Will players like me ever be competitive?

Scythemantis

Scythemantis

I enjoy battling other players, since it is pretty much the main point of Pokemon, but I have absolutely no interest in the game if I'm not building teams with the types of creatures that appeal to me. I am a life-long monster fan, biology nut (particularly insects, parasites and mollusks) and horror artist, and Pokemon attracts me solely for the aspect of expressing yourself with a team of personal favorite monsters.

This wouldn't be a problem if I was into demons, dragons, dinosaurs and other things that tend to get high stats, but no...I am all about the slimes, bugs and creeping things. The following is the ENTIRE list of Pokemon that I love enough to even stand battling with:


First Gen:
Gloom
Victreebel
Tentacruel
Weezing
Muk
Venomoth
Parasect
Pinsir
Second gen:
Forretress
Magcargo
Gligar
Third gen:
Cacturne
Dusclops
Banette
Shedinja
Sableye
Swalot
Mawile
Glalie
Lunatone
Fourth:
Carnivine
Toxicroak
Drifblim
Gliscor
Drapion
Skuntank
Vespiquen


....So, my question is, how should I go about turning such a laughable range of favorites into something vaguely fun and challenging for random wi-fi opponents? I'm not desperate or anything - I'm the type who cares more about playing at all than winning - but I'd be curious to know what you hardcore strategists would do if you were someone like me.:)

"Give up and play Dragon Warrior Monsters" is not an acceptable response ;P
(besides, I already have it. There is no replacement for Pokemon.)

When DP hits the states I am probably just going to build a poison theme team (victreebel, muk, drapion, nidoking, tentacruel, and toxicroak?) to have fun with, or continue my stupid quest to build a team around GLOOM, my very favorite Pokemon of all. I've thought of making Gloom the tail end of a baton pass team just for the look of bafflement I might get out of opponents...but, I digress. Even if I did make a BP team, I'd still be building it with losers like Mawile and Ariados...:)
 
I think it depends on exactly what you want to do.

As far as being truly competitive with just the pokemon listed, I would have to say no. Even if you could build a team that could be as powerful and counter as much as a standard team(which at a glance I'm fairly sure you can't), against someone equally skilled with access to all the pokemon you're walking in at a massive disadvantage.

There are a number of things I think might be a good idea to do to dodge this a bit - what I would suggest, if you are willing to do it, is maybe using 2-4 of your favorites on every team you make and then rounding it out with standards. Especially in situations like tournaments it gives you a lot better chance and it still gives you some room to innovate, and using a couple of your favorites there could really catch people off guard when their teams are basically only designed to counter the standard threats.

Using a monotype team is another way to deal with it I guess since most of your team consists of about four types but the trick with monoteams is that if you want them to be able to take on standard teams at all you really need to be willing to use pretty much everything in the type since there are very very few options(if any) for dealing with a lot of the best pokemon.

EDIT: Dragon Warrior Monsters was great okay :(
 
if you are a fan of shedinja (as your list implies), try building a team based around the team of making it unbeatable. it would be a fun project to do a little bit of research on the most common threats to shedinja and trying to counter them with your initial 5 pokemon. then bring in shedinja when it is invincible to the rest of your opponent's team. it may not be the most effective way to use shedinja from a competitive battler's standpoint, but it is a cool way to have fun with the game and also be able to pull off wins. as for gloom, you arent in much luck here. vileplume is a pretty decent poke, but if you're going for gloom, you're in a tough situation. still i like your style; Dusclops has been a staple on my teams ever since pokemon emerald came out :)
 
Yeah, I really like teams with off-the-wall strategies. They may only work part of the time but they're fun to build and tend to be noticed.

I definitely should look at the standards and ubers that I don't use and pick 2-3 favorites of those to train, though. Set them aside for when I know I might be facing serious players. Giratina, Darkrai, Deoxys, Garchomp and Magnezone don't look bad next to the kinds of things I'm really into.

EDIT: Dragon Warrior Monsters was great okay :(
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Of course! But Pokemon is still "the" monster-training game. I do love that DW lets you max out almost any monster to the same stats, so my giantslug, darkeye and belzebub do just as well as anything else...but by the same token, that's what makes it less addicting and lasting than pokemon.

as for gloom, you arent in much luck here. vileplume is a pretty decent poke, but if you're going for gloom, you're in a tough situation. still i like your style; Dusclops has been a staple on my teams ever since pokemon emerald came out
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Yeah, and vileplume is only vaguely decent...I've known since red/blue that an unevolved grass/poison is nothing but a gaping hole in a team but I've still thrown Gloom into my "main" team of each generation. The longest I ever managed to keep one alive was using double team, but that made me feel dirty.

My one true constant though is Muk. I even made a sleep-talk Muk that didn't do too bad.
 
I'm very much like you, I can't use a monster I don't like. But unlike you, my favorites happen to be high tier pokeymans, so I don't have that problem.

And my favorite 'mon is a stage 1 monster as well, Machoke.
 
