CAP 4 CAP 4 - Support Moves Discussion

[Flounder]

Looks like it to me too- it doesn't look like every Pokemon though.

By that logic, there's no such thing as an "every pokemon" TM move, seeing as Magikarp doesn't learn anything via TM.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

That looks like every rock, ground, and steel type to me.

And the occasionally odd-balls like Blissey. Seriously...Blissey using SR has always bugged me.

 

[tennisace]

And the occasionally odd-balls like Blissey. Seriously...Blissey using SR has always bugged me.

She uses her fat to cover up the opponents eyes while she puts down pointy objects.

 

[Tsukikage]

Sorry if this is long, I just listed everything on serebii's page.

Obviously should get
Attract
Barrier
Captivate
Defense Curl
Double Team
Encore
Follow Me
Gravity
Helping Hand
Light Screen
Mud Sport
Poison Gas
Protect
Rain Dance
Reflect
Rest
Sand-attack
Sandstorm
Sleep Talk
Spikes
Stealth Rock
Substitute
Sunny Day
Taunt
Tickle
Toxic
Toxic Spikes

I think that it should be able to lay Spikes and Stealth Rocks, if nothing else because of its Ground Typing, and logically, if it can lay Spikes and is also part Poison, it should lay Toxic Spikes.

Borderline/Debatable
Assist
Block
Disable
Embargo
Endure
Focus Energy
Foresight
Heal Block
Lock-On
Me First
Metronome
Mimic
Recycle
Refresh
Rock Polish
Safegaurd
Snatch
Spider Web
Switcheroo
Torment
Trick
Trick Room
Withdraw
Yawn

You'll notice that there is no Roar or Whirlwind, so how will this force switches? Yawn of course!

Should Not Get (IMO)
Acid Armour
Acupressure
Agility
Amnesia
Aqua Ring
Aromatherapy
Baton Pass
Belly Drum
Bulk Up
Calm Mind
Camouflage
Charge
Charm
Confuse Ray
Conversion
Conversion 2
Copycat
Cosmic Power
Cotton Spore
Curse
Dark Void
Defend Order
Defog
Destiny Bond
Detect
Dragon Dance
Fake Tears
Featherdance
Flash
Flatter
Gastro Acid
Glare
Grasswhistle
Growl
Growth
Grudge
Gaurd Swap
Hail
Harden
Haze
Heal Bell
Heal Order
Healing Wish
Heart Swap
Howl
Hypnosis
Imprison
Ingrain
Iron Defense
Kinesis
Leech Seed
Leer
Lovely Kiss
Lucky Chant
Lunar Dance
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Mean Look
Meditate
Memento
Metal Sound
Milk Drink
Mindreader
Minimize
Miracle Eye
Mirror Move
Mist
Moonlight
Morning Sun
Nasty Plot
Nature Power
Nightmare
Odor Sleuth
Pain Split
Perish Song
Poison Powder
Power Swap
Power Trick
Psych Up
Psycho Shift
Recover
Roar
Role Play
Roost
Scary Face
Screech
Sharpen
Sing
Sketch
Skill Swap
Slack Off
Sleep Powder
Smokescreen
Softboiled
Spite
Splash
Spore
Stock Pile
String Shot
Stun Spore
Supersonic
Swagger
Swallow
Sweet Kiss
Sweet Scent
Swords Dance
Synthesis
Tail Glow
Tail Whip
Tailwind
Teeter Dance
Teleport
Thunder Wave
Transform
Water Sport
Whirlwind
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Worry Seed

 

[Fishin]

I've been throwing this out for like ever and I'll say it again, he rotate that purple mid-section like a helicopter blade thus enabling him to use Rapid Spin and Tailwind.

I'd imagine him sticking the drill in the ground and then rotating on top of that, but either way works.

