Watery Grave

syrim

syrim

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This team started with a desire to try a slightly unorthodox yet very effective set, Choice Specs Palkia. Palkia truly has only one safe switch in, and his wallbreaking potential is amazing, so I of course paired it with Kyogre to give it the rain it craves. Their effectiveness is very well known, but I set out to abuse them in a slightly different manner, focusing more on pure offensive synergy, and abusing the rain's boost as much as possible. This offensive synergy can go a very far way, as most teams only have one solid switch in to Kyogre's water spout. Enter Choice Specs Palkia. Something with a move nearly as powerful, with the same few counters, and a STAB move that eliminates most teams only check to Kyogre, Latias. While not near as good in practice as it is on paper, this team has been very successful, peaking at 4th on the DW ubers ladder, but still has quite a bit of room for improvement.


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I obviously needed these two, and so the process began with creating decent synergy with the two, as at least one and probably both of them would be choiced.

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Nattorei is an obvious choice, as it resists all of the pairs weakness, and it's quad weakness is minimized by the rain and offers easy switch in opportunities.

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The lead came next. Something with offensive presence was useful, and Deo-a fit perfectly. Setting up stealth rock while also assaulting many troublesome pokemon that occupy the lead spot was exactly what I needed.

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Steelceus was the next member. While accentuating my Fighting weakness it offered me an invaluable stall breaker, something I knew my choice based team would need. It also provided a lure to Groudon, helping me control the weather.

The next member is in still in debate, but I will include the member who currently occupies the last spot.

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The tyrant adds yet another fighting and ground weakness to the team, but accomplishes many important jobs in return. He can allow Lati@s and many times even Palkia and Zekrom blocking my powerful water assaults to be removed through pursuit. He also acts as a Ho-Oh check and first switch in if the former has been accomplished, as well as taking on many unboosted Arceus forms. This spot is very tentative, and previous iterations have included both Skymin and Scizor.


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Deoxys-A @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Superpower
- ExtremeSpeed
- Stealth Rock
- Psycho Boost

I know two recoil moves may seem a bit excessive, but Deo-a really appreciates all the power it can get. This allows is to heavily damage anything I see as a threat immediately, or allows massive damage to anything else, really. Forretress and Deo-s are very dangerous. Forry laughs at nearly everything, while almost all deo-s aren't 2hkoed by ES. Forry is usually directed to Palkia, who's spacial rend 2hko's without activating cutsap, and T-tar usually handles Deo-s, but must be wary of superpower.

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Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

The King returns, abusing Water Spout to the fullest. Modest over Timid to allow maximum power, as Kyogre isn't outspeeding much with a +spe nature that it wouldn't anyways, and I would never risk the tie with opposing Scarf Kyogre and Zekrom. The moveset is obvious, and doesn't require too much explanation. It seems that a bulkier Kyogre would be appreciated for greater rain support, but Palkia does just fine for a time in the sun with it's Dragon moves, and has ko'd many a Groudon switching in to take it's rain.

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Palkia @ Choice Specs
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Spacial Rend
- Surf

The set piece of the team, who needs only three turns to almost always accomplish his job. Team preview aids this monster even more, as the switch becomes true guess work. Surf is chosen over Thunder as Specs Palkia appreciates the reliability over what usually ends up being superfluous coverage. Evo-Stone Chansey is the only safe switch in, and with a small amount of prior damage, can be 2hkoed. Modest is an option for getting much closer the the KO on Chansey, but doesn't have much use besides that.



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Nattorei (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball

Natt performs an invaluable job here as he does on many uber teams. He is a great switch in to thunders, counters CM ogre wonderfully, can take many water attacks, and can even act as a check to threats such as Lati@s(in the rain) and Skymin. Spikes are so it has something to do with it's time, as well as wearing down enemy Palkia eager to switch into water spout. Leech seed provides excellent recovery, especially as Natt often finds itself switching on the next turn, giving my next member a way to soften the incoming blow. Gyro ball and Power Whip don't require much explanation. I've had many suggestions for shed shell, but a double switch to Palkia is pretty easy to accomplish, and leftovers are pretty vital for Natt.



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Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Judgment
- Thunder

Arceus is an invaluable stall breaker, and it's slightly unorthodox moveset lends itself to this. It's a perfect switch in to Evo-stone chansey, something this team desperately needed. Thunder is very useful, granting me the ability to heavily damage Ho-Oh, Lugia, and many other phazers. Many times I do not CM first turn, as this allows the usual suspects such as Groudon and Garchomp to easily counter me. With Max SpA I almost always 2hko Groudon, giving me all important weather control, and do a good amount to Garchomp, letting Natt deal with it much easier. Grass knot is inferior as I already struggle with Ho-Oh enough. Roar only helps me against Lati@s who are already very well handled by T-tar.




