Evolution and Science Acceptance

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Myzozoa

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thank you christianity for your contributions to science throughout the centuries......

1. lol
2. citation needed or just an explanation would suffice
3. the ivory tower of Positivism in that picture is just too good. I bet in a few hundred years we'll be living in a utopia if we can just deal with these pesky theists.
 

vonFiedler

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Hey Razza where is the height of Muslim civilization on that graph?

Aside from the fact that they were doing great stuff during those dark ages, as was the east, the "Christian" dark ages were a result of the Roman empire splitting up and falling apart, leaving Europe in a state of disarray. It wasn't until the 800s that western Europe was unified again and saw a revival of art and culture. Science started again, and it was in the 1200s (so your graph is wrong) where the major scientific drive was in reviving Roman science and improving upon it.
 
So according to that graph, within the span of 100 years Europe got its act together and discovered the Americas. I call bullshit.
 
Don't forget that the Chinese were doing fine.

In the first century they had started working on steam power and flamethrowers. So who knows.

Of course civilizations are prone to rising and falling, just look at the Egyptian civilization. And to be fair, the Romans did cause the fall of their own civilization, but the strict rules set out by the Church did in fact stifle western civilizations re-growth.

Im all over the place here, the chart has misconceptions, but some truths to.
 

Ray Jay

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The writer's were not infallible; they were just as imperfect and capable of screwing up as the rest of us. THEY PROVE IT THEMSELVES IN THE SCRIPTURE (*cough*Judas*cough*).
Sorry, what part of scripture did Judas write?

Also, I have a question about the use of radiometric dating (not trying to be "that guy", just honestly wondering what you intellects think on this subject), is it true that radiometric dating relies on the notion of a constant half-life, and is it possible that the rate of decay over time isn't constant or predictable at all?
 

vonFiedler

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He means that Judas was a disciple and the disciples wrote much scripture. They were also, in the bible, constantly berated by Jesus for interpreting his shit wrong.
 

Jorgen

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Also, I have a question about the use of radiometric dating (not trying to be "that guy", just honestly wondering what you intellects think on this subject), is it true that radiometric dating relies on the notion of a constant half-life, and is it possible that the rate of decay over time isn't constant or predictable at all?
There are a few radioactive particles that exhibit an irregular decay process and hence have dynamic decay rates, but these are exceptions to the rule and are explicitly excluded as good candidates for radiometric dating because of it. Isotopes such as Carbon 14 are used because their decay properties are empirically shown to closely follow a constant decay rate model. There's also other, typically more relevant considerations, such as whether or not an isotope's half-life is too short or long for reasonably precise dating, that can dictate whether a certain isotope is a good candidate for a particular dating application.
 
Also, I have a question about the use of radiometric dating (not trying to be "that guy", just honestly wondering what you intellects think on this subject), is it true that radiometric dating relies on the notion of a constant half-life, and is it possible that the rate of decay over time isn't constant or predictable at all?
Radiometric dating does rely on half-lives being constant. It is not reasonable that half-lives have changed significantly. Half-lives are not just arbitrary values they are derived from a few physical constants, in order to change the half-lives you would have to change the physical constants. However changing the physical constants would affect the half-lives of different isotopes in different ways so dating by different isotopes would not give a consistent age. But dating by different isotopes does give a consistent age.
 
We were getting off topic in the election thread so I decided to make this thread.

This thread is to discuss the theory of biological evolution and the implications of the controversy surrounding it. Some key questions to be considered here are:

Is the theory of evolution the best explain of biological diversity and the origin of the human species?

Is it reasonable to allow a candidates views on evolution to affect your vote?

Can the theory of evolution be reconciled with religious beliefs?
-It's the best theory we have to explain biodiversity without a doubt

-From a Christian perspective I know evolution is compatible. It is viewed as a mechanism of creation similar to how the big bang theory can be thought of as a mechanism of creation.
 
