than usual as we want to have a verdict before the r1 of WCoP qualifiers begins, please take note of this. GLHF everyone!
 
Decidueye409 said:
Yall suspected it before, and it didn’t get banned. Why are y’all suspecting it again?
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Largely, if I were to guess, it was 2 years ago give or take since it was last tested.

For example:
With that said, Weavile has issues, and major ones at that. The bulk is fine but not stellar; if Snow isn't up, expect any strong super effective hit to KO Weavile on the spot. It's also not super difficult to fit useable defensive checks on teams; Flame Body Heatran, Cobalion, Quaquaval, Tinkaton, Okidogi and Scizor,
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Of these Pokemon listed as Weavile checks, Heatran is OU now, Cobalion is far less relevant, Quaq and Dogi got banned. Other things have happened in that time that affect Weavile favorably, some of course not as much.

Also, it's a notably controversial Pokemon in the tier from my lurkings around.
 
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got recs
I ran banded weavile with tera dark and if they didnt have a cobalion then the shit was unwallable, 2shots skarm tinkaton gets worn down with ease etc etc. it just feels far too powerful in comparison with the defensive tools the tier has, while its offensive counterplay is good but not stellar. that being said, im keen to hear more from both sides of the arugment and havent made up my mind yet, but i am leaning towards ban at the current moment
 
its-been84years-titanic.gif

..since I did a suspect test.
Too lazy to write too much things but I tend to dislike Weavile. While I don't think it's overpowered, the fast Knock Off it provides is really annoying imo in the current state of the meta. Its speedtier allows it to threaten revenge kill quite easily on key threats which leads it to secure many Koff on opponent's foes and this leads in the long run to be a nuisance. I feel like Entry Hazards have been bs during most of SV metas and it's still the case rn. Weavile helps those kind of teams to thrive. This is the main reason which is leading me to thinking of voting ban for Weavile. This may be a good or a bad reason to ban it, eh I don't really care, that's my thoughts.
 
To be honest, I struggle to see Weavile as broken in the current meta. The average team isn't really slow enough for it to go crazy in 100+ turn games and the slower playstyles will usually figure out ways to shut it down even if it requires some kind of investment like slotting a somewhat less common mon like Toxapex or investing into a bulky Tera Steel mon.

Currently, Weavile excels at revenge-killing Latios and Thundurus, but outside of those its switch-in opportunities aren't exactly free. Most BO and balance teams are filled with bulky threats that give it no chance like Conkeldurr, Scizor, Keldeo and even stuff like Metagross or Excadrill require quite a bit of chip to threaten. Defensive mons like Rotom-Wash, Fezandipiti and Tinkaton can also switch in once and are obviously horrible to switch into. So while Weavile can definitely switch in on like Latios, Thundurus, Slowking and a few others and start doing work, I'd say its switch-in opportunities against more balanced styles are limited to the point where it's very unlikely to do particularly well against them unless the game drags on.

It's also not that good against hyper offensive teams, there really is not that much Ice-weak stuff besides Thundurus and Iron Jugulis which you can RK with Ice Shard. However, much more importantly, you have no time to setup and you're forced to deal with some really hard matchups like Revavroom or Bisharp while stuff like Scizor or Conkeldurr is as good on HO as on BO and Weavile struggles with both Weather-boosted threats and Screens.

By far Weavile's best matchup is against defensive teams which do have to prep for it specifically and even then it can still break through them with good play and the right set. That being said, I don't think Stall having to adapt by running Toxapex or some bulky Tera Steels is so bad. +2 Knock against targets that have lost their items is kinda wimpy actually, so if you can keep hazards somewhat in check, it can be quite playable with some good Ice resist.

On the other hand, I think losing Weavile leads to Latios and Thundurus-T becoming generally harder to handle. Weavile being a very straightforward revenge-killer for two of the most threatening mons in the tier is great considering they aren't too vulnerable to things like Conkeldurr Mach Punch or Scizor Bullet Punch. On the other hand, Weavile can be revenge-killed by those moves much more easily, so you've got more options against it. Other fast options like Gren and Thundy-I are much less versatile and easy to slot than Weavile and adding speed control to teams would get more awkward.

I also do think a good Knock Off user is quite nice to have in the tier. Item removal is about as important as Rocks are to me as a way to make progress and, throughout the tier's lifespan, we've already banned several good users of the moves like Hoopa-U, Zarude or Okidogi. While I wouldn't say it's rare currently, I also think some mons like Metagross, Conkeldurr and Scizor can get forced into running it when they might prefer other moves. The tier also has several ways to absorb Knock fairly well right now, the best ones being Skarmory or Pickpocket Tinkaton. Mandibuzz is also the best its ever been as a hazard removal option and Talonflame is settling into the tier as a niche Defog option. All that to say, I don't think item removal is that hard to deal with right now, but I also think it's important enough that limiting options for it is actually kind of a bad thing.

