Proposal Venusaur, Smeargle, and Typhlosion in GSC UU

[DAWNBUSTER]

GSC PL is ending soon and a few other tournaments are coming up. In this thread, I want to ask the GSC UU playerbase a question: where do we stand on additional UUBL drops?

In 2024, Aerodactyl and Muk were unbanned from GSC UU. For context, Aerodactyl and Muk were unbanned in an attempt to improve GSC UU, giving the tier a check to certain powerful Pokemon and an additional Explosion user, respectively. Since then, and even before it happened, some other UUBL Pokémon have been discussed for drops. Among them are Venusaur, Smeargle, and Typhlosion.

The rationale for dropping these Pokemon differs from Aerodactyl and Muk. In the eyes of some GSC UU players (including myself), Venusaur, Smeargle, and Typhlosion would not be overpowered in GSC UU. In Smeargle and especially Venusaur’s case, it’s actually been claimed they would be average, or even poor, in GSC UU.

Venusaur

In Venusaur’s case, its typing has a lot of baggage in UUs metagame and it lacks access to certain key moves [Sludge Bomb, Earthquake, Stun Spore]. Bellossom and Victreebel, neither of whom are superstars in UU, have advantages over it [Better typing in Bellossom’s case, and higher attack + Sludge Bomb in the latters case]. Its defensive talents aren’t very well suited for UU’s meta. It wouldn’t be a worthless Pokemon: it has higher speed than Bellossom and access to moves such as Light Screen and Growth. Venusaur can pose a threat to some teams with a Growth set, and serve as a check to Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Quagsire, or Baton Pass teams with Roar. Overall, though, it is a very flawed Pokemon that’s not splashable on teams. It's not broken or unhealthy.

Smeargle

I made a big post regarding Smeargle back in May. Smeargle has been tested in tournaments before, being allowed in both UUFPL and GSC Slam League. In both tournaments, it was barely used. As a Spikes user, Smeargle has several disadvantages in comparison to Qwilfish, in particular its bad Blastoise matchup, lack of longevity, and lower speed. GSC UU is a metagame where such defensively lacking Pokemon are hard to justify and Smeargle's supporting talents aren't great in UU. From my experience using it in UUFPL, it is a usable option on some offensive teams. It can be a good tempo setter with moves such as Spore and Destiny Bond. Qwilfish is very often the superior Spikes user though, and beyond Spikes Smeargle doesn't have much to do. If you want more information on Smeargle, read my post - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-slam-league-format-discussion.3764768/post-10565425

Typhlosion

Typhlosion is probably a bit better than the other two guys but it's still nothing broken. Typhlosion is not too big an upgrade from Arcanine, who while usable in UU, is very hard to fit onto teams, prediction reliant, and relies a lot on finding good matchups. Typhlosion shares these problems, while actually being frailer than Arcanine. Typhlosion is reliant on having the right coverage moves, predicting switchins, having Sunny Day Up, and having Fire Blast land to be as scary in practice as it is on paper. All while it struggles to slot onto teams due to its average bulk and bad defensive typing, which also hurt its ability to switch in. It can undeniably be scary if used well but I see it as a more high risk high reward UU Pokemon. If you want more information on Typhlosion, read this post by Celebiii - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-case-for-a-typhlosion-drop-to-gsc-uu.3764536/

All that brings me to the crux of my argument - if these Pokemon are not broken in UU, why should they remain in UUBL?. If they can be dropped into UU without radically altering the metagame, they should be. ADV UU, another tier that has dropped BL Pokemon, did this Jumpluff and Ninjask. Those BL Pokemon were agreed by players to be harmless additions, so they got dropped. Its also not like the three mentioned Pokemon are without merit. Venusaur would give UU another check to certain annoying Pokemon, Smeargle lowers the metagames reliance on Qwilfish gives offensive teams more options, while Typhlosion is another skill based mixed attacker, similar to Nidoqueen. All three, in particular Smeargle and Typhlosion, reward smart play and teambuilding.

