Eviolite

[Toby]

Is it enought to outclass leftovers however? :S

 

[Obesity]

By the way, I double-checked the damage calculations, and it turns out I made a mistake. The 1.5x boost applies to all NFE Pokémon, including middle-stage ones.

Excellent.

252 Sp. Atk Modest Life Orb Mewtwo's Fire Blast vs.

252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful Pre-Evolution Stone Porygon2: 28.1% - 33.2%
252 HP/252 Sp. Def Careful LUGIA: 26.9% - 31.7%

Lol what is this i don't even knowwwwww

 

[Rykard]

Is it enought to outclass leftovers however? :S

quoting this because you bring up a very good point. for example, walls are often statused because they are incredible defensive threats and will easily be worn down with toxic and will-o-wisp. Because of this, if makes choosing between an NFE pokemon with greater defenses but less attack and a fully evolved pokemon with leftovers, greater attack/speed but less defense a difficult one. However in my opinion, if the NFE pokemon has a recover move like wish or recover, it will more often than not be the better choice

 

[Random Rider]

Is it enought to outclass leftovers however? :S

Of course, that is the big question. IMO, its greatest flaw is its predictability. When your opponent sends out Munchlax, you can probably guess it's holding pre-evolution stone. If your opponent sends out Snorlax, there's always the possibility of Choice Band or Life Orb.

 

[Bologo]

lol

Anyway another, Dusclops now out classes Dusknoir and Desukan (New Ghost) in every way except offense. I never dreamed that just 1 thing to effect the entire metagame enough to make evos worse than their prevos.

HAIL TO YOUR NEW SPIN BLOCKER!

Heh, well Dusclops and Shanderaa of course. xD

It's interesting to note just how much better Dusclops takes hits than Dusknoir with the preevo stone on:

Look at these calcs -

252 SpA Hasty Rayquaza LO Draco Meteor vs.

252 HP/252 SpD Careful Dusknoir = 65.6% - 77.6%
252 HP/0 SpD Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 62.3% - 73.2%

Dusclops, without even touching his Special Defense, takes this particular hit better than a Dusknoir who's dumped all of his EVs into HP and Special Defense.

Looking at the physical side:

252 Atk Jolly ScarfChomp Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusknoir = 39.1% - 46.3%
252 HP/252 Def Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 27.8% - 33.1%

Basically, Dusclops is shrugging this hit off, taking what's basically a 4HKO and he's able to Pain Split it off rather easily. Dusknoir, however, is looking at a 2HKO with Stealth Rock up.

According to my calculations, Dusclops is taking hits only 3% worse than Giratina-A, who has 150/120/120 defenses. He even takes hits just slightly better than 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia. Pretty awesome in my opinion, since Dusclops's craptastic HP helps him a lot with Pain Split, since he's basically working with 40/219/219 defenses after the preevo stone boost.

EDIT: I guess I should back up the Giratina/Cresselia thing with calcs, just to make sure everyone understands what I'm saying:

Jolly ScarfChomp Earthquake vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Giratina = 20.8% - 24.6%
252 HP/252 Def Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 23.6% - 27.8%

Jolly ScarfChomp Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusclops = 27.8% - 33.1%
252 HP/252 Def Bold Cresselia = 28.4% - 33.3%

 

[Obesity]

Holy crap I just thought about Shelgon and Lairon. This looks fun.

quoting this because you bring up a very good point. for example, walls are often statused because they are incredible defensive threats and will easily be worn down with toxic and will-o-wisp. Because of this, if makes choosing between an NFE pokemon with greater defenses but less attack and a fully evolved pokemon with leftovers, greater attack/speed but less defense a difficult one. However in my opinion, if the NFE pokemon has a recover move like wish or recover, it will more often than not be the better choice

True, but there are a few counters to this. There are a nice handful of NFE Pokemon that have access to attacks such as Refresh (See Chansey, Lickitung, Metang, Magneton, Munchlax) or Psycho Shift (Togetic says LOLSILLYMORTAL). Also it's not like we're playing 1v1. We have 5 other Pokemon that could provide Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support.

