Yet again, IV calculator.Did anyone read the OP?
The topic of this thread is "RNG abuse, is it cheating".
My point boiled down is "AR and RNG abuse (and yes any calculators/guides if you want to go there, but that's off topic) both require the use of external devices. Therefore if AR is "cheating" then RNG abuse is "cheating".
In today's battling arena you have to have pokes with at least near flawless stats just to be competitive at all, so I'm not saying either one is wrong, evil or whatever slur you want to call it. I'm just saying if you want to call AR "cheating" then you should probably call RNG abuse "cheating" because while they use different methods, they both use non-sanctioned external devices to acheive the exact same goal (shiny or flawless IV pokes, not L1 Jirachis). I like RNG. It is great. No argument about that. That is not what this thread is about. This thread is about is it "cheating" or is it not.
And about the Bulldozer/quick shortcut, apple/orange, #3/#16 arguments. Yes, AR is a bulldozer/apple/#3 and RNG is a quick shortcut/orange/#16, but they're both shortcuts/fruit/numbers. Are they different. Yes. RNG does not involve plugging a little black plastic thingy into your DS and physically changing the flow of electricity between the game and cartridge. But they both use non-sanctioned external devices to acheive a goal you could never achieve without them (flawless IV/shiny pokes quicker than you could breed for them). It's not that they are exactly the same. Pokesav and AR are different, but nobody would argue that they one is cheating and the other is not.
This post is already way too long.
My vote: it's cheating, but who cares. Shigeru's already got my cash!
;D XD
and BTW, riverside's post was on topic you just didn't get it.
If they were usable and stable, they'd be like any other pokémon, thus they would get banned or not depending on their strength (just like a Garchomp, but with an ugly sprite!). If they were usable on WiFi, but unstable, then they should get banned, just like Cherrim and Castform MUST be banned when you allow Glitch Weather in a battle.What if by some freakish chance MissingNo. and other glitches were to appear in HGSS/Gen V/whatever, and these glitches were usable in WiFi? Would/Should they be allowed? They were in the game without the use of external devices
They could have made the delay part a LOT more random. But they didn't. So, it's useless to try to grasp why they didn't do so. Developer intent really won't get us anywhere here.But did Nintendo expect the hardcore gamers to crack the foundation of the game, the random number ganerator?
IV calculator.Honestly, I don't think RNG abuse is cheating, but rather discouraging. I would prefer to have a 25+/25+/25+/25+/25+/25+ non-RNG abused pokemon than an RNG abused one because RNG is just a matter of exploiting numbers to get the pokemon you want(correct me if I'm wrong), and it DOES require an external device(s) to get the pokemon you want.
Prove it.The right way to play pokemon is to Soft Reset and Chain like people did in the old days.
I got a chained shiny Floatzel the other day... with RNG abuse. What does that make me ?_?In my opinion a chained shiny is much better than an RNG abused shiny...
I didn't know you worked for Game Freak.Average pokemon players are able to open up a box and get playing like the game is meant to play.
Except it wasn't a glitch. It was an algorithm that was just lying there.RNG abuse is just like figuring out a glitch in the game, which is kind of like cheating.
Whaaaat. They hear us players?
IV.The point is...Still sounds the same to me. If one's a cheat, the other's a cheat.
- AR is an external used device to get unusual results that you could get without it, just much faster
- PRNG Reporter is an external device used to get unusual results that you could get without it, just much faster
- Pokesav is an external device used to get unusual results that you could get without it, just much faster
Please remember, I'm not trying to say PRNG is "bad". I'm just trying to say it's just like AR.
Intriguing but somewhat hard to understandBased on your previous post that basically says "RNG is or is not cheating". EV training and IV breeding is NOT how, you say, what Nintendo intended to happen in their game. But it did. Why? Because of research. Now, you say RNG is cheating, because of that sole reason, that it is not "intended to be that way". EV training is cheating and IV breeding is cheating because it isn't what was intended at all. Yes Nintendo created EVs and IVs, HOWEVER, they did not expect players to actually abuse it and utilize it to make their Pokemon even stronger than usual. If you say RNG alters the game, I can safely say EV training and IV breeding alters it as well, especially the Pokemon you want.
I'd like to point out that Nintendo's been dropping hints as to IVs as far back as Stadium. In the manual, one piece of advice it gave was "catch a few of the same Pokemon, see which one best suits what it's for" or something similar, I don't have the manual anymore.I found this in site with a similar debate
Intriguing but somewhat hard to understandBased on your previous post that basically says "RNG is or is not cheating". EV training and IV breeding is NOT how, you say, what Nintendo intended to happen in their game. But it did. Why? Because of research. Now, you say RNG is cheating, because of that sole reason, that it is not "intended to be that way". EV training is cheating and IV breeding is cheating because it isn't what was intended at all. Yes Nintendo created EVs and IVs, HOWEVER, they did not expect players to actually abuse it and utilize it to make their Pokemon even stronger than usual. If you say RNG alters the game, I can safely say EV training and IV breeding alters it as well, especially the Pokemon you want.
Logic, is it true or false. Anyone? Comments?
