np: UU - Here It Goes Again

[kd24]

when has crotomb ever included taunt in its moveset?

tof has a good stall team, (i think i played it yesterday and dced), and he isnt always going to rely on one pokemon to win, like he said, hes gonna set up what he can, use whatever he needs to against umbreon whether it be haze, a faster taunt, whatever he has on his team (i dont know how he currently deals with it but i know tof enough to realize he takes threats like umbreon into account when building teams so im sure can) and hes ganna win with stall like he has done so far.

and all tof was trying to say was that crobats taunt was a major threat to stall and he thinks it helps stall that hes gone, nothing more. he wasnt discussing other taunters :/. you dont need to analyze his post and then blantantly insult / goat him into replying with stuff like:

Someone is rather excitable I see.... I never questioned whether or not you were a good battler m'dear, I questioned your logic and ability to articulate your thoughts, as seen here.

Perhaps this is not what you meant, but if so then you phrased your post poorly, I think we've all done that in the past, there is not much reason to start yelling at me. And, perhaps I should explain something else that you seem to have misread.

 

[ToF]

I did read your post, I get the direct implication that you are implying that Crobat's removal hinders spiritomb from setting up calm minds, which I already explained doesn't make sense as there are other taunters (like perhaps Drapion who can not only taunt but also set up spikes or SD while resisting Spiritomb's STABs.) Perhaps this is not what you meant, but if so then you phrased your post poorly, I think we've all done that in the past, there is not much reason to start yelling at me. And, perhaps I should explain something else that you seem to have misread.
Quote:

This is the last time I am replying to you in this thread. I don't understand how I poorly explained such a simple statement lol. I didn't explain much in fact, but rather just said a pretty straightforward statement. If you can't understand the simple point behind a statement, then you are reading far too into it.

"Quite easy to beat everything with the removal of the suspects from the ladder, especially Crobat who could Taunt setup moves and such. Its so cool for Spiritomb to sweep with some Calm Minds after residual damage is up."

The point made which everyone else but you seems to understand is that the removal of Crobat from the ladder allows for stall to set-up much easier because of the lack of a fast Taunt. As such, I have had great success on the ladder setting up my own Spiritomb with Calm Minds. How would Crobat's removal HINDER Spiritomb's ability to set up, that logic just doesn't make sense. Your point about external taunters was irrational and not applicable to my simple statement. Like KD already said, I felt like you were trying to start shit over what is a really simple declarative statement. That or you interpreted stuff wrong, either or.

 

[jimmyolsen]

Well, the removal of Crobat has made the leads more diverse, and Ambipom is back in his primary role of a lead.

However, there is one concern now that really scares me - Rain Dance. It was always hard to beat a good Rain Dance team, but now without Sucker Punch from Honchkrow, and Taunt from Crobat, Rain Dance is a truly terrifying sight.

As has been mentioned Absol fits the Honchkrow role as well, possibly even better than Honchkrow did. It has ever so slightly better attack and speed, and Swords Dance to be used if they are trying to mess with your Sucker Punch. The only thing Absol misses out on is Drill Peck. Sucker Punch and Super Power 1hko nearly everything and Superluck + Night slash is insane.

Toxicroak with Dry Skin is also an excellent check for Rain Dance.

Swellow and Arcanine can also serve as revenge killers. Yanmega can outspeed every swift swimmer besides Floatzel after 2 turns while 2hkoing any rain dance lead (Electrode with Soundproof can't be 2hkod if Yanmega only has the dual stab moves). Trace Gardevoir is also quite effective as it's faster than all swift swimmers other than Ludicolo, Floatzel, and Kabutops.

 

[Aerouille]

if you don't you obviously haven't created a viable team.

yes clearly I am the one trying to start shit~

Crobat was not an excellent counter to CM spiritomb, particularily compared to a myriad of other effective counters (unless I'm somehow horribly mistaken). Crobat's removal therefore will make a very minor impact on his effectiveness, particularily the fast aspect of his taunt, which you emphasized.

l-l-looks like i hjuste cant make firends..... ;-;

 

[kd24]

Crobat was not a good counter to CM spiritomb, particularily compared to a myriad of other effective counters. Crobat's removal therefore will make a very minor impact on his effectiveness, particularily the fast aspect of his taunt, which you emphasized.

