UU Suspect Discussion - Mew

[kokoloko]

Hello UU,

Mew has been selected as a suspect for Stage 10. Everyone who plays the tier is welcome to participate in the discussion and express their opinion on whether or not they believe Mew to be ban-worthy. All UU Senate members are expected to be actively involved in the discussion.

While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Mew is / isn't ban-worthy, please do remain civil and have respect for everyone else. I will not hesitate to edit / delete / infract posts that are rude or insulting to other members. I will also not hesitate to delete / infract inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Mew is only #19 in usage! How could it possibly be broken???"). Also, this should go without saying, but it's happened in the past, so... please refrain from posting if you don't actually play UU. Thanks.

The debate is expected to last anywhere from 1-2 weeks, after which I will post the requirements for those who wish to apply to vote as part of the Senate. The actual vote will be carried out about two weeks later and the resulting paragraphs will then be posted in this thread and the verdict will be carried out.

That is all.

 

[Shiny Mew]

Mew is like an Arceus in UU very versatile and can use many effective sets due to it 's movepool which means it doesn't have any counters. I've heard people say that Victini and Darmanitan are counters to the stallbreaker set but it's not like Mew can't use Earthquake or Earthpower. Mew is also a good baton passer if not the best one in UU. Mew is not only unpredictable but hard to stop. Like this one time I thought Mew was going to be a baton passer since I saw it used Swords Dance only for it to kill my Hydreigon with Drain Punch and than sweep my team. Mew also has great defenses so most of the time you can't even 2hko it if you're not using a super effective move. Has reliable recovery in Recover, Softboiled and Roost so it can be a pain in the ass to take it down. I faced an interesting Mew the other day with Nasty Plot, Psychic, Shadow Ball and Vacuum Wave that totally caught me off guard as I was expecting to finish off Mew with Weavile and also killing his last pokemon Flygon with Ice Shard. Mew is just too good for UU imo most of the time you will find yourself revenge killing the offensive sets but if you only have one Scarfer say Heracross and Megahorn misses it's GG. Not even Heracross can revenge kill all sets since it fails to OHKO Mew's Calm Mind set. I've also seen Flame Charge being used on offensive sets that was pretty interesting and again costed me the match. Mew can open up sweeps for other pokemon by beating defensive pokemon who rely on non attacking moves to work, spreading status etc. I've also done damage calculations and Mew almost has the same defenses as Uxie, that's pretty broken because it also has good offensive stats and speed. Mew is like a combination of Azelf and Uxie with a huge movepool. I say it's ban worthy.

 

[TPO3]

Well, Mew is the most versatile pokemon in the game aside from Arceus, I don't think anybody can question that. (Smeargle has more moves, but terrible stats. All it does are either hazards or baton pass.) I remember when Kingdra was voted on for suspect because of its versatility. Ultimately, it was decided on not to ban it because
A) It did not posess the immediate power that other sweepers have
B) Its Dragon STAB moves are all either weak, or had major drawbacks.

Mew is even more versatile than Kingdra is. With base 100 in everything, it literally has better stats than Kingdra accross the board. In addition, Mew has a much more gigantic movepool. Not only access to every TM and HM since the Advanced era, but also ever Move Tutor since the Advanced era, as well as some events. What Mew has that Kingdra doesn't though, is immediate power after just one turn of setup. If Kingdra gets to +1, Flygon still outspeeds it, Waterfall doesn't OHKO any steels, and Outrage fails to KO some stuff like defensive Zapdos or Slowbro. Mew on the other hand, needs only one turn to setup to +2, and can immediately pull off a sweep. Nasty Plot's "counters" consist of a pool of checks at best. Snorlax is weak to Aura Sphere, and also does not enjoy Psyshock. Most of the other pokemon rely on either Scarfs or Sucker Punch. The pokemon that do have the potential to take one of anything Mew can throw at it (read as: Porygon2 and Umbreon) can't really hit back that hard. In addition, you might think Mew is Nasty Plot, but then it sets up a Swords Dance, and actually has a respectable physical movepool to back it up. Zen Headbutt, Drain Punch for Steels and Darks, and Sucker Punch, which turns normal surefire offensive checks, like Chandelure or Yanmega into shaky checks at best.

I realize the metagame is revolving around pokemon like Chandelure and Moxie Heracross, but Mew is still way to versatile to stay in the meta. If Hail passes the suspect test and comes back, it will actually help Mew, as it can seriously threaten opposing hail teams. It has Drain Punch/Aura Sphere to ruin any Ice-types, save Froslass, and poison types (like Crobat or Nidoqueen) are often used to balance the fighting weakness, which just helps Mew.

tl;dr: Mew is even more versatile than Kingdra, sets up almost as, if not just as easily, and is way more powerful. Not to mention that it gets 100/100/100 defenses on top of it, which means even weak super-effective attacks won't take it out. I think it would be best to Ban Mew

 

[hobo bob]

Mew has a very large movepool and commendable stats, but I feel each set is outclassed by other 'Mons. Stallbreaker seems to be one of the most popular sets but Sableye can completely outclass it with Prankster and far better typing. I suppose Mew can sponge special attacks easier, but priority WoW and spinblocking is too good to pass up.

Boosting sets are also outclassed by existing sweepers in the tier. Azelf is faster and has access to Nasty Plot, Raikou pulls off a better CM, and there are plenty of other viable SD users with better offensive typing. Even baton pass sets are outclassed by SmashPass. The only thing Mew has going for it is late game surprise factor, which doesn't scream broken to me. Let's also not forget Mew can be easily be revenged by the most popular scarfer in the tier, Heracross (although plenty of sweepers can be revenged via Hera, he's that good).

Overall, Mew is a good team player, but nearly every time I use Mew I end up switching it out for a different Poke who I feel can do the job better. Surprise factor is nice, but as the saying goes "A jack of all trades is a master of none".

 

[superbadd]

Let's look at what mew's all about.

