Enough time has passed since I built this team, so I decided to post it on RMT.
This team is based on "Paralysis + Drum Quagsire", which is one of the sample teams.
Compared to the original team, it has been tuned to have a stronger anti metagame tendency.
It's been one of the most active teams in my tournament play, as it's comfortable against conservative players (this is by no means the certain one player), and this team showed great stability in important games, resulting in multiple wins.
When evaluating this team, I want you to keep in mind that this team tends to be anti metagame oriented, and use comfortability in a tournament scene as a criterion for evaluation.
(If you just want to eliminate weaknesses, you'll probably just recommend the sample team)
I also believe that this team itself will improve our knowledge of the metagame in tournaments. I would be happy if I could contribute in that respect.
This team is based on "Paralysis + Drum Quagsire", which is one of the sample teams.
Compared to the original team, it has been tuned to have a stronger anti metagame tendency.
It's been one of the most active teams in my tournament play, as it's comfortable against conservative players (this is by no means the certain one player), and this team showed great stability in important games, resulting in multiple wins.
When evaluating this team, I want you to keep in mind that this team tends to be anti metagame oriented, and use comfortability in a tournament scene as a criterion for evaluation.
(If you just want to eliminate weaknesses, you'll probably just recommend the sample team)
I also believe that this team itself will improve our knowledge of the metagame in tournaments. I would be happy if I could contribute in that respect.
- PokePaste
https://pokepast.es/ab348eef9786b352
=== [gen2ou] VenuQuag Offense ===
Zapdos @ Magnet
Ability: none
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 22 Atk / 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Thunder
- Rest
Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 26 Atk / 26 Def
- Spikes
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Curse
- Explosion
Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink
Venusaur @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 216 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Razor Leaf
- Synthesis
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Belly Drum
- Rest
=== end ===
- Features of each pokemon
Zapdos
The sample team has TWave Zapdos lead, but this team has Resttalk Zapdos lead, which has improved matchup performance of itself and also functions as a status absorber.
The problem with not leading TWave Zapdos is that it becomes too passive against Snorlax lead, but this team employs Curse Explosion Forretress, so by immediately switching to Forretress against Snorlax, you can maintain a agressive posture.
Also, in this team, Zapdos has Magnet.
The advantages of Magnet Zapdos are as follows, and for this team, it's especially important that it becomes easier to create a wincon by breaking the opponent's Snorlax with Zapdos.
(This double tracking of wincon is useful when Quagsire or Snorlax is surrounded by walls or destroyed)
Also, leading Magnet Zapdos is meaningful as a countermeasure against Turn 1 Thief and Jynx lead (Zapdos has a slightly advantage in 1v1 when Jynx uses Turn 1 IceBeam).
This team is by no means strong against Exeggutor, so Leftovers, which improves the matchup to Exeggutor, was also attractive, but after testing, it seemed like Magnet was more effective in many situations.
(Added 2025/03/07)
The minimum roll required for Zapdos is Hera check and Skarm check. On that premise, it is desirable for it to function as a third wall break method other than Snorlax or Quagsire.
Considering that, against players who strongly prefer to Zapless HeraKou/SkarmKou Core, it is better to change the lead to Snorlax or Venusaur and replace Zapdos with Earthquake / Flamethrower / Curse / Rest Aeroductyl.
In my experience, there was only one case in an actual tournament where that was the case.
Snorlax
This team's Snorlax is 3 attack Snorlax with Thunder.
(The introduction of 3 attack Snorlax is a tuning often seen in Quagsire Offense)
This Snorlax can break Cloyster, the most frequently used wall against Quagsire, or exploit Skarmory, the most common Quagsire checker for Stall teams, as a wall break opportunity.
Also, in actual games, Thunder often works well against Gengar. If an opponent is not wary of 3 attack Snorlax, you can use Thunder to deal chip damage or Para and then use EQ to be prevented from being used Explosion or DBond.
Forretress
I hired this instead of Tyranitar.
FireBlast Pursuit Roar Tyranitar is violent against Exeggutor and Stall Teams, but I believe Magnet Zapdos + Spikes Forretress is more violent against more opponents (eseccially Snorlax).
This moveset is unfamiliar in international OU, but it's one of the most common movesets in Japanese NC2000.
This Forretress can be played aggressively by setting Spikes against Snorlax, then setting up Curse and threatening it with HP Bug + Explosion.
Also, Miltank, which is the primary check against Snorlax, is weak against Drum Snorlax and sometimes breaks against other Snorlax in the long run, so it's important for defense that Curse Explosion Forretress acts as a secondary check.
One of the points that cannot be overlooked is that HP Bug Forretress provides a check function for Psychic.
As a supplementary note on the offensive side, it sometimes can threaten Starmie, the most popular Spinner.
(It's useless against Golem, but this team is not weak against Golem, so it's not a problem)
Also, in the test play on Ladder, I had defeated Tyranitar with HP Bug after Curse.