I've mostly been talking about Boots SD this post because that's the most common one, but I guess I can spare a moment for CB, Beat Up and Tera Blast. Both CB and Beat Up require a much more specific structure (either with extremely good removal or high attack mons) to be used for a... marginally better reward. You deal with some checks like Skarmory or Rotom-Wash better, but hard checks like Tinkaton or Cobalion are still gonna be mostly fine, all the while you have to deal with either hazards or keeping your team healthy for Beat Up's damage output. Meanwhile, Tera Blast is just incredibly inconsistent since you won't always want to sink your Tera into it and it's not like you get through all of your answers with it. You also lose out on Tera Ice or Dark which can be very important to secure kills.

Overall I don't think Weavile is so strong to the point of being banworthy. Other banned mons like Zarude, Ogerpon-C, Okidogi and Hoopa-U were tearing teams apart in tournament games on a regular basis, but Weavile, while obviously capable of winning, really doesn't feel like it's been pulling off anything that crazy. I think we're also well beyond the point of arguments like "In theory, Tera Blast can go crazy" because the meta is in a really stable state and Weavile has been part of it for long enough that if those sets were more than an occasionnal gimmick, their usage would be higher.
 
after getting reqs i don't really find weavile to be unmanageable or broken in this current meta. the main appeal of having weavile on your team is an easy to slot in, premier wallbreaker + knock off user with an amazing speed tier for revenge killing- a great mon on paper, but in practice theres many situations where it feels like it doesn't carry nearly enough weight to be considered "broken".

weavile thrives in this meta primarily as its the best offensive knock off user and ability to remove boots on the other team. with hazard setting being prominent & there being only 3-4 removal options in the tier, weavile is the greatest abuser of this hazard abusing meta. its also the best stallbreaker/wallbreaker in the tier, great vs stall and fatter builds while also being a great revenge killer of latios/thundurus (the two other best offensive pokemon in the tier imo).

however, its also held back by the meta at the same time. with it trending towards an offense-dominated meta, weavile doesnt have much room to get in for free vs a lot of builds now. weavile finds itself having shit matchups against hyper offense / sun teams which are both increasingly prominent in this meta. its weak defensive typing & stats also make finding an oppurtunity to switch into weavile far and few in between. there's not many slow pivot options in this tier, so it it is a pain trying to fit something in sometimes. it also does not feel good to play it with its different sets aside from sd boots. i find tera blast to be quite gimmicky and using choice band requires a very specific type of play with removal which makes it feel too one dimensional. in many fatter builds, it is quite heavily walled out by skarm over the course of a game and you can't really dent mons like conk/keld/cobal/tink (fuck pickpocket). additionally, theres a lot in this tier that can take one hit from weavile and ohko it back, so you really need to be precise about when you want to bring it in, so a lot of the time it doesnt get much use till late-game scenarios.

tldr; while it still is the best pokemon in UU, i disagree with the sentiment to ban weavile as it has its shortcomings & many offensive checks that don't push it to being broken
 
I can't really say that Weavile is the best Pokémon in the tier, it is easy to handle, at least that's what I see.
It needs hazard stack, because you're fast but you have no setup opportunities and that's unfortunate when you're weak to all hazards and 120 attack is worse than many think with somewhat unreliable moves. It has NO consistently reliable moves Knock Off can be good but it struggles to KO many things, and it's pathetic on itemless mons. I can't even call it a wallbreaker this Triple Axel is too inconsistent and nearly any wall can handle it with Rocky Helmet.

It has so many bad matchups. Rocky Helmet Skarmory, Keldeo, Scizor, Tinkaton...these are just some of the most notable. Also note how it gets OHKOd by itemless Sciz and Lokix BP/FI.

Ice Shard is terribly weak, a 40 power move on a Pokémon with 120 Attack, "forced on boots", and no setup opportunity...yeah, good idea. It does not solve its absurd weakness to priority.

Should I say more about it's bulk? Against the myriad of things it struggles to KO, it will often get OHKOd back. It's like...the least bulky Pokémon in the tier, at least with that typing.

Not broken I would say. It's maybe not strong enough for a ban. It does have a strong (OFFENSIVE) typing against many threats...but certainly not all. So yes, I agree with the points of those who weren't looking for a ban. We don't have many Ice types, I think this should stay.
 
got reqs with the emperor aka tentacruel who is the goat (put him back in c-rank hes actually nice for being a spinner that beats dirge and tcha)
:tentacruel::weavile::sinistcha-masterpiece::sandy-shocks::tinkaton::latios: <--- click for team (kinda mid honestly but had fun with it and it works)
I think SD weavile is balanced because it needs a turn to break consistently and is more annoyed by helmet users than what I actually think the problem set to be, which is banded.
Banded 2hkos everything in the meta that isn't tinkaton, can knock on every team with skarmory for the most obvious helmet removal and then you destroy it with triple axel the second time it comes in. you destroy cobalion with low kick on switch who is an ru mon that is just uu because of this mon. this mon is absolutely stupid with support and if you can spin reliably with banded you just win (hint hint tentacruel). makes balance really hell to build here. it has offensive checks that others in the thread have said, but lacks any really sort of true defensive counterplay
i am voting to ban this
 
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Got reqs a few days ago , although i didn't face weavile a lot while getting reqs, I've been laddering for a while and from my experience, I strongly feel that weavile needs to be banned.

