Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[ExperimentOne]

I agree with the ban. I won't post calcs or reasons because if you take few minutes to read through the entire thread, there are plenty of excellent arguments. Most of the anti ban are just a bunch of "lol learn2play" or "it has counters look, i sacrifice this pokemon, bring in this other one then willowisp the send out my rocky helmet ferrothorn. See? It has counters".

I just want to say to most of these people: this is a COMPETITIVE forum. Competitive meaning serious play. No one cares about your gimmicky counters. No one cares about your disgust of mega bans because they are cool. What people DO care about is creating a healthy COMPETITIVE metagame. If you want to play WiFi battles be my guest but that IS NOT COMPETITIVE.

I am an avid Magic the Gathering player. Even in that game which is DESIGNED to be competitive, there have been occasions in which Wizards of the Coast have created cards so powerful that they overcentralize the meta and have been banned. And this is a game that has tons of people designing cards so that DOES NOT happen. Pokemon is no such game. So there will be broken stuff like Khangaskan that needs to be banned.

Think about this: in a tournament in which the first prize is 5000 dollars, will you bring Khangaskan or will you bring your crappy counters? If its the former then you understand competitive battling. If its the latter, then I will laugh as your crappy team helps me get closer to my 5000 prize. I would guarantee that the top 5 teams of said tournament would consist of Khanga/Sableye/4 fillers. Its just that good. So please if you do not understand the concept of COMPETITIVE, just dont post.

 

[Uvood]

To develop on the points above, Kangaskhan isn't without counters/ checks. As mentioned, burns will hurt him bad, as they would any physical attacker. Rocky Helmet users like Skarmory and Ferrothorn combined with Sableye (a combo I currently run) don't struggle with him. However, the problem is the need to run either M-Kanga, or an M-Kanga counter at all times, or face death. It's like when Staraptor was banned from B/W UU. If I recall correctly, he pretty much tore through the metagame, leaving you running either Staraptor, or his thin counter list. It's a similar scenario here where, despite his predictability, Kangaskhan is too dominant to be allowed free roam in OU. Even though his checks are relatively common, they are few in number and really limit the options of the metagame, which I feel is the real issue here.

Well, no smart Kanga player is gonna let it get burned, and he can get around Rocky Helmet by Eartquaking. But as mentioned a lot in the thread already, the fact that pokes like Ferrothorn and Skarm would forego Leftovers for a generally bad item like Rocky Helmet, shows how overcentralizing the thing really is.

 

[Professor Birch]

Ok, I did not plan on adding my opinion but I guess I should. First off, I feel that sometimes we come to the conclusion too quickly. When something is challenging to take out or gives us some trouble, people tend to do this. "OMG SOOO BROKEN. GAMFREAK Y U DO DIS. GG NO RE." Therefore, I would like to start off by saying that I believe Kangaskhan Should STAY OU. Take the Blaziken ban into consideration, I am not a huge fan of banning things like these but I do understand why Blaziken would be banned. It was a major threat and was hard to contain but Talonflame can easily take him out. Other than that, it was hard to do. Kangaskhan on the other hand, is not as troublesome to deal with. Yes, the ability is annoying but the objective is to take it out early, not after it buffs the crap out of itself. Conkeldurr has a guaranteed 2hko with it and can live with Drain Punch as well as resisting Sucker Punch. In addition, Breloom is another pokemon that can take care of it without an issue. So, what I am saying is that other insanely common pokemon can take it out. Well that is my opinion and I am sure I piss people of with this but eh, my thoughts on the subject.

 

[ThePianoMan]

I use Mega-Kanga, have since the start of the meta-game in October. Have only played Pokébank OU - as that will be the main tier in the long run - and I don't think am a bad player (sit between 1800-1850 on the ladder atm), but I am still undecided about a ban. There is obviously a slight bias, as it has done very well in my team, as anything like it would, but in the same breath, it is difficult to straight bring it in, before or after it has mega'd.

The set I run, incidentally is:
Wasted Angel (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 HP / 188 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch
- Power-Up Punch

That speed puts me one above fully invested Breloom, so can take it out before Spore shenanigans. Fire Punch solves the issue of Skarm+Ferro, tho coming down to 41.66% health from Iron Bards+Rocky Helmet is no fun, even if it does take it out with the second hit.

