if u make a tier where there is no weather allowed... it would pretty much guarantee that the original tier would be weather only... sure a few people here and there will want to see how their non weather team stacks up against the weather teams, but for the most part that tier will become almost ALL weather (although i must admit more than half of the teams i face on wifi are already weather teams). personally i dont think that will be good for the metagame as a whole... it will likely change so much in regards to what is ou and whats not... i am pretty sure the community as a whole doesnt feel like redoing everything up to this point. Thats just my humble opinion though
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Thanks for responding to that part only.
Thanks for responding at all, though, as well.
ok well then.... here we go!!!
complete opinion.... personally i like using weather teams some times, and a feel a special sense of accomplishment when creating a non-weather team that can beat MOST weather teams (I dont think any team can beat ALL teams).
You cant compare it at all... things were alot different... there were different moves... pokes werent so strong, and certain abilities change the way the game is played...
Well... if you complain about a defensive core destroying you... then you should probably rethink your team makeup.. every poke/team has its weaknesses. Although in all fairness, i hate pure stall teams... I dont mind those occasional single pokes who's job is to stall, but when the entire team is stall it just feels boring... its breakable but boring. Once again though thats just an opinion... there are those out there who just LOVE stall. I am not one of them
There!
This is kinda a load of trash you're talking.
Gen 4 Sand: Did some minor passive damage, to anything not Ground, Rock or Steel typed. Gave Rock types a x1.5 boost to Special Defense, which, in OU terms... it was Tyranitar only who could make use of it.
Gen 5 Sand: Does all of what Gen 4 Sand did, but also becomes a far more active weather due to Excadrill, and, to some extent, Landorus. There is also another pokemon, Terrakion, that can actually use the Sp.Def boost from Sand. In addittion, to screws with Sun and Rain.
However, I am of the opinion, and have been since the word go, that the problems with Sand are Garchomp and Excadrill. Everything else is OK, and banning those two would allow Sand to remain in OU.
Just like, since the word go, I've been for banning Politoad over Drizzle, and, in the unlikly event that we need to do so, Ninetails over Drought. Banning the ability itself opens the floodgates for people to start saying "Unban Blaziken with Speed Boost pl0x", even though the simple argument is Drizzle and Drought themselves are broken, while Speed Boost is only broken on Blaziken.
In all honesty, I think Rain's had too many nerfs as it is to even think about keeping it now, when it's so powerful that things like Gastrodon are moving to OU to check it. It's already had one pokemon banned, and a whole abililty banned in tandem [Which I see as soft-banning Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, ect]. Hell, I think if SS+Drizzle was suddenly reverted, Drizzle would be emergancy banned now, because people now have the brains to do more than spam 3 Swift Swimmers, Ferrothorn, and Filler.
Sun hasn't had a fair test, and may be salvageable by banning, say, Volcarona, and Sand is easily able to be kept by banning Excadrill.
Seriously, in three, maybe even two, bans, I think we could re-introduce a pokemon [Manaphy], and keep three of the weathers but not so powerful that they dominate everything else.
Why would you even assume that? There's a reason nobody really uses Damp Rock Rain Dance in DPP. It's not a very good strategy.
I don't see why everyone hates weather being in this metagame so much. I feel as if weather is a part of DPP. We should ban the broken parts of it; not the entirety of it.
I don't see why everyone hates weather being in this metagame so much. I feel as if weather is a part of DPP. We should ban the broken parts of it; not the entirety of it.
Because the broken part of weather is not the abilities boosted by it, but the Auto part in it. If we ban sand rush, snow cloak, etc. then nobody will use weather period, but if we ban the broken part, the no set-up turn and infinite weather part, then we give a fair chance to those who want to play fairly to use these abilities provided they fight to keep it up.
Besides, nobody here objects if someone used a damp rock rain dancer and then pulls a Kingdra then next turn, why should it be any different for other weathers?
Besides, nobody here objects if someone used a damp rock rain dancer and then pulls a Kingdra then next turn, why should it be any different for other weathers?
Your statement is inaccurate for the simple reason the WEATHER ISNT FUCKING BROKEN! Seriously people, if you dont like weather, play another fucking tier. Weather is part of the metagame, LEARN TO FUCKING DEAL WITH IT AND PLAY WITH/AGAINST IT.
edit: that probably sounded harsh so Im just going to say that many people (ginganinja, bloo) have been highly successful with teams lacking weather starters. Why do people use weather? Because its an easy advantage. Is it unbeatable or strong to the point that it cant be stopped most of the time? Fuck no! Does it require you to use pokemon/strategies that you wouldn't have to use otherwise? Probably, but that's the nature of the additional generation. When RSE was introduced, gues what, people had to learn to prepare for heavy hitters like Salamence and TSS teams. When DPP was introduced they had to adjust to things like Infernape and Stealth Rock. Guess what. Now its weathers turn. So stop bitching and whining about how shitty this metagame is (because thats a completely personal opinion, personally I like weathers presence and I use all kinds of teams) and fucking learn to play against/with it.