It's relatively easy to force gamestates where its usual defensive counterplay is beatable over the course of a game using offensive bombardment from its teammates.

It lacks switch in opportunities on paper but with offensive threat from its teammates, it can enter via double switches or pivoting, and even while not dealing damage, it makes a lot of progress against its extremely limited pool of checks via knock off.

It just needs the standard SD knock , ael, ice shard set to pose enough of a threat on the builder.
Tinkaton looks like a good check but it lacks longevity and is needed for teams to check latios who is commonly paired with weavile, the pressure exerted by both can finish it off over time, pex is decent and has longevity but weavile can remove its boots first time and hazard stack with offwnsive pressure can chip it down easily, plus it doesn't fit on most team styles. Skarmory after losing its helmet is on life support trying to switch into weavile's axel.
Azumarill and keldeo aren't bulky and hate losing their items a lot more than the previous ones, talonflame overrelies on flame body to the point of inconsistency.
Scizor and conk are not safe switches.
And all of shis is made worse depend with pairing with slowking's futuresight

And all of these guys have very easy counterplay which weavile can fall back on after removing their items and throuch the course of a game, weavile can continuously force hazard damage and chip sufficient to put these checks in its own range or for a teammate to cleanup.

Weavile does this without possessing any defensive utility And having a speed tier that obliterates offense.
As a result, I'm inclined to vite BAN
 
Got recs


It’s obviously a very strong mon and it almost always forces at least one dedicated check in the builder, but I think the whole “no consistent long-term answers” argument is a bit overstated



If you look at Latios, which is one of the most consistent and versatile mons in the tier, it’s honestly a similar or even worse case. Latios has way more flexibility with sets like CM, Specs, Weakness Policy and bulky setup variants, and on top of that it has reliable recovery, which makes it much harder to wear down over the course of a game



Weavile on the other hand is way more limited in practice. It basically sticks to three sets:



Boots SD



Choice Band



Life Orb





Yeah, you can run stuff like Tera Blast (Fire or Electric) to hit things like Toxapex, Skarmory or Keldeo, but that always comes with a real trade-off. Most of the time you’re dropping Ice Shard for it, which makes Weavile a lot more vulnerable to revenge killing from common scarfers like Gardevoir and Galarian Zapdos, matchups it could otherwise handle at +2



Another thing is that Weavile teams are usually forced into hazard-stacking structures, which naturally struggle vs faster-paced offense. Because of how frail it is, Weavile doesn’t get that many safe setup opportunities, and it’s also checked by a lot of common priority like Vacuum Wave, First Impression and Mach Punch



So while it’s true that Weavile doesn’t really have perfect defensive answers, that’s not something unique to it at all. Latios itself doesn’t have consistent long-term answers either, and arguably gets away with it even more because of its recovery and better set diversity



Overall, I think Weavile has pretty clear limitations both in the builder and in-game, especially vs offensive teams. It’s definitely a top-tier threat, but not to the point where it feels overwhelming or unhealthy for the tier



For these reasons, I believe Weavile doesn't need to be banned
 
Weavile Suspect - BAN vs NO BAN (SV UU)
​
Arguments for BAN
  • Offensive pressure
Weavile exerts immense pressure on offensive teams thanks to its elite Speed tier and strong dual STAB combination. It outspeeds most of the unboosted metagame thanks to Triple Axel and can pick off faster threats with Ice Shard, making it extremely difficult to handle once faster Pokémon are weakened. Against offense in particular, even minimal chip damage can put teams in a position where Weavile becomes nearly impossible to stop.​
  • Knock Off with STAB​
Knock Off is arguably Weavile’s most problematic tool. By removing Heavy-Duty Boots and other key items, it steadily breaks down defensive counterplay and amplifies hazard pressure. Even when it isn’t sweeping outright, Weavile often guarantees progress simply by forcing switches and stripping items, which can make it feel oppressive over the course of a game.​
  • Swords Dance​
With Swords Dance, Weavile can quickly spiral out of control: - It threatens OHKOs or 2HKOs on most of the tier - Its coverage is extremely hard to wall -Ice Shard lets it bypass revenge killing attempts. Because of this, many so-called “checks” fail to reliably stop it after a boost, turning it into a dangerous late-game cleaner.​
  • Matchup polarization​
Weavile tends to amplify matchup dynamics: - Extremely strong into offense - Noticeably worse into bulky balance
This creates a “matchup fish” effect, where games can feel heavily decided at team preview. If a team lacks solid answers, Weavile can run through it; if it has them, Weavile may accomplish very little.
Such polarization is often considered unhealthy for a metagame.


