Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Fuzznip]

I think it's time to reveal yet another underrated and forgotten Pokemon who shines in this metagame: Krookodile.

Dark is now one of the best offensive and even defensive typings right now, as the buff to Knock Off, the fact that Steel no longer resists Dark, and Dark resisting itself and Ghost, make it very powerful. Krookodile has two excellent abilities that allow it to effectively fulfill an offensive or defensive role.

For me, I've been using Krookodile defensively on a stall team I made with Plus, and it's been a very important member. With Intimidate and its workable defensive spread of 95 HP/80 Def/70 SpD, it's actually really bulky on the physical side, to the surprise of many people. For comparison sake:

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 102-121 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 118-141 (28 - 33.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Intimidate itself is just one of the best abilities in the game right now, easily hindering the slew of scary physical sweepers from causing too much harm, and it's the only Intimidate Pokemon that can actually beat Bisharp. Furthermore, I'd consider it to be on par with Mandibuzz when it comes to countering all variants of Aegislash (even ones with Head Smash!). Krookodile is also very fast as a defensive supporter, making it a potent stallbreaker at the same time with Taunt + Knock Off. It also has access to Stealth Rock, Toxic, and Dragon Tail, depending on what your team prefers. I've been running Stealth Rock/Taunt/Knock Off/Earthquake and it works like a charm. The only unfortunate thing about Krookodile is its lack of reliable recovery, as you're limited to Leftovers recovery or running some kind of RestTalk set with Dragon Tail and Knock Off, but this doesn't really matter. It forces switches like mad, doesn't take much of a beating from the things it's switched into, has a sweet defensive typing, and arguably one of the most overpowered moves in the game in Knock Off.

Looking at the other side of Krookodile, you'll notice that it's a very formidable offensive Pokemon. Base 117 Attack is nothing to scoff at, not even accounting for Krookodile's Moxie ability, and its base 92 Speed is pretty decent (outpaces Landorus-T). Switch Krookodile in against a weakened target or that's Dark weak and you'll essentially be guaranteed a Moxie boost with Pursuit. STAB Dark/Ground is stellar coverage on its own as well, only being resisted by Hydreigon, Togekiss, Chesnaught, Breloom, and Mandibuzz I think. Using Stone Edge as coverage allows Krookodile to bypass Togekiss and Mandibuzz and hits Hydreigon neutrally. Although it's walled by Chesnaught and Breloom, the former is kind of underused and the latter can't switch into a boosted Knock Off or Earthquake. Breloom also sucks now so whatever.

For these reasons, I am nominating Krookodile for B rank.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

This will probably be lost within the stream of posts and Im not looking for wherever else this was proposed, but how in the world did Chansey move up to A-Rank? I know you pretty much c/ped Ojama's list but I didn't see a reason why it should be so high and he really didnt give a reason. It has a lot of problems (compounded with last gen's problems) that seem to make it a bit undesirable in many cases.

• Knock Off is literally everywhere and makes Chansey almost useless and much easier to defeat.
• It loses to Nasty Plot Lucario, Genesects that use U-Turn a lot, and Sacred Sword Aegislash, making it not that amazing of special wall.
• It is still set-up fodder to a lot of dangerous Pokemon and cannot do very much direct damage. Now Bisharp and Mega Mawile can literally just Swords Dance all over one with Toxic, and even ones with Thunder Wave are still pretty free to get Knock Offed and Sucker Punch ignores this. This can happen against other Pokemon too, but these are the newer ones.
• There are still a ton of relevant Fighting-types in the metagame, including Keldeo and Terrakion, but now there's also more Lucarios and Conkeldurrs that last generation, as well as a newfound Mega Medicham and others. They are a bit easier to deal with than before but they all still threaten Chansey.
• Physical Attackers are much more prevalent compared to special attackers, making a special wall with such a bland typing not as important.

To be honest I can't really think of much it can defeat other than Greninja or the Latis out of S-Rank or A-Rank. It may wall Ghost-types, which is a better typing than last gen, but many of the best Ghost-types don't have a very hard time against it due to an immunity to Toxic. Chansey also has some major 4MSS that allows the Toxic and Thunder Wave scenario to be a guarantee oftentimes. It really seems like a mediocre choice in many situations and I dont see Chansey above B or B- Rank unless I am missing something major.

