Worst match ups

We can have a thread for every character and discuss these there, but what a mess that would be. This thread is for identifying problem match ups that are ridiculously stupid. Like Rev vs Argh when Rev had god-tier light shadow punch, or vitalimar vs soil before giga impact. Hopefully it turns out that everyone that posts is wrong and we discover better play solves matches and beats gimmicky tricks, but that wont always happen.

If single matches are particularly bad, they can hopefully be fixed by precise changes that balance a single match while leaving the rest the same!

So, what matches are the worst, guys?

To me, the single worst match in the game is a mirror match(!) and it's Kril vs Kril. I'm sure it can be entertaining if flash doesn't exist, but flash is silly. There is no reason not to flash, I will always flash. The other guy should do the same. Then you can't see eachother while in the air, and it becomes a game of 'Who lands more random dives and jets?'. Even if not, the whole flash thing is super weird. It's also surprisingly useless, since the shadow is still cast on the ground. If I had to pay significant cost (lag/lots of meter/whatever) I'd never use it.
worst matchups in my opinion are vita v Argh because arghs cut dominates vitas wakeup game. his mach punch pressures vita along with args standerd presssure and his special antiair stops vitas crossup game.

this leads to a boring match where vita does Nothing then punishes everything argh does.
leading to a timeout almost definatly
Argh has trouble against Strategem, me thinks. As stated before, Arghonaut is like E. Honda. If the opponent has projectiles, good night; if he doesn't have projectiles, you're golden.

Argh is forced to be super offensive in the match, but then again, it's not as bad as it was before.
Let's test that match Xaq! I think it is okay. Certainly not in the league of colossoil challenge, right? Argh has great defensive tools and some problems with projectiles, but I still think mach punch makes him okay. Might be a disadvantage match, though.
New Cyclohm walks all over Pyroak. Pyroak simply can't get a projectile in thanks to Thundershock popping his blasts, if he approaches he risks Ohm either grabbing him or Whirlwinding him away, and if he does close Ohm can use Static or low pokes to get some breathing room. Ohm also dominates the air game, unless Oak can pull off Wood Hammer perfectly.
New Cyclohm walks all over Pyroak. Pyroak simply can't get a projectile in thanks to Thundershock popping his blasts, if he approaches he risks Ohm either grabbing him or Whirlwinding him away, and if he does close Ohm can use Static or low pokes to get some breathing room. Ohm also dominates the air game, unless Oak can pull off Wood Hammer perfectly.
This match up is fine.

Really though guys, I'm looking for the worst match ups or gamebreakingly bad stuff. Not 'This match up is sort of hard' or 'I think this one is tough'. This isn't aimed specifically at Ungy or anything.

Did you guys see vit vs soil or Rev vs Argh? You could just do one move over and over again without a thought and win against skilled players. Disadvantage match ups are likely to happen, but really disgustingly broken matches should go here. Tough match ups and strats to win them can be discussed in the character specific threads (example: Gem vs Kril! Ouch that's quite tough, from what I've seen. What does gem have to do different to win?!)
Well, I think Gem simply needs to be more conservative, stay as high in the air as possible for longer times using Levitate and Wall jumps and just fire Power Gems while watching out for Aqua Jets and Spark. Spark is fairly easy to avoid, if Krill comes anywhere near Spark range what you must do is Paleo Wave down ASAP. It might be a hard matchup, but I think Gem does have what it takes.

Otherwise, I think Ohm vs say Rev is very hard for Ohm, Rev lols at its usual means of stopping approach such as Thundershock and Twister while rev can abuse the large hitbox of ohm to land shadow punches even randomly. Cyclohm not having a reversal makes it even worse once its knocked down =/
Currently Gem vs Kril is the most one-sided match up I can think of. I don't know, however, if this is within an acceptable range of difficulty or if some tweaks actually need to be done. Personally, I'd like to save tweaking as a last resort solution and see if we can't figure out some way for gem to succeed using the tools he has. 7/3 isn't beyond redemption.

I think Buddha has the right idea with playing conservatively. It's tough for Gem to play his usual fireball trap cross up game because Kril can avoid fireballs fairly easily, and doesn't worry too much about aerials. Perhaps let Kril make the first move and try to capitalize on whiffs. Paleo Wave can get you on the ground a lot quick than Dive, and between that, faster jumps and the wall jump, Gem has the tools to deke Kril out of the air. It's still a nightmare though as Kril pretty much beats Gem in every other field.
I am totally with you on tweaking stuff as a last resort. The best solution to these problems is just playtesting.

When I use Kril against Xaq, a lot of the rounds were going 60 seconds+, which suggests I wasn't exactly steamrolling.

The interesting thing is, I think if Kril didn't have levitate the match would be too hard in the opposite direction. Mostly Xaq was closing my paths in with projectile traps, and it's easy for gem to use levitate to escape aqua jet attempts and stuff. The sheer versatility of movement Kril gets with levitate makes all the difference.

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Right now, the worst matchup I've experienced is Fidgit vs. Revenankh. Rev gets pretty much straight up shut down all match long here. His standing normals are too slow for him to use them effectively without getting grabbed out of them (i think grabs need a nerf but that's neither here nor there) or poked with j.C, he's getting beaten in the air by airgrab or snatch, and god help him if he Shadow Punches. Back off slightly and standing C, jump and poke with a j.C, or if you have the meter for it, instapunish with Rapid Spin. Meanwhile, Fidgit's approach is fairly easy with cartwheel or j.C to Comet Punches, with Rev not having any real tool against it.
Rev vs Fidgit is fine. Rev 2C and probably 5C trades or beats Fidgit 5C. If he's running away it's quite hard, but controlling the whole screen comes at a cost, he has to commit to fire a projectile. If you predict one on your spot, you can safely dash forward. If you think one's going a little ahead of you, you can even land C-Shadow punch, then you're in. If it's earth power, you can even jump (but I'd keep that option rare). If he's too hesistant or second guessing himself you can just plain walk right up to Fidgit with no worry.