Definite yes:
Trick Room
Encore
Stealth Rock
Toxic Spikes
Spikes
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Taunt
Trick
U-Turn
Gravity
Follow Me
Me First
Assist
Helping Hand
Protect

Maybe:
Light Screen
Reflect
Safeguard
Block
Haze
Wish
Heal Block
Endure
Imprison
Metronome
Disable
Agility
Yawn
Tailwind
Spider Web
Counter

No:
Heal Bell
Pain Split
Mirror Coat
Status moves (beyond Toxic, obviously)
Aromatherapy/Heal Bell

Oh, and just for the record, Magnezone can't learn Stealth Rock :/

 

[Dane]

Even though Rapid Spin is used for it's effect, are we qualifying it as a support move or an attack? I figured it would be bunched in the attack group, since it's technically an attack.

 

[X_Presumptuous]

-Refusing to bandwagon with giant tl;dr lists of moves-

I don't think Yawn really makes sense on something with 105 Speed AND Vital Spirit. It's quite far from the "laziness" flavour needed. Whirlwind or Roar would make more sense. :/

Also, Spider Web > Block. It's more unique and more explainable.

If it gets a recovery move, Slack Off makes absolutely no sense after 105 Speed + Vital Spirit. I'd suggest Morning Sun or maybe Recover ( can spiders regrow their legs? Maybe scratch off Recover ) instead. Or just not give it an instant recovery move.

 

[Dane]

If it gets a recovery move, Slack Off makes absolutely no sense after 105 Speed + Vital Spirit. I'd suggest Morning Sun or maybe Recover ( can spiders regrow their legs? Maybe scratch off Recover ) instead. Or just not give it an instant recovery move.

I'd say Moonlight out of the 50% grouping. I can imagine a spider on it's web in front of the moonlight. Can't imagine it in front of the sun. Also, as far as I'm aware Spiders cannot regrow their legs.

 

[X_Presumptuous]

I'd say Moonlight out of the 50% grouping. I can imagine a spider on it's web in front of the moonlight. Can't imagine it in front of the sun. Also, as far as I'm aware Spiders cannot regrow their legs.

Perhaps, but I think of this as more of a bouncy-jolly spider than the typical Ariados-esque night dweller.
That doesn't matter, though, because I just Googled for spider information, and apparently they can regrow bits of their legs at a time with each moulting. So although older spiders usually lose their legs for good, young ones can still regrow them. So Recover makes sense, hurray.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

can spiders regrow their legs?

Well it depends on the age of the spider. Some site say that young spiders can regrow lost limbs.

Edit: Whoops, nevermind then. Anyway Rapid Spin, Knock off, and U-turn would be considered both an utility and an attack move.

I'd imagine him sticking the drill in the ground and then rotating on top of that, but either way works.

I think that slightly better since it's need a "launch pad" before revving up.

 

[UberMunch]

I don't think I'll make a giant list that only differs from everyone else by a couple of moves.

This should NOT get tailwind. It does not make sense and there are SO many others moves that work. I don't want to sacrifice limited space for it.

I also think Block makes more sense than Spider web (sorry X). DLLs don't make webs (it seems, I may be wrong) and his giant hands look like they would BLOCK opponents from getting away.

I LIKE the idea of slack off for recovery and yawn to force switches. After looking at the other pokemon who get these moves, I noticed that there are fast pokes that get both (and Vigiroth vital spirit too). The only problem is I don't see a mouth on this thing for yawn or even roar. :(

All of the "hand moves" should be included (metronome, snatch, follow me, taunt, encore obviously, knock off, assist even, and many others). Also, this thing NEEDS me first. It is fast enough to pull it off and it makes sense. Gravity also makes sense and is a must.

 

[FlygonRuler]

I think it would be nice to give it Toxic Spikes and Spikes, but NOT Stealth Rocks. This would force it to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, giving a little mix to the metagame.

I'd also want to see the Screens, Gravity, Trick Room, and Rapid Spin.

The only thing I find debatable is Tail Wind. Not exactly flavorable, but makes Persistant slightly redundant.