Arguments for NO BAN
  • Extreme frailty
Weavile is one of the frailest top-tier threats in the tier. It struggles to switch into attacks and often requires careful positioning or pivot support just to enter the field safely. As a result, it is highly punishing to use and leaves little room for error.
  • Defensive counterplay​
Rocky Helmet punishes its contact-based moves. This often forces Weavile to run Heavy-Duty Boots, which significantly reduces its damage output compared to Choice Band sets.

Conclusion​
Weavile pushes offensive pressure and can feel overwhelming in specific matchups, but it does not consistently invalidate counterplay or teambuilding. Its flaws—frailty, indirect damage weakness, and reliance on correct play—are significant enough to keep it balanced within the tier. While it can dominate offensive teams, its performance against bulkier structures is far less reliable. This inconsistency prevents it from being a truly centralizing or overwhelming force across the entire metagame. For this reasons Weavile still interactable and manageable.
Weavile’s combination of Speed, Knock Off utility, and Swords Dance sweeping potential makes it excessively punishing for all teams, creating unhealthy matchup polarization and limiting counterplay—justifying a BAN.​
Final decision: BAN​
 
Will be brief. Only have seen like 3 or 4 Weaviles in 36 games. My team didn,t have a dedicated counter to Weavile, yet I didn,t lose once to it. Checking the VR and some niche Mons out of it, I see more than enough defensive and offensive counterplay to Weavile, voting Do Not Ban as a result. The Mon should be OU by usage, but thats another story, what is judged here is whether its broken in UU or not, in my opinion its not.
 
Got Recs :)

As of now I'm leaning towards Do Not Ban. Standard Weavile sets are not a problem to me. Defensive checks are pretty reasonable to me. Skarm Tink and Fez if you wanna count it all do decently into it and some less popular mons like Pex, Cobal, and Belli all exist too. Weav can struggle against most of our Priority and speed control mons. Non of these mons are perfect and can lose to niche sets, but they function well enough and combined with Weav being somewhat hard to swap in and the other option of tera-ing to survive an attack and blowing it up due to it's weak defenses, I feel lt's counterplay is reasonable enough. I also generally like having weavile in the tier for some of the faster threats like lati. I'm still open to switching, but right now I feel Weavile is reasonable in the tier
 
i was planning on making a post on weavile, but not getting reqs. however, since i ended up trying out ideas for uupl on the ladder, i have now acquired reqs. there's no right or wrong reason to vote the way one votes, and usually people cast their votes based on their personal experiences, which involve using or facing on the ladder, the mon inquestion.

there is an argument to be made that while one ladders ~30-40 games in order to get their reqs, they might choose to not use a weavile team, and at the same time the number of times they face a weavile might be very low. i played about 40 games this time around and faced 2-3 weavile teams, if memory serves. that sort of experience isn't very helpful in making one firmly decide on how good weavile is in this tier. if you add to that the tendency of casual ladderers to use teams, with the main purpose of having fun, and therefore not being very well built, one might be able to easily sweep a few mons, or even a whole team with their weavile, only to discover later that the team they were up against lacked one of resists, or speed control, or both.

so what i want to do in this post is to put all of the uupl replays featuring weavile in this place, along with some thoughts. but firstly, why do i think uupl replays showcasing weavile can better gauge how good weavile is, compared to any other replays? that's because uupl is the most prestigious uu related tournament on the site, and generally you'll find there great players playing against other great players. taking a loss in uupl means putting your team at a disadvantage and letting your teammates down, and nobody i know likes doing that. so the teams these players use have at least some level of quality control and the consequences of losing amount to more than "oops, i guess i lost 25 elo". now on to the replays:

UUPL WEEK 1

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-916899 weav didn't come out, the weav team won though
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917039 tera blast elec weav lost, maybe could have won dependind on clicks and set
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917076?p2 boots weav killed a few mons, but lots of luck was involved
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917189 boots weav team won, weav itself didn't do a ton. kinda shut down by talonflame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917197 boots weav team won, weav put a lot of pressure on a team that had 0 weavile defensive answers (shocker, i know).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917645 terrible game to comment on rng wise, weav knocked a tera steel latios and died to draco meteor though
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917752 banded weav does a lot of damage, but it's not very practical cause rocks get it on a timer eventually. keldeo as the sole resist to both stabs, metagross as an ice resist and mandibuzz as a dark resist are enough to beat the weav team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917789 weav was defeated by 6 mons slower than it, and dual stab resist keldeo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917820 banded weav won

UUPL WEEK 2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919036 boots weav only hits the field on turn 22, eventually teras to kill a fezandipity, then gets walled by tera steel madi. weav team loses a similar type of keld apple team we've seen before, even with conk as a partner to attempt overloading common checks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919325 weav never got to hit the field here, since etern timed out. this is a different type of team structure that's popped up, perhaps what we can call a "weavile fat" or semi stall. interesting for sure, mostly speaking to how flexible of a mon weav is, and how many different archetypes it can fit in. it can literally find itself in the one side of the team spectrum (ho), or in the other side of the team spectrum (weav semi stall), and everything in between.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919348 known banded weav team loses to known stall. weav got burned by talon and was basically useless for the remaining of the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919556 boots weav team gets defeated by rocky helmet fez and keldeo, weav team loses.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919623 boots weav team loses, sinistcha gets away with another game. maybe if piyu had brought my tech he'd won, hmm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919681 this weavile, presumably boots, didn't even have a chance to get in against sun, was just foddered