 

[sonnytapman]

Anyways, I want to nominate Hydregion for B. He has very Good coverage in his Move pool and a solid 92/90/90 set of defenses. His biggest problem is the Fairy type, as they are a serious counter to the Hydra. other than that set back, Very good Special attacker.

 

[DaiGuren]

Sorry for the lateness. This is a reply to my post claiming Gengar is S-rank.


Yes, it is true that Gengar is laughably frail, but he's been laughably frail for 6 generations, and he's also been an OU staple for 6 generations. It's not what Pokemon can do to Gengar, it's what Gengar's presence does to team building and the entire battle. Well all know any speedy fire-type or hard-hitting Fighting type can beat Genesect for a OHKO, but we all know that the ability to beat it even with a flame charge is not why it became banished.

Gengar has the ability to have a moveset that is hard-hitting and one that has absolutely perfect coverage at the same time, with his STAB moves hitting most of the tier with at least neutral damage, and the Pokemon he does not hit, he hits most of them for 4x SE damage with Focus Blast. What's also interesting is unlike the other SpA specialists that you name that has to round out their movesets with a nerfed Hidden Power, while Gengar has Focus Blast. It is also important to note that you are comparing Specs to Life Orb/Leftovers Gengar, and a move like Draco Meteor, which hits harder than anything Gengar dishes out, but hampers it totally.

Let me bring you an old Gengar set from Gen V.

Sub + 3 attacks

Gengar @ Life Orb/Leftovers
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Fire
=> Timid Offensive EVs

This particular set features the Shadowblast combo. Hidden Power Fire was to specifically deal SE dmg to Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, etc. Now with the Steel resistance gone to Shadow Ball, it opens up a lot. Jirachi, Metagross, Scizor and Bronzong gets totally decked by STAB Shadow Ball, even their specially defensive variants. Skarmory is 2HKO'd before it can get off a SR, and might get taunted anyway, which brings me to Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is 3HKO'd by Gengar's Shadow Ball. Why not just use Focus Blast? Well that's the thing, it doesn't need it to do away with Ferrothorn, because to do so, all you have to do is Taunt/Disable it.

Gengar @ Life Orb/Leftovers
- Substitue
- Disable/Taunt/Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast

Now, all you have to do is Taunt Ferrothorn and do your thing. You can still take Ferrothorn out with Focus Blast if you choose to use it, and it will most-likely be okay because most Ferrothorn do not lead with Gyro Ball, and even if it did, You can put up a Substitute or Disable it. And the one Pokemon that ultimately makes Ferro a non-factor is Choice Scarf, Magnet Pull Magnezone, who can come in on a taunted Ferro and have fun (Scizor suffers this same fate). I have to use Genesect as a reference again because its U-turn is functioning like Gengar's Substitute or even its Taunt as far as scouting. The only Pokemon that can trap Gengar gets hit by Shadow Ball for SE, since Arena Trap Dugtrio cannot trap it because of Levitate. What's even more interesting is Genesect can actually be trapped by both MagPull and A-Trap if it doesn't use U-turn, while Gengar cannot.

I bring this up because Gengar's poison-typing was mostly a liability, and it's Levitate ability REALLY helped it against ground type attacks, and it's been A-rank forever. It's always had perfect coverage against Psychic and Ghost (Shadow Ball), and against Dark types that resist it and Normal types that are immune to it (Focus Blast). The fact that it can now use Sludge Bomb an as offensive type that hits two types Super Effectively and don't have to worry about wearing Sludge Bomb and being walled by a Steel Type helps it greatly and I have no idea why this doesn't make it rank higher since it effectively became better in almost every conceivable way outside of a change in base stats.

Putting all of this shortly, Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb are both STAB, and it's round out atk is a 120 BP Focus Blast, not a 60 BP HP Fighting (or HP Grass for Keldeo in the comparison of the above quote)..

This is a list of Pokemon who as of Gen VI resist both of Gengar's STABs.

View attachment 6476

As you see, any Pokemon that poses any offensive threat to Gengar (which is not hard btw), can be 2x-4x SE'd by Focus Blast, or be scouted with a Substitute, or both. For any support Pokemon in that list, they're easily Sub-taunted and/or hit hard by Focus Blast if they decide to switch in.

