R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

[purple crobatchop]

So the intention of Game Freak making this? I guess:

1. Closer to anime? I really don't know. Perhaps it works like how Ash beats Dragonite with Pikachu?

2. Change. Self-explanatory really.

3. Reduce surprise/gimmick. Actually you would kind of know whether the team is stall or offensive from the first two turns or so.

Again, I these are my GUESSES, not PREDICTIONS.

 

[Aqueos]

Sleep Clause, Selfdestruct Clause, and Item Clause have a basis in the Stadium / Battle Revolution games IIRC, where they are automatically enforced in certain modes. I think Selfdestruct Clause (where the user of self-KO moves automatically loses if it KOs the last member of each team) is automatically enforced in BW now that you mention it. It wasn't in DP.


Personally, I'm willing to give this a shot even though it seems like it might hurt my monotype teams.

Pbr kinda came after the 4th gen started. This is going to add a lot of luck to what happens when you choose a lead. In any case we randomly added soul dew clause and that wan't there. We do what we want.

 

[ShinyAzelf]

There's no more surprise now. People will know your team before the battle even starts, and it'd be easier to predict, since you know all the pokemons already.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

There's no more surprise now. People will know your team before the battle even starts, and it'd be easier to predict, since you know all the pokemons already.

I disagree. It will be harder to predict now. Since most well built team will have multiple counters to pokemon, now you have to decide which of the two three pokemon is the other person going to switch to, or is he just going to switch predicting you to predict a switch? It can get very confusing with this. IMO it's more difficult to predict. Or maybe i'm just not used to it.

 

[lmitchell0012]

All these changes in game mechanics are just SOO gay!!! They should have at least made it an option to turn off the rule where your whole team is revealed at the start of a match.

 

[jchen]

Use a different team then? If you thought every useable strategy from 4th gen would translate to 5th gen completely intact, you were mistaken. There are 83 new fully evolved pokemon and 92 new moves introduced with this generation, surely with that you can come up with something else to use?

And if not, well...you can still continue playing DP as easily as someone who doesn't like 4th gen could stick with ADV.

...
a "strategy" is not something that should be completely invalidated off the bat. there are pokemon that defeat certain strats easily, but to declare the entire thing invalid based off a game mechanic is going to far. its not whether they would translate intact, its that they have become completely unplayable in any sense.

possible strats to base teams around: Weather teams, Balanced, Heavy Offense, Stall, Baton pass, gravity, trick room, wonder room or whatever the new thing is. thats basically all you can possibly do in the game.

Heavy offense, baton pass, and trick room teams are completely dead with this change.

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

This sounds pretty interesting to me, also lawl @ the people claiming they'll quit pokemon or shoddy if this is implemented.

No way is skill being taken away, if anything all this does is change the game like all generation changes do. Adapt or die, simple as that.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Pbr kinda came after the 4th gen started. This is going to add a lot of luck to what happens when you choose a lead. In any case we randomly added soul dew clause and that wan't there. We do what we want.

Soul Dew Clause also has a basis in the games: The item has absolutely no effect when used in the 4th gen Battle Tower/Frontier. It is also prohibited in official tournaments.

Heavy offense, baton pass, and trick room teams are completely dead with this change.

I don't see Trick Room becoming any less effective in doubles than it was in 4th gen because of this. It wasn't exactly useful in singles in the first place.

 

[SirHandsome6]

Gah, why Gamefreak didn't implement it as an option to turn off is beyond me...

Because they think its healthy for the game and want the game to go in that direction. Did they add options to turn off special/physical split, EVs, natures, and abilities, or items? No, instead they let you play previous gens if you dont like the new direction

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

The only thing that will transpire if Shoddy simply ignores the change is that Shoddy will form an alternative, side-metagame with little relevance to competitive battling as it will be seen in tournaments and over Wi-Fi. Smogon will be sidelined as the definitive Pokemon battling 'academy' by simple virtue of the fact that most of its articles will be dedicated to a metagame which the bulk of battlers do not play, and will not ever play.

There isn't even any point. The fact is that eventually - if not by the next generation, then the one to come - the roster of effective Pokemon is simply going to be too large for anyone to make any kind of informed decision about the likely makeup of an opponent's team unless they've already seen it. We are currently able to make our game-changing 'predictions' because of the limited number of Pokemon at our disposal. We can attempt to divine the character of an opponent's team, and hence which attacks to use against certain unrevealed elements in it, precisely because there are only a few Pokemon that fulfill a given function.

We know what the likely walls are going to be. We know what the likely sweepers are going to be. We know what's probably going to be used to block our Rapid Spin. What happens when in each of those categories, there are 5-6 different Pokemon with completely different elemental strengths and weaknesses on offer?

Simple: we can't predict any more.

Not unless we've seen the opponent's team.