Pros:
-Extensive movepool. Mew can learn every tm and tutor move giving it an incredible selection and array of moves to use along with having every coverage move a pokemon could ask for
-Surprise factor. Due to mew's amazing movepool you never know what its gonna run, which when using it already gives the opposing player an advantage.
Cons:
-Typing. Psychic typing is both awful offensively and defensively, being weak to ghost, dark, and bug typing is pretty bad in uu, especially when those attacking types are quite common.
-Jack of all trades. While mew has every move it could ask for, it can't abuse it as well as it would like. Sweeping sets are mediocre while Baton pass is quite easily shut down. The only thing mew has that no other pokemon has, is the stall breaker set. But even that faces competition with sableye who has prankster and better typing.

How mew affects the metagame: Mew doesn't really hinder anything, except meloetta who's typing, mixed sets, and superior special attack stat is enough to distinguish her from mew. Mew makes a solid check to most offensive threats(such as the nido's, azelf, roserade, ect..), which makes it a good candidate for stall teams. In short, all mew really does is fill the gap that your team has. It just an all purpose glue for any team that's missing something.

Versatility doesn't mean shit when everything can do what mew can do, but better. Mew has two good sets, Stallbreaker and Baton pass. 100 everything is solid, but due to mew's awful typing and lack of distinguishable traits it really just isn't as good as some people make it out to be. Mew also has a 100% counter in sableye, who can shut down every set mew has and stall it out. Being weak to every entry hazard doesn't help mew's case either. Bad typing, average stats, and unpredictability. Those are all things that describe mew. Banning something on the grounds that it's too versatile is just plain moronic. If the metagame were predictable it would be boring. Mew keeps you standing on your toes when you're facing it, I don't know why that's too much for some people.

 

[Chimera404]

That was afast ban vote.

I agree with Superbadd: Versatility =/= broken.
It was horrible to face the first time around, but now that it's back... it's not all that common and there are better Pokemon for the offensive roles it can play. It's physical set is mediocre now because, well, Victini has better movepool and V-Create, and its special set is nothing special (c wut i did thar lol) though it's got the bulk to back up more boosts. It's most effective set is Taunt Stallbreaker but it loses to stuff like Chandelure et al when it Will-O-Wisps... as well as the occasional Guts Scarf Heracross (still good). Still can't beat Hybrid Togekiss no matter what it tries. Mew doesn't unbalance the meta. It's arguably not affecting the meta too much even with is wonderfully distributed stats.

I like the odd Choice Scarf Transform Mew because lol.

 

[TheSpecialOne]

Mew is definetly a good Pokemon, but I'd say no ban. Yes, it is very versatile as most people have already mentioned and access to boosting moves, but banning Mew because of its unpredictability is not right in my opinion. If you compare Mew to Kingdra, they are similar in offensive aspects: they can both go physical or special. Mew has more bulk, and Kingdra has access to Swift Swim + Rain Boosted Water-type attacks, meaning it will most times be the fastest Pokemon in a battle. However, they both require turns to set up and if you play smart, (going back to Mew) you can easily work around it and take out Mew unharmed. Moreover, being #1 and #2 in usage, Heracross and Chandelure with a Choice Scarf can come in and OHKO with Megahorn and Shadow Ball respectively. Mew has access to priority, but Sucker Punch is not the most reliable move in that aspect. As for the stallbreaker set, it has a full stop in the form of Xatu and Fire-types get a free switch-in. Psychic is also not the best defensive-typing. Overall, Mew is a top threat, but nowhere near broken

 

[RainbowCrash]

Personally i would say no to banning it and here is my reasoning behind it

It is the jack of all traits master of none.When you find out what set it is (which does not take to long ) it is very mediocre at it

1.Taunt Wow- i know it has more bulk but sableye's priority is just invaluable.The ability to Wow stall any phisical attacker is just in one word Amazballs.If you think sabeleye is too frail then cofagirgus is a better option with his superior bulk and imo better typing in this meta.It also acts as a spinblocker and with the high blastiose usage this is very valuable

2.Nasty Plot-Azelf out classes this with its better speed and spec atk.Mew is easily revenged killed by offensive Mismagius. 4/0/0 investment is OHKO my a sucker punch from Honchcrow (107% - 126.3%) and scarf hera does 112.3% - 132.2% with Megahorn i just dont feel its potent enough.I know azelf has the same faults but if SP this priority is a high concern use a mismagius

3.Baton Pass-this may be a little bias because i hate baton pass as a tactic but here it goes. Agility is the most common stat to be passed and i think if you really want to go with that tactic the use a zaptos.It has a much better typing for this job of taking a hit first and resists the all mighty u-turn

4.Swords Dance-outclassed hands down by Cobalion it has a better typing and fighting stab is much better that psychic on a physical attacker.With slowbro/gligar running around even at +2 is going to find it hard to break these pokemon without a psychical super effective move

In Summery imo Its not broken and should not be banned at all versatility does not equal ban unless the poke outclasses a good chunk of the meta with these sets

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm not a fan of argument that mew is broken because it can a near infinite amount of sets. Whatever, a choice scarf set or a choice band set isn't going to win you games via surprise factor alone. If you actually "play the game", you'll realize that the only sets worth examining are Nasty Plot, Swords Dance and Stallbreaker. Nasty Plot is by far the strongest set, and I can legitimately see why people would want it banned.

Dealing with the NP Mew straight up puts any Pokemon that switches in severe danger of dying or getting crippled. Which would be FINE if it wasn't so goddamn naturally bulky; it usually requires 2 strongs neutral hits to take it down. Contrary to popular belief, Psychic typing is a goddamned blessing in UU; you resist Fighting-type moves, and its weaknesses aren't very common. Dark / Ghost are rare / vulnerable to Mew and Bug types (!not heracross) are close to being non-existent. I actually don't even think SD Mew is that big of a deal, i'd even call it overrated (it just... straight up loses to so many Pokemon, like Slowbro, Sableye, etc) It's good by virtue of the fact that NP exists. Pokemon that you could switch in to check NP (by switching into NP or a resisted coverage move) are "kinda" vulnerable to Sucker Punch (like Victini) and +2 non stabbed Sucker Punch kind of hurts, but really its all about NP.