Edit: Also, to note, Azumarill's Huge Power ability doesn't work like that. If Azumarill invested all of its EVs into attack and was adamant, it's attack would be even higher than Brave Conkeldurr's at the start of battle.

I understand that Gengar can do a lot, but you haven't answered my question. What does Gengar has that Keldeo, ZardY, or any other mon belonging to the same category(special nuke) doesn't have that can put it above the rest?

Because as it stands, there are no special nukers that are in S rank, except for maybe Genesect but you and I both know that Genesect's nuking prowess is not the thing that got it to S rank.

ZardY melts all other SR setter(even Tyranitar, if it comes in at a wrong time) as well as the majority of the OU tier bar Lati@s, Goodra and the two blobs. Sorry if I can only use ZardY as comparison, since he's the only special nuker that I've used a lot. Gengar is faster than ZardY, yes but ZardY has passable bulk on the special side so that's mostly a moot point. Also,

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 161-191 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 297-351 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just a demonstration in terms of raw power. ZardY clearly has the advantage in terms of raw power, as well as in bulk. Gengar only has speed and disable, maybe destiny bond. What else does Gengar have that will put it on top of ZardY?

 

[megacrazyhand]

Anyways, I want to nominate Hydregion for B. He has very Good coverage in his Move pool and a solid 92/90/90 set of defenses. His biggest problem is the Fairy type, as they are a serious counter to the Hydra. other than that set back, Very good Special attacker.

I'm going to say that I support this nomination with an anecdotal story. A little while ago at my school we had a tournament that I wound up winning in part because no one expected Hydreigon. Because of team preview you can keep track of if your opponent has any fairy types, who they are and if they're down yet. His fireblast also makes Modest Hydreigon a decent check for Klefki if Klefki doesn't run dazzling gleam (in my experience they don't and eventually hax will end and fire blast will tear Klefki apart). As for other Fairies, Mawile is the only one I can really think of him hitting hard (either fire blast or earth power).

So I'm going to make a slightly different argument: Hydreigon should be C rank. The qualification of C rank is that the Pokemon can do its job but requires proper support either because of crippling flaws or other Pokemon outclassing him. In Hydreigon's case, he has a crippling flaw (fairy types prevent him from spamming STAB Draco Meteor) but if an opponent's Fairy type(s) is/are removed he can take down at least one other Pokemon.

As such, while I support Hydreigon for B rank I'd also like to nominate him for C rank.

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

Snip
For these reasons, I am nominating Krookodile for B rank.

I'm actually interested in how he fairs now with the boost to knock off and recent offensive pressure. Intimidate is a great ability to have as well, allowing him to live a Sacred sword from Aegislash with no defensive EV's needed, then KO back with a EQ/Knock Off. 92 Speed allows him to outspeed the crowded 80 speed tier pokemon in OU, and can outpace and destroy Excadrill with super power, as well as OHKO Tyranitar. So I guess I agree with the B rank. I'm only judging based off stats/calcs/moves, but would love to see some replays of him in action!

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Because as it stands, there are no special nukers that are in S rank, except for maybe Genesect but you and I both know that Genesect's nuking prowess is not the thing that got it to S rank.

Can we not perpetuate the idea that Aegislash is primarily a Physical Attacker any further please? I get hit with a wave of frustration every time someone mentions the SD Aegislash set like it's the only set out there. It's not even good.

 

[sonnytapman]

I would like to nominate Arcanine for B. He's a bulky physical sweeper and has access to healing. However, the defenses are the main drawback. At a only passable 80/80, he can easily be beaten. Close Combat exentuates that issue, despite adding great coverage. A solid B indeed.

 

[Slayerblade]

I would like to nominate Arcanine for B. He's a bulky physical sweeper and has access to healing. However, the defenses are the main drawback. At a only passable 80/80, he can easily be beaten. Close Combat exentuates that issue, despite adding great coverage. A solid B indeed.

There is 0 reason to use Arcanine over the other fire types in OU. Talonflame, Infernape and Volcarona are better on the offensive side and Heatran is vastly superior on the defensive side.