Miltank
This hasn't changed from the sample team, and the moveset is also very common.
Once forced into SLP, Snorlax, Quagsire, and Magnet Zapdos may require assistance from Beller. Venusaur which received Para from Zapdosdos or Raikou's Thudner should also be treated with HealBell as possible. It's also useful for controlling Sleep Clause (when you want to turn on Sleep Clause, you can SLP any Pokemon and heal it when you use that Pokemon) and for preventing unexpected defeat by FRZ.
Miltank not only acts as a primary checker against Snorlax, but is also important for ensuring a minimal countermeasure against hyper offense teams. BodySlam's chip damage and Para may prevent sweeps.
Venusaur
I hired Venusaur instead of Starmie. This is because I judged Venusaur to be more aggressive and stable against regular OU teams.
Venusaur is a Pokemon that has always been ranked around 5th in VR of Japanese OHKO banned NC2000 since 2014 due to the strength of this moveset, and in this team, it performs a function reminiscent of that figure.
Venusaur's biggest feature is that most frequently used OU pokemons cannot prompt Venusaur to switch out immediately.
For example, Pokemon like Snorlax and Zapdos are stuck for long turns against Venusaur, which uses Leech Seed, Synthesis, and sometimes Sleep Powder.
If the opponent leave Leech Seed planted or being into SLP, the following bad things happen one after another, giving you an opportunity to break the wall or recover.
If the opponent actively switch to prevent that, you will be able to easily double switch, which will also give you an another opportunity to attack or recover.
I mentioned Snorlax and Zapdos as examples, but other OU pokemon, sometimes even Skarmory and Heracross, can be afflicted by Venusaur.
Unless a Pokemon like Exeggutor or Moltres is brought in, Venusaur will serve some roles.
(It can use outspeeding Sleep Powder for Exeggutor, and it can use Leech Seed when Moltres switching in, so it's not like you can't do anything at all)
Because Starmie was not hired, this team does not have a Spinner, but Venusaur's above characteristics can be considered to function as a pseudo Spinner.
If you switch to Venusaur once, the player who will be hurt by frequent switch out will be your opponent side, and phazing will also be difficult if your opponent's phazer gets Leech Seed.
Toxic immute also has significance.
Especially, being able to exploit Cloyster is a big thing for this team.
(The most popular moveset Cloyster has no effective attack against Venusaur other than Explosion, and the presence of Quagsire makes it difficult to even use Explosion)
Quagsire
This hasn't changed from the sample team, and the moveset is also very common.
On the offensive side, it has synergy with Zapdos and Snorlax, and on the defensive side, it provides a stable defensive utility against IceBeam, which is unstable with Snorlax and other pokemons.
In most cases, it's desirable to play while keeping the Quagsire's presence as hidden as possible.
- Strength of team
This team can stably play against the following teams.
In fact, the win rate against these teams is also high.
These teams are all frequently used by players who want to play conservatively.
It's probably not uncommon for players that most of the teams they use fall under the above categories.
However, regarding offensive teams, if Exeggutor is included, it's a little uncomfortable. This alone will not put you at a disadvantage, but it will also difficult to play advantageously.
- Weakness of team
On the other hand, this team is weak against the following teams.
All kinds of hyper offense teams
Problems against BP spam
An immediately obvious flaw is that this team, despite its passive tendencies, is no phazer team. There are methods such as Sleep Powder and Explosion, but they are insecure against thoroughly BP Spam.
Probrems about poorly matchup against rapid sweepers and Exploders
Due to the removal of Curse from Snorlax, the matchup against rapid sweeper (like Tauros, Entei, etc), which is used in hyper offense (and similar aggressive offenses), has deteriorated, and it has also become difficult to countermesure against Exploder. For that reason, win rate against teams like Boom Spam is also not good. Even only using Gengar + Exeggutor together may bring this team disadvantage.
(Added 2025/03/16)
To begin with, this team tends to be not good against Explosion itself. This team uses Venusaur to cover the passive tendency which Quagsire Offense generally has (in the bad meaning of giving an opponent a lot of dice roll opportunities), but if Venusaur is removed by Explosion, that passive tendency becomes apparent. If Exploder which removed Venusaur is Cloyster which is the only Quagsire checker, there is no problem, but if the opponent has another Quagsire checker, a problem occurs. Also, Forretress which has normal resist is Restless, so it is insufficient as a countermeasure against Exploders. As a guideline, this team is at risk of not functioning properly with facing three or more Exploders.
Problems against specific type spam except BoltBeam
Furthermore, it's not good at tactics that spam attributes other than BoltBeam (Electric + Ice), such as teams like Sunny Day Spam. Psychic with Fire type move could also be a potential threat to this team.
Marowak
This team cannot escape the struggle against Marowak because there are many Pokemon that have bad matchups against Marowak, such as Quagsire, and there is no stable checker against Marowak.
Not only Marowak included in Hyper Offense, but also relatively stable offensive teams such as Paralysis + Marowak will bring this team a hard time.