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Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Yet another pokemon to help me deal with stall. Offers a near perfect switch to the Lati's and clears the way for unbridled water spamming. Can also pursuit evo-stone chansey and with SR do enough damage to keep it from coming back in on Water Spout, or Superpower or the KO if Chansey is feeling like Toxic. T-tar performs his jobs well but his typing is unfortunate for this already ground and fighting weak team. Skymin was here in a previous iteration, but didn't accomplish much besides somewhat check DD Quaza. Scizor did a good job, but was much more vunerable to the Lati's, and couldn't switch in near as easily, and in this scenario, an immediate switch is very neccesary for my team. I'm still thinking of replacing this with a very specially bulky scizor. One major benefit T-tar holds over Scizor is it's guarantee to remove Shandera, who is many new stall teams main answer to Steelceus.

There's the team in all it's watery glory. Please remember that this is a team based on eliminating the few counters to the near uncounterable, and ending matched quickly after that has been accomplished. Thus, sacrificing is often a very beneficial strategy for this team, and a switch-in that is not 2hkoed is in many cases not really necessary, please remember this in your rates to some extent. Well, I guess it's time to begin the seemingly impossible task for me of beginning a new, improved team. Enjoy!
 
Threat List

Since it's very, very late i'm just going to do a smaller threat list, of the pokemon who can truly threaten me.

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RP Groudon. Oh man. I have basically no answer. Plus it gets free set up against Natt. This one's a doozy, and the fixes seem to break my already fragile team apart. Support Groudon isn't nearly as dangerous, and really only bothers me by taking the rain.

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Seriously. I. Hate. This bird. The nitro charge sets aren't quite as threatening as the Sub/recover ones. Basically, I have to sac something, and regeneration allows it to almost always have at least one more switch, forcing me to play accordingly. Without SR, trouble, and obviously a spin is not impossible. Most forretress can only spin against Natt, and i'm very carfeful to avoid that if Ho-Oh and it occupy the same team.

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The only reason it's very threating is that I don't have a Flyer/Levitator. It's revenged easily, but it still deserves a mention.

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Obviously i'm going to see a lot of these, and strangely enough the one's that bother me are the one's I technically can handle easily. Scarf versions are easy enough, but the mixed one's can throw me a number. Before I position myself to deal with it I often have to sac a usually vital at the time member, because of the teammates Palkia often has.

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Extreme killer can be very threatening if it attempts to set up against the right pokes. Natt is kind of set up bait, but leech seed+gyro ball help a little. Of course if it gets to +4 i'm done. Palkia at excellent health can survive a +2 es, so, yea. My only real option is to not let it set up

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I have to sac. Luckily, it can really only come in once, and is easily handled by prediction.

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For obvious reasons, scarf terakion gives me trouble. This is one of the main reasons I am considering Scizor, and even that isn't near as good a stop as Skymin. Thankfully these are still rare.

I'm sure there's many more that will be pointed out, and i'll try to address more or simply add a bona fide threat list at a later date. This skeleton should help all you raters see my main issues at least.
 
Well as you know I've played this team alot (even recommending CB Tar) and the team is excellent, and I'm not overly sure of many changes i could recommend. Even with pursuit Tyranitar this team still hates Shandera in the Dream World as you dont like to lose Nattorei although theres not much you can do about that (except running Shed Shell but Natt really misses Leftovers recovery). Something you could maybe consider is running Will-O-Wisp over Thunder on Arceus, i know you miss the second attack but apart from powerful Fire attackers in the sun it becomes very difficult to take Steelceus down. It also helps remove any minor weaknesses to Zekrom, Terakion or Garchomp that this team has. Obviously Ho-Oh is a huge threat to just about every team, even one like this with Palkia, Kyogre and Tyranitar. Its difficult to prepare for this more than you already do but as we both know if you can't keep SR up it is very difficult to deal with. Other than this the team is very good and is why I haven't recommended any major changes.
 
Being one of the few able to sometimes take down numero uno does me proud. I've thought about running a support-like arceus with CM, but i'm not sure if losing the offensive power is worth it. The only thing judgement isn't hitting hard on the switch anyways is Zekrom, and even one judgement really limits it's ability to switch in. So basically it's still going to be prediction based, and i'd kinda prefer the assured damage.

Thanks for the Rate!
 