 

[SansNickel]

This will probably be lost within the stream of posts and Im not looking for wherever else this was proposed, but how in the world did Chansey move up to A-Rank? I know you pretty much c/ped Ojama's list but I didn't see a reason why it should be so high and he really didnt give a reason. It has a lot of problems (compounded with last gen's problems) that seem to make it a bit undesirable in many cases.

• Knock Off is literally everywhere and makes Chansey almost useless and much easier to defeat.
• It loses to Nasty Plot Lucario, Genesects that use U-Turn a lot, and Sacred Sword Aegislash, making it not that amazing of special wall.
• It is still set-up fodder to a lot of dangerous Pokemon and cannot do very much direct damage. Now Bisharp and Mega Mawile can literally just Swords Dance all over one with Toxic, and even ones with Thunder Wave are still pretty free to get Knock Offed and Sucker Punch ignores this. This can happen against other Pokemon too, but these are the newer ones.
• There are still a ton of relevant Fighting-types in the metagame, including Keldeo and Terrakion, but now there's also more Lucarios and Conkeldurrs that last generation, as well as a newfound Mega Medicham and others. They are a bit easier to deal with than before but they all still threaten Chansey.
• Physical Attackers are much more prevalent compared to special attackers, making a special wall with such a bland typing not as important.

To be honest I can't really think of much it can defeat other than Greninja or the Latis out of S-Rank or A-Rank. It may wall Ghost-types, which is a better typing than last gen, but many of the best Ghost-types don't have a very hard time against it due to an immunity to Toxic. Chansey also has some major 4MSS that allows the Toxic and Thunder Wave scenario to be a guarantee oftentimes. It really seems like a mediocre choice in many situations and I dont see Chansey above B or B- Rank unless I am missing something major.

"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time"

It walls almost every special attacker out there, which is a significant portion of the metagame. It has some flaws as you mentioned, but I'd like to say it's not switching into aegislash, genesect, or lucario (why would it?). It is a supporting pokemon, and yes it does give free turns, but that is in the description.

Perhaps there are many fighting types, and physical attackers, but at the same time Will-o-wisp usage is sky-rocketing, and the metagame still isn't that stable. Chansey still does its job most of the time - wall special attackers and wish pass.

That being said, I do agree it shouldn't be solid A, perhaps A- / B+.

 

[RufflesPro]

I think it's time to reveal yet another underrated and forgotten Pokemon who shines in this metagame: Krookodile.

Dark is now one of the best offensive and even defensive typings right now, as the buff to Knock Off, the fact that Steel no longer resists Dark, and Dark resisting itself and Ghost, make it very powerful. Krookodile has two excellent abilities that allow it to effectively fulfill an offensive or defensive role.

For me, I've been using Krookodile defensively on a stall team I made with Plus, and it's been a very important member. With Intimidate and its workable defensive spread of 95 HP/80 Def/70 SpD, it's actually really bulky on the physical side, to the surprise of many people. For comparison sake:

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 102-121 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 118-141 (28 - 33.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Intimidate itself is just one of the best abilities in the game right now, easily hindering the slew of scary physical sweepers from causing too much harm, and it's the only Intimidate Pokemon that can actually beat Bisharp. Furthermore, I'd consider it to be on par with Mandibuzz when it comes to countering all variants of Aegislash (even ones with Head Smash!). Krookodile is also very fast as a defensive supporter, making it a potent stallbreaker at the same time with Taunt + Knock Off. It also has access to Stealth Rock, Toxic, and Dragon Tail, depending on what your team prefers. I've been running Stealth Rock/Taunt/Knock Off/Earthquake and it works like a charm. The only unfortunate thing about Krookodile is its lack of reliable recovery, as you're limited to Leftovers recovery or running some kind of RestTalk set with Dragon Tail and Knock Off, but this doesn't really matter. It forces switches like mad, doesn't take much of a beating from the things it's switched into, has a sweet defensive typing, and arguably one of the most overpowered moves in the game in Knock Off.