I do not think dropping these three is a matter of just shaking up the tier. I believe they would improve an already good tier and are harmless drops. Dropping them also clears out the crowded UUBL tierlist, making UUBL more accurate. Dropping them is something that's been theorized before - we let Smeargle into UUFPL and Slam League, there was a thread made on Typhlosion in particular this year, and a Venusaur drop has been thought of since 2021.

There is one major snag with these drops. It has to do with Smeargle. Smeargle, over the years, has been seen as a fine Pokemon...if Baton Pass is banned. While it can't pass Agility, Smeargle can pass moves such as Belly Drum, Swords Dance, or Spider Web. If you ask me, Baton Pass Smeargle is not as bad as its made out to be, but I understand the concern. We could, however, ban Baton Pass. This is something that has been discussed before. There was also a UU survey from September which indicated that some players still dislike BP. When Smeargle was allowed in UUFPL and Slam League, Baton Pass was banned alongside it. This is probably the most contentious point here: should Baton Pass be unbanned so we can unban Smeargle? This year, BP usage in UU has been low, and the games it has shown up in haven't blown anyones mind. If you ask me, I would say yes. I think its more worth it to have Smeargle, a valuable Pokemon, than a controversial move like Baton Pass. I think we should try this out first, though. I do not see BP Smeargle breaking the tier or being unhealthy. I'd like to hear some feedback on this point, though.

In conclusion, I think Venusaur and Typhlosion should certainly drop. Smeargle is a matter of what you want to do with Baton Pass. I do not think all three have to be unbanned, but I think it would be best. I think the GSC UU slot in the upcoming ALT PL should look into these changes, as should UUFPL, assuming there is enough time for them to implement these potential changes. I implore anyone familar with GSC UU to step in and give feedback.

 

[BigFatMantis]

As someone very active in ADV UU tiering, as well as active in GSC UU tiering, I think the two are not very comparable at all. In this instance for example, I doubt any of these three are "harmless" additions. Let me elaborate:

A) Smeargle is as close as it gets for me. Ninjask in ADV UU was unbanned because the sole reason it was banned in the first place was tied to Baton Pass. Once Baton Pass was banned in ADV UU, there was really no reason to keep this guy banned anymore. Also, it's kind of cool on some teams in ADV UU. This thing only is comparable with Smeargle, and basically only if Baton Pass is banned in GSC UU. In that scenario, I support a Smeargle drop, because Smeargle can also be a "fun" addition on some teams without Baton Pass, and is generally rather harmless. But that requires further discussion on Baton Pass which, at the moment, is not very OP in UU. Certainly if BP DOES get banned than unbanning Smearlge is a no-brainer imo.

B) Typhlosion is too theoretical right now to really for certain say it's a beneficial add or a harmless drop. I can see situations where it can be devastating with a sleep talk set with Sunny Day. I sincerely doubt this is a "harmless" drop at all, in any of the same ways as ADV UU tiering. That does not mean it is a "bad" drop, but I think it is not comparable and, if we were to choose to drop it, it would need to be because it was perceived as a near-universal positive addition, sort of like Aerodactyl and Muk were.

C) Venusaur is a bit in between, it's probably not a huge deal to drop but it also sounds a bit annoying. I doubt it's OP, but I doubt it adds anything positive either, not even a "fun" thing to put on some teams. It makes for a very bulky Swords Dancer in a tier where Arcanine is the only fire and Dodrio is the only bird-move user. All the Psychics besides Mr. Mime probably lose the 1v1. That doesn't mean it's OP, but again, it's definitely not a harmless drop, and it can run a defensive set in addition to an SD set and a Growth set.

So, I'm not saying drop/don't drop all/any of these. But I'd really be wary of any ADV UU parallels. IMO, a Baton Pass discussion should be done first and we should probably settle that issue before making any new changes. To me, GSC UU is a great tier atm and doesn't warrant any scrambling - I wouldn't even ban Baton Pass since it's not OP or tier-warping in any real way.

That being said if somebody wanted to do a No-BP + Smearlge/Venusaur/Typhlosion tour that'd probably give you a lot more healthy data on how that meta would play out before discussing it further in theorymon. Aerodactyl + Muk were tested several times before voting on a drop, and I'm not against taking an upcoming tour and using this as a test ground. But I'm against any action atm until we decide the bigger tier questions moving forward.