1.) crobat was a good counter, able to taunt + roost against tomb until tomb eventually wasted all of its pp. with crobat, literally the most popular taunter in uu, gone, spiritomb can now feel a bit safer setting up

2.) as illustrated above, crobats removal is fairly huge, forcing new taunters to come out to stop cmtomb.

3.) if you are referring to tomb, once again "when does tomb ever use taunt"?. if referring to crobat, see point 1 again.

 

[Aerouille]

1.) crobat was a good counter, able to taunt + roost against tomb until tomb eventually wasted all of its pp. with crobat, literally the most popular taunter in uu, gone, spiritomb can now feel a bit safer setting up

2.) as illustrated above, crobats removal is fairly huge, forcing new taunters to come out to stop cmtomb.

3.) if you are referring to tomb, once again "when does tomb ever use taunt"?. if referring to crobat, see point 1 again.

Crobat isn't going to eagerly switch into a spiritomb unless he likes getting risking the burn, and after 1 CM, a Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball is going to 2HKO him after SR. So he can't switch into Spiritomb until he feels safe that tomb doesn't have will-o-wisp, and he can't switch into a dark pulse either. I am relatively certain this is not a gr9 counter bro.

 

[kd24]

+1 spiritomb vs 232/0 crobat

331 Atk vs 196 Def & 369 HP (80 Base Power): 145 - 172 (39.30% - 46.61%)

interestingly enough, crobat can still survive 2 cm dark pulses after sr if it doesnt roost. but thats not whats going to happen. instead:


turn 1: spiritomb cms as crobat switches in
turn 2: spiritomb cms again or dps, crobat taunts
turn 3: crobat roosts, finally gaining back all that lost hp (basically getting an extra 10% hp a turn if dp is doing max every turn). this becomes a cycle with crobat only stopping to refresh taunt.

yes, spiritomb could still win if taunt ends before crobat has enough hp to survive another dark pulse because then it can dp to finish or cm to get more power, but if they predict correctly (50/50 shot here of that happens), then you do lose.

now, with crobat gone, spiritomb never has to worry about prediction wars or taunt messing him up.

and lets not forget that after crobat taunts, you can just switch to something else to set up or kill tomb.

and finally, if tomb burns crobat, congrats! crobat just did its job perfectly, showing you that its not cmtomb. feel free to aromatherapy crobat with the plenty viable options at that time (roserade, chansey, shaymin) so he can wreck havoc.

edit: i also want to say, can we please drop it about crobat vs tomb aerouille, this is a thread to discuss current uu and the effect crobat's dissapearance (as well as krows and shaymins) are having on the uu metagame. if you wish to discuss this more with me, pm me on shoddy. im always willing to discuss pokemon there.

 

[Bad Ass]

crobat sure was a gr9 counter!

on topic, regirock is a fantastic lead. want to taunt it and stop sr? eat a stab stone edge. ok, so lets u turn and have regirock take some piss poor damage and get free sr. with crobat gone, arcanine and ambipom have been dominating the lead position (from my experience). explosion is like icing on the cake-taking out that troublesome poke can sometimes be the difference between a win and a loss.

 

[tubbablubba]

I am starting to see how the bulk of my team's success relied on destroying crobat and shaymin. I'm going to need to rebuild from the ground up. *puts on lab coat*

 

[Aerouille]

+1 spiritomb vs 232/0 crobat

331 Atk vs 196 Def & 369 HP (80 Base Power): 145 - 172 (39.30% - 46.61%)

interestingly enough, crobat can still survive 2 cm dark pulses after sr if it doesnt roost. but thats not whats going to happen. instead:


turn 1: spiritomb cms as crobat switches in
turn 2: spiritomb cms again or dps, crobat taunts
turn 3: crobat roosts, finally gaining back all that lost hp (basically getting an extra 10% hp a turn if dp is doing max every turn). this becomes a cycle with crobat only stopping to refresh taunt.