Looking at the other side of Krookodile, you'll notice that it's a very formidable offensive Pokemon. Base 117 Attack is nothing to scoff at, not even accounting for Krookodile's Moxie ability, and its base 92 Speed is pretty decent (outpaces Landorus-T). Switch Krookodile in against a weakened target or that's Dark weak and you'll essentially be guaranteed a Moxie boost with Pursuit. STAB Dark/Ground is stellar coverage on its own as well, only being resisted by Hydreigon, Togekiss, Chesnaught, Breloom, and Mandibuzz I think. Using Stone Edge as coverage allows Krookodile to bypass Togekiss and Mandibuzz and hits Hydreigon neutrally. Although it's walled by Chesnaught and Breloom, the former is kind of underused and the latter can't switch into a boosted Knock Off or Earthquake. Breloom also sucks now so whatever.

For these reasons, I am nominating Krookodile for B rank.

I have to agree with this, I have used Krookodile in-game, and let me tell you this, Scarf Moxie not only caught many people off guard, but once I ensure his Levitater/Flying pokemon is off the field, that thing is a great late-game sweeper, with Moxie + Crunch/EQ/Stone Edge, it is doing a lot, I have run a gimmicky Dragon Claw on it, and what I did is outsped Choice Banded Flygon, Life Orb Garchomp, and Lum berry (DD set) Salamence, I killed Flygon because it was about 50%, and then outsped (Scarfed) Salamence and Garchomp and OHKO-ed them w/ Dragon Claw, this thing is amazing, B- is as low as it gets IMO.

 

[Hidious]

Not completly true. Morning sun is something other OU Fire types can't say they have. The self sustaining aspect is something unique to the Legendary pokemon.

Volcarona, talonflame, and charizard have roost so that morning sun isn't really special. Arcanine is completely outclassed as an offensive or defensive fire type in OU. It can't sweep, break walls, check threats, or support your team as well as any of the other OU fire types who specialize in those respective roles

 

[DaiGuren]

Can we not perpetuate the idea that Aegislash is primarily a Physical Attacker any further please? I get hit with a wave of frustration every time someone mentions the SD Aegislash set like it's the only set out there. It's not even good.

Right mb. Haven't read the last three pages yet before i posted.

But I didn't mention any SD set though, I was thinking along the lines of Aegislash as a mixed wallbreaker, so basically it's not a contest when you compare Aegislash to say, Keldeo or Gengar.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

It walls almost every special attacker out there, which is a significant portion of the metagame. It has some flaws as you mentioned, but I'd like to say it's not switching into aegislash, genesect, or lucario (why would it?). It is a supporting pokemon, and yes it does give free turns, but that is in the description.

That pretty much describes the Chansey that was ranked as a C+ or B- (idr) last generation. I want to know what has changed at all to make it more singificant. Absolutely failing to deal with the three most dangerous special attackers in the tier is a very big problem for a theoretical catch-all special wall.

Thinking about the other good special attackers in OU you got Latios, who uses Psyshock or Trick, Latias, who also uses Psyshock, Landorus who 2HKOs it with Focus Blast, Manaphy who kinda sets up on Chansey, Greninja who isn't the hardest thing around to counter, Heatran who is rarely that offensive, Rotom-W who will use Trick of just Volt Switch out to one of the many Pokemon that threatens it, Keldeo has Secret Sword, and Gengar who walls Chansey completely. There are also a LOT more physically offense Pokemon, new and old, and most of the special attackers are equally common and as good as the previous generation.

e: forgot char-y and deo-s but the former has Flare Blitz and the latter has superpower so that is still bad

This is why I fail to see why Chansey is all of a sudden so much better than before. It did the same thing as last generation and the same things and many new threats give it problems. I just wanna know why it deserves so much better when it seems so much worse. I abide by my previous post.

 

[Swampertz]

Nominating Mega Venusaur for A, for a variety of reasons:
Mega Venusaur is also an excellent stop to Sylveon and Mega Gardevoir.