 

[Rykard]

True, but there are a few counters to this. There are a nice handful of NFE Pokemon that have access to attacks such as Refresh (See Chansey, Lickitung, Metang, Magneton, Munchlax) or Psycho Shift (Togetic says LOLSILLYMORTAL). Also it's not like we're playing 1v1. We have 5 other Pokemon that could provide Heal Bell/Aromatherapy support.

good point! i was thinking more linearly than the big picture =)

 

[Scythemantis]

It is very much a hold item that does not get used up, not something like X Attack. I'm pretty sure Wichu would have known whether or not it was a hold item when he was testing it.

He didn't say what type of item it was anywhere in this thread, and I hadn't seen anything about it in any other thread except where it appeared to not be a hold item. Hence why I said "last I heard," which means "I could be wrong, but that was my understanding." Did you really need the sarcastic attitude and impatient italics?

 

[CTNC]

Heh, well Dusclops and Shanderaa of course. xD

It's interesting to note just how much better Dusclops takes hits than Dusknoir with the preevo stone on:

Look at these calcs -

252 SpA Hasty Rayquaza LO Draco Meteor vs.

252 HP/252 SpD Careful Dusknoir = 65.6% - 77.6%
252 HP/0 SpD Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 62.3% - 73.2%

Dusclops, without even touching his Special Defense, takes this particular hit better than a Dusknoir who's dumped all of his EVs into HP and Special Defense.

Looking at the physical side:

252 Atk Jolly ScarfChomp Outrage vs.

252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusknoir = 39.1% - 46.3%
252 HP/252 Def Impish Preevo Stone Dusclops = 27.8% - 33.1%

Basically, Dusclops is shrugging this hit off, taking what's basically a 4HKO and he's able to Pain Split it off rather easily. Dusknoir, however, is looking at a 2HKO with Stealth Rock up.

According to my calculations, Dusclops is taking hits only 3% worse than Giratina-A, who has 150/120/120 defenses. He even takes hits just slightly better than 252 HP/252 Def Cresselia. Pretty awesome in my opinion, since Dusclops's craptastic HP helps him a lot with Pain Split, since he's basically working with 40/219/219 defenses after the preevo stone boost.

o_0 I'm actually thinking that Pokemon may become Uber because they're too defensive... or the Pre-Evolution Stone may become ban in NU, UU, BL, and OU...

 

[ΩDonut]

He didn't say what type of item it was anywhere in this thread, and I hadn't seen anything about it in any other thread except where it appeared to not be a hold item. Hence why I said "last I heard," which means "I could be wrong, but that was my understanding." Did you really need the sarcastic attitude and impatient italics?

Completely. We have a research thread dedicated to finding out game mechanics, and it should be required reading for anyone who plans on discussing whether something will have an impact on the metagame or not.

I think you messed up your calculations, I double checked and Duclops with pre-evolution stone takes hits 19.383% worse than Giratina. Dusclops has minimum defenses of 98124 while Giratina has minimum defenses of 121716.

Multiplying all the HP\Def\SpDef stats together is not how you determine whether how well something takes hits.

Also you don't apply boosts directly to the base stats. You apply them to the actual stats, which are not proportional to base stats.

 

[Obesity]

I see why you messed up. Dusclops with a 1.5 times boost has effective defenses of 40/202/202 not 40/219/219

....

Why not just use the +1 Def/+1 Sp. Def function on the calc, since it's raising it 50% each? Please tell me all my calcs haven't been done wrong.

o_0 I'm actually thinking that Pokemon may become Uber because they're too defensive... or the Pre-Evolution Stone may become ban in NU, UU, BL, and OU...

No, this is perfect. Nintendo gave us a HUGE supply of sweepers and powerful attacks this generation, but balanced it out by making dozens upon dozens of NFE Pokemon viable as walls. The hindsight was amazing IMO.

