1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,551
    What's New in BW2?

    Well, a whole lot of things. There are a ton of new tutor moves, released Dream World Pokemon, Keldeo, and new formes for the genies trio.

    Rain

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At the moment it's pretty widely agreed that rain teams benefitted the most from BW2. Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T are already having a major effect on the metagame. The former is seeing use as a Choice Scarfer due to its monstrous Special Attack alongside its base 101 Speed, which allows it to sit in the same useful Speed tier as Landorus. Devastating Nasty Plot, Agility, and Substitute sets are also seeing play.

    Tornadus-T is a major upgrade to Tornadus. At the cost of a small amount of power, it has gained access to Regenerator and increased Speed and bulk. The Speed boost is most notable for allowing Tornadus-T to outpace Starmie and Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Life Orb is the most prominent set, allowing Tornadus to abuse Hurricane with a large degree of freedom, with Focus Blast and U-turn being used frequently alongside it. Regenerator helps in compensating for Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil. Choice Specs are also a viable option, though in this case the decrease in power is more noticeable in comparison to regular Tornadus. Regular Tornadus still also has a niche in Prankster Tailwind, though for the majority of teams Tornadus-T is by and far the more preferable forme.

    Keldeo's projected impact has doubtlessly been stunted by how common Tornadus-T and Choice Scarf Thundurus-T are, but it's still a powerful force, capable of running Calm Mind, Choice Specs, or Choice Scarf with good effect. Keldeo even gained Icy Wind, a boon for its Choice Specs set that makes dealing with Latios much easier. Keldeo is obviously right at home in the rain, but can also function on sand teams, as Tyranitar can dispatch of pesky Lati@s with little difficulty.

    Haxorus is notable for gaining Aqua Tail and Superpower; Aqua Tail is a good wallbreaking tool in rain, and Superpower gives Haxorus the ability to smash Ferrothorns attempting to tank Outrage.

    Sun

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Ninetales, for the first time, has access to semi-reliable recovery. It is now able to run Restalk with Drought, making it easier for it to stick around throughout a match and provide sunlight for its teammates. Giga Drain is a notable move for both Venusaur and Volcarona; the former moreso than the latter. With Giga Drain, Growth Venusaur in the sun can beat Chansey and Blissey one-on-one, assuming they lack Thunder Wave or a super effective special move, Flamethrower in particular. Thanks to its immunity to Toxic, Venusaur can accrue a healthy number of Growth boosts, then Giga Drain the blobs for a large amount of damage, healing off Venusaur's injuries from Seismic Toss. Giga Drain's recovery is useful as far as sweeping goes as well, allowing Venusaur to take more risks in setting up and making it more difficult to revenge kill with priority.

    Roost is the most notable new move Volcarona has received, giving it more reliable recovery. Bulky sets are likely to see a rise in usage, as they no longer have to contend with the shortcomings of Morning Sun. Morning Sun may still see some use on truly dedicated sun teams, but for the most part Roost does everything Morning Sun needs to do, and more reliably. Giga Drain is useful on Life Orb sets, giving Volcarona a way around Keldeo, Terrakion, Jellicent, and Gastrodon all at once.

    Sand

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Sandslash finally has access to its Dream World ability, Sand Rush. Though essentially an inferior Excadrill, Sandslash is still a threatening Swords Dance sweeper, and, just like Excadrill, should prove very difficult to spinblock against. Stoutland, another Sand Rush sweeper, gained Superpower, finally giving it a way around the likes of Terrakion and Heatran. Sand teams seem likely to switch to a Sand Rush focus once again, with two viable sweepers now available to them.

    General

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Thanks to the Stealth Rock tutor, the most useful entry hazard is likely to see a bit more presence in the metagame, which is not necessarily a bad thing when taking Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T into consideration. Landorus-T is probably the least notable of the Therian formes, and is likely to see most of its use as a bulky Stealth Rock supporter and defensive pivot, since Landorus pulls off most other offensive niches better inspite of Landorus-T's massive base 145 Attack, thanks to Sand Power. Poison Heal Gliscor not only gained Stealth Rock, but it also gained Roost, cementing it as one of the best physical walls in the metagame. Terrakion can use Stealth Rock as well, and should be able to find plenty of opportunities to set it up, given the number of switches it can force. Ferrothorn's only notable improvement is that with the Stealth Rock tutor, it can finally hold the holy trifecta of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Leech Seed, all on the same set, whereas before it could only have two of the three at one time.

    Amoonguss's Dream World ability, Regenerator, allows it to function as a check to rain teams, thanks to its massive Special bulk and access to the ever-deadly Spore. It can make good use of Giga Drain, as well as Clear Smog and Stun Spore to neuter offensive threats.

