VGC Zard X vgc 18

[Ghost_]

Hey all, Charizard X is one of my favorite mons and so naturally i wanted to make a competitive VGC 18 team surrounding and supporting it! Been playing quite a bit on showdown testing the team and making adjustments where i thought needed. I don't have a ton of experience so there are certainly quite a few things that could be improved so i just won't see due to lack of xp but that you might. Any help or suggestions is highly appreciated as i want to make the best Zard X team i can and start taking on some local tournaments. Anywho here goes:



Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP/ 132 ATK/ 28 Def/ 92 Sp Def/ 244 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
- Dragon Claw

Credit to @JackTheBattler for this Zard X set. For those of you who don't know, here's what the spread does. The current speed spread allows Zard X to outspeed timid hydreigon by 1 point and retaliate with Dragon Claw, effectively OHKOing it. The defensive Ev's allow for survival against a Zen headbutt from jolly M-metagross UNDER psychic terrain. Additionally it's special defense investment allows for survival against psychic from tapu lele under psychic terrain w/o any sort of damage boosting item such as life orb or psychium Z. Protect and DDance are pretty standard on Z.



Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 132 HP / 116 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off Superpower
- Rock Slide

Wanting an answer to the popular Zard Y's and the occasional Khang (at least for me) AV Lando seemed like a great answer, plus with it's great stats and intimidate it's no wonder it's #1 most used this season. Some notable defensive calcs:

• +1 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Muddy Water vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T: 122-146 (67.4 – 80.6%) — guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T: 148-176 (81.7 – 97.2%) — guaranteed 2HKO

Some notable attack Calcs:

• 116+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Mega Charizard Y: 208-248 (112.4 – 134%) — guaranteed OHKO, which normally does not get OHKO by jolly lando's
• 116+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 132-156 (67 – 79.1%) — guaranteed 2HKO (with 2 mons out)

I prefer knock off due to the abundance of berry carrying mons, and for some extra dark type coverage. EQ and RS pretty standard on Lando's, and U-turn to have an option to back out and reset intimidate or basically just switch to something more advantageous. I'll go into good partners later.



Cresselia @ iapapa berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 188 Def / 100 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Psychic
- helping hand
- Ally Switch/Moonlight

Really liked Cress due to the synergy it has with my team and for it's levitate ability plus speed control. Selected bold nature over a SpD one due to the abundance of physical attackers right now. Defensive Ev's allow for the survival of shadow ball from aegislash, making it a 2HKO, as well as surviving dark pulse from Hydreigon, of which my charizard outspeeds and can OHKO, but char won't always be on the field at the same time at Cress. I wanted some form of speed control as my mons arent all exactly lightning quick or anything and didn't really have a tailwind user atm. Helping hand helps get those crucial KO's or basically just more damage from Lando's EQ or Fini's Muddy water spread damage. Not really sure on moonlight/ally switch, ally switch has come clutch plenty of times with correct prediction's but moonlight seems like generally the safer option to have.



Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Speed
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Moonblast
- Haze
- Scald

Char X while not weak to water, Lando and T-tar are, so i wanted a semi-bulkish mon with water typing to add a resistance to water and covering amoonguss's weakness in addition to having synergy with cresselia as well. Spec's boosted helping hand Muddy water hit's most things for ~half and 2HKO's most mon's not resisted to it. Honestly not sure what spread to use here, was hoping to maybe find some help here, so for now just dumped all into health and special attack for bulk and offensive pressure. Haze to reset stats for those team's where things tend to get out of control, Moonblast and Scald for hard hitting ST attacks. Have played around with Dazzling gleam boosted by specs+helping hand and it's worked out well, however helping hand can't always go off so opted for moonblast instead for solid damage.



Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 240 HP / 172 Def / 96 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Nature: Relaxed
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Spore
- Rage Powder

Next i was looking around for a decent grass type mon that i felt fit into my team and contributed. Played around with Bulu in this slot for some time, but couldn't really make it work very well. Honestly saw more losses using bulu than not. Amoonguss has actually worked out quite a bit better, with redirection allowing Char to set up at times in addition to coming in for those resistant plays into fini's/lando's slot. I feel like amoonguss definitely has better synergy with the team. Chose giga drain since i felt i needed some grass coverage on the team, has tried energy ball but idk i just like the recovery from giga+regenerator.

As i lack a taunter on the team, felt like i needed to somehow make this amoonguss work in TR if it goes up, which it sometimes does when i'm unable to OHKO their setter, which if i see a potential TR setter i usually bring Ttar and Z move it. Anywho, relaxed for TR, and defensive EV's allow survival from Mega-metagross zen headbutt's as well as Lando Z EQ, which it sometimes comes in for when targeted at Ttar or fini at times. Have played around with sludge bomb and clear smog but again, felt like i needed a grass move somewhere, particularly for swamperts and milotics.


Tyranitar @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 124 Atk / 28 Def / 52 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick

Ttar is my answer is TR teams that try and set up, in addition for Cress which is just so darn bulky lol, Z Crunch OHKO's opposing cresselias. Low kick for fighting coverage, usually into heatrans mainly. Rock slide because its just such an awesome move, providing luck is on your side, and protect bc protect. Tyranitars ev's are again credit to @jackthebattler with a slight modification found on ttars vgc analysis 18.
It's defensive ev's allow survival from iron head from a jolly mega metagross as well as surviving choice specs boosted moonblast from lele. Basically a decently bulky Ttar with everything else thrown into offense!


Team Synergy:

Landorus+Cress

Lando Cress is one of my favorite leads, can either HH boost EQ's, EQ while icy winding, or perhaps double attack into a slot. These often see themselves together on the battlefield and usually works well.

Fini+Cress

Thanks to HH, muddy water usually hits non-resisted mons into 2HKO range, this fini is kind of slow as i mentioned the EV's could certainly use work, however these two are a pretty strong powerhouse together.

Zard X + Amoonguss

Amoonguss usually helps deter attackers and allow for a DDance to go up, can protect Zar and spore whatever threatens it followed by a rage powder and DDance. These two are just a strong combo together.

Zard X + Fini

Zard X mainly fears those rock slides, usually provided by either Ttar or Lando's which fini can help make short work of with either scald or muddy water. Generally there is some switching involved while fini clears up.

Other combos are definitely there, those just happen to be my favorite leads generally.

Well that's the team fellas! Been playing a lot of it and just really want to see if it can be improved in any way. As i said i don't have a ton of xp playing vgc so i might just not have the mindset to see how it can be improved myself. Please let me know how it can be, no need to hold back!

Thanks again.

 

[Garris_san]

Solid team. Only a few suggestions. The first is the simplest and comes down to preference I think, but Superpower over Knock Off helps to check Kang, Ttar, etc. Intimidate is a soft check and Knock Off has utilities that you touched on so it is obviously a solid option, helping your matchup against Cress for example. The only reason I suggest this is because this matchup should theoretically be pretty solid anyway considering you threaten with U-turn and Black hole Eclipse on Ttar. Lando-T is such a versatile Pokemon and I would be remiss not to mention these sorts of changes. Other options include Jolly to outspeed 188 Modest Char-Y and Stone Edge to circumvent Wide Guard.

The next is Ferrothorn over Amoonguss. Amoonguss synergizes well with Zard X, but Ferrothorn completes a fwg core as well as a fantasy core along with Fini and Zard. Along with the surprise factor of using X over the more commonly expected Y, this super core is only possible on X teams and you already have Fini, so this could be worth a look see. A simple 252 HP/ 204 Atk/ 52 SpD spread should suffice. Lefties is usually a bad item in VGC or even Doubles in general, but it isn't half bad on Ferrothorn since Leech Seed gives it a pretty reliable form of passive recovery each turn. The only matchup this really serves to improve at first glance is your rain matchup, considering Pelliper does see some usage, but you also wall Lele so that's pretty neat I suppose. Good luck with the team and hope you enjoy.