Solution? All of you motherfuckers should use Zoroark / Sub Mismagius / Scarf Krookodile.
So you can only really deal with it by relying on faster checks; it lacks any counters to speak of at +2, which isn't all that different from Azelf, but Mew's vastly superior bulk lets it have an easier time setting up. Despite all of that, I don't think Mew is broken. I see it as top tier UU Pokemon (ala DPP UU Venusaur was borderline broken) that requires a little bit of thought.

Real Solution: Stop running outdated teams? Stop using Mew weak Pokemon if necessary? Running a team consisting of Nidoqueen, SD Heracross, 4 more Mew weak Pokemon is an obvious recipe for disaster.

 

[pokemonisfun]

some funny things i read...

Azelf outclasses Mew as a NP attacker

Cobalion outclasses Mew as an SD attacker

If you play smart you can easily work around Mew and take him out unharmed

Mew doesn't hinder anything

Victini has a better movepool

Mew's special set is nothing special (that one was funny in the haha sense)

There are some very strong arguments why Mew should stay in UU, of course the argument to ban him is even stronger but I might make another post on that later, but there are some appallingly weak arguments to keep Mew in UU too.

Someone and I wont say who (you can read yourself) says Mew is outclassed by Azelf as an NP attacker. This is wrong because mew can actually survive attacks from offensive Pokemon. It can for instance live an EQ from Rhyperior whereas Azelf would die to a Stone Edge. Mew could set up an NP and then recover the majority of it health back by Giga Drain as opposed to Azelf who would just float and die or at best get a KO with the niche Grass Knot but come out without any boosts.

Cobalion outclasses Mew as a SD user?!?! Really?!? Since when did Cobalion get priority??? Or Drain Punch?!!!!!! Or the ability to set up on a special attacker like say opposing Azelf!!??

You cannot take out Mew unharmed almost no matter what unless you are using like mono bug (and even then it could sucker punch you for a wee bit of damage). Its just that simple. Every Mew set has the power to deal large amounts of damage, whether over time (those cruddy stallbreaker sets if you want) or immediately (boosters, maybe even specs or scarf or band??). They all have large amounts of bulk to practically guarantee something is going to get hurt, whether its weakening a key pokemon on you ropponents team or just sweeping them completely is the only question.

Of course mew hinders stuff. Otherwise nobody would use it. Mew for instance hinders greatly machamp usage. Whereas the other fighters can usually get around Mew by typing or uturn Machamp is often dead in the water without serious confusion hax against Mew. It hinders the poison types in UU by STABing them to death.

yeah V-Create is cool and all but Victini does not have a better movepool, although I guess that statement could have been interpreted as "Victini just got a better movepool (Bolt Strike).

As a conclusion I would like to propose banning not Mew as a whole but simply banning 510 ev Mew. Yes with 300 or maybe 250 or so evs Mew may still be versatile but not nearly as potent which is where Mews brokenness lays. I am being completely serious.

 

[Shiny Mew]

Mew also has access to Aura Sphere so if Azelf wants to run Hidden Power Fighting it loses 1 IV in speed making it slower than Mienshao not to mention a +2 LO Aura Sphere from Timid Mew does more damage than a +2 LO HP fighting from Timid Azelf. Also:
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao U-turn vs 4 HP/0 Def Azelf: 89.04% - 104.71% 31.25% chance to OHKO and OHKO after Stealth Rock.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao U-turn vs 4 HP/0 Def Mew: 56.73% - 66.67% 2 hits to KO
Which means Mienshao easily checks Nasty Plot Azelf by 1 speed point but can't check Nasty Plot Mew. Nasty Plot Mew is just overall better than Nasty Plot Azelf IMO it has more bulk to take hits and KO more pokemon and the more powerful Aura Sphere.

@RainbowCrash Sableye is pretty easy to deal with it can't stay in on any strong special attacker as it risks getting OHKO'd. Mew doesn't have these problems because even without EV's in special defense it can still take special attacks well and Roost up any damage it takes. Mew can also afford to miss a WoW due to how bulky it is, Sableye really can't afford to. Mew can switch into attacks much easier also. I found it difficult to switch in Sableye as after SR it took too much damage from attacks. Yes it has priority Recover but the opponent will probably just keep on attacking and if you keep recovering a crit will eventually happen. Mew can also set up rocks if you can't find something else to have it.

Mew has Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, Taunt, Hypnosis, Bulk Up, Barrier, Amnesia making it a much better baton passer than Zapdos. Really Zapdos has better things to be doing than passing Agility which Mew does better.

Mew has more Attack than Cobalion so the only thing Cobalion has that hits harder is Close Combat which is resisted by a lot in UU. Mew has perfect coverage in Drain Punch, Sucker Punch and Zen Headbutt which has a chance to flinch. Cobalion can't deal with Scarf Victini or Chandelure while Mew can beat them with Sucker Punch.

NP Mew can beat both Zoroark and Scarf Krookodile with Vacuum Wave so their not really safe checks to it. Though it would be rare to face one with Vacuum Wave so I guess they are checks most of the time.

The only reason Mew is still UU is because few people take advantage of it.

 

[TPO3]

if Azelf wants to run Hidden Power Fighting it loses 1 IV in speed making it slower than Mienshao

...Azelf is base 115 and Mienshao is base 105. If Azelf uses HP Fighting, the only mons it now loses to are Raikou and Ambipom, neither of which it should be staying in on anyways.

also

Mew has Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, Taunt, Hypnosis, Bulk Up, Barrier, Amnesia making it a much better baton passer than Zapdos. Really Zapdos has better things to be doing than passing Agility which Mew does better.

^This. Everybody says Mew is a "Jack of all trades, master of none." But Mew really is a master of Baton Pass. It's probably the best baton passer in the game, aside from maybe Ninjask (which is rather one-dimensional.) It gets boosting moves in every stat of all kinds, it gets +2 moves and +1/+1 moves, and it also has Taunt and Substitute.