UUPL WEEK 3

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-920627 boots weav fat team loses, albeit the play was suboptimal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921436 extremely rare weav mirror, you'd maybe think that mirror games would be more common. overall terrible game, but the one that didn't get haxed failed to do more than chipping tinkaton (boots variant)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921431 team featuring life orb weav wins a game here. no reason not to flip turn turn 1, as finch himself later said. he got into a very bad spot after that, and eventually hydreigon+weavile killed everything. wouldn't be fair to say that "weav swept that team". however, here's another item weav can hold, and a won game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921559 the same duo of weav(boots this time)+hydrei makes another appearance, facing a HO team, but the opposing conkeldurr turns out to be too much to handle and the weav team loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921814?p2 banded beat up weav wins against HO, finishing off a sinistcha and getting some big damage off on the gyarados
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921846 weavile fat team gets a great matchup and wins. however, weav didn't even come out to play this game, so what we learn from this game is "semi stall can work in sv uu, and weavile can fit in that type of team well"

UUPL WEEK 4

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-922033 this is the 1st team re use in this tour, the same team we finished week 3 with. this time the weav fat goes up against sand, and weav gets to click a few attacks and help the team win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-922588 tera blast weav (of the fire variety this time) helps lolo to prevent scizor from sweeping, but ultimately gets picked up by scarf drei and the game is lost for the weav team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-922916 meru loaded the same duo of weav+drei for another week in a row, this time weav was confirmed to be a tera blast electric variant. however, the tera blaster had to face the goat (nat) and lose to a slower bulkier team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-923175 weav semi stall claims another win, this time against a HO team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-923397 lead sd beat up weav got abused by alolan ninetales, who managed to kill it, set up veil, and prove itself to be the superior lead, instead of ribombee. the weav team lost

UUPL WEEK 5

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-924548 boots weav bo loses to latios fat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-924807 very good example of a drag mag team, which doesn't have a mon to resist both of weav's stabs, is able to successfuly force out weav with a healthy scizor, and eventually win the game. boots weav managed to RK a couple of chipped mons and hit mandi hard for a lot of damage, but it still wasn't devastating to a team of iffy mons when it comes to switch in on its attacks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-924955?p2 boots weav cleaning a game after baiting a tera from slowking and conk didn't preserve its hp. (masterful weavile wielding by spelly c). notice how you need to get several turns right and even some opponent missplay to clean a game with weav, it's not simply click set up and win
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-925096 weav being a sac against a trick room team, weav team loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-925754 interesting weavile mirror. the weav on the voltturn team manages to beat the weav semi stall with the right tera and clicks

now i'll get to the conclusions i draw from these replays, about weavile and the general state of the tier:

weavile hasn't exactly been spammed in this tour. there are 12 sv uu games played each week, and you'll notice i haven't linked 12 replays for each week. its usage peaked during week 1, at 37.5%, and from the 2nd week onwards it's in the 20%-30%. the winrate is not impressive either, if you saw the replays above. you would think that a mon that's broken should have more usage and more wins. well, it doesn't because it's not broken. but the majority of people will agree that it's not. so what's the problem here, why is it being suspected at all?

the answer is, because some people think weavile's "unhealthy" for the tier. until now i purposely avoided using this word myself, because to my knowledge, there's no clear definition of it in the pokemon gaming context. so i'll just use my own definition of the word here, and interpret "unhealthy" as "a mon that its presense limits building so much that the builder feels like they don't have enough options to deal with it when building, while generally loading a good team without many drawbacks." from what i've seen in the replays above, all types of teams have been able to deal with weavile, and most importantly, balance/bo teams have been able to deal with weavile while also having diversity. after all, when these types of teams can do well, that's a sign that the metagame is in a good state. concluding this point, i've seen all types of team structures being able to perform well, without being limited to a significant degree by weavile (balance/bo, sun, hail, even sand sometimes, more "traditional" ho, stall). and that includes all weavile sets, because even if they have specific upsides, they also have plenty of natural counterplay in this tier. in that sense, i'd call weavile a mon that's "healthy" for uu, rather than "unhealthy".

my current thoughts on the tier is that it's the best it's been since i touched it (feb 2024), when garchomp was terrorizing everything and was making players use weird sets to account for it, like balloon azumarill. i currently hear some complaints about weavile and latios, but i think that if you can't deal with them, it's a play/build issue. the tools to deal with them exist in uu, while also allowing for variety in mons used and playstyles. i made my point about how weavile's limited above, but it's worth noting how at the same time it limits latios. switching to your bulky pivot and bringing in weavile to threaten a faster ohko on latios from a mon with the utility of weavile is something massive, and perhaps underappreciated. this is pure speculation on my part, but the downside of banning weavile is the risk of causing more unnecesary cascading bans down the road, with latios first in line.