It is rare to see Power-Up-Punch used/to use Power-Up-Punch, just because in the land of Gen 6, priority is king, and the majority that outspeeds Kanga can take it well, then priority move to finish it off. For example, I run Conkeldurr - mainly because Blissey got irritating, and a Stealth-Rocker as is generally standard, and between the two I can tend to take it out without sacking anything (Drain Punch has a decent chance to OHKO Kanga after rocks, and Return with 252+ Parental Bond doesn't KO, and has a 6%~ to after Rocks). I do understand one counter =/= no ban, I'm just saying how my counter works. I get that this is screwed by a boost to Kanga - I run Chandelure to absorb, then obvious Sucker Punch or switch as everyone running Chandelure should have a Scarf on it; either way, safe switch to Conkelderp. Then again, from this working, I assume many aren't running Crunch in Pokébank, otherwise that's the obvious go to move, as most should be sure they can take a hit from Chandy.

However, the more I read, the more I am inclined to think it doesn't belong in OU. I had issues beforehand with other Kangas, but still managed to beat it well enough, usually with good prediction and the fact everyone should have a Rotom-W in their team - that Willo <3 - and I have less issues with it nowadays, but people seem to be doing worse than I am with it. If it goes, it'll be hard to replace, but that's my issue, not Smogon's. Suppose tis a case of just seeing how the vote goes.

I will leave with one point: those saying Rocky Helmet Ferro/Garchomp are new, are you sure? I saw them all over last gen, more so on Ferro, less on Garchomp, but they were all over. But that is irrelevant.

 

[SKotty98]

So, I think that it should be in uber atm, but I don't think that it is as broken as the likes of talonflame, which is one of the few that can actually break this thing. Kanga is fairly bulky with only 1 weakness, requires a setup, or major prep to 1hko, with it's colossal offensive abilities and excellent coverage it can then dish out so much damage that even the bulkiest struggles to survive for more than 2 hits. 1 thing I would say that might keep it in ou, is that when kanga is not mega, it is very weak in ou, this results in stopping people from utilising other megas. On the wole though I do think it should be moved to uber where it is already used consistently to great effect.

 

[DonVGC]

I agree with the ban of Kangaskhanite. First post of the 3rd page summarized everything correctly.

 

[Uvood]

I use Mega-Kanga, have since the start of the meta-game in October. Have only played Pokébank OU - as that will be the main tier in the long run - and I don't think am a bad player (sit between 1800-1850 on the ladder atm), but I am still undecided about a ban. There is obviously a slight bias, as it has done very well in my team, as anything like it would, but in the same breath, it is difficult to straight bring it in, before or after it has mega'd.

The set I run, incidentally is:
Wasted Angel (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 68 HP / 188 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch
- Power-Up Punch

That speed puts me one above fully invested Breloom, so can take it out before Spore shenanigans. Fire Punch solves the issue of Skarm+Ferro, tho coming down to 41.66% health from Iron Bards+Rocky Helmet is no fun, even if it does take it out with the second hit.

It is rare to see Power-Up-Punch used/to use Power-Up-Punch, just because in the land of Gen 6, priority is king, and the majority that outspeeds Kanga can take it well, then priority move to finish it off. For example, I run Conkeldurr - mainly because Blissey got irritating, and a Stealth-Rocker as is generally standard, and between the two I can tend to take it out without sacking anything (Drain Punch has a decent chance to OHKO Kanga after rocks, and Return with 252+ Parental Bond doesn't KO, and has a 6%~ to after Rocks). I do understand one counter =/= no ban, I'm just saying how my counter works. I get that this is screwed by a boost to Kanga - I run Chandelure to absorb, then obvious Sucker Punch or switch as everyone running Chandelure should have a Scarf on it; either way, safe switch to Conkelderp. Then again, from this working, I assume many aren't running Crunch in Pokébank, otherwise that's the obvious go to move, as most should be sure they can take a hit from Chandy.

However, the more I read, the more I am inclined to think it doesn't belong in OU. I had issues beforehand with other Kangas, but still managed to beat it well enough, usually with good prediction and the fact everyone should have a Rotom-W in their team - that Willo <3 - and I have less issues with it nowadays, but people seem to be doing worse than I am with it. If it goes, it'll be hard to replace, but that's my issue, not Smogon's. Suppose tis a case of just seeing how the vote goes.

I will leave with one point: those saying Rocky Helmet Ferro/Garchomp are new, are you sure? I saw them all over last gen, more so on Ferro, less on Garchomp, but they were all over. But that is irrelevant.