    Your Opinions

    So, what do all of you think and feel about this? What has been working for you, both in terms of the new threats and in terms of stopping them? Have you noticed any metagame trends? What interests you that you want to try? Don't restrict yourselves to what I've talked about here either. Feel free to discuss new things I might have overlooked! Please keep discussion away from bans, as it's a little bit early for discussion of that.

    Have at it!
  2. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,292
    Just saying, Ninetales also got Pain Split via Move Tutor as well, so I doubt you'll need to resort to the rather crappy RestTalk of this gen.
  3. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,855
    Interesting read to get the BW2 metagame direction news because i don't bother myself playing it right now.

    What about Conkeldurr Ice Punch ? Is it played or does it suffer too much from the Rain/Sun team uprising ?
  4. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Deer Lord
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,413
    Heatran, Slowbro, and Amoonguss are THE FWG core. Slowbro and Amoonguss can just switch out when their health gets a bit low, and Heatran takes on the sun teams that plague the duo. An interesting defensive partner for this, I've found, is Bronzong - it is immune to the Ground attacks that plague the core (since none of them resist it) and is a reliable check to both formes of Tornadus. Partnered with another Ground immunity (maybe a Therian, if you wish) and a final attacker, it makes for a really nice balanced team, or one can try full stall with Blissey and... Vaporeon? I'm not sure what would go there.

    Keldeo is a bit underwhelming, but nonetheless powerful. Probably only underwhelming because it can't really switch into anything at the moment and the main Therians, but... yeah. It's a bit like Terrakion in that regard. It can't switch in to anything for the most part, but if you don't have a way around it you're in a lot of trouble. I still can't decide on whether to use HP Ghost, Electric, or Ice on my CM Keldeo, although Ghost is a guarantee on the Specs one. Perhaps Icy Wind would be a decent filler move there.

    Tornadus-Therian seems to work like a charm for people, if PS chat is anything to go by, and I can understand why. It might be a bit weaker, but LO and Specs still pack a major punch, and Regenerator is just icing on the cake. Thunderus-Therian seems best off by attacking outright or using Agility - Nasty Plot is let down by its low Speed. Sure, it's powerful, but something like Scarf Landorus-Incarnate can just switch in on Thunder and threaten to KO with Stone Edge. Landorus-Therian is surprisingly bad, to be honest. It might be because I'm too busy running Slowbro and a freaking Bronzong to see its true power, but it just hasn't been much of a threat.

    I've seen surprisingly few Conkeldurr and almost no Gliscor - I guess everybody's too happy with Keldeo, Amoonguss and the Therians to remember these guys.

    Overall, the metagame is now so Rain-based it's crazy, although having a check for the three big weathers is still all too important. I haven't tried regular Kyurem out yet with the tutor moves, but it seems great. We'll have to see...
  5. Ricky Horror

    Ricky Horror

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Alright question is Keldeo's Resolution form up for grabs? I think Rain just seems so overpowered with new toys it's hard to opt on which to pick. lol I personally hate the look of Keldeo and wish its stats were at better par, although my Keldeo is ripping things apart and amoonguss the "people's hero" is getting raped by Tornadus-T. Enough said GG
  6. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,778
    Keldeo-Resolution is just a graphical change; it has no impact on the metagame.
  7. Ricky Horror

    Ricky Horror

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    I know it has the same stats, but didn't know if using it would be legit. Some ppl would begin to argue over that kind of thing. Thanks tho. :)
  8. Soarin

    Soarin

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Rain will be the dominant weather yet again, All of it's new toys just scream "Rain Team". It's gonna be interesting to see other pokemon that have gotten new toys fare in this shifted metagame.
  9. Bribery

    Bribery

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    320
    As others have said, Rain Offense will definitely be the dominant team in BW2. Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo put a ton of pressure on the opponent and allow for very little setup opportunities. Amoonguss is being hyped as the answer to Rain, but it's wrecked by Tornadus and it's just setup bait for SubCM Jirachi.

    I've been having a lot of fun with an all Choice-item Rain team. It's very easy to pull off considering how hard the new Rain toys hit without any setup.

    Landorus-T could have potential with a RP set, but otherwise it's very underwhelming compared to the other two genie forms. The regular Landorus form pulls off most of its sets better thanks to Sand Force.
  10. BattleStar

    BattleStar

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    637
    It feels to me that revenge killers are going to be more focused on now seeing how OU is a speed demon. I see that Mamoswine would make a ideal counter to the Genie Trio. Preferably I could see the Choice Band set working well in this position with I hink most lieky being able to KO them with full health.