thanks for reading and do not ban weavile
 
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Petros said:
i was planning on making a post on weavile, but not getting reqs. however, since i ended up trying out ideas for uupl on the ladder, i have now acquired reqs. there's no right or wrong reason to vote the way one votes, and usually people cast their votes based on their personal experiences, which involve using or facing on the ladder, the mon inquestion.

there is an argument to be made that while one ladders ~30-40 games in order to get their reqs, they might choose to not use a weavile team, and at the same time the number of times they face a weavile might be very low. i played about 40 games this time around and faced 2-3 weavile teams, if memory serves. that sort of experience isn't very helpful in making one firmly decide on how good weavile is in this tier. if you add to that the tendency of casual ladderers to use teams, with the main purpose of having fun, and therefore not being very well built, one might be able to easily sweep a few mons, or even a whole team with their weavile, only to discover later that the team they were up against lacked one of resists, or speed control, or both.

so what i want to do in this post is to put all of the uupl replays featuring weavile in this place, along with some thoughts. but firstly, why do i think uupl replays showcasing weavile can better gauge how good weavile is, compared to any other replays? that's because uupl is the most prestigious uu related tournament on the site, and generally you'll find there great players playing against other great players. taking a loss in uupl means putting your team at a disadvantage and letting your teammates down, and nobody i know likes doing that. so the teams these players use have at least some level of quality control and the consequences of losing amount to more than "oops, i guess i lost 25 elo". now on to the replays:

UUPL WEEK 1

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-916899 weav didn't come out, the weav team won though
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917039 tera blast elec weav lost, maybe could have won dependind on clicks and set
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917076?p2 boots weav killed a few mons, but lots of luck was involved
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917189 boots weav team won, weav itself didn't do a ton. kinda shut down by talonflame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917197 boots weav team won, weav put a lot of pressure on a team that had 0 weavile defensive answers (shocker, i know).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917645 terrible game to comment on rng wise, weav knocked a tera steel latios and died to draco meteor though
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917752 banded weav does a lot of damage, but it's not very practical cause rocks get it on a timer eventually. keldeo as the sole resist to both stabs, metagross as an ice resist and mandibuzz as a dark resist are enough to beat the weav team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917789 weav was defeated by 6 mons slower than it, and dual stab resist keldeo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-917820 banded weav won

UUPL WEEK 2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919036 boots weav only hits the field on turn 22, eventually teras to kill a fezandipity, then gets walled by tera steel madi. weav team loses a similar type of keld apple team we've seen before, even with conk as a partner to attempt overloading common checks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919325 weav never got to hit the field here, since etern timed out. this is a different type of team structure that's popped up, perhaps what we can call a "weavile fat" or semi stall. interesting for sure, mostly speaking to how flexible of a mon weav is, and how many different archetypes it can fit in. it can literally find itself in the one side of the team spectrum (ho), or in the other side of the team spectrum (weav semi stall), and everything in between.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919348 known banded weav team loses to known stall. weav got burned by talon and was basically useless for the remaining of the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919556 boots weav team gets defeated by rocky helmet fez and keldeo, weav team loses.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919623 boots weav team loses, sinistcha gets away with another game. maybe if piyu had brought my tech he'd won, hmm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-919681 this weavile, presumably boots, didn't even have a chance to get in against sun, was just foddered

UUPL WEEK 3

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-920627 boots weav fat team loses, albeit the play was suboptimal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921436 extremely rare weav mirror, you'd maybe think that mirror games would be more common. overall terrible game, but the one that didn't get haxed failed to do more than chipping tinkaton (boots variant)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921431 team featuring life orb weav wins a game here. no reason not to flip turn turn 1, as finch himself later said. he got into a very bad spot after that, and eventually hydreigon+weavile killed everything. wouldn't be fair to say that "weav swept that team". however, here's another item weav can hold, and a won game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921559 the same duo of weav(boots this time)+hydrei makes another appearance, facing a HO team, but the opposing conkeldurr turns out to be too much to handle and the weav team loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921814?p2 banded beat up weav wins against HO, finishing off a sinistcha and getting some big damage off on the gyarados
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-921846 weavile fat team gets a great matchup and wins. however, weav didn't even come out to play this game, so what we learn from this game is "semi stall can work in sv uu, and weavile can fit in that type of team well"