You guys need to learn to accept Jesus as your savior and move on. Evolution is false.
i'm curious if you bozos will take this seriously
 
"Now, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1

The key to a Christian's belief is faith. Without it, nothing else matters.

I urge all Christians (and everyone else as well) to look deeply deeply at their beliefs of God and try to use logic to reason them out. However, when doing this, you must remember that we are dealing with an omniscient God whose knowledge and reasoning transcends anything we as humans (even the smartest scientists) are even able to understand.

Whose to say that God, when he created the Earth, didn't fill it with fossils dating back billions of years?

The point I'm trying to make is, it's impossible to fathom the power and wisdom and reasoning of "God." Perhaps he puts those fossils there so that me must believe by faith? Sounds kinda lame to me for God to trick us like that, but, as I said, it would be impossible for me, as a human, to understand the reasoning of God.

The one thing that would make me deeply question my faith in God would be the discovery of highly intelligent life on another planet. I would find that extremely hard to reason out. Until that day comes, I'm content with living by faith.
 
No offense, but anyone who claims that the bible shows the periods of time used to make the Earth is either scientifically illiterate, or hasn't read the bible:


Disregarding that you can't have an evening or morning or day and night... if there isn't a planet, yes there was light soon after the universe was created.

I guess the first passage just refers to the making of the sun because here he starts on earth, but I guess we can let billion years slide, why not. The rest of this is ok, although first there was land (and before that lava), then water. The sky as we know it does fall in after the water.



Plants were not the first life (especially not fruit bearing plants). The only point here is pants were the first on "land," wo ho.



Wait, so now this guy creates the sun after the Earth, wait no the rest of the fucking universe after the earth. Let us not forget that he makes the entire fucking universe in one day, yet takes 5 days to make the Earth. I hate to break it to you, but Earth isn't that special. Oh and the moon was made before plants to.



So fucking wrong, simply put: water life -> plants as food -> plants ON LAND -> animals on land -> birds -> Man -> livestock.

Stop saying Gensis is right in any fucking way.

and before I get some nut up my ass saying Ive never read the bible, I have indeed read all of Genesis, the best comedy out there, seriously if you need a good joke book give it a gander
You are also forgeting the fact that christians believe God is ALMIGHTY which means he can do anything and everything he wants in whatever order he wants. Also God does see the Earth as "special" because it is the only planet with life. You didn't have to attack christianity man... just sayn
 

UncleSam

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Pretty certain Razza's graph proves that it was the discovery of America that jump-started the human race.

In response to the OP:
1. Evolution is a well-tested and well-developed theory as to how the current diversity of species on earth arose. It has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of life, the universe, or anything.
2. Of course the beliefs of a person should be taken into account before electing that person to arguably the most important and powerful position on the planet. Think about how often "beliefs" have stood in for campaign promises in the past, then tell me you are comfortable voting for someone who promises to do what you think ought to be done yet has wildly different beliefs.
3. I'm fairly certain the Catholic Church "approved" the theory of evolution a while ago and am too lazy to look it up, this question frankly doesn't matter because as I pointed out above, what someone professes to believe and what they actually do/tolerate are two totally separate things. It certainly seems as though a disturbingly high number of people hold animus toward the scientific method.
 
Hey it's this thread again.

I urge all Christians (and everyone else as well) to look deeply deeply at their beliefs of God and try to use logic to reason them out. However, when doing this, you must remember that we are dealing with an omniscient God whose knowledge and reasoning transcends anything we as humans (even the smartest scientists) are even able to understand.
And we've diverted from the OP topic within 3 pages I guess, but what was I expecting?

You've asked people to reason out their beliefs while working under the idea that they cannot understand their deity. What this effectively does if I engage in this kind of thinking is it provides me a cop-out answer to hard questions by just pointing to the fact that I have incomplete knowledge of the Universe and reasoning and using that as a basis to say that therefore I have a deep philosophical knowledge of the Universe. This is just lazy thinking while attempting to challenge my own notions and as a result I would have never really challenged myself.