    Mamoswine@Choice Band
    252 Atk/252 Spe/ 4 HP
    Thick Fat
    Adamant
    -Ice Share
    -Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Icicle Crash

    Does Mamoswine get super power? You think it can utilize stealth rocks?
  11. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,114
  12. Ricky Horror

    Ricky Horror

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    I really see Sand having a hard time and counters for its arsenal need to be made lol As stands Keldeo will make Rain so dominant I can already see it being banned.
  13. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,289
    top 10 current pokemon (in no real order):
    haxorus
    tornadus (in rain)
    keldeo
    conkeldurr
    amoongus
    starmie
    dragonite
    politoed
    gastrodon
    gliscor

    haxorus is a monster now with superpower and with rain teams it can be almost impossible to stop it + tornadus from dominating your team. choice scarf jirachi is the best choice. ferrothorn the 2nd best haxorus counter is now a shaky check because of superpower. aqua tail in rain is also scary.

    like i said, tornadus is ridiculously hard to fight and will dominate you. specs hurricane blasts through the same things regular tornadus does (you'll rarely ever miss the extra special attack, even if you think losing 15 is a lot). outspeed zam, scarftar, dugtrio, starmie, etc is way more important. with regenerator, as long as you have a solid steel-type switch-in, you're always going to get 2 kills.

    keldeo shouldnt need an explanation, lo surf in rain dominates the metagame, secret sword keeps special walls at bay. easy to get cms as well.

    conkeldurr is extremely hard to fight against. ice punch drain punch is much better than payback drain punch and keeps stall teams in serious trouble.

    amoongus is a little overhyped but it deserves a lot of credit. it shuts down keldeo and has regenerator. it also absorbs tspikes and has 100% sleep move. it fits on almost any team and is a great mon to include for teams with weaknesses to keldeo or any team looking for a mon which gives stall an extremely tough time in taking it down

    imo starmies the best spinner atm and with so many teams running rain, it gains more boosting on scald/surf. psyshock helps with keldeo and it can run ice beam for the now buffed dnite and haxorus.

    dragonite is still the same beast he was before, except superpower now lets him beat ferrothorn even on rain teams. cb dnite is very good with the priority 2 ExtremeSpeed and it doesn't fuck around now when all the other team has is ferro + tran. dd lum is still scary and dnite is a pretty solid check to keldeo.

    rain is by far the best weather again with buffed up tornadus + keldeo, as well as the new thundurus. politoed needs to be in the top 10 simply for that. however, scarf hydro pumps in rain allow it to outspeed and do serious damage (not ohko damage) to tornadus-t and jirachi. but its mostly about the rain.

    if you're sick and tired of rain, gastrodon is worth a shot. it is pretty solid vs keldeo, can take 1 hurricane from tornadus-t, walls thundurus-t, walls offensive politoed, and can ice beam the dragons while taking the hit. whenever rain is the best, this thing becomes the best. also good partner for rain teams as well, your storm drain + rain boosted scalds do a shitload of damage and you have ground stab for steel-types.

    finally gliscor. personally i don't see roost as being that great of an addition but it can be used pretty effectively. still, a great stall killer and offensive killer. sub gliscor is always fuckin annoying but you might want to try rock polish flight gem with eq ice fang and acrobatics. it can do serious damage to a ton of pokemon in this metagame.

    scizor thundurus-t ferrothorn rotom-w alakazam etc are all still very very good and could also fit on this list. but as far as the current metagame goes (when you play good people), this is basically what its devolved too.

    no one uses virizion in sun :(. there are better ways to win the weather war, loading on double grass isnt great (venu is so much better), and setting up 2 CMs isnt the best with tornadus lurking (or fire blast from anything in sun).

    yes and yes

    no v_____v. maybe thundurus but lets just move forward unless we are ready to introduce ability bans (ie sand veil chomp ban but rough skin chomp legal)
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,712
    Tobes you should add Low Kick in the new moves that Haxorus gets! Usually it is way better than Superpower since it does the things you want it to (ohkoing-2hkoing Ferro), without lowering your attack and defense stats.
  15. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,337
    First of all the stealthrock move tutour is GREAT perhaps cobalion will see a little more usage as a offensive or even defensive stealth rock user with its grea typing Fighting/steel. It gets outclassed by Lucario offensivly but like i said defensivly it may be pretty good with stealthrock although it does need some reliable recovery.

    Tornadus is one of my favourite pokemon and i think i will be using his therian form alot in the days to come. A set not mentioned was the bulk up set i believe with tornaduses new bulk and speed his evs can be put into spiecal defense and hp and he can run a good bulk up set! Prankster doesnt matter to much as this tornadus is quite fast. However this set does not get to abuse regenrator quite well. I believe a choice specs set is kind of out classed by regular tornadus so i think Life orb tornadus will be the trend as it can U-turn out to get rid of Life orb reciol and still have a dangerous Hurricane.