I think that placing a Giratina-O in Tyranitar's place will help your team. It helps your fighting weakness two-fold by removing Ttar and by being immune. It can handle most of the psychics that Tyranitar could with snadow sneak, while also keeping Nattorei's and Deoxys' hazards in play by being a spin blocker. This also helps your Ho-oh problem by keeping rocks in play. Sneak can also pick off weakened birds before they roost. Extreme Arceus is also useless against it. A mixed set would probably be your best bet as you do not have a mixed attacker (Deoxys will die before their walls show up), so you won't be as heavily walled by a SkarmBliss or similar pairing of walls.
Good luck.
 
Dragon/Water has virtually perfect coverage outside Nattorei (who is still 2HKOd by Specs Hydro Pump in the rain). It also allows him to have an option for power if its needed and an option for accuracy if its needed.
 
That's a terrible rationale. Run hydro pump if you want power, surf if you want accuracy. You are still only using water and dragon, which, although it has fine coverage, could be complemented well with aura sphere to hit Nattorei and to hit Darkrai after sleep clause has kicked in.
 
Aura Sphere's power against Nattorei is 180. Hydro Pump in the rain has 135 power against Nattorei it also means that he won't get locked into Aura Sphere which is easy for Ho-Oh to set up on, or worse Shandera to trap and kill. Thats the real risk, running other moves gives other pokemon free set ups since they are far more easily walled.
 
Actually, you are using Surf's BP, not Hydro Pump's (which would be 180 without rain). There are lots of choices for the last slot, I'm just saying that two dragon moves and two water moves is a bad moveset choice. Also: SHANDERA DOES NOT EXIST YET! Nothing on this team is DW only, so it makes no sense to play in DW tier. If you fire off a water move, then other Palkia or Zekrom (not as much) can set up or if you fire off a dragon move, steels can set up (specifically standard Steel-Arceus who loves special dragon moves)
 
First off, no I'm not 180 out of rain = 270 in rain. Then half the damage for the resist and it comes out as 135 Power against Nattorei.. Also the fact that he runs Tyranitar and mentions the Latis and Shandera in that section, so clearly this team is at least partially DW-oriented since I've played this team alot and it used to run Scarfmin but changed to Ttar to deal with the Latis (useless in Wi-Fi) and Shandera (non-existant in Wifi)
 
The whole point of using specs palkia is forcing a prediction based switch, as the only thing that isn't KOed by the proper move is Evo-stone Chansey. The only two moves that Palkia should ever be firing off early game are Draco meteor and Hydro pump. The bulkiest of Nattorei are 2HKOd by Hydro pump, and Darkrai is lol. The only things that can switch into Hydro are (disregarding chansey) opposing palkia, latias, and kyogre. All three of these are maimed by any dragon attack. If another move were to be chosen it would probably be Thunder, since Groudon is never coming in on Palkia.

This team is DW oriented as that's where all the better players are. This team is already very hard to beat in Wifi, and if I were to play in Wifi I would simply replace T-tar, maybe with your suggestion, as the only decent counter to Kyogre is neutered. And shandera is a very, very real threat in DW, and using Aura Sphere once would mean sacrificing my Wall breaker. About the mixed attacker, you obviously missed the point of offensive synergy. Since there's only one wall who can reliably stop either Palkia or Kyogre, and said wall is very likely to switch out of any physical risk at all, and that stall caries 2-4 pokemon who can easily deal with Mixed Tina, that suggestion probably won't add much to the team. Giritina also does not really deal with Latias, or at least not to the extent this team needs. Giri cannot switch in, and it also can't keep Lati@s from switching out. Removing the weaknesses would be nice but besides that i'm not sure that's what this team needs.

Just a note, but Aura Sphere wouldn't do anything to chansey.
 
Just one thing, I can't do a full rate since I'm on holidays and don't have time, but you might want to consider running Thunder over Surf or Spacial Rend. Unlike Kingdra who doesn't have many other options, Palkia is still one the premier Kyogre checks of the Uber tier, and Thunder allows you to beat pretty much all versions. It also stops Calm Mind Manaphy setting up in your face as well. Just watch out for people spamming Sub/Claw Sharpen Dugtrio (read: ME).
 
Thunder is a decent option, but DM does a huge amount to any kyogre coming in. Even hydro pump does a decent amount. Especially since i'm really only weak to choiced versions, as CM one's are easily handled by natt. CM manaphy is 2hkoed by Spacial rend, and is also handled by natt pretty well, and t-tar can double switch to take out his rain if neccesary. You probably know how important the consistency can be against slower teams, as your old RMT was a little bit of the inspiration for my using Palkia. Thunder just isn't really worth the moveslot, and giving garchomp a free attack can be fatal for my team.

Thanks for all the Rates!
 
CM manaphy really isn't a problem as i've already outlined. Arceus can set up alongside it pretty easily. It's just not worth the consistency or easy switch ins for groudon or garchomp.
 
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