EDIT @ below: You act like just having weather up allows you to rip through teams from the get go. Well it doesnt. None of the weather inducers are capable of severely hurting a team unless you fucking suck at teambuilding and every weather abuser has its own checks and counters, many of which overlap. And you know what, an easy way to stop them from hurting you (more geared at rain here) is simply setting up on them before they can threaten you! Or find a pokemon that can break though a large portion of their team! Hell, SubCharge Magnezone is about guaranteed 2 sometimes 3 kills out of a Ferrothorn and its main purpose is completely unrelated to that (clearing the way for dragons). What I'm trying to say is that weather require turns of field set up and planning just as much as everything else excpet for hyper offense weather which still needs to find the right poke to go to town on.
edit: that probably sounded harsh so Im just going to say that many people (ginganinja, bloo) have been highly successful with teams lacking weather starters. Why do people use weather? Because its an easy advantage. Is it unbeatable or strong to the point that it cant be stopped most of the time? Fuck no! Does it require you to use pokemon/strategies that you wouldn't have to use otherwise? Probably, but that's the nature of the additional generation. When RSE was introduced, gues what, people had to learn to prepare for heavy hitters like Salamence and TSS teams. When DPP was introduced they had to adjust to things like Infernape and Stealth Rock. Guess what. Now its weathers turn. So stop bitching and whining about how shitty this metagame is (because thats a completely personal opinion, personally I like weathers presence and I use all kinds of teams) and fucking learn to play against/with it.
EDIT @ below: You act like just having weather up allows you to rip through teams from the get go. Well it doesnt. None of the weather inducers are capable of severely hurting a team unless you fucking suck at teambuilding and every weather abuser has its own checks and counters, many of which overlap. And you know what, an easy way to stop them from hurting you (more geared at rain here) is simply setting up on them before they can threaten you! Or find a pokemon that can break though a large portion of their team! Hell, SubCharge Magnezone is about guaranteed 2 sometimes 3 kills out of a Ferrothorn and its main purpose is completely unrelated to that (clearing the way for dragons). What I'm trying to say is that weather require turns of field set up and planning just as much as everything else excpet for hyper offense weather which still needs to find the right poke to go to town on.
You can keep your weather all you want, you just have to use rain dance, sand storm, sunny day or hail and when the 8 turns are up, use them again.
Every bloody team type needs set-up, hyper offensive teams need to find the right pokemon and use a boosting move, stall teams need turns to stack up hazards and defense boost (and a spin blocker), bp teams use several turns to reach the required level to sweep, TR teams need to set up Trick room every 4 turns, etc.
WHY SO SPECIAL WEATHER?! </joker>
Edit: All I'm seeing is "Oh it's not so bad, I play weather, deal with it, play like a pro" instead of "No it's not unfair, and here's why".
Every bloody team type needs set-up, hyper offensive teams need to find the right pokemon and use a boosting move, stall teams need turns to stack up hazards and defense boost (and a spin blocker), bp teams use several turns to reach the required level to sweep, TR teams need to set up Trick room every 4 turns, etc.
WHY SO SPECIAL WEATHER?! </joker>
Edit: All I'm seeing is "Oh it's not so bad, I play weather, deal with it, play like a pro" instead of "No it's not unfair, and here's why".
Imo, weather shouldn't really be banned. The arguments for banning weather that i've seen so far are:
"It needs to be banned because it's broken" - Broken is, as far as I know, something that is too powerful for the metagame. It's not broken. Drought has problems with Sand/Rain teams; Sand has to deal with water attacks commonly seen on Rain teams; and Rain has to deal with its lack of abusers, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, and etc, so they don't really ensure an auto-win, even against weatherless teams.
"Ah, but it's due to weather that we banned Manaphy, Blaziken and Garchomp" - I highly they were banned due to weather. Manaphy has a +3 instant boosting move, only 2 weakness, 100/100/100 defenses and can't be revenged properly; Blaziken has 2 STAB moves with 120+ power AND Speed Boost; and Garchomp has Swampert's bulk with Scizor's attack and Landorus' speed, along with Substitute and Swords Dance and almost unresisted STABs. And would you really ban 4 kinds of entires playstyles to bring back 3 pokemon that are already broken?