Now I don't think the Baton Pass Mew is what makes Mew broken. I just thought I'd post my opinions. Zapdos is definitely not a better passer than Mew. Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock, doesn't have Taunt, only passes Agility/Substitute, and has more common weaknesses (Ice and Rock) as opposed to Mew's Dark (some rely on Sucker Punch), Bug (only 2 pokemon in the entire tier.) and Ghost (most of which can't OHKO.) Mew gets Rock Polish, plus every other tool a Baton Passer could dream of.

 

[kokoloko]

lol most of the posts in this thread make me wonder if people have even used Mew...

Here, I'm going to post my favorite set thus far, so you guys can try it out:

First off, Azelf in no way outclasses Mew as a Nasty Plot user because Mew can set up much, much more easily. Before I go any further, I'm just going to go ahead and state that PK is right in saying NP is Mew's best and most threatening set--the others are okay too, but NP is just too consistent.

Anyway, what's so absolutely brilliant about Mew is that it can run a few different NP sets, all of them equally effective, but each can fill a different niche. Let me give you some examples.

Afraid of Heracross? Sure, just slap a Tanga Berry on it and watch as it fails to OHKO with Megahorn and you OHKO with Psyshock in return (and probably proceed to sweep).

Chandelure? Sure, Kasib Berry. Weavile? Colbur Berry.

Not only does this turn it into a great lure, but a lot of times people only run one or two checks to it, so it leads to sweeps.

Afraid of stall? Sure, just slap a Lum Berry on it and watch it sweep nearly every single stall team.

Don't even try that "every Pokemon can use resist Berries" bullshit, btw, because nothing in UU can use them nearly as well as Mew can. Don't believe me? Try it with Azelf and see how that goes. You need the bulk, Speed, and power that Mew has to make them work properly.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not declaring my vote just yet. I'm not sure I'd call Mew broken at this point, but it damn sure does a ton of work every time I use it. The main reason I'm hesitating here is because when other people use it against me, its nowhere near as impressive (and none of my teams are particularly over-prepared to face it, either).

That's all for now.

Oh and we're not banning 510 EV Mew that's the dumbest shit I have ever heard...

 

[Chimera404]

@hilarious That is waaaay too complex for a ban. Completely serious.

Azelf runs a very different role from Mew when it NPs. They both have their flaws, but Mew is BULK BULK BULK where Azelf is SPEED SPEED SPEED and has a much higher special attack. Base 100 doesn't cut it where some of the more threatening opponents, such as Raikou, lie at Base 115 and can beat Mew, iirc, with SubCM as Mew has no way of boosting its SpDef if it's running Nasty Plot. Azelf has a small chance to nab a victory... Mew is still more reliable. Having said that, though, Mew's special set really is nothing special because there are some equally threatening boosting sweepers in UU. Good =/= special.

Cobalion is arguably not as good as Mew for SD, but it's faster, has more physical bulk, less special bulk... It's comparable TBH, and Drain Punch misses out on some KO's CC or HJK nab, though it's more reliable. All Mew has, really, is impressive total bulk, decent speed, Sucker Punch as priority, and horrible typing, offensively and defensively. Then there's everything else in the tier with access to SD, including Guts Heracross who is the best wallbreaker in tier, and Virizion, who trolls bulky waters in a way that Mew simply can't.

hilarious, you say that you can't beat Mew without taking damage. You also can't beat Kingdra, Victini (debatable), Raikou, or Togekiss (surprising but definitely true) without taking damage. Does that make them broken? Hell no, they're just top-tier threats.

The statement "Victini has a better movepool" SHOULD be interpreted as it just got one (Bolt Strike AND Blue Flare, which make it a deadly mixed attacker)

Mew isn't broken. It's far from broken. It's great, and fulfills many roles such as bulky sweeper, stallbreaker, or scarf transformer (lol)... but it's not essential on a team, and it's not essential to pack a counter.

Neeext...
@kokoloko,
Not EVERYTHING can use resist berries and it's true that Mew does it better than most, but it's hardly the greatest lure of all time. You could, for example, run rock resist berry on Chandelure to wipe out ScarfCross and Rhyperior... or water resist which is vaguely better.

You might run the most amazing Mew set in the world, and you're definitely good enough to sweep with it, but if it's just a single set that's really good on Mew, then versatility really doesn't matter, does it?

 

[kokoloko]

First of all, Raikou does not beat Mew one-on-one. Not Psyshock variants anyway. Cobalion is a ridiculous comparison because it is in absolutely no way similar to Mew, so I'm not even sure why you keep bringing it up.

Why are you still insisting Psychic is bad typing? This is not OU, where Genesect / Scizor / Tyranitar reign supreme. This is UU; the tier that's about 20% Fighting-types and where there's only about 5 viable Psychic-type resists.

Also your Chandelure example is absurd. Heracross would not come in on Chandelure and risk missing Stone Edge unless its team was already on the brink of losing anyway... and Rhyperior is slower, dies to Energy Ball, and can Earthquake anyway.

Please think before you post. Seriously, I even said in the OP that I wouldn't tolerate stupid posts, and about half of the posts in this thread are very close to crossing that line.

 

[Chimera404]

My apologies if I've offended you somehow.
The Cobalion reference was because someone brought it up, then hilarious decided to debunk it, then I said that they play quite similarly as far as SD sets go. I could very likely be wrong, but it seemed reasonable to compare them as they have similar movesets and playstyles.

I honestly had some problems figuring out why you'd run a resist berry just to lure a specific Pokemon out, as there are better things to do with an item slot or even a team slot, but not the point here. My point is that anything with a reasonable amount of bulk - say, Togekiss, which is a better example now that I think of it, as you're right about Chandy - can run a lure set. Mew might do it decently but it loses whatever item it would normally carry in the first place, and it can't swap into those types of attacks like a counter would be able to. Lures are great, but then you've essentially got a weakened Pokemon with no item, meaning that you're not SIGNIFICANTLY better off than when you started. You don't need a check to stop a weakened Pokemon. Anything faster will do.

