BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

^No offense taken. I understand your points and they are valid. First off I agree with you completely on Vaporeon and Lanturn having better role synergy than type synergy. I was trying to say that with my above post but I didn't word that as correctly as I should've. You are also correct in saying that Lanturn is best used as an offensive pivot, not as a wall.

Now as for the set I posted, it was a set that was really tailored to fit a specific team I had made a while back. The team I had was extremely weak to bulky waters so I added on Toxic, and it also was susceptible to status so I used Heal Bell. In hindsight these might have not been the best choices, but they helped fill a role my team needed.

I will admit that the EVs are probably not optimal, I know at one point I ran 40 SpA and I would appreciate it if you would suggest what you would run.

Regardless I think we both agree that Lanturn is a great Pokemon and if used correctly can be very anti-metagame. Hopefully I have explained my reasoning with this post, and if not feel free to ask me to explain further.
Actually, this is exactly what I was asking for when I asked you to elaborate, haha. I'm curious to know the old team you were using that Lanturn set on, but if it worked for you, I'd be surprised, but more power to you!
For the EVs, I would probably run 96 HP/160 SpAtk/ 252 SpDef. This spread means that you're guaranteed to 2HKO Thundurus-T with a rain-boosted Scald. Again, I'd probably run a more offensive set (but I'm biased toward offensive Lanturn), but I think that for your set, 160 SpAtk EVs are optimal.
And yes, we totally agree about Lanturn being awesome. Granted, it's really niche, so it's not gonna go OU or anything, but playing it to its strengths will definitely produce good results.
 

PK Gaming

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What are the best moves on a sub+ calm mind jirachi?

I believe thunder is given, but what about the second move?

I've heard psychic, flash cannon, and even water pulse under rain.
Since SubCM Jirachi plays at its best under rain you'll want to use water pulse (don't be fooled, the extra boost in base power doesn't change the fact that it's weak as dirt in terms of BP) but its useful for coverage and the confusion chance. Flash Cannon / Psy(shock) doesn't really do you many favors (I guess they're fairly good against Terrakion/Ttar/Breloom, but that's about all I can think of atm)
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I've used a SubCM Jirachi and it played best using Psyshock and Thunderbolt as moves. You want to eliminate Lati@s, Ferrothorn, Magnezone and Celebi first since you get walled by these things while you are using these moves, but if you have 6 CM boosts, not even them can wall you. This is only in a sand team, I never tried to use Water Pulse + Thunder in a rain team.
 

ginganinja

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I personally run Water Pulse a lot more now, just cos the para fusion combo is really neat. However, I am still a big fan of Flash Cannon, since it just nails Tar switching in to change the weather, and it does a good amount of damage to Lati@s and other Dragons, which might try and risk a set up or something. I personally would never, ever run Psychic, and much rather prefer Psyshock, to better come out ahead in CM wars (although by virtue of its typing, Jirachi wins most of them anyway) and just do more damage to shit like CM Virizion, and SDef Amoongus. The main problem with psyshock (which is why I usually avoid it) is that it leaves you unable to really touch Tyranitar, and I feel thats something I would like my Jirachi to handle. I have seen it been used successfully, so I know that it can be very good, but I personally consider it an anti meta kinda most on Rachi (ie something that sees little use but can be fairly damaging to teams that don't expect it / don't prepare for it).
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I was promoting lanturn as a good thundurus counter back before thundurus was banned. </hipster>

Right now, lanturn works because thundurus is back again. As soon as thundurus left to ubers and people stopped using tornadus, he became much harder to use. He was still a good cleric but he had nothing to pivot into anymore making him into wasted space. Maybe he'll linger around this time.
 