"But weather overcentralizates the metagame" - EVERY metagame is overcentralized, deal with it. Late DPPt had Heatran on almost 40% of the teams; LC gravitates around Fighting moves; Ubers has Arceus on almost every team; DPP UU had cores with Arcanine / Venusaur / Milotic everywhere. If we banned weather, the metagame would eventually become centralized again, and I especulated it to be around Dragons and Steels, such as late DP and PO's "Clear Skies" tier.
"It needs to be banned because it's broken" - Broken is, as far as I know, something that is too powerful for the metagame. It's not broken. Drought has problems with Sand/Rain teams; Sand has to deal with water attacks commonly seen on Rain teams; and Rain has to deal with its lack of abusers, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, and etc, so they don't really ensure an auto-win, even against weatherless teams.
"Ah, but it's due to weather that we banned Manaphy, Blaziken and Garchomp" - I highly they were banned due to weather. Manaphy has a +3 instant boosting move, only 2 weakness, 100/100/100 defenses and can't be revenged properly; Blaziken has 2 STAB moves with 120+ power AND Speed Boost; and Garchomp has Swampert's bulk with Scizor's attack and Landorus' speed, along with Substitute and Swords Dance and almost unresisted STABs. And would you really ban 4 kinds of entires playstyles to bring back 3 pokemon that are already broken?
"But weather overcentralizates the metagame" - EVERY metagame is overcentralized, deal with it. Late DPPt had Heatran on almost 40% of the teams; LC gravitates around Fighting moves; Ubers has Arceus on almost every team; DPP UU had cores with Arcanine / Venusaur / Milotic everywhere. If we banned weather, the metagame would eventually become centralized again, and I especulated it to be around Dragons and Steels, such as late DP and PO's "Clear Skies" tier.
What I don't get is people say that weather has made it a shitty metagame, but compared to what? You sure as fuck can't compare this gen to 4th. And no way in hell can you compare it to 3rd. Weather is all this meta has known. It taught it how to live, how to breathe. The 5th generation of pokemon IS rain. It is sun. It is sand. It is the odd hail. Banning weather would be like banning Leftovers in GSC. Just because it is always a good reason to run it doesn't mean it's broken
weighing in on this because my name was brought up Firstly lets get this shit out of the way
Anyway, despite my status as being a "highly successful" clear skies player questionable, I do concede that I use clear skies a lot so I'll throw in my 2 cents.
Firstly, Clear Skies works, its true, but it does force you into often adopting a very defensive style of play. Look at most of the clear skies teams out there, and most of them are pretty defensive. Excadrill and Thundurus force you to adopt defensive walls and also prevent Clear Skies from really playing a full offensive role, without resorting to running a fuck ton or priority, or something anti metagame such as TR. My point is that while weather teams have to bear in mind there threats too, they generallly have a bit more freedom and are a bit more offensive than most clear skies teams out there.
Despite all this however, I agree with Blue Star in that I reckon auto weather is not broken. In all honesty, I follow the whole, its the abusers not the weather line of thinking. Lets face it, if Excadrill got banned, Sand becomes a fuckload easier to deal with. Granted you still have Landorus with a question mark over its name but its not Excadrill. So yeah I reckon most of the problems with weather come down to a few abusers like say Excadrill under Sand, (possibly Volcarona under Sun) and removing these is much healthier for the metagame than just banning the weather starters such as Tyranitar and Poltoed.
Your too kind but my clear skies teams I would not define as "highly successful". Bloo you can argue but I really doubt my skills as a battler for that statement to be justified with me and my teams being mentioned in the same sentence as Bloo.
Anyway, despite my status as being a "highly successful" clear skies player questionable, I do concede that I use clear skies a lot so I'll throw in my 2 cents.
Firstly, Clear Skies works, its true, but it does force you into often adopting a very defensive style of play. Look at most of the clear skies teams out there, and most of them are pretty defensive. Excadrill and Thundurus force you to adopt defensive walls and also prevent Clear Skies from really playing a full offensive role, without resorting to running a fuck ton or priority, or something anti metagame such as TR. My point is that while weather teams have to bear in mind there threats too, they generallly have a bit more freedom and are a bit more offensive than most clear skies teams out there.
Despite all this however, I agree with Blue Star in that I reckon auto weather is not broken. In all honesty, I follow the whole, its the abusers not the weather line of thinking. Lets face it, if Excadrill got banned, Sand becomes a fuckload easier to deal with. Granted you still have Landorus with a question mark over its name but its not Excadrill. So yeah I reckon most of the problems with weather come down to a few abusers like say Excadrill under Sand, (possibly Volcarona under Sun) and removing these is much healthier for the metagame than just banning the weather starters such as Tyranitar and Poltoed.