This may not be what you meant. You may have meant for Christians to really really challenge themselves honestly, given that you provided some theoretical conundrum for your faith. But I can tell you that I've heard this kind of thing before, this sort of apologetics, and I've spoken with people who have this same kind of attitude, and I can tell you that regardless of whatever your intention was in encouraging that assumption, all it really functionally does is either what I described above or it causes people to lose their trust in their faith. In the former case, it seems like a half-assed attempt at critically analyzing one's own beliefs because they were never really subject to change from the beginning. What would keep you from reasoning the existence of alien intelligence away as just a product of God's higher reasoning? Putting aside the fact that God's hyperomniscience is just assumed from the start, the entire process is unproductive and not really meaningful if you're not going to be honest with yourself. My point is that difficult questions don't result in "I don't know," it ends up being "I don't know so therefore the answer is something I already believe but that's only justifiable with supreme omniscience." This issue doesn't apply strictly to Christians, of course, but to all people who use their inability to come to conclusions as evidence of the validity of their faiths, and you can generalize this to just all people who are intellectually lazy (yes, atheists, pantheists, whatever else included; no one is automatically above the rules of the game, but this is beside my point).

The takeaway point I want to make here is that I don't like your suggestion of operating under the assumption that God's reasons are simply too high of a philosophical level for humans to comprehend because it discourages intellectual honesty in this questions; it's unfairly tilted the "game" in your favor (if you are already a person of faith) so that you can't really "lose;" that is, you would in theory never be in a position to change your mind and so the endeavor of challenging oneself is pointless. Yes, I have experiences where my notions and philosophies are challenged as an atheist, but I cannot explain these things away as "oh, I know already that God doesn't exist/can't be known to exist or not exist anyway" and then ignore my cognitive dissonance (ideally speaking; sometimes you just don't have practical time to think about these things obviously). To remain absolutely intellectually honest, I have to work through to see whether claims are correct or not without bias, and since this can't really happen perfectly I have to do the best I can not to consciously alter perceptions, otherwise the game is broken from the start.
 

Danmire

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God does see the Earth as "special" because it is the only planet with life
oh man, then other planets in other galaxies must be there for shits and giggles right? it certainly isn't a waste then!


anyway, my dad and sister both are christians, but they also believe in evolution. now what i mean by this is that they believe that god created the first organisms(the bacteria, etc. etc.) that evolved into what we have today. they do not believe that the earth is 6k years old. they do not believe that dinosaurs and humans lived together, considering the amount of scientific evidence we have. i believe that you can reconcile evolution with religious beliefs. it's not really something to lose sleep for, though.
 
I don't like your suggestion of operating under the assumption that God's reasons are simply too high of a philosophical level for humans to comprehend
First, sorry if I'm de-railing the thread. That was not my intention. However, the topics of evolution and the existence of God are deeply intertwined.

Now, back to your quote. The problem with not operating under this assumption is that then there is no reason to believe in God at all. If God is real, and we can understand his reasoning, then why do bad things happen to innocent people? Why would God condemn some people to eternal damnation? How could Justin Bieber become so popular?

So, yes, if you want me to agree with you, then I will say, operating under your assumption that's God's reasoning was able to be understood by man, then God is not real.

In a sense, you've unfairly tilted the "game" back into your favor. A lot of people like to think they are smarter than whatever deity may be out there. Ask this question of yourself: "Am I really smart enough to understand the reasoning of a Being that could create the universe?"

Second, the reason this isn't just an assumption (if you believe in God and the Bible), is that God says so in his Word:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
So, it's pretty hard for me to "believe" in the existence of God of the Bible but also "believe" that I can understand His reasoning; the two go hand-in-hand.

I also agree that it is very hard for a Christian or atheist to honestly question the existence of God and change their beliefs. It's a known fact that human reasoning is highly resistant to attacks against their core beliefs, even if presented with facts that directly oppose their ideals (there is a name for this but it is escaping me right now). So, nothing that is said on this message board is going to change anyone's minds.
 