Reason why people bring up Rocky Helmet is that the item is generally bad. Ferrothorn becomes annoying because with Leech seed and leftovers, it can suddenly be back at full hp, despite being just hit by a hp fire. There are practically no defensive pokes that would forego Leftovers recovery, because it is so crucial due to all the passive damage and the amount of switches you'll end up having to do. Higher up in the ranks, no one used Rocky helmet on Ferrothorns and Skarms, Leftovers just outclasses it, and the only reason it has become so common is because Mega Kanga is a thing. Heck, even with Mega Kanga, I run leftovers on these, because it's much better overall if I'm not running into a mega Kanga. And Rocky Helmet don't really stop Kanga anyway, he takes a bunch of damage, but your wall is now dead, and your team is now gonna get destroyed by his second sweeper, now that your physical wall is gone.

 

[RandysRage]

Mega-Kangaskhan does not belong in OU. At all. Yes, there are counters and checks to it like every other Pokemon, but even those will fall if Kanga is running the right set (Ghosts fall to Crunch/Sucker Punch, Rocks/Steels lose to Power-Up Punch, and everything else falls to +2 Return). This thing is too damned strong to be in anything but Ubers, and God help us all when this thing gets Fire Punch.

 

[Deiko240]

i aggre ban to kangaskhanite, to for some post here (maybe 3 o 6 page )

 

[bwburke94]

Our goal is to have a diverse metagame.
Our goal is not to have every team have Kangaskhan, 2 Kangaskhan counters, and 3 counters of Kangaskhan counters.
Ergo, I think Kangaskhanite should be banned from OU.

Banning M-Kanga frees up the mega evolution spot for other megas, making the metagame more diverse.

 

[lookbehindukid]

Um. Mega kangaskhan is counter by anything with ironbarbs/roughskin and rocky helmat. Kangaskhan is also wrecked by anything that outspeeds or takes a sucked punch well

 

[KztxL7]

Um. Mega kangaskhan is counter by anything with ironbarbs/roughskin and rocky helmat. Kangaskhan is also wrecked by anything that outspeeds or takes a sucked punch well

Throwing something to die at the hands of Mega Khan is not a counter and it has been repeatedly stated about the existence of Earthquake.

I would also love to know what can switch into a MKhan with +2 Atk and can then take the inevitable Sucker Punch and live.

 

[Uvood]

Um. Mega kangaskhan is counter by anything with ironbarbs/roughskin and rocky helmat. Kangaskhan is also wrecked by anything that outspeeds or takes a sucked punch well

Read the thread plz, it's already been discussed to death. Iron Barbs and Rough skin don't stop Kanga, it loses some hp, but it's not killing it. It kills your wall, then you either have a revenge killer ready or lose, or the revenge killer kills Kangaskahn and you're swpet by his second sweeper, since your physical Rocky Helmet wall is now dead and can't counter the next one.

 

[escarlata]

I looked at anti-ban posts being thrown around and I'm just going to save my time writing a long post like what I did in the Gengarite post.

+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 325-384 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is funny because EK Arceus can decimate teams in Ubers, and Ubers is obviously bulkier than OU, that's for sure. As one of the top sweepers in Ubers, EK Arceus barely only has slightly more damage on its STAB attack compared to MK's unSTABed attack. Now remember MK's Return is almost twice as powerful as its Sucker Punch. While we are at that, people are saying MK is checked by Sableye, Cofagrigus, fast Fighting types, prankster T-waves, physically defensive Pokemons with Rugged Helm. Those sound like good checks to Arceus as well, but people choose to unanimously believe Arceus deserve a ban and MK doesn't. Obviously it is not suitable for OU.


For other common arguments against MK being is Ubers because you can revenge kill it.
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 338-398 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Infernape's STAB Close Combat cannot even guarantee a OHKO on 0/0 MK. In other words, anything below 104 base Atk without an attack of 120 * 2 * 1.5 = 360BP cannot ensure OHKO-ing a Kanghaskhan. Not to mention Fighting is no longer that common this Gen either, and being forced to run one simply to counter MK is quite terrible.

On a side note, I made a team of MKhan/Chatot/Luvdisc/Murkrow/Raichu/Persian just for luls, and managed to reach ~16xx on the ladder with it. And smart players can probably guess that those wins were obviously not because of Chatot/Luvdisc/Murkrow/Raichu/Persian sweeping.

Bottom line is: glhf

 

[Jonathan St-Yves]

Should we ban a Pokemon with 105/100/100 defenses, 60 BP Swords dance, 187 Base attack, a Dark priority move, 2 coverage moves, 1 weakness and 100 speed?

My experience versus Kangaskhan is that it's unwallable, outspeeds revenge killers and OHKO most stuff at +2. At any point in the game, he most often means an automatic 2 for 1 at least. If your check is are dead, he sweeps.