Most of the Pokemon you listed are UU, so you could concentrate on constructing a team for use in that specific metagame. Even then your choices are very limited. It's difficult to make a team of favourites that can actually compete against a more diverse team that doesn't have the restrictions you've imposed on yourself.
 
The fact that fans even have to make "tiers" is a major flaw in the game's design, but I know I'm preaching to the choir. They make a game with hundreds of options but give it such an erratic sense of balance that a quarter of them render the majority inferior.

I'm a big supporter of having at least 1000 Pokemon by the time everything is said and done, since by then there are sure to be some better things that I'll want to use.

Course, by then I'll probably be 40.
 
Another fan of using favourites. My mindset is unless you have a very broad range of favourites you might make a competitive team.

However one or two favourite pokemon can be used with a standard team built around it. Sadly these are generally Batton Pass teams.
 
The tier system actually serves to remove some Pokemon's inferiority. Against the higher level Pokemon like Raikou and Donphan, Manectric and Sandslash are inferior. Whereas in a specific tier they do well as they're competing on a more level playing field.

You have in fact made your own tier with your list of Pokemon you are willing to use.
 
Victreebel
Tentacruel
Weezing
Muk
Pinsir
Forretress
Cacturne
Dusclops
Banette
Shedinja
Sableye
Mawile
Carnivine
Toxicroak
Gliscor
Drapion
Skuntank

Well, these are good/great/awesome pokemon that you like, you can make pretty decent team out of these IMHO. And i like your style, i also use my own favourites.
 
Scythemantis said:
The fact that fans even have to make "tiers" is a major flaw in the game's design, but I know I'm preaching to the choir. They make a game with hundreds of options but give it such an erratic sense of balance that a quarter of them render the majority inferior.

I'm a big supporter of having at least 1000 Pokemon by the time everything is said and done, since by then there are sure to be some better things that I'll want to use.

Course, by then I'll probably be 40.
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I gotta be honest, every single solitary multiplayer videogame worth playing invariably has tiers.

There is an article on this online, I'll see if I can bring it up.

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/game-balance-part-1/

Balance and variety are inversely proportional, the more you have of one the less you have of the other.

The site as a whole is a good one if you're in to game design theory. http://www.sirlin.net/articles
 
You're just like me. I also only use my favorites. The pokemon i'm interested in are based on real life myths and legends, like Absol and Gyarados. You'll never see childish crap like Blissey or Ludicolo on any of my teams, ever.

However, I have found that if you stare at a pokemon long enough, you might find some things you like about it. For example, I never used to use Tyranitar until I realized the similarities between it and the ancient persian god Ahriman. Maybe you can learn to like some decent standards.

Another good point is that you can always make your favorite pokemon useable. Obviously there will be better choices, but you can still make them useable. More so in D/P than before with items like the focus strip. As an example:

Crappy Pokemon @ Focus Strip
Agility
Baton Pass
support filler (reflect or light screen)
attack filler

This set pretty much guarantees an agility pass. There are decent strategies for practically every pokemon. Except Flareon.
 
Well, that's what I mean. Pokemon's balance and variety are just a little too far apart.

They wouldn't have to change the Pokemon to fix that, though... just team building. Instead of any six monsters, it should have always been based on a "stat cap"; any number of Pokemon within a certain base stat total. Then teams could range from a horde of little weenies to a couple of legendaries. I think if anything it would only make more room for strategy.

The site as a whole is a good one if you're in to game design theory. http://www.sirlin.net/articles
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Very good read! I do, in fact, design a lot of games for fun. I don't know a thing about programming, but I like to come up with original play mechanics and things.

Using a monotype team is another way to deal with it I guess since most of your team consists of about four types but the trick with monoteams is that if you want them to be able to take on standard teams at all you really need to be willing to use pretty much everything in the type since there are very very few options(if any) for dealing with a lot of the best pokemon.
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With my poison idea I wanted to avoid more than one pure poison, but weezing would probably be better than Nidoking. I also don't think a monotype team really has to have exactly six Pokemon with the same type, so I might use Gliscor or a ghost type in there over Skuntank.
 
Scythemantis said:
Well, that's what I mean. Pokemon's balance and variety are just a little too far apart.

They wouldn't have to change the Pokemon to fix that, though... just team building. Instead of any six monsters, it should have always been based on a "stat cap"; any number of Pokemon within a certain base stat total. Then teams could range from a horde of little weenies to a couple of legendaries. I think if anything it would only make more room for strategy.
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The wonderful thing about pokemon is you could theoretically add whatever restrictions you want if your aim was to create, say, a tournament, or even a whole new metagame, although you'd have to make it interesting and fun enough if you wanted to make it something that would catch on.

For instance, you could set your maximum stat cap at 2700, with a restriction that no 3 pokemon's base stats could add up to 1700, meaning a given team had to average out at 450 Base stats. If you wanted to use a Base 600, the rest of your team has to average 420. The second restriction also bans using more than 2 base 600 in the same team. Just an example of something you could theoretically do to shape the game how you wish.