I'd disagree with the second one. Here's a stat comparison of the two:

Stat. Gard. Vena.
Spe. 100 80
SpD. 135 120
SpA. 165 122

Gard With/Without EVs and Calm Mind against the best Venusaur
+1 252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 368-434 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 4+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 246-290 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Venasaur Against Various Gard. With NO CALM MIND
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 182-216 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 218-258 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 182-216 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (What I use)
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 218-258 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 218-258 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 218-258 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In other words, simply for speed MGardevoir beats MVenasaur. Again, more reason of why Mega Gardevoir should be in B+ or even A, as it defeats Gengar:

252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 492-578 (187.7 - 220.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 228-270 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Stronger than Shadow Ball)

All of the following are with 0 SpD and HP EVs:

And the only enormous threat in terms of STAB Super Effective I've seen is S-Ranked Aeiglash, and Mega Lucario and Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch, isn't OHKO'ed by Genesect, is walled by Heatran, higher chance to OHKO Talonflame (25% to 18.8% without Thunderbolt but moves 2nd), is OHKOed by Mega Pinsir, and that's the A+ and S ranks that it will probably lose too, and beats the others.

A-Rank losses: Excadrill, Azumarill (Though if it Belly Drums first MGard wins), MMalwile, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Chansey (As with all Specials)

It also beats ALL B+ Rank pokemon, even the Steel Skarmory.

 

[Hidious]

The fact of morning sun is the perfect setup for sunny teams. Weather isn't nearly as useful this gen, but that doesn't it can't be used.

It (sun) most certainly won't be used so arcanine will get 16.67% more healing and tyranitar switching in screws it over. Arcanine wasn't even used on last gen OU sun teams. What did it get to make it OU worthy this gen? Nothing. In fact, everything else seemed to get better while arcanine stays the same

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Arcanine adds nothing to sun teams other than weakness. You pair fire types with ninetales to nuke shit out, not to tank hits, and arcanine is severly lacking in this department. He doesnt have victini monstrous v-creates, darmanitan sheer force+140 attack combo or charizard dragon dance+tough claws. Theres no reason to rank it in this tier ever.

 

[Josh Morales]

The fact of morning sun is the perfect setup for sunny teams. Weather isn't nearly as useful this gen, but that doesn't it can't be used.

Morning Sun, Moonlight, and Synthesis are always recognized as inferior to recovery or roost because of their unreliability, since most weather conditions make you heal fuck all and only one improves your recovery.

 

[Vileman]

Its pretty hard tp get an idea in here if your postisnt a tl; dr jeez...
No mega aggron atm, its an amazing poke who can take physical attacks with ease and be a threatening sweeper/tank with the monoattacker set, automize(or rock polish was it?) or just an all-out attacker. B at minimum in my opinion.
Also, i once again would like to say that kyurem black is a strong bitch with no safe switch ins at all with coverage moves like ice beam, earth power, fusion bolt, and hp ice ( not even mentioning outrage) these moves+ his ability lets hurt everything, and in a metagame filled with defog users, sr isnt as much of a problem as it was last gen. (it even gets roost, mix that his his good bulk and you notice that its not easy to kill)Move it up to A+ pls

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

The only thing Arcanine has going for it is Intimidate, and while the ability itself is great, its usage on Arcanine is not, as most physical threats are rock, ground, or dragon types, which Arcanine cannot touch, except for maybe burn them with Will-O, but there's much better burn users than him that can take hits better and/or are faster (E.i. Sableye, RotomW). It simply doesn't add much that other potential team members could in his place.

He was UU last gen, he'll stay UU this gen. And this thread is discussion for OU. If he must get a rating, then C- would be my answer.

 

[SansNickel]

That pretty much describes the Chansey that was ranked as a C+ or B- (idr) last generation. I want to know what has changed at all to make it more singificant. Absolutely failing to deal with the three most dangerous special attackers in the tier is a very big problem for a theoretical catch-all special wall.

Thinking about the other good special attackers in OU you got Latios, who uses Psyshock or Trick, Latias, who also uses Psyshock, Landorus who 2HKOs it with Focus Blast, Manaphy who kinda sets up on Chansey, Greninja who isn't the hardest thing around to counter, Heatran who is rarely that offensive, Rotom-W who will use Trick of just Volt Switch out to one of the many Pokemon that threatens it, Keldeo has Secret Sword, and Gengar who walls Chansey completely. There are also a LOT more physically offense Pokemon, new and old, and most of the special attackers are equally common and as good as the previous generation.

e: forgot char-y and deo-s but the former has Flare Blitz and the latter has superpower so that is still bad

This is why I fail to see why Chansey is all of a sudden so much better than before. It did the same thing as last generation and the same things and many new threats give it problems. I just wanna know why it deserves so much better when it seems so much worse. I abide by my previous post.