The only ban I'd want this round is Sand Stream + Sand Rush, primarily because Excadrill is just as good at abusing it as any of the Swift Swimmers that were deemed broken with Drizzle. It hits harder than physical Kingdra in the Rain, is faster and has better coverage considering that Kingdra has to penalise itself to use a secondary STAB other than Dragon Pulse, either through locking or SpA drops. Not to mention it's a free switch to all Ferrothorn, whereas Gliscor can be worn down with repeated attacks.
And if Kingdra was the main reason for Swift Swim + Drizzle to be banned, it follows that Excadrill is sufficient reasoning for Sand Rush + Sand Stream to be banned. This still lets people use Excadrill in different ways (such as a bulky SD set with Sand Force or Mold Breaker, or a bulky Rapid Spinner.), has little effect on the rest of the pokemon in the metagame (apart from usage) and prevents people from trying to use annoying copycats (for example, people using Sandslash as a weaker Excadrill when it is released)
And if Kingdra was the main reason for Swift Swim + Drizzle to be banned, it follows that Excadrill is sufficient reasoning for Sand Rush + Sand Stream to be banned. This still lets people use Excadrill in different ways (such as a bulky SD set with Sand Force or Mold Breaker, or a bulky Rapid Spinner.), has little effect on the rest of the pokemon in the metagame (apart from usage) and prevents people from trying to use annoying copycats (for example, people using Sandslash as a weaker Excadrill when it is released)
How can you not compare it to Gen IV? This is the first gen to not have radical changes that completely change it from the previous gen (rby > gsc, leftovers; gsc > adv, choice band, evs, natures, sandstream; adv > dpp, choice specs, life orb, stealth rock). Therefore, it's pretty easy to see how the metagame would shape itself with no weather. I think it's pretty easy to say, I loved gen 4 ou, but weather has made gen 5 shitty.
Hell, not to mention you don't even have to compare it to anything to say that weather has made the metagame shitty. Weather metagames play out in a different way than any other metagame, where winning the weather war is the entire battle. If people hate playing the weather war, there's no problem with them saying that weather makes the metagame shitty.
I don't see how you can say that weather IS the gen 5 metagame when there's the option to make that not be true if the majority of people don't want it that way.
Yes it comes down to winning the weather war but you don't have to win to still have a shot. Are you at a disadvantage? Yes. Do you have anyone to blame but yourself for losing your weather starter? No. It's another element to the game and simply "winning the weather war" doesn't mean it's an instant loss. I can name countless times where I thought I lost because my Ninetales died, but I managed to come through by thinking the game out.
Why should I be forced to play a weather team at the first place and lose an advantage? Auto-weather is unfair, let's get this out of the way, because nobody is urging otherwise. It's the matter of whether it tolerable or not. Clearly it isn't anymore, and that is why we are all fussing about what's the best way to fix this unfair advantage.
We have these options:
1) Ban Certain pokemon
2) Ban Ability combos
3) Ban Auto-weather
So let's just focus on which option is the better. And again, I repeat, banning auto-weather =/= banning weather. There are sand storm, rain dance, sunny day and hail. Every single team type needs set-up turns, why is it so hard when it comes to weather?
We have these options:
1) Ban Certain pokemon
2) Ban Ability combos
3) Ban Auto-weather
So let's just focus on which option is the better. And again, I repeat, banning auto-weather =/= banning weather. There are sand storm, rain dance, sunny day and hail. Every single team type needs set-up turns, why is it so hard when it comes to weather?
Why are you playing a team that has an auto-disadvantage to weather is probably the most logical question? There doesn't seem to be a good reason for that! Though many players have had success with non-weather teams on the ladder. While not my best team ever I managed to do very well with one last round. It's team building, team building, team building. It's hard with like 0510985 pokemon, but it is possible!
EDIT:
Or you can be like me and choose to ban none
EDIT 2:
because I've been posting a lot but Anthonias has it all wrong. When I say, "weather is the metagame," it's like saying Leftovers is the item in GSC. It's just there, it will always be there kind of thing.
Auto-weather is a powerful force yes. But its like saying, Blissey is hard to take down. There not "broken". I think the word broken has been overused here. Broken is like using Rayquazza/Arceus in Ou or UU. THATS broken. The superior stats alone brought them in Ubers. Auto-Weather can be dealt with, as it just requires stradegy. Isn't that what the metagame is, using good stradegies to take out powerful team (like weather).