UUPL WEEK 4

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-922033 this is the 1st team re use in this tour, the same team we finished week 3 with. this time the weav fat goes up against sand, and weav gets to click a few attacks and help the team win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-922588 tera blast weav (of the fire variety this time) helps lolo to prevent scizor from sweeping, but ultimately gets picked up by scarf drei and the game is lost for the weav team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-922916 meru loaded the same duo of weav+drei for another week in a row, this time weav was confirmed to be a tera blast electric variant. however, the tera blaster had to face the goat (nat) and lose to a slower bulkier team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-923175 weav semi stall claims another win, this time against a HO team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-923397 lead sd beat up weav got abused by alolan ninetales, who managed to kill it, set up veil, and prove itself to be the superior lead, instead of ribombee. the weav team lost

UUPL WEEK 5

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-924548 boots weav bo loses to latios fat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-924807 very good example of a drag mag team, which doesn't have a mon to resist both of weav's stabs, is able to successfuly force out weav with a healthy scizor, and eventually win the game. boots weav managed to RK a couple of chipped mons and hit mandi hard for a lot of damage, but it still wasn't devastating to a team of iffy mons when it comes to switch in on its attacks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-924955?p2 boots weav cleaning a game after baiting a tera from slowking and conk didn't preserve its hp. (masterful weavile wielding by spelly c). notice how you need to get several turns right and even some opponent missplay to clean a game with weav, it's not simply click set up and win
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-925096 weav being a sac against a trick room team, weav team loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-925754 interesting weavile mirror. the weav on the voltturn team manages to beat the weav semi stall with the right tera and clicks

now i'll get to the conclusions i draw from these replays, about weavile and the general state of the tier:

weavile hasn't exactly been spammed in this tour. there are 12 sv uu games played each week, and you'll notice i haven't linked 12 replays for each week. its usage peaked during week 1, at 37.5%, and from the 2nd week onwards it's in the 20%-30%. the winrate is not impressive either, if you saw the replays above. you would think that a mon that's broken should have more usage and more wins. well, it doesn't because it's not broken. but the majority of people will agree that it's not. so what's the problem here, why is being suspected at all?

the answer is, because some people think weavile's "unhealthy" for the tier. until now i purposely avoided using this word myself, because to my knowledge, there's no clear definition of it in the pokemon gaming context. so i'll just use my own definition of the word here, and interpret "unhealthy" as "a mon that its presense limits building so much that the builder feels like they don't have enough options to deal with it when building, while generally loading a good team without many drawbacks." from what i've seen in the replays above, all types of teams have been able to deal with weavile, and most importantly, balance/bo teams have been able to deal with weavile while also having diversity. after all, when these types of teams can do well, that's a sign that the metagame is in a good state. concluding this point, i've seen all types of team structures being able to perform well, without being limited to significant degree by weavile (balance/bo, sun, hail, even sand sometimes, more "traditional" ho, stall). and that includes all weavile sets, because even if they have specific upsides, they also have plenty of natural counterplay in this tier. in that sense, i'd call weavile a mon that's "healthy" for uu, rather than "unhealthy".

my current thoughts on the tier is that it's the best it's been since i touched it (feb 2024), when garchomp was terrorizing everything and was making players use weird sets to account for it, like balloon azumarill. i currently hear some complaints about weavile and latios, but i think that if you can't deal with them, it's a play/build issue. the tools to deal with them exist in uu, while also allowing for variety in mons used and playstyles. i made my point about how weavile's limited above, but it's worth noting how at the same time it limits latios. switching to your bulky pivot and bringing in weavile to threaten a faster ohko on latios from a mon with the utility of weavile is something massive, and perhaps underappreciated. this is pure speculation on my part, but the downside of banning weavile is the risk of causing more unnecesary cascading bans down the road, with latios first in line.

thanks for reading and do not ban weavile
Click to expand...
haven't watched the replays yet, but paragraph 2 and 3 are extremely solid. i agree in the most excessive way

im 100 coil points away from getting reqs without a weavile team, and the number of weaviles i've found in ladder is underwhelming. ladder testing hasn't given me any sort of meaningful experience to conclude if weavile is ban worthy or not...

...other than its lack of centralization and usage makes me think it's not even a problem in the first place.


edit:
just got reqs. leaning towards DO NOT BAN. we ban unhealthy mons. weavile is just a good mon that has enough ways to be dealt with. and doesn't even get used that much.
 
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Just got reqs. I did not build my team with Weavile in mind (it's a team I've been using for months now) and I have never once been scared of a Weavile I've run into. Worst case it clicks sd and trades with a mon or sometimes two. Weavile struggles to set up on anything without losing like 80% of its health and is usually forced to run boots to not die immediately, which severely limits its power. I haven't yet seen Balance teams using Weavile but at least on HO it's just another setup sweeper. It's not really even special in that front. I haven't tried Weavile out myself yet but I'm planning on testing it a little bit (if anyone has any teams lmk!) before the vote, but rn I am leaning very strongly towards Do Not Ban.
 
I got reqs for the first time in forever so I can basically sum up my thoughts fully but brief.