yes, spiritomb could still win if taunt ends before crobat has enough hp to survive another dark pulse because then it can dp to finish or cm to get more power, but if they predict correctly (50/50 shot here of that happens), then you do lose.

now, with crobat gone, spiritomb never has to worry about prediction wars or taunt messing him up.

and lets not forget that after crobat taunts, you can just switch to something else to set up or kill tomb.

and finally, if tomb burns crobat, congrats! crobat just did its job perfectly, showing you that its not cmtomb. feel free to aromatherapy crobat with the plenty viable options at that time (roserade, chansey, shaymin) so he can wreck havoc.

| Crobat | HP EV | Medium (100-150) | 39.4 |
| Crobat | HP EV | None | 28.6 |
| Crobat | HP EV | High (150-200) | 13.7 |
| Crobat | HP EV | Other (4) | < 7.4 |
only about 20% run an hp EV even close to 232, and hitting crobat with aromatherapy isn't always easy as cake. There would be no point in putting WoW on spiritomb in the first place (which 50% of the users of a pokemon that's on 10% of teams do)
I still think saying CM spritomb is going to "have a field day with crobat gone" is very overblown, but I see your point, my apologies~

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Also smart people run CM / WoW / Dark Pulse / Rest Spiritomb because it is awesome and never dies. Seriously, this set is just awesome and it is ridiculous that it never gets used.

 

[kd24]

actually sds, that set looks nice, but are there ever any situations where you really miss sleep talk? i wouldnt mind trying out that on a new team soon.

 

[Aerouille]

Also smart people run CM / WoW / Dark Pulse / Rest Spiritomb because it is awesome and never dies. Seriously, this set is just awesome and it is ridiculous that it never gets used.

Sleep Talk is a really gay move anyway. May as well stick with Fissure if you like rollin da dice.

 

[Stagnant]

Also smart people run CM / WoW / Dark Pulse / Rest Spiritomb because it is awesome and never dies. Seriously, this set is just awesome and it is ridiculous that it never gets used.

God I hate that set.

Anyways, with Crobat, Honchkrow, AND Shaymin. All I have to say is HELLO Torreterra.

With Honchkrow gone CroUxie is just awesome.

Rain Teams are always a threat but seriously use Toxicroak or Technitop. It absolutely kills Rain teams. Especially with Crobat gone.

Curse Umbreon, Regirock, and Registeel are potential threats.

Drapion has the potential to cause damage now without fear of faster revenge-killers.

Also...

Yanmega for what ever reason it was not voted a suspect is still a pain in the backside.

 

[Scoopapa]

Toxicroak is definitely a great way to counter rain teams, especially if you have something that is going to attract surfs. He's immune to all of the water STAB going around, and resists Ludicolo's grass STAB, Qwilfish's poison STAB and Kabutops' rock STAB. Recovery in rain helps him take those Stone Edges and Ice Beams, too. If you go the Poison Jab / Earthquake route, then you can OHKO Ludicolo with PJ, and 2HKO Omastar, Kabutops, and Qwilfish with EQ + Sucker Punch. The main thing he has to worry about is Qwilfish's Explosion, Gorebyss' Psychic, or taking too many predicted neutral hits (I think Omastar and Gorebyss can 2HKO with LO Ice Beam, so be careful switching in). Still, he can really hurt rain sweepers who are most often spamming their water STAB, and will help you to stall out the turns of rain.

He even scares Registeel, a common mid-game Rain Dance supporter, who can be brought down with Swords Danced Earthquakes or Cross Chop, if you go that route. Finally, a Swords Dance Toxicroak is quite useful even when he's not countering rain teams, so he's not an overspecialized team slot. He has decent speed for UU, Dark priority to cover his psychic weak, and pretty high attack. With water and Toxic immunity, he can set up well on bulky waters, which is not something a lot of physical sweepers can do.

 

[Friar]

Exclamation touched on this as well, (SD Life Orb) DRAPION!

No need for Shuca Berry anymore because Shaymin is out of the picture. Shaymin used to define UU speed, but now we don't have her, so Drapion sits pretty at 95 base speed. With great typing and one weakness, Drapion easily finds time to set up a Swords Dance and go to town on the metagame. Few can wall a +2 Night Slash that aren't also destroyed by +2 Earthquake and +2 Cross Poison. Once you get Hitmontop dead and Registeel/rock and Steelix to 50% or so, you are free to sweep. I now pack two scarfers to deal with Torterra and Drapion, now two twin terrors in a shaymin-less metagame.