 

[Full_Korbe]

A 252/252 + Porygon 2 can always take a Ononokusu +2 Jolly LO Outrage and launches T-Wave.
He has awesome defences on both sides of the spectrum (374/459/339) and he can even clean his status in switching in Starmie or other Natural Cure-mons.

I can't wait to try Porygon 2, he even has a respectable Atk Spé.

Gigear can also use him decently...

 

[Bynine]

So Dusclops may be the only Pokemon that has ever been replaced by an evolution, then in the next generation became better than its evolution?!

 

[mudkipmanxp5]

Porygon2 would've loved this in gen 4 when all gyarados and salamence had were intimidate. These pokemon are more likely to choose Overconfidence now, which hinders P2's niche a bit, but i think the stone will make up for it, P2 could be an actual wall now instead of a glue pokemon tht could stop specific threats.

 

[Thorhammer]

Porygon2 would've loved this in gen 4 when all gyarados and salamence had were intimidate. These pokemon are more likely to choose Overconfidence now, which hinders P2's niche a bit, but i think the stone will make up for it, P2 could be an actual wall now instead of a glue pokemon tht could stop specific threats.

Not that likely, especially with Salamence currently being unable to have both Outrage and Overconfidence on the same set. Porygon2 will have plenty of fun with this.

 

[Rykard]

i could see dragonair getting a lot of use in lower tiers because of this item coupled with it's ability shed skin. it would be able to rest off damage it takes while setting up dragon dances and stuff

 

[Boondocker]

Losing leftovers recovery on defensive pokes is a HUGE blow. Not only do you lose the recovery but you lose the ability to cancel out sandstorm. Chansey's recovery move will be worn down much faster then blisseys and in a stall war that is not a good thing. IMO the only things that will use this in ou are gligar and porygon2. Oh and maybe elactabuzz, but he isnt that good.

 

[Garganator]

By the way, I double-checked the damage calculations, and it turns out I made a mistake. The 1.5x boost applies to all NFE Pokémon, including middle-stage ones.

Oh gosh, oh YES baby ! You made my day ;). Say hello to Porygon2 - probably one of the best (if not the best) mixed walling tank in game ;).

So I don't need to change first post in this thread ;). When I'll start playing B&W my first team will be heavy stall based around Porygon2 and Gligar, and the funniest thing is that it's gonna be competitive with 2 NFE in it ;).

quoting this because you bring up a very good point. for example, walls are often statused because they are incredible defensive threats and will easily be worn down with toxic and will-o-wisp. Because of this, if makes choosing between an NFE pokemon with greater defenses but less attack and a fully evolved pokemon with leftovers, greater attack/speed but less defense a difficult one. However in my opinion, if the NFE pokemon has a recover move like wish or recover, it will more often than not be the better choice

Well, it depends. Sometimes this recovery from Leftovers is just crucial and for example IMO better choice still is Blissey then Chansey, especially if Sandstorm is up. Chansey won't enjoy loosing 6% on each turn from Sandstorm, while Blissey doesn't loose those HP here, so in longer run less damage takes Blissey. However if you feel that your team needs special wall and you take a bit too much from physical hits (and you don't want to destroy team synergy), while you need this special walling niche - go with Chansey.

But in other situations IMO I would choose all of time NFE Pokemon, maybe with exceptions of Gligar/Gliscor (Gliscor is much more offensive, while it may take a hit, easier finding place in more versitale teams, Gligar looks like pure stall Pokemon in this moment, as he needs help of entry hazards to do any serious damage) and Dusclops/Dusknoir (again, Leftovers). And ironically we may see the situation, where Munchlax lands in OU being superior Curser and RestTalker, while Snorlax is reduced only to offensive/choice band niche :P.

I don't think this will see much use in the Little Cup. I think it will get ban from the little cup. Just saying...

I totally agree. I know, we may only theorymon, but imagine Curse Munchlax with it in Little Cup... I can't imagine any LC Pokemon except really strong Fighting types to break through Munchy. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would look like this.

I mean, i beleive that with this item it gets, like, 300 defenses on both sides. That's HUGE for a sweeper.