I'm so glad that someone mentioned Lanturn, as I imagine I'm one of very few people to be using it in the new meta. Lanturn is actually a very effective check to Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T, as you surmised. With SpDef investment, it avoids being 3HKOed by LO Hurricane, and 2HKOed by LO Focus Blast. It is also capable of OHKOing both Therians (in the Rain). However, I've found that Lanturn is not a great check to Rain as a whole. While I initially thought it would be a great Keldeo check, the only Keldeo set it checks is Specs. The reason for this is that Keldeo is able to OHKO Lanturn after SR with Secret Sword (I forget whether or not it needs an LO). However, Lanturn can switch in on Specs Hydro Pump with defensive investment, and proceed to Thunder the pony's butt off.

Lanturn seems to be set-up fodder for Breloom and a free switch-in for things like Latios, but I've found that people switch into Lanturn too rashly. Perhaps it's because of Lanturn's RU status, but everyone seems to forget it has access to Ice Beam. Lanturn is able to OHKO 4/0 Breloom after SR with an unboosted Ice Beam, and the switch is so obvious in most battles. Even if you miss the switch-in, most people foolishly try to set up on Lanturn, and so lose their Breloom on that turn. Latios is 2HKOed, even without SR. In short, always run Lanturn with Ice Beam.

I would actually recommend against using Lanturn on a defensive team. Unlike ScarfWynaut, I do not run a defensive team so I'm no expert, but such teams are often hard-pressed for team slots, to be able to handle every role that needs to be filled. With six Pokemon, you have to be able to achieve many roles on a defensive team, and each Pokemon must contribute. But Lanturn doesn't really DO any certain thing on a defensive team. You're forced to wonder why you're using it over Vaporeon who can Wishpass, or Jellicent who can Spinblock, or even sometimes Starmie who can Spin. On defensive teams, it's not enough to check a few dangerous threats, because you have to help fulfill one of the necessary roles on that team, which Lanturn simply cannot do. Yes, Lanturn gets Heal Bell, but Celebi and Chansey/Blissey actually make better clerics on a defensive team, because they have recovery (and SR if that's needed).

I've found that Lanturn actually does best on Bulky Offense or offensively-leaning Balanced teams. It isn't fast enough and can't boost its SpAtk (outside of the unreliable Charge Beam) to fit on an HO team, but the slower offense routes fit it perfectly. Keep in mind, Lanturn does not wall very much of anything. It is an offensive check to threats, and should be treated as such. Lanturn works best when you can pivot it around and wait and get the kills you need it to, which is pretty much exactly what Bulky Offense and Balanced teams do. This is where its mix of skills allow it to use Heal Bell in a way that no other cleric can. I prefer to use it with Agility though, because once Ferrothorn is down, it cleans up Rain teams pretty dang easily. But even a SubCharge Beam set is viable, since it can out-speeds almost all walls and it only takes 52 EVs to make 101 HP Subs. Additionally, it can OHKO most of its offensive checks at +1. Tbh, I think Agility is more suited to the metagame than SubCharge Beam though. The point is, Lanturn can actually run several sets, more than you would think at first.

Oh, and don't worry about Lanturn's stats. It actually has a trolly speed, just beating CB Scizor without any investment. Specially, its HP is massive enough to give it good bulk, although invetment in SpDef is necessary for it to switch into the two Rain Therians. And while its SpAtk seems low, keep in mind it'll be spamming 120 bp STAB attacks most of the time, and that they'll be super-effective against the things its checking. Lanturn is just fine specially, despite how its stats look. Just don't try and take more than one physical hit per game.


I would disagree about Lanturn and Vaporeon. First of all, 11/17 types are able to hit them both at least neutrally, so I don't see what you mean by "they only don't resist Grass". So their type-synergy is quite poor, although their role-synergy is much better. Secondly, I've already given my feelings about how Lanturn does on defensive teams, but suffice to say I don't think that uses Lanturn to its full potential.