Also, people WILL swap Heracross into Chandy, especially because SE is a 1hko and 80% is good enough for some people.

I apologize for the bashing on Psychic types. Bugs do troll them, you know, and so do darks... and ghosts... But I must agree, they're much better than in OU. Numerically speaking, however, they do have a significant number of weaknesses and don't do SE damage to a large portion of the tier. Most fighting types will either swap, U-turn out, or hit with an SE Megahorn and then you're behind in the momentum game.

 

[Victini Owns]

Am I the only who finds the Nasty Plot set very underwhelming? Mew just doesn't hit hard enough, often gets hit by Toxic and it's checked by too much stuff. Life Orb makes it not last very long and plus the hit it takes while setting up and it's already most of the time below 50% HP. Maybe I'm expecting too much from it or using it wrong but I really don't see why it's considered the best set. Anyways I don't think Mew is broken at least I don't find it as threatening as other UU pokemon like Darmanitan, Kingdra, Victini etc. Each set has it's own counters. The problem with Mew is it has to set up to be a threat, it doesn't have the immediate power like Victini, Specs Kingdra, Choice Band Rhypherior who can all do huge damage on turn 1 with their powerful STAB's. Almost every Mew I have faced has done little to my team and with good prediction I always beat it easily. Another thing I have found is that Mew usually never uses an attack move turn 1 so it's easy to switch something in on it and see what set it's using making it easier to beat. Not saying Mew is bad or anything don't get me wrong it's a solid pokemon to use in UU but it's far from broken.

 

[Pocket]

Psychic is a really shitty typing, though, and it's probably the main reason why Mew's so manageable in UU.

For one, Psychic STAB moves are SHIT - low bp and poor super-effective coverage with plentiful of resistances. That's probably the main reason why Mew has quite a 4MSS. If it was a Dark-type or a Ghost-type, it can simply choose Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball + Aura Sphere + Fire Blast and it's good to go. Because people want that awesome STAB fsr, they pack in Psyshock / Psychic and find themselves checked by Umbreon (without Aura Sphere), Slowbro / Slowking (without Shadow Ball or Thunderbolt), Bronzong (without Fire Blast), or Victini (without Shadow ball).

And then, there's also Mew's exploitable weaknesses that force it out, relinquishing its boosts. PK Gaming, do you really believe that Mew's weaknesses are not common?! Even in the top 25 of UU, there's fucking Heracross's Megahorn, Umbreon's Foul Play, Cofagrigus & Chandelure's Shadow Ball... how could you know these facts and call Mew's weaknesses uncommon x_x;; Resisting Fighting-types is cool I guess, but it doesn't really help when said Fighting-types have an alternative STAB that butchers Mew (Heracross & Scrafty) or a super-effective momentum-grabbing move (Mienshao). Most Fighting-types in UU have means to severely damage offensive Mew, regardless of its bulk.

In fact if it wasn't for Mew's immense movepool and bulk combined, Mew would probably be sitting in RU or BL2 right now. Its versatility is its main selling point in UU, and that's what keeps Mew viable in UU, rather than being dumped down to RU. Despite its rather plain offensive stats and even worse typing, Mew possess these major advantages to stick around in UU.

Kingdra and Mew are good comparisons. They were both suspects, and it was argued that Kingdra was too bulky and "unpredictable," with its physical sets having different counters from its special sets. However, in the end, UU senators concluded that Kingdra doesn't pack that immediate punch to abuse its bulk, and largely managed by UU players without overpreparation.

IMO, Kingdra is a much bigger powerhouse than Mew. It may have worse offensive stats, but it has PHENOMENAL offensive typing in Dragon / Water. Associated to its typing are powerful nuke moves, such as Hydro Pump, Draco Meteor, and Outrage. With these moves, it can perfectly go mixed and hit hard from both spectrums. Unlike Psyshock, these are also perfectly spammable moves, which is why Kingdra can hold a Choice Specs and destroy teams. It has Dragon Dance to boost both its Speed and Attack at once, as well as Rain Dance to double its Speed and boost its STAB Water offense even further.

If we conclude that Kingdra of all things lack immediate punch, then it's absurd that we claim Mew as a powerhouse with NP merely doubling its paltry offense. Give Mew Shell Smash / Quiver Dance / Tail Glow, or a better offensive typing, and THEN we can talk.

I've played just under 100 games (and still playing), and I came across a couple of Mews of various sets; none of them accomplished much of significance (although a SD set almost screwed me). They were hardly impressive; yes the UU ladder may be shit, but I would expect at least ONE player to crush me with Mew and plant a seed of doubt of Mew's UU status. Heracross, Darmanitan, and hell even Nidoking were far more dangerous and prevalent threat than Mew.

I do have to admit, though - that Mew's BP set is probably it's most frightening set. It has the bulk to set-up, and now these boosts are offered to a much more dangerous threat. It can take advantage of its versatility to pull off a surprise Baton Pass to a mon like Agility Zapdos and it's game. I have yet to see one pull this off successfully, though, and it may even be that I'm overestimating Mew's role as a BPer.

 

[superbadd]

I agree with pocket, psychic typing isn't that great and its that typing is what really screws mew over. More over, once you figure out what set mew's running, then it becomes mediocre because it relinquish the one special thing about mew and that's its surprise factor. @Kokoloko I think it's ridiculous that you suggested to slap on a bug/dark/ghost resist berry on mew. Sure it can pull it off with its bulk, but it's a one time use, and quite frankly a gimmick if anything else. I've tried mew myself, and honestly, it's quite disappointing. There were instances were it pulled off a sweep but that was either against a bunch of bad players or it required half the team to support its ass. If mew can't be used to sweep/support teams consistently by an average player, then I don't think it's broken. If something were broken you'd have a lot of success with it and i'd be easy to use(Like goth, staraptor, and kyurem), that simply doesn't describe mew. If it takes skill to pull something off then obviously how good it is depends on the person using it.