 

[WJC3688]

I'm more scared of SD Absol, personally. You don't have to get Steelix down to 50% before he can sweep, because SD Superpower OHKOs the standard spreads. And no amount of scarfers will save you from Sucker Punch.

 

[Heysup]

I'm going to disagree 100% with anyone saying that Crobat's removal helped stall. It completely did the opposite. With Crobat out of the picture, offense can actually be used effectively.

In fact, you really missed out of you think otherwise, let me explain. Crobat stopped these sweepers from being effective:

Absol
Ambipom
Blaziken
Charizard
Drapion
Espeon
Feraligatr
Gardevoir
Hariyama
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Magmortar
Mismagius
Ninetales
Poliwrath
Primeape
Roserade
Sceptile
Scyther
Shaymin
Swellow
Torterra
Toxicroak
Typhlosion (specs)
Venusaur
Yanmega

Now, is losing the ability to check over half the metagame is DEFINITELY a bad thing for stall.

Without Crobat as a crutch-check for almost every sweeper in UU, stall teams have to be more well-built to work (which is how it should be, and is entirely possible). Of course stall can "set up" easier, but it can't actually "stop" every sweeper from sweeping anymore, while also stopping offense from "setting up".

Onto the metagame:

I've been experimenting (I was #1-2 for the record, but I felt like experimenting so I could get the deviation easier, it's honestly the best way) with lots of Pokemon. Here are my thoughts on each so far:

Nidoking:

Nidoking is awesome in two roles. Firstly, it's an AWESOME wallbreaker, outspeeding other wallbreakers, and being bulky enough to check Pokemon like Drapion with ease. The set I used is:

Nidoking @ Life Orb
80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Rash Nature
-Earth Power
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Superpower

This outspeeds base 80s (iirc), and gives you enough damage from superpower to KO chansey after Earth Power + Stealth Rock. It OHKOes a ton of the metagame, and 2HKOes everything it doesn't need to. Unfortunately I've moved him to my lead slot.

Nidoking makes an awesome lead too, beating LRcanine and others with ease. I simply use EQ/Sucker Punch/Taunt/Stealth Rock @ Life Orb / Focus Sash. I prefer the wall breaker however.

Blaziken:

As usual, Blaziken is doing awesome. With many Milotic now running Life Orb, the 240 Atk variants of Blaziken can actually OHKO it with Stealth Rock in play. My team has a terrible Azumarill weakness, however the most common way I get rid of them is by 2HKOing them with Superpower + Vacuum Wave.

Yanmega:

This......this is just out of control. As many checks as I have for it, it can always just hax its way out of trouble. The variant that I used in my Shellfish (LO Modest) team is the most popular I've seen.

Espeon:

LO Calm Mind Espeon with Calm Mind / Psychic / HP Ground / Signal Beam is AWESOME! The only offensive Pokemon that can stop it are basically Ambipom and Swellow. Consider this as a late game sweeper if you happened. Choice Specs Espeon is awesome as always.

Swellow:

Swellow is now awesome yet again. Without Crobat, Swellow is now the fastest Pokemon in the metagame (other than ElectrodE), as it should be, and can sweep with ease once its counters are gone. If you carry a Magneton or even something Swellow can U-turn too, Swellow can pull off easy sweeps.

Azumarill:

Not much to say, except for that Azumarill is more viable because Shaymin is gone. It annoys my team :(

Torterra:

With Shaymin gone, this thing is dangerous. Being an awesome switch-in to alot of things, such as Registeel, Steelix, and Chansey, it can easily get a Rock Polish and sweep.

Roserade:

LO Roserade is a dominant force in the metagame, Chansey can barely take a hit from it.

More to come.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm going to disagree 100% with anyone saying that Crobat's removal helped stall. It completely did the opposite. With Crobat out of the picture, offense can actually be used effectively.