In order for Mega Khan to be manageable (compared to other Megas), you need to run very specific counters. He is over centralizing.

 

[Ningildo]

Lol this went to 28 pages...in a day. Lol.

But in all seriousness, MKanga is bull. I could mention its great bulk for a sweeper, ridiculous power due Parental Bond (A CB that also breaks Sash, Sturdy and whatnot), it's great coverage, lack of viable counters (there's Sableye and...Cofagrigus? And...oh, end list) and checks (who can never switch in...and are about 5). I then remember, however, that this has already been mentioned 200 times in the first ten pages of this thread. Gengarite tiering discussion thread v2.

Ban this thing so I can actually think about my moves when I battle.

Petition to allow bans on users who use the average ladderer use of a pokemon as an argument in these threads.

 

[RandysRage]

Um. Mega kangaskhan is counter by anything with ironbarbs/roughskin and rocky helmat. Kangaskhan is also wrecked by anything that outspeeds or takes a sucked punch well

Those aren't counters at all, they're gimmicks to barely hurt it while they still die from a +2 Return or Earthquake. Sucker Punch is for anything it can't outspeed and if that doesn't work, they'll simply KO it with Return/Crunch/Earthquake. Just ban this thing already and be done with it.

 

[Dragontamer]

Um. Mega kangaskhan is counter by anything with ironbarbs/roughskin and rocky helmat. Kangaskhan is also wrecked by anything that outspeeds or takes a sucked punch well

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 210-252 (59.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes, Jolly Kangaskhan can just run Fire Blast and KO Ferrothorn after PuP damage.

 

[TheMohZone]

Ok, I did not plan on adding my opinion but I guess I should. First off, I feel that sometimes we come to the conclusion too quickly. When something is challenging to take out or gives us some trouble, people tend to do this. "OMG SOOO BROKEN. GAMFREAK Y U DO DIS. GG NO RE." Therefore, I would like to start off by saying that I believe Kangaskhan Should STAY OU. Take the Blaziken ban into consideration, I am not a huge fan of banning things like these but I do understand why Blaziken would be banned. It was a major threat and was hard to contain but Talonflame can easily take him out. Other than that, it was hard to do. Kangaskhan on the other hand, is not as troublesome to deal with. Yes, the ability is annoying but the objective is to take it out early, not after it buffs the crap out of itself. Conkeldurr has a guaranteed 2hko with it and can live with Drain Punch as well as resisting Sucker Punch. In addition, Breloom is another pokemon that can take care of it without an issue. So, what I am saying is that other insanely common pokemon can take it out. Well that is my opinion and I am sure I piss people of with this but eh, my thoughts on the subject.

Yes Conkeldurr Can 2HKO a 0/0 Kang (I believe standard is 252/0 though) but it still no good

hypothetical Scenario

Kang gets in

Cok switches in
Kang Megas and PuP

Mach Punch
Kang Vapourises Conk with Return.

plus if Its coming in on Return, Kang takes NOTHING. its not gonna get a Drain punch off without getting blown off the face of the Earth. and Conk is BULKY. do you wanna see whats left of that Breloom. its some sort of Mushroom soup. Neither are exactly common and they won't stop a sweep or a set up or anything. your arguement is very flawed.

I looked at anti-ban posts being thrown around and I'm just going to save my time writing a long post like what I did in the Gengarite post.

+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 325-384 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is funny because EK Arceus can decimate teams in Ubers, and Ubers is obviously bulkier than OU, that's for sure. As one of the top sweepers in Ubers, EK Arceus barely only has slightly more damage on its STAB attack compared to MK's unSTABed attack. Now remember MK's Return is almost twice as powerful as its Sucker Punch. While we are at that, people are saying MK is checked by Sableye, Cofagrigus, fast Fighting types, prankster T-waves, physically defensive Pokemons with Rugged Helm. Those sound like good checks to Arceus as well, but people choose to unanimously believe Arceus deserve a ban and MK doesn't. Obviously it is not suitable for OU.


For other common arguments against MK being is Ubers because you can revenge kill it.
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 338-398 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Infernape's STAB Close Combat cannot even guarantee a OHKO on 0/0 MK. In other words, anything below 104 base Atk without an attack of 120 * 2 * 1.5 = 360BP cannot ensure OHKO-ing a Kanghaskhan. Not to mention Fighting is no longer that common this Gen either, and being forced to run one simply to counter MK is quite terrible.