But perhaps the biggest problem I have here is your set. Can you please explain to me in better detail what you were thinking? Of course Lanturn becomes set-up fodder with that set. First of all, it lacks Ice Beam, which I've already elaborated on, but let's forget that for a second. Lanturn isn't a wall, it just doesn't have the stats or movepool for it. What job is it performing on your team that couldn't be done better by another Pokemon? Hell, even your own Vaporeon could probably serve better as a cleric than Lanturn. Lanturn can't just take repeated hits, like a defensive Pokemon needs to be able to, it can only take enough hits to check the threats it checks. Which your Lanturn doesn't do. It doesn't beat Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. In fact, it debatably even loses to Starmie. Volt Switch, with your EV spread, doesn't even 2HKO Tornadus-T most of the time. That's right, not even a 2HKO. It can just keep switching around to stay healthy via Regenerator the whole match. Not to mention that Volt Switch makes you send in another Pokemon, so I hope you have another Hurricane resist. Thundurus-T can Nasty Plot on your weak Scald and then 2HKO you with Focus Blast. Or it can Nasty Plot twice, and then OHKO you with Focus Blast. Yes, it can take two Scalds (even in Rain). So I guess I'm wondering how exactly your Lanturn beats them. Oh, and why give it Toxic? Lanturn doesn't have any way of Toxic-stalling (Protect/recovery), and it lacks an effective way of spreading Toxic around (phazing).

I don't mean to sound rude, but I really think you're misusing Lanturn. Your set doesn't beat the things Lanturn is supposed to beat, and it doesn't have the tools to do the job you want it to do. I feel like your team slot would be better occupied by another Pokemon. Don't get me wrong, Lanturn is an awesome Pokemon, but not in that way. It's not a defensive wall, it's an offensive pivot.
Which Lanturn set are we talking about, here? And can it survive Superpower from either rain-based Therian forme?
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Without doing any calcs, I'm just gonna say it can. And I think the set would be something like Scald (though I would just use hydro pump in rain to be honest. Scald is weak as shit and I'm not trying to burn special attackers), ice beam, heal bell, and thunder/discharge. A specially bulky spread with slight offensive investment to go along with this too.
 
Tornadus @ Leftovers
(Timid, 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe)

Substitute
Nasty Plot
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power Ice


Mach/Bullet Punch resist really helps this set. And there are very few tyranitars/blisseys running around and loads of ice-weak pokemon at large, so HP Ice > Focus Blast.

Works really well :)
 

shrang

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I prefer Psyshock so you don't have to wait until +6 before you can start hurting Blissey. Even with 101 HP Subs, you're still under a time limit on how much you can boost. I personally hate using Water Pulse, it's just so fucking weak. All it is is annoying (in the rain, completely useless out of it), and like I usually say, "annoying" does not consistently win you games, ever. Flash Cannon would be my second option since it has good coverage next to Thunder as well as destroying Tyranitar with it.

One Pokemon I've been finding excellent in this metagame is Jolteon. With Politoed / dual genie / Keldeo teams everywhere, Jolteon can pretty much single-handedly total any of those teams if you remove their defensive checks (Amoonguss / Ferrothorn / Gastrodon). Does Tornadus-T think it's the king of OU in terms of Speed? Jolteon will make sure it never forgets who's the fastest in the universe =D. I've been running SubPass Jolteon and it is absolutely amazing. There are so many things that you can force out and set up a Sub. As your opponent switches to their defensive Pokemon to take you on, just Baton Pass the Sub to some sweeper that easily sets up on them like Dragonite or something. Seriously, Jolteon is the new Round 1 Virizion IMO.

EDIT: Also, personally I reckon Thundurus-T, even with its much more intimidating 145 SpA, is nowhere near as hard to check as Thundurus-I. Latias is now a full counter to the thing provided you run Life Orb and Draco Meteor, because you outspeed and OHKO it. HP Ice does about 65% maximum with a Life Orb, so Agility sets can't beat it either unless you've gotten your Latias worn down. If it doesn't get an Agility off, you can just send in your Keldeo or Starmie or ScarfToed or *insert Scarfer* to revenge kill it without even caring about a potential Prankster Thunder Wave like Thund-I used to do.
 