Edit; Here is a Fini spread that survives Timid Gengar Sludge Bomb as well as LO Tapu Koko Tbolt.
EVs: 236 HP / 92 Def / 132 SpA / 20 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature

 

[Level 51]

Ferrothorn completes a fwg core as well as a fantasy core along with Fini and Zard.

This isn't intended as a call-out of Garris_san or to throw shade at him but I'm inclined to disagree with his second suggestion. It's pretty meaningless to use Ferrothorn over Amoonguss just for the sake of filling out a core or checking off items on a checklist, like "okay now I have a fantasy core too". The only matchups this change improves are the ones against Rain and LeleGross, and both only marginally: Rain teams are likely to have trouble against your Tyranitar + Amoonguss + Cresselia + Tapu Fini regardless, and may not even bring their Rain component in a best-of-one setting due to what looks like two weather setters in Team Preview (Charizard and Tyranitar). Meanwhile, LeleGross is slightly more threatening, and Ferrothorn does indeed better this matchup, but I have a suggestion that I think is better for this slot: Tyranitar --> Ghostium Z Aegislash.

In this slot, Ghostium Z Aegislash:

• similarly OHKOs all Trick Room setters except Oranguru;
• betters your LeleGross matchup tremendously, and unlike Ferrothorn can actually threaten high amounts of damage on Mega Metagross immediately;
• offers Wide Guard support to aid in setting up Charizard X;
• ...gives you a way to actually hit Tapu Fini, lol;
• is a Steel-type, which gives your team a lot more flexibility in switching around.

I think your Rain matchup is sufficiently strong that you don't really need Tyranitar for its Sand, and outside of providing Sand I'm not a big fan of 3 move + Protect Tyranitar (I think DD Tyranitar is better, but it doesn't fit on this team).

======================

In addition, I think you could easily change Dragon Claw to Thunder Punch on Charizard. Tapu Fini is an extremely common Pokemon and you're even running one yourself. It's pretty bad for your team in two ways: firstly, Misty Terrain nerfs Dragon Claw's damage output on grounded Dragon-types, which is obviously annoying for Charizard. Secondly, outside of the Aegislash I just suggested, your team doesn't really have a way to hit Tapu Fini very hard, and even with Aegislash on the team, a Tapu Fini which has a couple of Calm Minds up can shrug off a lot of attacks from your team. Thunder Punch gives Charizard a way to hit Tapu Fini super-effectively, and it's Tough Claws-boosted too. The main calculation is 132 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Fini: 174-206 (50.5 - 59.8%)—essentially, it always 2HKOs offensive CM Fini (unless people are using more than just 252/4. I'm not super certain about Tapu Fini spreads).

That said, I know you built this team around Charizard X, but I think Charizard Y is just a much better choice of a Fire-type for this slot. On this team, for example, it would give you a way to slam Fini for a lot of damage, and can exert a lot of offensive pressure in conjunction with Cresselia's Icy Wind; it also sets Sun to make Moonlight more effective, while Aegislash can protect it against Rock Slides with Wide Guard. What I'm trying to say is that it just synergises with the team far better than Charizard X does.

Summary of changes:

• Tyranitar --> Ghostium Z Aegislash
• On Charizard X, Dragon Claw --> Thunder Punch (or, Charizard X --> Charizard Y, especially if you make the above change)

 

[CudaProdigy]

Small suggestion, but belly drum on zard x can throw an opponent off when they expect you to ddance, and a few flame charges or some tailwind support makes it untouchable. Pair that with some sort of cleric or redirector, and you've got a powerhouse on your hands.