 

[Coram_Boy]

Gah, why Gamefreak didn't implement it as an option to turn off is beyond me... I love playing PBR, and I run mostly unconventional teams as is, but, as everyone has said, this removes a bit of the surprise factor within wifi matches.
Scouting will now pertain more towards movesets as opposed to the pokemon themselves.
Now, someone may have said this already, but the result could be that Leads will come in pairs. Upon seeing the opponent's team, you may want to send out something like Ambipom as opposed to the Azelf you're packing.
Anti-Leads probably won't be nearly as effective now, however.

But hey, the Gen V metagame is in its early stages of life, so we'll see what happens.

unless I've missed something, you don't get the chance to pick the order of your team in Wifi battles (unlike PBR), do you?
edit: whoops, I have missed something ~_~. Anyway, anti-leads were mostly ineffective before (despite the fact I used one all the time), so there shouldn't be so much of a change there. I don't particularly like the idea of being able to send out anyone as a lead, but them's the changes, I guess.

 

[DChiuch]

If Shoddy 2 enforce this I will stop playing pokemon.
Wtf does Gamefreak think? Oh lets show all 6 Pokemon and not only this we will fuck it up even more with the feature to change your lead pokemon..
n/c..

This is an amazingly convincing argument, restating the change and asking what Gamefreak thinks, without any reason at all as to why we should hate it. Got me convinced.

 

[UltraStorm]

I disagree. It will be harder to predict now. Since most well built team will have multiple counters to pokemon, now you have to decide which of the two three pokemon is the other person going to switch to, or is he just going to switch predicting you to predict a switch? It can get very confusing with this. IMO it's more difficult to predict. Or maybe i'm just not used to it.

You have more information to base your predictions on and thus, prediction involves less luck. It's one thing to choose out of a few possibilities compared to all possibilities for unrevealed pokemon. It rewards skilled players for thinking harder about their prediction instead of random guessing.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Options options options. We're all talking about how we should have had more "options" about how we're able to play this game, but in the DS versions that's just not going to happen...

Do you think that maybe shoddy will give us the options to turn some of these new mechanics off before entering a battle??

 

[Naxte]

Options options options. We're all talking about how we should have had more "options" about how we're able to play this game, but in the DS versions that's just not going to happen...

Do you think that maybe shoddy will give us the options to turn some of these new mechanics off before entering a battle??

Not if we can't turn them off in-game, as Shoddy Battle/Pokemon Lab strives to represent the game accurately (to this end, it was being planned to program-in the Acid Weather glitch if it was still there in the 5th gen. As it turns out, it's not, so it's not really a problem, but the point is that Shoddy does try to represent the game accurately, and not just how we want it to be). Therefore, if you can't turn it off in-game, you won't be able to turn it off in Pokemon Lab.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Not if we can't turn them off in-game, as Shoddy Battle/Pokemon Lab strives to represent the game accurately (to this end, it was being planned to program-in the Acid Weather glitch if it was still there in the 5th gen. As it turns out, it's not, so it's not really a problem, but the point is that Shoddy does try to represent the game accurately, and not just how we want it to be). Therefore, if you can't turn it off in-game, you won't be able to turn it off in Pokemon Lab.

Yeah, I had a feeling they had some sort of a policy regarding that kind of stuff, but what they have to realize is that this isn't just some little change that a couple of people want just to make the game better. This is HUGE. Ever since pokemon games have come out you've always had to scout. This takes scouting away completely, and when you take away scouting you take away a big part of the metagame. I hope they'll at least consider making an exception to their policy.

 

[Bomberman]

No way is skill being taken away, if anything all this does is change the game like all generation changes do. Adapt or die, simple as that.

I agree, that's what happens everytime with almost everything that's changing. For me it's ok, being able to figure a plan earlier is great.

 

[Thorhammer]

Not if we can't turn them off in-game, as Shoddy Battle/Pokemon Lab strives to represent the game accurately (to this end, it was being planned to program-in the Acid Weather glitch if it was still there in the 5th gen. As it turns out, it's not, so it's not really a problem, but the point is that Shoddy does try to represent the game accurately, and not just how we want it to be). Therefore, if you can't turn it off in-game, you won't be able to turn it off in Pokemon Lab.

You can't turn off Evasion moves in the game itself.

Shoddy is close to the original game, but it never has to match it exactly.

 

[The_Reaper]

Ugh, im not looking forward to writing down 6 pokemons every game because i forget easily :(

 

[Ice-eyes]

It takes out the element of predicting what is on your opponent's team given what you've seen so far. You can't hide sweepers any more. Some strategies are largely invalidated. However, it does add an extra dimension to early-game mind warfare. I don't know, really, at first I didn't like it much but I want to see just how much it impacts the metagame before I judge.

 

[lilyhollow]

You can't turn off Evasion moves in the game itself.

Shoddy is close to the original game, but it never has to match it exactly.

You can disallow players from using Evasion moves without breaking game mechanics. Arguably you can disallow players from looking at eachother's teams, too, but whether or not that's actually a good idea is certainly debatable.