Substitute sweepers (like Kangaskhan)
The defenses provided by Forre, Miltank, and Venusaur are all vulnerable to Substitute, and Zapdos' Thunder is also vulnerable to Substitute, making it potentially vulnerable to Substitute sweepers.
For example, if Return/Curse/Roar/Substitute Kangaskhan starts setup by exploiting Forretress or Venusaur, there may be a high probability that you will be forced into a difficult situation.
FireBlast Clefable
The Miltank + Steel Snorlax checker core is said to be safe against Snorlax, as Snorlax typically does not run Fire and Drum at the same time. However, this is not the case for Clefable.
To make matters worse, the Steel Snorlax checker on this team is Forre, which can be got outspeeding OHKO by Fireblast, which is very bad.
Unexpected Curse FireBlast Snorlax lead (added on August 26 2024 at 10:48 PM)
This team assumes a play where you switch to Forretress and set Spikes against Snorlax lead.
If Snorlax uses these 2 turns to setup Curse, then Forretress will also need to setup Curse.
Here, if the opponent uses FireBlast (this is OHKO) at any time when Snorlax is +4 or higher, you will have a fatal disadvantage by only it.
The probability that Curse FireBlast Snorlax lead is low, and if you can expect the use of such a team in advance, you can play differently (or change lead), but due to its deadly impact, I decided that it should be listed as weakness of team.
Taking advantage of the non duplicatability of Forretress's defense utilities (like DrumLax + Growth Venusaur)
Forretress offers a defensive utility with Explosion, but this only works against one pokemon. If they take advantage of this and combine multiple attack methods which are mainly prevended by Forre's Explosion , this team may be pushed into a corner.
An example of this would be DrumLax + Growth Venusaur.
Some specific stall teams
Against a stall team that employs a special Pokemon like Rest Forre, this team may completely lose the means to break wall.
Rest Forretress itself is not a rare Pokemon that can be ignored, and if you continue to use a team that is strongly anti metagame oriented like this, there is a possibility that a more specialized team will be used. I myself have used Rest Forretress + non Starmie Spinner + HealBell Bliss by the certain opponent in the tournament.
- Track record
This team completed on desk analysis on June 2023, and then went through self testplay and ladder testplay(those replay was lost due to a database trouble in December 2023), and was used in "GSC OU Seasonals #6" and "GSC OU Global Championship 2024".
In this section, I will mention the track record of its use in tournaments.
GSC OU Seasonals #6
vs TibarnWasTaken(Game 3, won)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-753470
After investigating Tibarn's team, I determined that there is a high possibility that I would be able to advantageously with this team. After confirming that there was no significant difference from the trends investigated in advance in Game 1 and 2, I introduced it in Game 3.
His team was GarGolemVap offense. In this game, Venusaur worked well according to the plan.
vs 16bit(Game1, lost)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-755470
After investigating 16bit's team, I judged that the probability of gaining an advantage by using this team was very high. I threw it in from Game 1 without hesitation.
However, he brought in LixGarEggy offense(maybe this should be classified as Boom Offense). This was unexpected for me.
I was in a bad position at this point, and my poor play below made it even worse.
vs 16bit(Game3, won)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-755490
I used the losing team in Game 1 again in Game 3. This was not only because I had the element of surprise, but also because I was confident that this team would have an advantage considering his tendencies.
His team was TankCloyZap Stall. He used a team within the my expected range, and 3 attack Snorlax worked particularly well in this game.
(Even if Snorlax was PP stalled, Quagsire also could break the wall in the long run)
vs Kumiko(Game3, lost) Note : The one I used here is another Quagsire offense that is similar to the sample team, but I am posting it here for reference.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-758802
Because I predicted that the possibility of using a stall team would be high in Game 3, I'm considered to use this team in Game 3.
But, I finally decide to use another Quagsire Offense team which copied vani's team which used in Week 6 of SPL XV against Zokuru("stall lord") due to felt that a specialized team for me would be used.
The team Kumiko used in Game 3 was nearly as expected (The player who used Rest Forretress + non Starmie Spinner + HealBell Bliss for me is he). However, what I didn't expect was that he brought even Aerodactyl. He was better than me at the team prediction and tuning skills.
GSC OU Global Championship 2024
vs Tycarter(Game 2, won)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-768990
I felt Tycarter's tendencies had be clear. After winning Game 1 with a specialized Stall team, I brought in this team, which was a little more consictent than specialized teams just in case, in Game 2.
His team was NidoGarTar Offense. This game can also be said to be one of the games where Venusaur worked well.
- Conclusion
Even though this team is not a team aimed at a specific player, it can stable play in games where I should win, as if it were a specialized team, and it became one of the teams which I trusted the most in tournament play.
There are several important points to consider when rating this team. The value in the metagame in tournaments, the function of Venusaur, the Quagsire offense team's structure which multiply the means of wincon, etc.
I would be happy if this team could give me an opportunity to think about something.
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