I don't think "tournament legality" should be the driving force of thought here. Pokemon from hacked parents will also pass as legit in a tournament, but hardly anyone here approves of that. There was a thread a while back where someone tried to give away something from hacked parents, and they didn't get a very positive response.Arguing about legality is pointless in this topic. Any pokemon obtained through RNG abuse will be legitimate in a tournament. Therefore the argument in this topic is primarily whether the "unfair" advantage given to people who've taken the time to study the game's internal coding mechanisms is moral or immoral. Your argument that RNG abuse is cheating is a moral argument, not a legal one. You are, to put it bluntly, a scrub in this matter.
You answered your own question.abusing the RNG is not cheating because you are confined to the parameters of the game and thus playing by its intended rules. No data is being overwritten and no memory is being changed.
Glitches are things that are in games that can or can't be exploited that were not intended to be in the game. The RNG was intended to be in the game, otherwise everyone's Pokemon would be the same.Keep in mind , I don't think RNG abuse is necissarily cheating, but rather, discouraging and a glitch.
You still have to do the work in order to get that Pokemon to appear. In your example, the Action Replay is doing all the work--all you have to do is catch it.Ok, I was wrong about the "external device" you need anyway computer if you catch pokemon without RNG abuse to find out their IVs, I was wrong about that. But the thing about PRNG abuse is just like a program.
AR=Modifying/Generating Random Numbers.
PRNG=Exploiting to modify random numbers.
So really, AR is just a faster way of PRNG abuse. When you, let's say put an IV modifier into AR and go catch a wild pokemon that will come up 31/31/31/31/31/31, well, we know it is hacked and you're doing that the wrong way.
But when you enter some information into the RNG reporter and it gives you 31/31/31/31/31/31 it's just telling you how to cheat the game to get that spread basically.(Do X amount of journal flips) isn't this just like pressing certain buttons on an AR to get that spread? Both are telling you what to "perform" in order to get those spreads.
Keep in mind , I don't think RNG abuse is necissarily cheating, but rather, discouraging and a glitch.
To more clearly state the argument, Mr_Goodbar is saying that the means does not justify the ends. PRNG required hacking (which is unethical) to learn, and is therefore unethical, the same way people sometimes object to data obtained in unethical experiments.I'm not sure if this point has been made, but a lot of the information required to realize PRNG abuse required hacking into the game. In a world with just our Pokemon carts and nothing else, PRNG abuse wouldn't exist (besides Emerald breeding to an extent). So yes, I think it's pretty much as "hacky" as AR, pokesav, etc, the hacking was just done all at once. But mind you, I don't think gaining that knowledge was a bad thing, and if I ever got back into wifi, I would prefer abused Pokemon just for the sake of seeing it be captured/bred kinda like old school and still have a battle-ready Pokemon.
In the case of PRNG abuse you aren't doing all the work. The program is doing most of the work (calculations) and you are just doing what it told you to do (flip a coin/page X amount of times). In the case of AR, you have to look up IV codes and whatnot on the internet and then download or in some cases manually input them into your AR. The AR does most of the work, but you're still doing some. Just my opinion, but it still sounds the too similar to me.You still have to do the work in order to get that Pokemon to appear. In your example, the Action Replay is doing all the work--all you have to do is catch it.
But the hacked parents still require changing the actual game coding through AR. Using such a device is required somewhere along the path. Even still though, a pokemon bred legitimately from two hacked parents is not going to have perfect IVs.EDIT: Something else I saw here that I have issues with:
I don't think "tournament legality" should be the driving force of thought here. Pokemon from hacked parents will also pass as legit in a tournament, but hardly anyone here approves of that. There was a thread a while back where someone tried to give away something from hacked parents, and they didn't get a very positive response.
I don't have any such advices but I imagine tourney officials could check that.Also, I imagine a Pokemon that had its IVs hacked and its PID hacked to match the IV combination would get into tournaments. Is anyone here going to approve of doing that? I doubt it.
Guys, people here really want to compare EV/IV with RNG.Point is, RNG deals with values, and so does EVs and IVs. If RNG is cheating because it "manipulates" then consider EV training and IV breeding cheating, because it also manipulates. EV training and IV breeding is also external because you deal with math, in the same way this RNG does it. EVs were there ever since and so were IVs. Players discovered it and abused it. Nintendo didn't expect it and had to deal with it. RNG is a rather recent discovery, and it will follow the same flow. RNG has been there ever since and the players did one hell of a research. And so far, I see nothing about Nintendo making a fuss out of it.
And about the "timing" part, that can't be compared with critical hits. Because critical hits are done in the midst of battle. I doubt your Pokemon will live long enough to get every single Thunder attack hit with 100% accuracy.
Anyway, I conclude this debate with the following statements: RNG is by no means a hack, a glitch, or a cheat. It gives advantage, yes, but in a LEGAL and LEGITIMATE way as compared to Pokesav and Action Replay. In the same way we can say IV breeding and EV training gives advantage as well over those who play the game as "it was intended" to be played.
I leave it to the audience to determine who's logic is actually flawed here.