 

[Bright Size]

Small suggestion, but belly drum on zard x can throw an opponent off when they expect you to ddance, and a few flame charges or some tailwind support makes it untouchable. Pair that with some sort of cleric or redirector, and you've got a powerhouse on your hands.

The big issue with Belly Drum is that it cuts your health in half. Redirection isn't perfect because spread moves exist and Tailwind isn't perfect either because other forms of speed control exist, Protecting CharX's attacks, etc. It's too much risk not enough reward unlike Dragon Dance.

Alright so for another suggestion regarding the Tapu Fini:

Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 92 Def / 132 SpA / 20 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water/Dazzling Gleam
- Moonblast
- Trick/Icy Wind
- Scald

You mentioned you tried out Dazzling Gleam and liked it somewhat. I like Dazzling Gleam too, and absolutely despise Muddy Water because of its accuracy. I think I'm in the minority when I do this but I like to drop Muddy Water on Specs Fini for Dazzling Gleam because I'm usually just clicking Scald instead of Muddy Water anyway. I took the spread that Garris_san posted because it looked pretty good and put it here. I don't really find Specs Haze to be useful enough to use; I may be getting rid of some stats but then I'm just stuck clicking Haze unless I want to switch out. You've already got Redirection in Amoonguss, Knock Off in Landorus-T, and Low Kick to hit Snorlax. Trick also helps prevent some set up by locking your opponent into a set up move (lol) along with forcing your opponents into lots of nasty situations like giving Lando-T a good ole' useless Choice Specs and swapping it out for an Assault Vest to make yourself even more bulky and annoying. I've also tabbed Icy Wind as it is a strong option for Speed control; both Charizard X and Charizard Y excel with lots of Speed control allowing them to outspeed things they otherwise would not, such as Landorus-T (which may or may not be scarfed), Mega Metagross, Mega Kangaskhan (which is rarer in this meta although still exists), and so on.

The rest of the team looks pretty solid; I would go with Level 51's recommendations of running Ghostium Z Aegislash and Thunder Punch on ZardX. I do think ZardY is better than ZardX in general though I don't want to take away the focus of the team; I do believe ZardX has some nice potential in it that should be explored.

 

[Ghost_]

Hey all, apologies for the delay in response, running on fumes, work's been hectic xD First, thanks taking the time and trying to help out, highly
appreciate it. I'll get to each of your responses in turn.

First,

Solid team. Only a few suggestions. The first is the simplest and comes down to preference I think, but Superpower over Knock Off helps to check Kang, Ttar, etc. Intimidate is a soft check and Knock Off has utilities that you touched on so it is obviously a solid option, helping your matchup against Cress for example. The only reason I suggest this is because this matchup should theoretically be pretty solid anyway considering you threaten with U-turn and Black hole Eclipse on Ttar. Lando-T is such a versatile Pokemon and I would be remiss not to mention these sorts of changes. Other options include Jolly to outspeed 188 Modest Char-Y and Stone Edge to circumvent Wide Guard.

The next is Ferrothorn over Amoonguss. Amoonguss synergizes well with Zard X, but Ferrothorn completes a fwg core as well as a fantasy core along with Fini and Zard. Along with the surprise factor of using X over the more commonly expected Y, this super core is only possible on X teams and you already have Fini, so this could be worth a look see. A simple 252 HP/ 204 Atk/ 52 SpD spread should suffice. Lefties is usually a bad item in VGC or even Doubles in general, but it isn't half bad on Ferrothorn since Leech Seed gives it a pretty reliable form of passive recovery each turn. The only matchup this really serves to improve at first glance is your rain matchup, considering Pelliper does see some usage, but you also wall Lele so that's pretty neat I suppose. Good luck with the team and hope you enjoy.