    So Rain is quite broken in OU and The new thunderous form is OU! so that will also be fun to play with. I feel sorry for landorous though it is supposed to be the strongest of the trio but now it seems sort of outclassed by its brothers

    Edit: Oh and low kick on Haxorous also helps with tyranitar! yep sand is really eating a whole bunch of shit although gliscor got better maybe we will see Garchomp and excadrill move back down to help sand?
  16. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,961
    Excadrill would be healthy for this meta IMO. It can switch-in to non-Focus Blast Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. Gliscor, Amoonguss, Conkeldurr, and Landorus-T counter it, and Keldeo checks it. Also, it spins and gets Stealth Rock, which is cool. Also, sand needs all the help it can get ATM.

    Garchomp would also be fine. With rain dominating, Sand Veil is not as big of an issue, and multiple new threats can beat it, including the Therian genies and Keldeo. Also, Haxorus gives it competition for a teamslot. Oh and Ice Shard Thick Fat Mamoswine.

    Thundurus-I (like the others) seems okay. It looks like Thundurus-T outclasses it, and Tornadus-T can check it. In addition, Regenerator Amoonguss and the more useful now Gastrodon beat it as well. Ice Shard Thick Fat Mamoswine is a thing.

    I'm on an iPod and don't want write a whole ton now, but other than Shaymin-S I could totally see AfroThunderRule's list of retestings being viable.

    EDIT: If this sounds stupid then sorry, or if whatever examples don't make any sense. Also sorry if this isn't the appropriate place.
  17. Ricky Horror

    Ricky Horror

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Is anyone looking at Perish Song Celebi as a good Keldeo counter? SafeGuard doesn't hit behind a Sub as Perish Song it also has resistance and nice bulk overall.
  18. jg1198

    jg1198

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    147
    Kyurem-W everywhere. And one just tanked a specs boosted Focus Blast from my Politoed (granted it survived with like 2%). Ban imminent. On the not obvious side, I am loving the therians. Praying Thundurus-T doesn't get banned, never cared for landorus, so go ahead, and no way tornadus will get banned. Volt Absorb makes Thundurus-T an amazing switch in to electric attacks so I can boost and try to sweep, plus I love having another answer to electric on my rain team. The reduction in speed and bulk is very noticeable, and I don't if he would stick around were normal thundurus to be set free, or if lightning rod zapdos got released. Additionally, Sp Def Jirachi is loving the new metagame. I love the lack of jelli's, my keldeo is seeing some use because of it. Volt-turn is back and better than ever with the Therians.
  19. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    Did Sandstorm really got nothing notable with B2W2?
  20. jg1198

    jg1198

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    147
    Well, everything in the "general section" is completely viable in the sand.
  21. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,370
    Great stuff tobes

    Anyway Rain Offense in king in this metagame. You got to be real careful what you throw out because it could just become the perfect switch in for Keldeo, Tornadus, or Thunderus. Doesn't mean you can't try some stuff out!

    Alright first, Amoonguss is litterally a requirement on every single team. It certainly helps against offensive rain, but unlike stuff like Gastrodon, it can actually pull its own weight against other types of teams as well. Personally I use clear smog over Stun Spore since it has helped me out against certain CM Keldeo's. Spore is really helpful overall since that's one less threat that could potentially OHKO your team gone. Mamoswine is super important now to try revenge everything with Ice Shard.

    Roost Poison Heal Gliscor is pretty amazing. I underrated it by a long shot. It could switch in on to a +1 Salamence and proceed to Roost Stall it while it Outraged. Granted it lived by the skin of its teeth, but very few non-steel types Pokemon can claim to do that.

    Ice Punch Conkeldurr isn't worth it. The other two options (Payback and Stone Edge) are better coverage and dropping Mach Punch is to handy against faster threats. Your best bet to use Ice Punch is an all-out attacking set with Lefties or a Banded set. I have been raving about it on the forums too much, but Sleep Talk Conkeldurr is really good :o It can survive a Thunderus-T's thunderbolt at full health and can smack it back with a powerful move. He can tank plenty of hits and get some health back while asleep.

    Has anyone tried a more tankish Wolfrus yet?
  22. Soarin

    Soarin

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Interesting how one game can change the landscape of the metagame. We started with All-Out weather, Started to sink into Bulky offense, Then we started to see the prevalence of Non-Weather balanced teams. And Now, Back to Rain/Weather Dominance.
  23. steviestar

    steviestar

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Anyone else been trying out Sand Rush Sandslash? He's not half bad actually. He's weaker and slower than Excadrill but he still fulfills the same purpose pretty damn well. Lacking a weakness to mach punch is cool too.
  24. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,289
    kyurem-w is Uber...where are you playin?
  25. jg1198

    jg1198

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    147
    Tornadus-T. I've never been so amazed and disappointed at the same time, because before the base stats came out I expected it to be an OU lugia, a flying wall, and it turned out instead to be an amazing bulky offense mon instead.

    Oh and KD24. I'm in the PO alpha testing, where else can I be? its the only one that shows up when i look for servers. Am I doing something wrong?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)