 

[Machi]

My apologies if I've offended you somehow.
The Cobalion reference was because someone brought it up, then hilarious decided to debunk it, then I said that they play quite similarly as far as SD sets go. I could very likely be wrong, but it seemed reasonable to compare them as they have similar movesets and playstyles.

Have you actually played Mew with SD and Coballion with SD because its not coming across well when you consider them to play similarly. Drain Punch and Close Combat does make all the difference. Mew may not be OHKOing with Drain Punch but it certainly gains longevity and is more difficult to revenge because of that recovery. Coballion on the other hand loses longevity and becomes quite prone to revenge because of CC - you could use his signature move but yeah you lose out on power on a mon that already somewhat lacks it. Moreover, the two mons tend to have very different set up opportunities, arguably Mew having the advantage because its far less predictable than Coballion. They don't at all play similar with the SD set as Mew is a bulky sweeper while Coballion is pretty much your standard offensive sweeper. (Also who the heck still uses SD Coba when he's better off going mixed support)

I honestly had some problems figuring out why you'd run a resist berry just to lure a specific Pokemon out, as there are better things to do with an item slot or even a team slot, but not the point here. My point is that anything with a reasonable amount of bulk - say, Togekiss, which is a better example now that I think of it, as you're right about Chandy - can run a lure set. Mew might do it decently but it loses whatever item it would normally carry in the first place, and it can't swap into those types of attacks like a counter would be able to. Lures are great, but then you've essentially got a weakened Pokemon with no item, meaning that you're not SIGNIFICANTLY better off than when you started. You don't need a check to stop a weakened Pokemon. Anything faster will do.

Mew isn't exactly weakened by much given that it does have bulk to back it up so it ends up being relatively more healthy than you're giving it credit. And its easy to say "Anything faster will do." until you consider that 100 bench mark is about as speedy as you get in the UU tier (course we have speedier mons but non as bulky) so fulfilling the conditions of both being faster and bulky is a criteria that very few actually fit into. Also even without an item it is easier for NP Mew to be threatening because again not much are oriented towards being specially defensive, doesn't help that the meta lends itself even better to that because of the prominence of fighting types and fire types being more or less physical.

Also, people WILL swap Heracross into Chandy, especially because SE is a 1hko and 80% is good enough for some people.

I'd argue that only bad players would swap Heracross INTO Chandy because he's not exactly going to survive a STAB Fireblast or Shadow Ball off a 145 base SpA. As for Chandy switching into Heracross that is a different story in that is more about prediction (and a Lure with HP EVs can survive an SE). Chandelure will often either attack straight out or hide behind a sub, in both scenarios its not favorable to swap Hera into Lure.

I apologize for the bashing on Psychic types. Bugs do troll them, you know, and so do darks... and ghosts... But I must agree, they're much better than in OU. Numerically speaking, however, they do have a significant number of weaknesses and don't do SE damage to a large portion of the tier. Most fighting types will either swap, U-turn out, or hit with an SE Megahorn and then you're behind in the momentum game.

The only fighting type that would U-turn is Meinshao and he's not exactly the bulkiest fighter so again its incredibly risky on your end to necessarily switch into Mew, because you're assuming you can consistently predict that set up move, then you'd still have the issue of the incoming mon taking the +2 attack. Also I wouldn't say Psychic is necessarily that bad when Psyshock is the move of choice on the said NP set because its role is to allow Mew to hit through specially defensive mons - or winning CM wars.

As for the rest of the bug types barring Heracross - who'd only threaten a non defensive Mew - you're in limited supply up in UU (Venomoth won't be staying in while Yanmega is harder to fit into a team). I think you're actually referring to Dark type attacks more than bug types since again barring Heracross those would be more common place than bug type attacks. And if we look at dark type attacks it ends up being a prediction match or attempt at revenge kill (since Mew isn't going to be spamming Psyshock but Shadow Ball or Aura Sphere).

I'll comment on BP sets later.

 

[Chimera404]

As an alternative to holistically debating whether it's broken or not, because that's really saying "we should ban something this round, so let's see if Mew fits" let's try quantifying and categorizing the brokenness of Mew.

This might be a good starting point, specifically the bottom of the OP. It was written for BW1 and the top part was DPP but the fact remains that the classification standard still fits our current UU tier quite well - for example, most of the justification for banning Gothitelle fit under the Support Clause.

Let's take a look at Mew with the DPP brokenness standards:
1. Offensive Characteristic:
Mew is a very potent offensive force in the right hands, as hilarious and kokoloko have correctly argued for. It has versatility in buckets, near-perfect neutral coverage, and the capability to run either physical or special boosting sets, making it tricky to play around until it reveals its moveset. Its Base 100 speed tier is also a godsend, speed-tying or outspeeding a large part of the UU tier.

On the other hand, as superbadd, Pocket, I and a couple others have pointed out, Psychic is just numerically a bad typing and it doesn't get STAB SE hits on anything that's willing to stay into it. It requires much team support just to do its job and can't really do anything if it can't get a boost, say against Taunting Froslass. Its sweeping sets really don't have the speed or defensive typing to stay into, say, Heracross.

2. Defensive Characteristic:
Mew's 100/100/100 defenses are bulky in UU, but the typing is horrendous. Do not use a wall version of Mew. There are better Pokemon out there. Mew will never be a good wall until Heracross, Weavile, and Chandelure get out of the tier.

3. Support Characteristic:
One of Mew's arguably most effective sets is the Taunting Stallbreaker set, which can wreck stall... as rare as stall teams are. It's horribly annoying to face as an offensive team as it Softboils off the puny damage you inflict to it after being burned, and can wreck entire teams just by staying in, sponging resisted Fighting moves, and burning the unholy crap out of stuff.

Nobody's really provided any sort of justification, however, as to why this set is broken. It has a lot of potential, especially against slower physical attackers not named Darmanitan, but unlike the first time it was in the tier, the meta's not particularly vulnerable to it.