Edit; Here is a Fini spread that survives Timid Gengar Sludge Bomb as well as LO Tapu Koko Tbolt.
EVs: 236 HP / 92 Def / 132 SpA / 20 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature

Now that i've added ghostium Z aegishlash, the need for knock off has diminished a bit, it's still important to knock off key item's, however in my testing the coverage from super power and it's power especially when HH boosted deals a whole chunk if not most to Ttar and the like, i'll keep testing it out to see which one i finally decide to leave in the end. As for Ferro over Amoon, hmmm not really sure about that one, gonna have to side with LV 51, not to bash or anything, i appreciate the input and your viewpoint, i just like what amoonguss does with it's redirection and utilitry it can provide the team. Besides ferro is just plain ugly lol. Additionally, that fini spread has actually been working out great, thank's a lot for that spread, honestly wasn't sure what to use so i had just thrown on it the basic good ol 252 252 until i had something better which tbh didnt work out so well.

Next,

This isn't intended as a call-out of Garris_san or to throw shade at him but I'm inclined to disagree with his second suggestion. It's pretty meaningless to use Ferrothorn over Amoonguss just for the sake of filling out a core or checking off items on a checklist, like "okay now I have a fantasy core too". The only matchups this change improves are the ones against Rain and LeleGross, and both only marginally: Rain teams are likely to have trouble against your Tyranitar + Amoonguss + Cresselia + Tapu Fini regardless, and may not even bring their Rain component in a best-of-one setting due to what looks like two weather setters in Team Preview (Charizard and Tyranitar). Meanwhile, LeleGross is slightly more threatening, and Ferrothorn does indeed better this matchup, but I have a suggestion that I think is better for this slot: Tyranitar --> Ghostium Z Aegislash.

In this slot, Ghostium Z Aegislash:

• similarly OHKOs all Trick Room setters except Oranguru;
• betters your LeleGross matchup tremendously, and unlike Ferrothorn can actually threaten high amounts of damage on Mega Metagross immediately;
• offers Wide Guard support to aid in setting up Charizard X;
• ...gives you a way to actually hit Tapu Fini, lol;
• is a Steel-type, which gives your team a lot more flexibility in switching around.

I think your Rain matchup is sufficiently strong that you don't really need Tyranitar for its Sand, and outside of providing Sand I'm not a big fan of 3 move + Protect Tyranitar (I think DD Tyranitar is better, but it doesn't fit on this team).

======================

In addition, I think you could easily change Dragon Claw to Thunder Punch on Charizard. Tapu Fini is an extremely common Pokemon and you're even running one yourself. It's pretty bad for your team in two ways: firstly, Misty Terrain nerfs Dragon Claw's damage output on grounded Dragon-types, which is obviously annoying for Charizard. Secondly, outside of the Aegislash I just suggested, your team doesn't really have a way to hit Tapu Fini very hard, and even with Aegislash on the team, a Tapu Fini which has a couple of Calm Minds up can shrug off a lot of attacks from your team. Thunder Punch gives Charizard a way to hit Tapu Fini super-effectively, and it's Tough Claws-boosted too. The main calculation is 132 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Fini: 174-206 (50.5 - 59.8%)—essentially, it always 2HKOs offensive CM Fini (unless people are using more than just 252/4. I'm not super certain about Tapu Fini spreads).

That said, I know you built this team around Charizard X, but I think Charizard Y is just a much better choice of a Fire-type for this slot. On this team, for example, it would give you a way to slam Fini for a lot of damage, and can exert a lot of offensive pressure in conjunction with Cresselia's Icy Wind; it also sets Sun to make Moonlight more effective, while Aegislash can protect it against Rock Slides with Wide Guard. What I'm trying to say is that it just synergises with the team far better than Charizard X does.

Summary of changes:

• Tyranitar --> Ghostium Z Aegislash
• On Charizard X, Dragon Claw --> Thunder Punch (or, Charizard X --> Charizard Y, especially if you make the above change)

Like i previously mentioned, i wasn't exactly too comfortable with dropping amoon, it just seems like too valuable a mon to drop when compared to the rest of my team. You make a lot of good points about aegislash and i have already actually been playing with it and gotta say i love it, tyranitar was good, but i still left me with trouble against some matchups such as fini lol and rock slides were always a pain in the butt for my team as well, which aegislash helps with. And aegish gives me a way to decimate other cresselias and meta's as you mentioned. All in all, an excellent suggestion and one that i fully intend to incorporate. Thanks for that.