 

[Naxte]

You can't turn off Evasion moves in the game itself.

Shoddy is close to the original game, but it never has to match it exactly.

You can however prevent Pokemon with Evasion moves from being allowed into battle (pretty much, it's the same exact deal as an Ubers banlist) or disqualify people and give them an instant loss if they attempt to use one (which I believe is how Pokemon Lab plans on handling stuff like Sleep and Evasion clause, as it's more in line with the actual game mechanics. As they're implemented in Shoddy Battle, they're more reminiscent of Soul Dew clause in the Battle Tower than anything, but in any case, people like Colin agreed that Shoddy Battle's Sleep Clause mechanics and the like aren't exactly in line with the mechanics of the game itself, which is why they changed how they work for Pokemon Lab, to make them more defensible). Either way, both are perfectly valid clauses, especially using the former interpretation.

Seeing Pokemon though is a mechanic of a battle mode--you can turn it off no more than you can make Tackle's Base Power 150 or, for a slightly more accurate comparison, make Water-type attacks Super-effective on Grass-types. That's why it would have to be implemented--unlike Double Team, you can't simply prevent it from being a part of a battle or disqualify it for appearing or anything. It's a part of the battle no matter what (unless you assume the player's are closing their eyes while it's shown for some reason, or rather, due to the team-order-selection screen, that some judge just comes in and selects both player's teams using the order they had to begin with, but in that case, what's the difference between doing that and assuming the judges also play the first turn for you or whatever? The clause would have no purpose but to, in a completely arbitrary manner, ignore a mechanic that people don't like, and simple dislike is not a strong enough reason to create such a clause/assumption), so if Pokemon Lab ends up simulating a mode where this effect is present, it has to simulate it just as much as it does Vileplume being Grass/Poison-type.

 

[Thorhammer]

You can disallow players from using Evasion moves without breaking game mechanics. Arguably you can disallow players from looking at eachother's teams, too, but whether or not that's actually a good idea is certainly debatable.

It's the same effect either way. You're changing an aspect of the game that could be changed all the same through an agreement by the players.

I never said it was a good idea. However, it's an idea that must be tested in order to figure out whether or not it's a good idea. If the metagame is better off without this feature, then it should be removed by any means necessary.

 

[Naxte]

It's the same effect either way. You're changing an aspect of the game that could be changed all the same through an agreement by the players.

I never said it was a good idea. However, it's an idea that must be tested in order to figure out whether or not it's a good idea. If the metagame is better off without this feature, then it should be removed by any means necessary.

However, this leads to the same reason Stealth Rock never got tested in 4th gen, despite their being some clamor for such a test (and despite myself having been a supporter of such a test, I did have to agree with this reasoning): how do you define "better"? Just like in a Stealth Rock test, where the Standard ladder would maintain it but a Suspect ladder would be set-up without it, the meta-games would just be different from each other--different Pokemon and strategies would be prevalent, some Pokemon might be broken that wouldn't be otherwise and some broken Pokemon may no longer be so. The result though will be that the metagames would just be different from each other--neither one would be inherently better than the other and which one to go with would just depend on stuff such as each individual's philosophy on what the ideal metagame should be like, which doesn't have much to do with testing.

Since such would be the case, it would be pointless to test them, as unlike with whether or not Pokemon are broken, where there's typically a clear answer, no such answer could be arrived at through testing this, as you won't get an answer of whether or not it's broken (as it's just a game mechanic)--the resulting metagames would just be different from each other. That being so, a test of this is needless, and as it would come down to a question of preference regardless, it's just something that we need to skip right to making a decision on whether or not the modes that have this should be simulated, and go from there, really.

 

[Thorhammer]

However, this leads to the same reason Stealth Rock never got tested in 4th gen, despite their being some clamor for such a test (and despite myself having been a supporter of such a test, I did have to agree with this reasoning): how do you define "better"? Just like in a Stealth Rock test, where the Standard ladder would maintain it but a Suspect ladder would be set-up without it, the meta-games would just be different from each other--different Pokemon and strategies would be prevalent, some Pokemon might be broken that wouldn't be otherwise and some broken Pokemon may no longer be so. The result though will be that the metagames would just be different from each other--neither one would be inherently better than the other and which one to go with would just depend on stuff such as each individual's philosophy on what the ideal metagame should be like, which doesn't have much to do with testing.

Since such would be the case, it would be pointless to test them, as unlike with whether or not Pokemon are broken, where there's typically a clear answer, no such answer could be arrived at through testing this, as you won't get an answer of whether or not it's broken (as it's just a game mechanic)--the resulting metagames would just be different from each other. That being so, a test of this is needless, and as it would come down to a question of preference regardless, it's just something that we need to skip right to making a decision on whether or not the modes that have this should be simulated, and go from there, really.

We have certain settings, clauses, etc. that we consider "standard". This can be another one of those things, whichever way it turns out.