Excadrill is not broken, but Sand Rush may be. So I suggest what like 20 other people have, ban Sand Rush. Although, with only like 4 pokes with it (including evolutions) itmight not be as fair. Chlorophyl isn't banned to sun, the reason why Swift Swim is is because there are TO MANY swift swimmers.
Also, Politoed/Tyranitar/Ninetails/Abomasnow should not be banned just b/c of there ability.
Edot: Didn't think of it that way, but its basically what I'm trying to say. Although, Weather is over used (which is why its in OU). Like blissey is over used (in OU). My point: weather is not broken, try to grasp what "broken" means before saying it. (and i'm talking to the people who say weather is broken)
Excadrill is not broken, but Sand Rush may be. So I suggest what like 20 other people have, ban Sand Rush. Although, with only like 4 pokes with it (including evolutions) itmight not be as fair. Chlorophyl isn't banned to sun, the reason why Swift Swim is is because there are TO MANY swift swimmers.
Also, Politoed/Tyranitar/Ninetails/Abomasnow should not be banned just b/c of there ability.
Edot: Didn't think of it that way, but its basically what I'm trying to say. Although, Weather is over used (which is why its in OU). Like blissey is over used (in OU). My point: weather is not broken, try to grasp what "broken" means before saying it. (and i'm talking to the people who say weather is broken)
Let's not lie to each others here, at the start of a match every non-weather team is at a disadvantage to a weather team and it becomes a matter of catching up. I've reached a peak of #9 on the ladder with a weatherless team, but I was always at a disadvantage at the start of the match.
Also, why are you auto-weather advocates so afraid of a legitimate ban? Are you that unskillful with setting up weather or just plain lazy to learn how to properly set-up?
As for my reasons to call auto-weather broken:
A) It's free, it requires no set-up turn and unless someone changes it it's infinite, requiring no maintenance/setting up again
B) Cloud nine is gimped beyond belief and is given to utterly useless pokemon too
C) It's countered by other weather set-ups without having to bring an automatic weather inducer to ruin your efforts (example having to set-up rain dance only to have a 1 HP Tyranitar saved by RNG wreck you).
D) Auto-Weather + Entry Hazards = 2 dead pokemon before you actually start playing. Many teams get caught up in the confusion on who to get rid of first, the weather or the rocks/spikes/t-spikes being set-up.
There are more Clorphyl pokemon than there are Swift Swimmers.
Also, why are you auto-weather advocates so afraid of a legitimate ban? Are you that unskillful with setting up weather or just plain lazy to learn how to properly set-up?
As for my reasons to call auto-weather broken:
A) It's free, it requires no set-up turn and unless someone changes it it's infinite, requiring no maintenance/setting up again
B) Cloud nine is gimped beyond belief and is given to utterly useless pokemon too
C) It's countered by other weather set-ups without having to bring an automatic weather inducer to ruin your efforts (example having to set-up rain dance only to have a 1 HP Tyranitar saved by RNG wreck you).
D) Auto-Weather + Entry Hazards = 2 dead pokemon before you actually start playing. Many teams get caught up in the confusion on who to get rid of first, the weather or the rocks/spikes/t-spikes being set-up.
There are more Clorphyl pokemon than there are Swift Swimmers.
I agree with the sentiments of this post but you missed two of the most radical changes (physical/special split and ability introduction) which would have made your argument a little stronger!
also, people really shouldn't be saying 'auto-weather' is the culprit because we've had auto-weather for two generations now and never had any problem. Isn't the policy now to ban the Pokemon that makes the weather broken as opposed to banning the weather itself as exhibited by banning Garchomp rather than Sandstorm and the Drizzle + SwSw complex ban?
I suppose a weather ban could be applicable if the inherent traits of the weather condition are broken but are you really trying to tell me a 1.5x SpD boost to Rock types and a little bit of damage each turn to some Pokemon on both sides is broken?
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
Banning weather is being to childish IMO.It's your decision what kind of battle you want to play.a)If you hate weather you could build an Anti weather team and many good players have shown this is possibe b)If you like weather you could build a team that relies on winning the weather war and sweeping with your weather abusing pokes or c)If you wanna use weather that doesn't completely rely on winning the weather you could build a team that's capable of sweeping without weather.Like most will point out the third is hard to accomplish but it's possible.I once built a rain team that abused sharpedo and he could sweep ss and sun teams with SR and Spikes support which the other members of my team set up.One can similarly run something like DDnite on a sun team or anything you like.
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