4. Overcentralizing Clause (Does this Pokemon force you to build your team around it?)
Arguably, no. You can run the same stuff, and I completely ignored Mew when it dropped in favor of shiny new toys in Meloetta, who's better with Mixed Sweeping sets, and AcroNadus who pulls his weight completely. The only things that are really hampered are Machamp and, uh... Ambipom? Still has Beat Up, though.

We've focused a LOT on the offensive sets it seems. Pocket's post makes a lot of sense regarding the NP set - 4mss is horrible for it, as are the low BP moves it's forced to use. Remember, kiddies: Hydro Pump coming off of Base 95 SpA hurts a heck of a lot more than a Psyshock or even a Psychic coming from a Base 100 SpA, and then there's the holy grail of hit-and-GTFO moves, Draco Meteor.

@Machi:
Damn it you ninja'd my post at the same time I was writing it, lol
SD Cobalion is no longer as viable but still annoying to encounter when you're expecting a Mixed Support set. Well, idk what else does a similar SD set to Mew, but that doesn't make it broken, just unique.

When I said swapping into Chandy I meant revenge killing, maybe using Megahorn to predict a swap or just whacking it to kingdom come with Stone Edge. There's really no justification, you are correct, in swapping Hera into Mew.

The point isn't 'what can swap into Mew' it's 'what can Mew swap into as a resist and not get trolled as a result from SE attacks' because, you know, U-turn.

You're right, Dark>Bug for trolling Mew, and then Cofagrigus. Oh jeez, Cofag laughs at Mew's SD set, and can TR while Mew NPs for the outspeed and win.

 

[cim]

Let's take a look at Mew with the DPP brokenness standards:

You mean the characteristics we threw out and decided not to use for the 5th generation? Even so, the 4th "overcentralizing clause" is something you just made up - never in DPP was "overcentralizing" a ban characteristic.

For all of those arguing that Stallbreaker is broken - what about Sabeleye? Isn't he essentially the same Pokemon, exchanging stats for typing and Prankster?

Oh jeez, Cofag laughs at Mew's SD set, and can TR while Mew NPs for the outspeed and win.

You realize Mew is going to be NPing as Cofagrigus switches in, right?

 

[Maci12]

Mew is undoubtedly a powerful offensive and defensive presence in the metagame, but not one I'm necessarily comfortable calling ban-worthy. I tend to agree with the people that say extreme versatility does not equate to an OP pokemon, for while Mew has endless options a vast majority of Mews fall into standard sets that are extremely predictable based on the team Mew is placed on.

Nasty Plot Mew is one of the biggest threats in the metagame. While it is true that Azelf has more speed and power to back up his sweep, he does not have the ability to force switches like Mew, nor the bulk to set up more than once. That being said, I find NP Mew an uncomfortably easy sweeper to force out. Mew's Base 100 speed, while fairly competitive for the tier, is not equipped to deal with the pokemon that threaten its sweep the most. I don't make too much conscious effort in having a NP Mew counter when building my team, and thus Mew generally wins at least one KO from my team if it gets the proper set up. After that, however, I can usually force it to leave by threatening it with a faster pokemon like ScarfMoxieCross, Weavile, or Honchkrow (Sucker Punch). Now, with its main counters eliminated, NP Mew can easily set up and sweep an entire team, but so can just about any sweeper with the right support. I would not deem this particular set game breaking.

Swords Dance Mew - This is one of my favorite incarnations of Mew as it has a great factor of surprise, punches holes in the opponents Special and Physical Walls, and lures many of NP Mew's common counters to their doom. Mew's ability to utilize priority and heal itself (Sucker Punch and Drain Punch respectively) and have a third slot for just about any coverage move you could dream of makes it an intimidating threat. However, I once again find myself hardpressed to call it OP. It gets its surprise sweeps, but is once again easily revenge killed. 100/100/100 defenses are incredible, but if there isn't much or any investment in them, Mew will still fall to powerful strikes from faster pokemon, especially after the hazards that are so ubiquitous in this tier.

Stall-Breaker Mew - This set is actually th most annoying to my team. People have alleged that Sableye is like Mew with worse stats and better typing and Crobat is like this with better speed and the ability to counter Heracross, but that does not take into account a lot of other factors. Mew, unlike Sableye, can deal with Special as well as physical threats, taking out major threats like Nidoking with a Psyshock. There are very few physical sweepers that can get past this set, particularly because this is one of the most unpredictable of the Mew sets. The EVs can be tailored to bring down just about any pokemon in the tier. Heracross loses to an especially bulky 232 HP/252 Def/32 Spe version of Mew. Nidoking loses to a faster variant that can kill it with Psyshock. Snorlax commonly loses to any variant with Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, and Psyshock. There are some pokemon that present a challenge for Mew to break through because this Mew doesn't utilize it's offensive abilities, but when they are taken down, this more defensive Mew can break teams.

It is a tough decision with a pokemon this versatile in the metagame, but I ultimately believe that Mew, while certainly among the gods of the tier like Raikou and Heracross, is not overpowered or breaking the tier.

 

[PK Gaming]

Easy chief, i'm on your side.

For one, Psychic STAB moves are SHIT - low bp and poor super-effective coverage with plentiful of resistances. That's probably the main reason why Mew has quite a 4MSS. If it was a Dark-type or a Ghost-type, it can simply choose Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball + Aura Sphere + Fire Blast and it's good to go. Because people want that awesome STAB fsr, they pack in Psyshock / Psychic and find themselves checked by Umbreon (without Aura Sphere), Slowbro / Slowking (without Shadow Ball or Thunderbolt), Bronzong (without Fire Blast), or Victini (without Shadow ball).

Mew does not have coverage issues, you're way off the mark on that. Going by your list, A moveset consisting of NP / Psychic(shock) / Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball hits every relevant Mew check in the tier for at least neutral damage (with most of them being hit for SE damage). The only target you miss is Bronzong, but I would rather be checked it (a meh check at best, its Gyro Balls can only 3HKO) than lose to any of the other Pokemon you listed.