In fact, you really missed out of you think otherwise, let me explain. Crobat stopped these sweepers from being effective:

(blah blah blah, removed bullshit)

Now, is losing the ability to check over half the metagame is DEFINITELY a bad thing for stall.

Without Crobat as a crutch-check for almost every sweeper in UU, stall teams have to be more well-built to work (which is how it should be, and is entirely possible). Of course stall can "set up" easier, but it can't actually "stop" every sweeper from sweeping anymore, while also stopping offense from "setting up".

I gotta figure out where you're getting whatever you're on, because honestly I'm not seeing it. Sure, Crobat was good, but to "check" something, you have to be able to switch into it. Crobat can't switch into 75% of that list, meaning the only way you're bringing Crobat in on any of those is to revenge, which means that it's already dealt with something on your team and if you're playing Stall, you probably lost already.

From my experience playing with and facing off against heavy stall, Crobat was the least of my worries. It basically just sponges Fighting, Grass, and Bug-type attacks before losing to basically everything else. Unexpected scarfers beat it, decent priority beat it, anything that can predict worth a damn beat it, and many things just beat it outright no matter what.

Basically, Crobat only checked the things on that list if you had unholy prediction and your opponent had none, because you can't threaten something that you can't come in on, and most of that list is extremely dangerous to Crobat. I mean come on, checking Specs Typhlosion? Really? How about Swellow? Or Espeon? All of these things rip Crobat a new asshole, and if your opponent is bringing Crobat into them, it's because you're terrible, not because Crobat is broken.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

actually countering means you can switch in on something. checking means that you can come in after a kill (or a set-up move at best) and then force that pokemon out. kind of a last ditch effort i guess. ie latios checks yachechomp.

so basically what that meant for stall is that you could be lax against certain threats as long as you had crobat waiting in the wings, but now you really need to cover everything.

 

[Heysup]

Yea, basically what Jabba said. Checking and Countering are different, Crobat only counters about a half of those Pokemon (not sure exactly, but that's a rough guess). Crobat does check all of those Pokemon though.

The trouble was that Crobat ONLY died if you predicted correctly with something like Blaziken, so you couldn't sweep most of the time.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's also known as terrible or what you DON'T want to do on a stall team. If your team is designed that every time Specs Typhlosion comes in, you have to sacrifice something to "check" it, you done fucked up.

 

[Heysup]

It's also known as terrible or what you DON'T want to do on a stall team. If your team is designed that every time Specs Typhlosion comes in, you have to sacrifice something to "check" it, you done fucked up.

You're missing the point SDS. The point is that Specs Tyhplosion can't sweep. Crobat is simply a crutch-check for every Pokemon, while also countering a good portion as well. For example, you'll switch Chansey into Specs Typhlosion, but if for some reason Chansey faints to another Pokemon, you have Crobat to revenge kill it so it can't sweep. Against Pokemon like Blaziken or other strong sweepers that can't be walled as easily, you may lose a Pokemon. Without Crobat or Shaymin, Blaziken can sweep a stall team much more easily, because it isnt going to be outsped and OHKOed.

What's stopping a stall team from having walls AND Crobat? Nothing. That was the problem.

 

[umbarsc]

Then they switch to their Crobat counter, then they find another opportunity to bring Typhlosion again, then they kill another Pokemon...

 

[guoguo]

You're missing the point SDS. The point is that Specs Tyhplosion can't sweep. Crobat is simply a crutch-check for every Pokemon, while also countering a good portion as well. For example, you'll switch Chansey into Specs Typhlosion, but if for some reason Chansey faints to another Pokemon, you have Crobat to revenge kill it so it can't sweep. Against Pokemon like Blaziken or other strong sweepers that can't be walled as easily, you may lose a Pokemon. Without Crobat or Shaymin, Blaziken can sweep a stall team much more easily, because it isnt going to be outsped and OHKOed.

What's stopping a stall team from having walls AND Crobat? Nothing. That was the problem.

Revenge killing is the worst idea ever if you're using a stall team. Losing a pokemon means losing defensive coverage, opening doors for other pokemon to sweep. Trading pokemon is better suited for an offensive playstyle, so you're simply playing into your opponent's hands if you do so.