If Fidgit is spamming J.C, rev is going horribly wrong not starting an early A-SP and punishing hard. This match is hard in the same way that Gem, Pyroak and Skull are hard. If you suck at getting in, you lose. If you get in, ride it to victory.

It might be advantage for Fidgit, but it's miles away from needing addressed with any specific fixes.
Most people would agree that Revenankh is probably pretty high up in the tiers. I've become convinced, however, that he does have at least one terrible match up.


Pyroak can just sit back and throw Energy balls all day, relying on the blockstun forcing you back. When you try to jump over or Shadow Punch under, you'll probably eat an Ember oak has been holding onto just for you. When you do eventually force yourself in and get a knock down, a light Wood Hammer will ruin your traditional 50/50 sweep/grab wakeup game.

Take heart though, this match up IS winnable!

Use your Shadow Punch intelligently.
This match up forces you to be keenly aware of your attack ranges. The delay on a whiffed SP is terrible, and if you come up netting nothing but air, you'll probably be set on fire. Advance slowly, taking the chip from the Energy Balls as they come. When you see the red of Ember, SP appropriately. If you're too out of range and feel like even the C SP will whiff, opt instead for the SP that'll bring you outside of Pyroak immediate punishment range. You'll have to approach smartly, and patiently.

Force Palm!
FP proved to incredibly useful when you get the knock down. It beats any version of Woodhammer, jump away, dash backs. Basically, if you time it right, they'll have to block the meaty attack, putting the guessing game in your favor immediately after. After they block, you can either go for a PowerWhip, or if you anticipate a jump, a simple jab to interrupt them will do.

Corner him.
The disadvantage for oak here is that he will inevitably back himself into a corner. This is the best time to go for a knockdown, and once cornered, keep him there! Your pokes like 5B are very handy in interrupting oak from doing much of anything, as you can basically outrange all of his moves. Mix it up the occasional 5A, 5C or Force Palm, or even your sweep. If he tries to jump away, anti air him with Rising Moon, but you'll have to do it early, as oak's j.C will beat it if you're too slow.

Don't be predictable.
Once he thinks he's trained you to not jump. JUMP. try your j.C, chances are you'll bring the pain in on him as he fumbles to lose his charge and anti air you. Managed to knock him down? Don't do anything and watch him whiff a reversal Woodhammer. This match is in Pyroak's favor because he forces you to make decisions and he can just sit back comfortably and react. Don't give him the luxury of acting like an automaton, you always have options, so keep him guessing.

Finally, be prepared to defend yourself.
If Pyroak senses you're starting to figure out his game, he may try to mix things up and go on the offensive suddenly. Be prepared to tech grabs, block cross ups, block low, block high. Just be really solid on this front.

So yeah, despite all this, I still find this a pretty tough matchup. Anyone else have anything else to say about it? I know I'm not the only person to have suffered on the receiving end of an oak fueled projectile barrage.
That match up guide is A+. I've been going around beating up Revs with Oak lately, and that summary is extremely accurate.

I'll try explaining my trap in this match up -

Get about half a screen of distance or more with dash back or jump back, then start the trap.

The first rule is, fireball games cost space! There are two priorities: Get damage and get space. Sometimes you have to trade one to get another.

Fire a slow e-ball then wait. If the e-ball is going to get blocked, start an ember early enough for it to hit right after the e-ball. This gives you enough time to throw another slow e-ball. Mistime this, by firing the ember too early, and Rev can jump over for free. Time it too late and he can jump over the first then shadow punch on the first possible moment on landing to go through ember.

If the e-ball is shadow punched or bind'd under carelessly, it's a free ember punish. If the shadow punch is going to come up close, you can ember, but it's riskier. Much better to dash forward and do a grab. If you suspect Rev will recover in time to tech, do a sweep. This KD lets you jump over Rev (with a cross up attempt if you like) to give you the favourable side with more distance to the corner. Grabs also create space to play more fireball games.

On an ember knockdown, if you are not directly in B or C shadow punch range, an e-ball and ember will pushback rev pretty far.

In the corner, Rev absolutely dominates this match up, maybe as hard as Pyroak does at range. Rev can do poke strings with 2a 5b and force palm to counter almost any counter attack attempt. There are a few moments where a jump escape is possible, but rev can punish any of them with a 4B. Losing backdash hurts! Reckless wood hammers don't do anything. Not sure of the best way out of this yet. Baiting 4B seems good, though.

Also worth noting is how good 5C is for pyroak. Can catch Rev out of the air, and can punish blocked C-Shadow punches or any shadow punch with no cancel.

I'd like to say that at first this match looks unwinnable for Rev. He can't move or attack. Then he improves, and it just looks really bad. He can get around projectiles but not seal rounds. Then he improves again, and it looks like a disadvantage. Getting in his hard, but crazy pokestrings in the corner rape Oak. If the match happened entirely near the corner, the match would be posted here as a 'worst match up' for pyroak; it is very hard. Match is still in pyroak's favour, though!
I've been complaining about the Vit vs Soil match up, but I'd like to take back what I said. I think I just play Vit way too aggressive in that match. Seemed actually okay with hit and run Vit, but maybe people can try testing it. I'm especially interested in toons vs tgm. (Obviously accounting for any skill gap)

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