And then, there's also Mew's exploitable weaknesses that force it out, relinquishing its boosts. PK Gaming, do you really believe that Mew's weaknesses are not common?! Even in the top 25 of UU, there's fucking Heracross's Megahorn, Umbreon's Foul Play, Cofagrigus & Chandelure's Shadow Ball... how could you know these facts and call Mew's weaknesses uncommon x_x;; Resisting Fighting-types is cool I guess, but it doesn't really help when said Fighting-types have an alternative STAB that butchers Mew (Heracross & Scrafty) or a super-effective momentum-grabbing move (Mienshao). Most Fighting-types in UU have means to severely damage offensive Mew, regardless of its bulk.

Yes, I really do believe that Mew's psychic-type is actually a blessing in disguise. I've already mentioned that the only relevant Bug-type in UU is Heracross, but it needs to run a Choice Scarf if it wants to check Mew. Choice Scarf Heracross already checks like 70% of the tier, so should we really hold that against Mew? After all, Choice Scarf Heracross could check the late Kyurem; trust me being checked by Choice Scarf Heracross does not in anyway make that.

I should probably have elaborated that the majority of the Pokemon that have SE moves against Mew can't actually beat it if they switch in. Let's look at the ghost-types: You think Chandelure is a Mew check? The Pokemon that gets bodied by +2 Psychic(shock) or 0+ Shadow Ball(after SR) is a Mew check? Standard Cofagrigus will lose if it switches in on NP as it doesn't come close to OHKOing with Shadow Ball, and +2 Mew can OHKO with Shadow Ball or 2HKO with a Psychic move. Umbreon will lose to +2 Aura Sphere, and fails to OHKO in return with Foul Play. Don't get me wrong, Mew's Psychic typing isn't "great" by any stretch but its certainly not "bad" as you're making it seem. Look at the top 30ish UU Pokemon. Most of the common offensive Pokemon (save for heracross) in the tier can't actually hit Mew for Super Effective damage, and the defensive will usually lose 1 v 1. This is why some people might have issues with Mew. (Weak-ass U-turn's do not count for reasons which I don't have to explain.) I disagree, but I can see why someone would have a problem with Mew. It's different from say... Darmanitan who's also notoriously difficult to counter, but its
1. Frail
2. SR weak
3. Has multiple checks that can almost always OHKO it
4. Average speed

This is just an example, please don't respond to it directly. What about Zapdos? Unlike Mew, its got a few counters that straight up shut it down (Snorlax, and SpDperior if it's not running HP grass) and Electric-type is significantly easier to abuser than Psychic. Zapdos in general is a bitch to deal with, and that's largely due to its insanely fast speed by UU standards (which Mew shares!!). That said, its Psychic-typing could allow some underdogs like Zoroark, Krookodile & Mismagius to make a reappearance, which is something I don't actually have a problem with. 2 /3 of these Pokemon naturally outspeed Mew, and Krookodile predominately runs Scarf so its fine too. They also don't really mind Sucker Punch, which makes them pretty reliable Mew checks.

In fact if it wasn't for Mew's immense movepool and bulk combined, Mew would probably be sitting in RU or BL2 right now. Its versatility is its main selling point in UU, and that's what keeps Mew viable in UU, rather than being dumped down to RU. Despite its rather plain offensive stats and even worse typing, Mew possess these major advantages to stick around in UU.

I 100% disagree with that mentality (EX: if Mewtwo had base 90 stats across the board it wouldn't be Uber!) Quoting because :cloud:

Sorry bro, but that's against the rules. This is a Mew suspect discussion, don't try to argue that Mew isn't broken by saying its worse than Kingdra (which is something I actually kinda disagree with). I would avoided having to engage with Mew's alleged brokeness by bringing Kingdra into this, it just makes this discussion a lot more messy.

I've played just under 100 games (and still playing), and I came across a couple of Mews of various sets; none of them accomplished much of significance (although a SD set almost screwed me). They were hardly impressive; yes the UU ladder may be shit, but I would expect at least ONE player to crush me with Mew and plant a seed of doubt of Mew's UU status. Heracross, Darmanitan, and hell even Nidoking were far more dangerous and prevalent threat than Mew.

Solution: Play against some good UU players who use Mew. Actually scratch that, I don't want you playing someone like koko, beating him then posting "Mew isn't broken fuckers!" (jk)

I do have to admit, though - that Mew's BP set is probably it's most frightening set. It has the bulk to set-up, and now these boosts are offered to a much more dangerous threat. It can take advantage of its versatility to pull off a surprise Baton Pass to a mon like Agility Zapdos and it's game. I have yet to see one pull this off successfully, though, and it may even be that I'm overestimating Mew's role as a BPer.

I'd honestly run Smeargle or Gorebyss if you wanted a Baton Pass user. On dedicated Baton Pass teams, I agree Mew is fantastic.

 

[cim]

Mew does not have coverage issues, you're way off the mark on that. Going by your list, A moveset consisting of NP / Psychic(shock) / Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball hits every relevant Mew check in the tier for at least neutral damage (with most of them being hit for SE damage). The only target you miss is Bronzong, but I would rather be checked it (a meh check at best, its Gyro Balls can only 3HKO) than lose to any of the other Pokemon you listed.

Minor quibble: Bronzong is hit for neutral damage by Aura Sphere.

The thing about NP Mew is it's fucking versatile. I don't mean that Mew could be an NP or a SD sweeper; I mean NP Mew can beat whatever it has to, depending on your team. Consider the set NP / Psyshock / Fire Blast / Giga Drain. Bronzong is arguably more important to cover than Umbreon since it can actually do anything, Psyshock still beats Snorlax, and Giga Drain handles Slowbro and Rhyperior just fine. The NP set is potent, dangerous, and can be tailored to your team's exact specifications.

Ultimately, I believe while versatility makes a Pokemon more potent and dangerous, that alone doesn't make it broken. I'm still not sure if it is, but I can tell you that if it's going to be broken, it's going to be a combination of the fact that you have zero clue what it's going to do AND that even if you know it was NP, there's not much you could do anyway.