The funniest thing is if you can keep SR off the field, Scyther may pretty much be played as a wall (with great speed also), as he has great typing for this except this Rock weakness.

Anyway another, Dusclops now out classes Dusknoir and Desukan (New Ghost) in every way except offense. I never dreamed that just 1 thing to effect the entire metagame enough to make evos worse than their prevos.

And Dusclops is the only one, which may handle Life Orb Starmie, while not investing into SpD EVs (Burunkeru is close, however Thunderbolt/Thunder hurts and Dusknoit must sacrifice his important physical bulk), so you may still pack Max HP/Max Def EVs and stop many physical attackers, while not loosing against special based Rapid Spinners.

And my similarly beloved Venonat could be amazing as a baton passer with much bigger defenses than Venomoth!

And Venonat has superior ability in CompoundEyes so you may ABUSE Toxic Spikes with 97% accuracy Sleep Powder + Stun Spore ;). And Venonat has access to Morning Sun, so you also have recovery. Hmm... another interesting NFE, especially for lower tiers ;).

Anyway guys, I'll upload first post soon with new Pokemon. If you could - please post your ideas on sets and I'll add them. It'll make my job easier, thanks a ton ;).

 

[Thorhammer]

Losing leftovers recovery on defensive pokes is a HUGE blow. Not only do you lose the recovery but you lose the ability to cancel out sandstorm. Chansey's recovery move will be worn down much faster then blisseys and in a stall war that is not a good thing. IMO the only things that will use this in ou are gligar and porygon2. Oh and maybe elactabuzz, but he isnt that good.

A huge blow, perhaps, but nowhere close to as huge as the benefit.

 

[Rykard]

Dragonair @ PES
Impish Nature
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP/128 Def/128 SpDef

- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave/Protect

Basically, a double status phaser with great toxic stalling abilities.

 

[Siggu]

Doryuuzu can completely wall that set, being immune to both Toxic and Thunder Wave. However, even while resisting Dragon Tail, you can get rid of him easily as soon as he isn't the last pokémon remaining

 

[petrie911]

If Dusclops goes for maximum mixed bulk, he's got effectively 40/212/212 defenses. Check it using X-act's defensive EV calculator

+1/+1 252/160/96+ Dusclops has 284/504/528 defenses.

252/176/80+ Hypotheticalmon has 284/504/528 defenses.

Those defensive stats are pretty damn amazing. Maximum mixed bulk Cresselia is only 1% better defensively, and maximum mixed bulk Dusknoir is 40% worse (wow).

Let's look at a potential moveset

Dusclops@Prevo Stone
(Any +sdef except Gentle)
252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef
Night Shade
Seismic Toss
Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
Pain Split

Dusclops' godawful attack isn't as much of a problem when you can burn things and do instant 100 damage to anything. High HP sub users would be a problem though. Pain Split should let it recover lots of HP.

 

[howabe]

Sorry if I'm asking for repetition, but I just wanted to clarify...
Does it boost the Base Stats before nature/EVs are calculated, or does it boost the final total after all pre-existing increases have been added to the stats?

 

[Missingno. Master]

Phione is considered a Legendary by GameFreak

It most certainly is not. The HeartGold and SoulSilver guidebook made by the OFFICIAL Pokemon company claims that Phione is NOT a legendary. I'm thinking that trumps anything Gamefreak might say. And even if it doesn't, GameFreak hasn't said anything about Phione's legendary status or lack thereof.

Anyway, this item is looking pretty sweet. I use a Curse Munchlax that could really benefit from this. And my Shelgon... And my Dragonair... Oh good lord, my Wynaut.

And my brother's going to love this. His favorite Pokemon is Eevee. Now he has a reason to do something with it.

 

[petrie911]

Oh, I almost forgot one. Magneton. Magnezone is the way to go it you want to run Scarf, but Magneton should give it a run for its money as a Steel Killer. It trades 10 Sp.Atk for 10 Speed, and gets better defenses.