I prefer Psyshock so you don't have to wait until +6 before you can start hurting Blissey. Even with 101 HP Subs, you're still under a time limit on how much you can boost. I personally hate using Water Pulse, it's just so fucking weak. All it is is annoying (in the rain, completely useless out of it), and like I usually say, "annoying" does not consistently win you games, ever. Flash Cannon would be my second option since it has good coverage next to Thunder as well as destroying Tyranitar with it.

One Pokemon I've been finding excellent in this metagame is Jolteon. With Politoed / dual genie / Keldeo teams everywhere, Jolteon can pretty much single-handedly total any of those teams if you remove their defensive checks (Amoonguss / Ferrothorn / Gastrodon). Does Tornadus-T think it's the king of OU in terms of Speed? Jolteon will make sure it never forgets who's the fastest in the universe =D. I've been running SubPass Jolteon and it is absolutely amazing. There are so many things that you can force out and set up a Sub. As your opponent switches to their defensive Pokemon to take you on, just Baton Pass the Sub to some sweeper that easily sets up on them like Dragonite or something. Seriously, Jolteon is the new Round 1 Virizion IMO.

EDIT: Also, personally I reckon Thundurus-T, even with its much more intimidating 145 SpA, is nowhere near as hard to check as Thundurus-I. Latias is now a full counter to the thing provided you run Life Orb and Draco Meteor, because you outspeed and OHKO it. HP Ice does about 65% maximum with a Life Orb, so Agility sets can't beat it either unless you've gotten your Latias worn down. If it doesn't get an Agility off, you can just send in your Keldeo or Starmie or ScarfToed or *insert Scarfer* to revenge kill it without even caring about a potential Prankster Thunder Wave like Thund-I used to do.
Can Starmie or Keldeo OHKO Thundurus with Hydro Pump in Rain or out of Rain? Can Scarftoed OHKO it with Hydro Pump?
 
Also, what's the standard Latias set for killing off the Therian formes? I'd assume Draco Meteor, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, and Surf with a Life Orb and maxed special attack and speed?
 
Yes! Meloetta!!!!
Man did I love using that thing beginning of this gen. I love how its typing allows for an immunity to ghosts which psychics just would die for. So great as a bulky cm user, or a mixed attacker w/ the step form.
 
I have a lot of thoughts on Meloetta especially considering it could be nearly as effective as CM rest talk Suicune, or at least be a nice psychic type that can finally own Scizor. Although it can't recover you can't deny it's bulkiness with it's base 128 Spdef and Sp Atk. That sounds really nice in a meta crawling with special attackers. Trick Room, Specs, CM Chesto Rest. They all sound good and maybe even effective in OU. Who knows Meloetta may be the Pokemon people just aren't expecting.

Switching to Blissey or other Sp Def Walls could be a good move or a bad move when it could carry Trick, Wonder Room, or randomly be a relic song Meloetta! Trick Room should be very very effective in the current fast pase meta-game. Even vs Stall all that power is still going to be effective.

With so many possibilities I wonder just how effective this singing siren could be.
 
I think with thunderous t's running around rampant, everyone is going to forget about our favorite maytag washing machine. Any thoughts on rotom-w's usage for this new month?
 

Pocket

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Rotom-W still has a lot going for it - unlike Thundurus-T, it is not weak to Stealth Rock and resists Ice Shard from Mamoswine. If it wasn't for Rotom-W's access to Trick, Thundurus-T is a far superior Choice Scarfer, though, since it can actually check +1 Salamence (Scarf Landorus is still the best, though).

Holy shit, bluemon, SubSalac Terrakion sounds terrific! The lack of Rock Gem / Life Orb would prevent it from packing much punch without Swords Dance, but the late-game sweeping potential of that set is enormous. Unfortunately, Scizor and Breloom can still be a bitch to this set if the Substitute is broken.
 