On a side note, I made a team of MKhan/Chatot/Luvdisc/Murkrow/Raichu/Persian just for luls, and managed to reach ~16xx on the ladder with it. And smart players can probably guess that those wins were obviously not because of Chatot/Luvdisc/Murkrow/Raichu/Persian sweeping.

Bottom line is: glhf

This

Lol this went to 28 pages...in a day. Lol.

But in all seriousness, MKanga is bull. I could mention its great bulk for a sweeper, ridiculous power due Parental Bond (A CB that also breaks Sash, Sturdy and whatnot), it's great coverage, lack of viable counters (there's Sableye and...Cofagrigus? And...oh, end list) and checks (who can never switch in...and are about 5). I then remember, however, that this has already been mentioned 200 times in the first ten pages of this thread. Gengarite tiering discussion thread v2.

Ban this thing so I can actually think about my moves when I battle.

Petition to allow bans on users who use the average ladderer use of a pokemon as an argument in these threads.

and this

Petition to allow bans on users who use the average ladderer use of a pokemon as an argument in these threads.

especially this.

 

[kefkakrazy]

On a side note, I made a team of MKhan/Chatot/Luvdisc/Murkrow/Raichu/Persian just for luls, and managed to reach ~16xx on the ladder with it. And smart players can probably guess that those wins were obviously not because of Chatot/Luvdisc/Murkrow/Raichu/Persian sweeping.

Hey, now. Persian and Murkrow can cause some damage with SwagPlay cheese, and Chatot has the most powerful Boomburst in the game right now.

Just sayin'.

 

[flamewizzy21]

Not necessarily. If a Mega pokemon is worth, say, 1.2 times that, that just increases the power of the average team by 0.2. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, all it does is force everyone to use their Mega slot which given the number of Mega pokemon isn't necessarily a disaster. I guess the question becomes whether making everyone use their mega slot is bad policy, and whether Mega Kanga is strong enough even for that slot that it'll dominate it.



What would that actually DO to the metagame, anyway? Would it ruin it in some way?

The thing is, I should not NEED to have a Mega pokemon to be able to compete fairly with a team that DOES have Mega Pokemon. Like if I have a team that doesn't use any Mega Pokemon, but everyone else is using a mega, I either need to accept the disadvantage (if a Mega is worth significantly more than 1 regular poke) or I'm forced to change my team to include a mega.

If you think about it, most (=/= all) mega evolutions have some clearly exploitable weakness that you can counterplay around without a dedicated counter. e.g. Mawile and Ampharos are very easily out-sped, Absol is the glassiest of glass cannons, Blastoise and Venusaur are still bulky menaces without such crazy offensive presence.

Just a quick thought. Would it be to crippling to Khan to simply ban PuP on him specifically when he is mega evolved, or would he still be to strong even without it? Sorry if it has already had been mentioned ahead of time.

Smogon has said time and time again that they will never make a 'complex ban' like banning a single move from a single pokemon.

 

[ExperimentOne]

Um. Mega kangaskhan is counter by anything with ironbarbs/roughskin and rocky helmat. Kangaskhan is also wrecked by anything that outspeeds or takes a sucked punch well

Translation: i have not bothered to read a single page of discussion and come here with a simplistic answer that 1000 people could not have POSSIBLY thought of. Just... Please.. Shoo

 

[Edgar81539]

We're just going in circles. If you thought Mengar discussion was one-sided, I would love to see a poll on this one. ALMOST EVERY COMPETITIVE PLAYER WANTS THIS THING BANNED. I'm not going to lie, right now I'm using MegaKanga in Showdown, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a broken pokemon when I see it.

And people, please, stop calling counters thing that clearly aren't. A counter is a pokemon that can reliably switch in and threaten or force out a pokemon. Right now, the only things that can do it are Sableye and Eviolite Dusclops. Period. Checking MegaKanga is easier, but also hard as hell. Unless you have a scarfed Fighting-Type, a MegaLucario or a mon that can take a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO back, you're going to get trough a world of suffering.

MegaKanga isn't only strong. It's bulky, versatile, fast and stupidly easy to use. There's ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why you shouldn't be running MegaKanga right now.

EVEN GODAMN BOLD LUGIA WITH MULTISCALE CANNOT DO SHIT AGAINST KANGA.

 

[Thorhammer]

Yeah a poll would be interesting to see. Last time, it was evenly split and didn't represent the ultimate decision, but if Kangaskhan gets considerably even more "ban" votes than a Pokemon that was already quickbanned (and this is the outcome I'd expect), it could say something about how much longer we need this discussion to go on for.

 

[TheDeathJester]

I have had success dealing with mega kangaskhan who lack crunch with air balloon aegislash.