Oh, and just so you're aware, I have a much larger interest in the UU metagame than OU, it seems more variable and allows more room. That and there is the natural aversion to "LOL X sucks cause its UU" when you see it has some redeeming qualities. Relicanth has owned for me in NU, but people seem to doubt its ability.
 
Hahahhaa. You know what, all I can say is. Play with whichever Pokemon that floats your boat. If Gloom is what you want to play? Go ahead and play, it's okay.

Now

When you're sick of losing, and want to actually start winning. You'll learn to drop these favorites of yours soon enough. Trust me, it's how I used to be. But of course, you can still be stylish with your team.

Have a few standards and few BL or UU or even NU that compliments your team nicely, battle with them, tweak it until the team is amazing and bam, there you go.
 
I might try a silly team using ariados, drifblim, mawile and gliscor as a BP chain in that order (agility, substitute, stockpiles, swords dance) use Gliscor as a sweeper with feather rest until it starts to wear down and then pass to gloom (ingrain, drain punch, energy ball, stun spore). Sixth Pokemon could be a mean-look Muk to bring in against hazers. People never expect Muk to be a trapper/wall.

Really stupid and lots of weaknesses but the rare chance that it might work is too tempting not to try.

When you're sick of losing, and want to actually start winning. You'll learn to drop these favorites of yours soon enough..
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If I haven't learned that after ten years and 500 pokes, I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon :p For ten years I have lost between 60% and 90% of battles and am still not remotely tired of my crappy favorites.

At least new moves in D/P have given lots of weaklings a boost while cutting down a few of OU's. Magcargo even gets recover now. It still has almost no hope of ever doing anything other than dying, but it's the thought that counts. Maybe they're just gearing him up for a nice evolution in another half-decade! If there's one thing that pisses me off about DP it's that they didn't give one to Mawile or Sableye, which I thought were shoe-ins to evolve like Gligar, Murkrow, Roselia and Nosepass.
 
That's right. While a lot of new strong pokes have been introduced, some of our oldies have been suped up (including hypno with scheme), old uu pokes have improved just as much as OU pokes, however, this still leaves the gap that has always been there.

There's something to be said to attempt to win with innovative underused strategies and pokemon, but against the standard teams it won't happen. For instance, my favorite pokemon for a long while was Flareon who i tried desperately to fit into my strategies, only it just didn't work. If you don't care about winning, keep doing the same thing. But you don't have many options with the list you provided.
 
Well, I looked at your list and thought it would be fun to try creating a team out of it. I'm not familiar with fourth gen pokes yet though so this is just out of the stuff from the first three you listed.

This actually isn't as bad as you seem to think. Koffing and Dusclops are both pain in the ass stall machines that are quite standard.


What I came up with isn't really topnotch or anything. I think you'd probably still lose a lot. But probably not always if you play well.

Tentacruel
@leftovers
Swords Dance
Sludge Bomb
Toxic
Mirror Coat

Weezing
@leftovers
Sludge Bomb
Pain Split
Will-O-Wisp
Haze

Very typical Weezing, but you need it on a team like this.

Sableye
@leftovers
Knock Off
Fake Out
Shadow Ball
Toxic

Forretress
@leftovers
Spikes
Earthquake
Explosion
Rapid Spin


Cacturne
@leftovers
Leech Seed
Substitute
Focus Punch
Thunderpunch

Dusclops
@leftovers
Will-O-Wisp
Pain Split
Seismic Toss/Night Shade
Focus Punch

Again, typical dusclops, but you'll need it.

The EVs could be played around with a lot, and I'm not gonna use this team so I won't bother with them. But in general I think I'd try to make Dusclops tankey on the special side rather than physical, since Weezing and Forretress already have that covered. The basic idea is to spike and status things, and try to knock off leftovers with sableye without it getting killed. After counters are disposed of try to sweep (of sorts) with Tentacruel, leaving mirror coat in reserve as a nasty surprise for any stray thunderbolters.

Like I said, I doubt this would be consistently successful, especially since I haven't tested it or even bothered to think about pokemon that would take it apart. But I think you'd win sometimes.
 
Competition is the lust for efficiency. You will never be "competitive" if you restrict your own growth. That does not in any way hamper your ability to be creative, funny, intelligent, and a boon to the community though.

And as an unrelated sidenote, please don't link to sirlin. His writings are as old as father time in terms of competitive gaming. They are all generalities that anyone can discover on their own given a few months or a year of practice; things that don't need stating.
 
Pneuma said:
And as an unrelated sidenote, please don't link to sirlin. His writings are as old as father time in terms of competitive gaming.
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Just because something is old doesn't mean it's obsolete. I found it to be a pretty good read and something I hadn't seen before, though I'm sure we all subconsciously understood it.
 
I remember sirlin from at least five years ago. It's an odd internet age thing to be sure but I cannot visualize people on forums like smogon NOT having read sirlin that long ago or more.

In terms of internet literature and especially the subculture that goes towards gaming, reading sirlin is like reading Orwell or Wilde's plays from high school.
 
I said that reading sirlin is literature in the same sense that reading "the classics" in high school is literature. I was praising sirlin for his works but also saying that they are things you are expected to already know.
 
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