The problem with not operating under this assumption is that then there is no reason to believe in God at all
not seeing the problem here

I also agree that it is very hard for a Christian or atheist to honestly question the existence of God and change their beliefs. It's a known fact that human reasoning is highly resistant to attacks against their core beliefs, even if presented with facts that directly oppose their ideals (there is a name for this but it is escaping me right now). So, nothing that is said on this message board is going to change anyone's minds.
I was a Catholic for the majority of my life and that didn't stop me from changing my beliefs
 

Woodchuck

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If God's reasoning is unable to be understood by man, then that does us about as much good as if God did not exist at all. There is no tangible evidence of him doing anything today in the world, and if there's no way to figure out a reason behind those things then, from our perspective, there might as well not be a reason at all!

You are also forgeting the fact that christians believe God is ALMIGHTY which means he can do anything and everything he wants in whatever order he wants.
Sure, he can travel through time and do whatever, but ultimately what's relevant to us is the what actually happened in our physical world. God may travel on his own timeline, but it's our own timeline that matters to us and is actually relevant from a standpoint of understanding the universe. Stephen Hawking put it well when writing about Big Bang Theory: yes, there may have been something before our universe was created / came into being / whatever, but that's not relevant to us if it has no effect on our universe. Similarly, there's no reason that God shouldn't exist, but if he is not having any affect on us then there's no need to bring him into our picture of the universe in order to obtain any understanding.

It's a known fact that human reasoning is highly resistant to attacks against their core beliefs, even if presented with facts that directly oppose their ideals (there is a name for this but it is escaping me right now).
It's called confirmation bias!



Personally, I don't really have any strong faith in God because I refuse to believe something that I cannot find any proof for. (It would probably be easier to get along with my family if I firmly believed in God, but it's not like I can deceive myself into believing something that I don't believe in...) If proof came to light of the existence of God, then I would readily believe in God. I also understand that arguments from a scientific standpoint about God never really work because religion is, in the end, based on faith, and faith is incompatible with science. Yes, people can argue with evidence that makes the Bible look incorrect, but when any organization places a strong emphasis on "faith", arguments are futile.
 
The thing about putting God (or lack thereof) into your logic is that one's belief or unbelief in the poorly defined something called God is inevitably outside the realm of logic. Logic deals in questions that have a limited number of "correct" answers, often one answer but not always, yet God is so ill-defined that a very large number of statements can be chosen arbitrarily to "explain" him/her/it. Science deals in claims that can be tested, yet the existence of God cannot possibly be tested because that requires logic and such. What do you test for? What would have to be observed in order for us to say that God exists? When asking an ill-posed question like this, you can really come to whatever conclusion you want. That's just how it works.
 
The "evolution" of social ideas like its wrong to murder people and cheat on other peoples spouses does have a logical explanation. Those ideas evolved hand in hand with man, as those beliefs suited our survival. Those beliefs do have underlying foundations in the animal kingdom, even bacterial colonies have a sense of punishment interestingly.

It actually interesting, because there appears to have been some evolutionary social dead ends with hominids. I forget which hominid it was, but in one species both the males and females were of almost equal height and strength, but they died out. This might show that division sexual roles was important to early man, and we can see the origins of sexism, for our species, wo ho. I believe there are also similar cases to this for other things, like there were polygamous hominids (shown by much larger males), but my memory of them is foggy.
 
Well, yes, when you get into specifics, you can come to logical conclusions. The question of God is, in general, too broad...
 
Also God does see the Earth as "special" because it is the only planet with life.
Technically that isn't true. Earth is so far the only known planet to support life, but it can't be the only one. We've recently discovered that Mars once had water, so we can't be too far off from finding other Earth-like planets. That's not to say that Mars was Earth-like at one point, but water is essential for life to exist anywhere.
 
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