Yes there is a lot of ways Weavile can just shred through weakened teams well, and I do believe SD with Tera Dark/Ice due to its sheer strength is the best set at times but there are plenty of good reasonable ways to handle Weavile such as;

Offensive counterplay :lokix:

While there is hardly any Pokemon that can naturally outspeed, plenty of mons like Keldeo, Slither Wing, and don’t mind tanking unboosted Knock Offs or Triple Axels, and can fire back with their stabs. There is also strong priority from Scizor, Conkeldurr, and Hisuian Arcanine. Plenty of other Choice Scarf users like Latios, Zapdos-G, Hydreigon, Metagross, and Gardevoir can come and revenge kill it.

Defensive counterplay :tinkaton:

This is where you can make sure that Weavile can't get out of hand. Tinkaton in particular can make sure it doesn't get out of hand easily. She can steal boots or Choice Band with Pickpocket too, then follow it up with Encore or Thunder Wave

Not enough move slots/teras :choice band: :heavy-duty boots: :magnet: :charcoal::spell tag:

Yes, in theory, Weavile can just force through a Toxapex, Keldeo, or Scizor with Tera Blast Electric/Fire but you then end up sacrificing either Ice Shard or Axel, making it super easy to then revenge kill with a Scarf Latios without having to use Tera yourself. It also means you can't trade as well into Conkeldurr as much and don't have the extra Psychic immunity to boot. Upper Hand/Low Kick/Tera Ghost are good in theory to make your matchup vs Lokix and Conk better, but then you're sacrificing the immediate power once again when you will make your immediate matchup into the rest of the tier far worse. Choice Band has seen more usage as well but it can often just trade once into a Skarm switch-in, then gets super weakened by Rocks and it can't do it throughout the entire game

Conclusion :weavile:

Yes Weavile can do well against weakened teams that really only use Twave Slowking as their main check against it, but 90% of teams will have good/decent answers to Weavile and the lack of real set-up opportunites that it had last time it was suspect tested for it makes this a pretty simple Do Not Ban vote for me.
 
been busy so very late to posting this but I wanted to address/explain some stuff, unscripted so it'll be a bit of a yap.

So why weavile and why are we suspecting it again now? As others already pointed out the metagame was significantly different back when weavile got it's first suspect, and even though it was arguably a lot unfriendlier to it than the current one, it was still a really close vote. But even putting all of this aside, weavile has been flipflopping between OU and UU a few times this generation and has been a controversial element every single time it dropped back, and with the announcement of rises being frozen for the rest of the generation there couldn't be a better time to me to finally settle this and decide if we think weavile belongs to uu or not.

I also think this test is important because it's result could decide the direction we take in tiering for the rest of the generation: We're coming up on the last year of SV and it seems like most people are happy with the point we're at in UU, there's a couple other guys that are occasionally mentioned when it comes to potential suspects, mostly Latios, but none of them are as talked about or viewed in a similar light as weavile. Obviously trends change and so does the meta as a result so it's impossible to really say what's going to happen from here on out, especially given we're also waiting on OU's tera blast test, but as it is right now the metagame is pretty stable and would be shocked if something else rose out to be as big of an issue to warrant a ban. So all in all, I think this suspect is also a matter of how happy we are with the current metagame, if we think we could strive for something better and if weavile's potential toxic presence is holding us back from that, given it's widely agreed the mon is by no standard means broken.

All that aside, I haven't had the time to get reqs myself this time around but had I got the chance to, I would've been inclined to vote dnb. I ultimately like weavile's centralizing presence in the metagame and the stuff I've got more of a problem with are held back by restrictions such as tera commitment or specific team building, the second of which gives them away immediately. At a baseline I've got no issues with boots SD set, I think there's enough reasonable checks to it and I also agree with the various comments about the meta not being super kind to it with the offensive yet bulkish shape it has taken, though there's occasional games where it'll be eating away slower paced teams. It having no full-on counters is just the nature of being a knock mon on top of the speed tiers in any metagame, but it's +0 damage output isn't strong enough to give it the opportunity to pressure a lot of stuff without substantial help or lots of good yet often risky clicking, and as a result there's plenty checks still. Regardless of my stance, I'm very happy this suspect test is happening at this time and the activity/discussion around it has been great to see which makes me happy with the decision.
 
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got my reqs so it's time to drop my correct and based opinion

over the course of this suspect, i lost a number of games, as i'm sure we all have. for around 30% of those losses, weavile was present on the opposing team. however, for over half of those, weavile either contributed little to nothing, i played poorly around it, or my opponent played it really well. only a small subset of my losses involved weavile putting in a significant amount of work on its own merits rather than the weavile user making good plays or me just bungling it. all of those involved some off-meta thing that matched up well into whatever team i was using at the time but didn't do well into the meta at large. most notably, tera blast electric fucks over my main team really bad, but that's because my main team is semistall and gives it way more switch-in opportunities than most teams will. in fact, my team is pretty much the best-case scenario for weavile in general: a very fat team that likes to extend games into the long term and gives it a ton of free switch-ins. i think the fact that i'm coming out on top of weavile interactions more often than not with that team indicates that weavile is not banworthy at the current time
 
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