 

[Fishin]

If it gets a recovery move, Slack Off makes absolutely no sense after 105 Speed + Vital Spirit.

Actually, Vigoroth (one of the few other Vital Spirit pokes) gets Slack Off, and so does Infernape, so Slack Off isn't just given to lazy Pokemon.

 

[tennisace]

So you want Yawn because Encore isn't enough to force switches? Uh-uh. This thing doesn't need yawn. Also, Vigoroth gets those from Slakoth.

I'm dead against a 50% instant recovery move on this thing. You want to give this Huge defenses, high speed, AND recovery? Stick with Wish or Rest.

About Tailwind: I'm against that too. We can change Persistant by the way, so all you people who thought that Tailwind was in because of it, start explaining why this should get such a broken move. I don't care if you say that its only 5 turns, Kingdra can sweep in Rain in that amount of time.

Block + Encore is broken, thanks Soup.

Rapid Spin and Knock Off are support moves, because do you really use them to attack?

EDIT: People, remember, the more support moves you want to give this, the less attack moves this will get. So think about what you REALLY want on this pokemon, and post accordingly.

EDIT2: Block+Encore iz bad.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Rapid Spin and Knock Off are support moves, because do you really use them to attack?

Depends how much sanity you have left.

 

[tennisace]

Depends how much sanity you have left.

For the sake of the argument and my sanity, we'll assume the person using said moves is sane, and using them to get rid of hazards or the opponents item.

 

[Dane]

The problem with classing them in with support moves is that then things start to become subjective as to where they fall. It's easier to classify them by their in-game symbol, as you can then just link to the grouping as Sunday did.

For example, would Lava Plume be support? It's only used for it's high burn rate, otherwise Flamethrower is used over it.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

For the sake of the argument and my sanity, we'll assume the person using said moves is sane, and using them to get rid of hazards or the opponents item.

When I used "you" I meant it in general, not specifically towards you. I have a few not-so-sane people use them as offensive moves in my times.

About Tailwind: I'm against that too. We can change Persistant by the way, so all you people who thought that Tailwind was in because of it, start explaining why this should get such a broken move.

We don't have to change the it. We could simply take Tailwind out of the picture while keeping Persistent effect in intact. That way, if we decided on making a Tailwind centered Pokemon in the future, we can reuse Persistent for it.

 

[tennisace]

When I used "you" I meant it in general, not specifically towards you. I have a few not-so-sane people use them as offensive moves in my times.

I know, I wasn't directing your quote towards me. I was referring to the fact that you get really technical about there kind of things and it drives me crazy sometimes =P

We don't have to change the it. We could simply take Tailwind out of the picture while keeping Persistent effect in intact. That way, if we decided on making a Tailwind centered Pokemon in the future, we can reuse Persistent for it.

True, but I really don't want Tailwind on any pokemon with Persistant. Its just too much.

 

[Elevator Music]

Uhh, do we really want to give this thing Block+Encore? There's a really good reason no pokemon gets both.

 

[tennisace]

Good point... *goes to edit post*

 

[Nasty Pass]

Uhh, do we really want to give this thing Block+Encore? There's a really good reason no pokemon gets both.

We could always make them incompatible. :D

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Block+Encore doesn't seem so broken together =/. It's not like Wobba with it's insta-Block, you can switch out into it's counter before it tries one of those moves.

I know, I wasn't directing your quote towards me. I was referring to the fact that you get really technical about these kind of things and it drives me crazy sometimes =P

That's because I love driving you crazy at times. =P

 

[tennisace]

I'm still against trapping moves completely. Thats the biggest reason people hate Wobbuffet, Duggy, and Magnezone, so why would we give it Block. Waste of a move if you ask me.

 

[xdevo13]

have the sprites been put in stone yet?,
if not that gem on it's forehead (ish) could be enlarged to make it more mystical for gravity and tailwind.