Which Lanturn set are we talking about, here? And can it survive Superpower from either rain-based Therian forme?
I've been discussing the Tank set; Thunder/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Heal Bell.
And about Superpower, yes it can. LO Naive Tornadus does 52.4% max to uninvested Lanturn.

Without doing any calcs, I'm just gonna say it can. And I think the set would be something like Scald (though I would just use hydro pump in rain to be honest. Scald is weak as shit and I'm not trying to burn special attackers), ice beam, heal bell, and thunder/discharge. A specially bulky spread with slight offensive investment to go along with this too.
Actually, alphatron, Lanturn needs 244 SpAtk EVs (with a neutral nature) to OHKO Tornadus-T with Thunder. The reason OHKOing is important is because with Regenerator, a 2HKO doesn't mean much. I've been running 244 SpAtk, with the rest in SpDef and HP (almost all in SpDef, I don't remember exactly how much HP I run).



But enough about my love affair with Lanturn. FUCK YES MELOETTA. It is my second favorite Pokemon, and I cannot wait to spam this thing all up in OU. I only have like 2 minutes now, but come back later if you want to see me post a wall of text all about Meloetta.
 
Another Pokemon that I have had much success with yet feel has not been discussed enough in this thread is Celebi. It serves as an excellent check to some of the new or otherwise upgraded sweepers such as Keldeo and Breloom and can even lure in threatening 'mons like Tornadus-T and Thunder Wave them on the switch.

If any of you want to give Celebi a try as well, I recommend using the Navi set found on its onsite analysis with the moveset Giga Drain / Hidden Power Ice / U-turn / Thunder Wave. Feel free to tweak it as you like, though this set seems to work the best for an offensive rain team should you opt to use Celebi in one.
 
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I use a CB mamoswine (I'm pretty sure it's standard by now) to kill off the Therians. Starmie also works as a revenge killer against Thundurus-T and Landorus-T, almost guaranteed an OHKO with LO and Ice Beam.
 
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I use a CB mamoswine (I'm pretty sure it's standard by now) to kill off the Therians. Starmie also works as a revenge killer against Thundurus-T and Landorus-T, almost guaranteed an OHKO with LO and Ice Beam.
I don't think it's just with CB, but Therian killing is the primary reason Mamoswine is leaping up in usage and in effectiveness. That and Breloom.

I'm sure unrestricted Thick Fat is also contributing, but it's nothing in comparison to the pig's new prey.
 
I was promoting lanturn as a good thundurus counter back before thundurus was banned. </hipster>

Right now, lanturn works because thundurus is back again. As soon as thundurus left to ubers and people stopped using tornadus, he became much harder to use. He was still a good cleric but he had nothing to pivot into anymore making him into wasted space. Maybe he'll linger around this time.
You are assuming of course that they didn't forgoe focus miss in place of grass knot.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I've been discussing the Tank set; Thunder/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Heal Bell.
And about Superpower, yes it can. LO Naive Tornadus does 52.4% max to uninvested Lanturn.


Actually, alphatron, Lanturn needs 244 SpAtk EVs (with a neutral nature) to OHKO Tornadus-T with Thunder. The reason OHKOing is important is because with Regenerator, a 2HKO doesn't mean much. I've been running 244 SpAtk, with the rest in SpDef and HP (almost all in SpDef, I don't remember exactly how much HP I run).
244? Yikes. But that is much better than my sloppy EV spread. I'll have to switch to this.

You are assuming of course that they didn't forgoe focus miss in place of grass knot.
Lanturn is pretty light so a super effective grass knot is weaker than a nuetral focus blast against him.
 
The best genie counter I've come across is actually Swift Swim Kingdra. It's very common for either Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T to come along with Rain, doubling Kingdra's speed and upping his Water STAB. Both being neutral, it is easy to OHKO either with a boosted Modest Hydro Pump (although 62.5% for Tornadus-T). I prefer the Specs variant for sheer spamability and power, but set up can work too. The only downside is a Dragon-weakness and the inability for you to carry Rain.
 

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