True, but trick is kind of a moot point used for all walls / defensive pokemon. That's why generally "worse" support or defensive pokemon make it up higher than they are used, since there are usually less problems with offensive pokemon anyway (who needs defensive typing or bulk when you can outspeed and OHKO? Offensive pokemon can usually get 2-4 attack move types, but pokemon only get one defensive typing). Trick aside, chansey is actually a great switch-in to Rotom-W. Volt switch sure, but that gains momentum against most other pokemon anyway (this is not a fault that should be attributed to chansey). Landorus's 2hko is on average a 3-turn thing, due to accuracy.

As for psyshock, it's not actually that bad.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (32.1 - 37.78%) -- 95.48% chance to 3HKO
Manaphy:
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 331-390 (47.01 - 55.39%) -- 73.44% chance to 2HKO
That's 2 turns of set up + 2 turns to (maybe) kill. Chansey just throws a T-Wave on it and gets in 3-4 seismic tosses.
Also, nobody uses flare blitz on Char-Y.
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 240-283 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Also, chansey really switches into choice-locked genesect. Nothing switches into a u-turn from genesect (or anything) and benefits from it. Again, this is not chansey's problem. Also, depending on the set nothing can safely switch into mega lucario either. There's a reason both of them are S-rank and are likely seeing suspect tests.

The thing is, our so-called "catch-all physical walls" like hippowdon and skarmory are equally threatened by stuff like mega lucario and mixed attackers. I guess that's why defensive pokemon are harder to use, and they are. But really, in terms of a defensive pokemon, it really walls more things and is more general-use than most other pokemon.

The reason I think it's higher up is because burn is everywhere, and status use is higher than ever. Rotom-W is used because nothing can really deal with it, or anti-meta so it is called, and chansey really deals with it extremely well.

I do agree, chansey might not be, at an overview, as seemingly good as other A-rank pokemon, but if it's used correctly it's still an incredible pokemon. It still (arguably) fits the description, which is why I said A- / B+ myself.

Edit: In all, I really think it's because chansey is a defensive pokemon. Stuff like ferrothorn, latias, mandibuzz, goodra, clefable, skarmory, and togekiss are all B+ or higher. They all have some crazy flaws like chansey does, and they're not nearly as common as the other B+ or higher pokemon. It's just hard being a defensive pokemon.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

You guys are all idots. You're ignoring thee fact the Arcanine has CLOSE COMBAT. It can blow through Rcok types and deal decent damage to ground and dragon types. It' also got extreme speed going for it.

Yes, Arcanine gets Close Combat. So does Infernape, who not only boasts higher speed also gets STAB off it. Also, insulting people isn't the best way of convincing people you have a good argument. Arcanine is UU. There's very little going for it that other Fire Types cant do.

 

[Josh Morales]

Yeah Arcanine is a C- at best, period. As what has been stated, there is nothing it can do that any other Fire-type threat in OU can't do and most likely even better.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

In my opinion, Arcanine doesn't even deserve any mention in this thread whatsoever, but if you must rate it, it should never get more than a C-.

 

[NoahStar]

You guys are all idots. You're ignoring thee fact the Arcanine has CLOSE COMBAT. It can blow through Rcok types and deal decent damage to ground and dragon types. It' also got extreme speed going for it.

Who is it going to use CC on? Terrakion? Tyranitar? Terrakion outspeeds and OHKO's with Stone Edge (2HKO's after Intimidate which you would need to switch in and most likely take a Stone Edge to activate) while Tyranitar gets rid of the sun weakening Morning Sun. Meanwhile, you have Infernape, who does the mix sets, special sets, and physical sets better with its dual STAB and higher speed, Darmanitan's sheer force-boosted Flare Blitz, Charizard's excellent Dragon/Fire typing or sun boosted Fire Blasts off of an incredible Sp.Atk stat, and Victuni's nuke-style V Creates. There is absolutely nothing Arcanine can do better than the current OU fire types. That literally is the definition of a C Rank.

Tl;DR Arcanine = C- or D Rank