Regarding Char X to Y ehhh lol char X is just my favorite mon, that combination of blue fire and black just looks so awesome that i can't imagine dropping him for his favorite cousin Y. I did however, adhere to your suggestions such as swapping to thunderpunch, i honestly only used DD once in a blue moon vs those salamences or when i simply didn't want recoil damage from flare blitz. I tested the calcs vs most fini spreads and it generally is usually a 2HKO unless HH boosted and maybe a +1 thrown in there. Curse you fini for your bulk!!! With the amount of Char Y's out there, i'll no doubt end up getting those moonlight boosted attacks off anyways lol Thank you for the input, helped a ton!

Next,

Small suggestion, but belly drum on zard x can throw an opponent off when they expect you to ddance, and a few flame charges or some tailwind support makes it untouchable. Pair that with some sort of cleric or redirector, and you've got a powerhouse on your hands.

Hey there! Thanks for the input, gonna have to side with bright side, i feel like belly drum is a bit too risky and kind of throws off the synergy im trying to get at with my team atm, feel like i would have to bring in different mons to make that effective.

Next,

The big issue with Belly Drum is that it cuts your health in half. Redirection isn't perfect because spread moves exist and Tailwind isn't perfect either because other forms of speed control exist, Protecting CharX's attacks, etc. It's too much risk not enough reward unlike Dragon Dance.

Alright so for another suggestion regarding the Tapu Fini:

Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 92 Def / 132 SpA / 20 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water/Dazzling Gleam
- Moonblast
- Trick/Icy Wind
- Scald

You mentioned you tried out Dazzling Gleam and liked it somewhat. I like Dazzling Gleam too, and absolutely despise Muddy Water because of its accuracy. I think I'm in the minority when I do this but I like to drop Muddy Water on Specs Fini for Dazzling Gleam because I'm usually just clicking Scald instead of Muddy Water anyway. I took the spread that Garris_san posted because it looked pretty good and put it here. I don't really find Specs Haze to be useful enough to use; I may be getting rid of some stats but then I'm just stuck clicking Haze unless I want to switch out. You've already got Redirection in Amoonguss, Knock Off in Landorus-T, and Low Kick to hit Snorlax. Trick also helps prevent some set up by locking your opponent into a set up move (lol) along with forcing your opponents into lots of nasty situations like giving Lando-T a good ole' useless Choice Specs and swapping it out for an Assault Vest to make yourself even more bulky and annoying. I've also tabbed Icy Wind as it is a strong option for Speed control; both Charizard X and Charizard Y excel with lots of Speed control allowing them to outspeed things they otherwise would not, such as Landorus-T (which may or may not be scarfed), Mega Metagross, Mega Kangaskhan (which is rarer in this meta although still exists), and so on.

The rest of the team looks pretty solid; I would go with Level 51's recommendations of running Ghostium Z Aegislash and Thunder Punch on ZardX. I do think ZardY is better than ZardX in general though I don't want to take away the focus of the team; I do believe ZardX has some nice potential in it that should be explored.

Thanks for the input! Ugh can't tell you the # of times muddy water has missed, but when HH boosted it hits pretty damn hard plus that accuracy drop chance is oh so good if it happens. It seems interesting though, trick i mean, i'll give those moves a shot and see how it works out. I've honestly only used haze a couple times so far tbh, feels like one of those things you're just safer having though as a "just in case". Like i said though i'm gonna try using HH boosted Dazz and see how that works out, seems like it'd be better just reading it since it's 100% chance to hit.



Thanks to everyone for their input! Much appreciated! Thanks for helping make my Char X team beter