XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[alphatron]

Slowbro usually holds an assault vest. Also, I don't really think those calcs show much. You're basically saying that the special walls get destroyed by the physical sets and that the physical walls get destroyed by the special set and vice versa. I'd prefer it if you showed how physical walls still got muscled down by the physical set or just couldn't really do anything to it. Same for the special ones. Of course, you have no way of knowing which set lucario is running unless your opponent makes that obvious.

 

[alexwolf]

So, if we already have the reqs for the current ladder we only have to get them for the suspect ladder?

Also, some people are too hasty and only view the negatives of a Pokemon such as Genesect. Yeah, Volt-turning is a bitch to play against, and yeah, having to guess for the whole game unless you pack a counter sucks, but don't forget that Genesect is the best self sufficient priority user in OU that isn't a Mega. We have Talonflame of course, but it easy to deal with if you manage to keep SR up and thus needs team support. Other than that, we have Breloom, Scizor, Azumarill, Lucario, Mamoswine, and Dragonite, but the first three lack the ability to revenge kill some of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Char Y, Mega Char X, and Talonflame, Lucario is outclassed by other physical sweepers for the most part but it's a viable choice, Mamoswine has the same problem with the first three, and Dragonite is also not really self sufficient and is not that effective in revenge killing without a Choice Band, which has its own problems.

So please people, consider both sides of the coin before voting or making up your mind. And just to clarify, atm i haven't really made up my mind about Genesect, it's just unfair to only consider Genesect's negative influence in OU and not its positive.

 

[Red Cat]

I've been waiting for this announcement, it's about time. Here are my opinions on the suspects in question.

• Lucarionite: Mega Lucario has a movepool including Close Combat, Ice Punch, Crunch, Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon, Shadow Ball, and Dark Pulse which can be boosted by either Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, so there are very few hard counters to Mega Lucario and those counters are over-specialized. Also, because it has three powerful priority moves in Extremespeed, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave to go along with its great base 112 speed, just being able to check it is very difficult to do. It should definitely be banned from OU.
• Genesect: Genesect should be banned this generation for the same reason it was banned last generation: its ability to get a free boost to one of its offenses just for switching in. It also gained powerful priority with Extremespeed which does a ton of damage with a choice band and a Download boost. It also gained one of the best boosting moves in the game with Shift Gear which allows Genesect to get to +2 attack and speed in just one turn with a Download boost. The only viable hard counters are Heatran and Rotom-H ( although max defense Rotom-H is 2HKOed by +1 choice band Extremespeed ) and checking it is very hard since it can boost its speed with choice scarf and Shift Gear and it can escape with a powerful U-turn. Because of all of these traits, Genesect is over-centralizing and should be banned from OU.
• Deoxys-S: Lead sets are not as great as they used to be with the return of Excadrill and the buff to Defog, but Deoxys-S can Taunt Defog users and switch out to a more offensive threat to make hazard removal difficult. Its offensive sets are also underrated as it has Psycho Boost, Superpower, Thunderbolt, Fire Punch, and Ice Beam to go along with its incredible speed and respectable offenses which allows it to come in on a free switch and threaten many OU pokemon. That being said, it has flaws like its lack of bulk and ability to use Psycho Boost only once before switching out. I think it should stay OU for now, but after the dust clears with Mega Lucario and Genesect, it may deserve another look.

 

[ColtCababa]

Slowbro usually holds an assault vest.

It loses it's reliable recovery, so no, it usually doesn't.

 

[BKC]

doesn't really need reliable recovery when it has regenerator and assault vest patches up its mediocre sdef, it's a perfectly viable option

 

[G-Von]

Slowbro usually holds an assault vest. Also, I don't really think those calcs show much. You're basically saying that the special walls get destroyed by the physical sets and that the physical walls get destroyed by the special set and vice versa. I'd prefer it if you showed how physical walls still got muscled down by the physical set or just couldn't really do anything to it. Same for the special ones. Of course, you have no way of knowing which set lucario is running unless your opponent makes that obvious.

Slowbro's items used during the first 3 months:

Items
Leftovers 71.154%
Assault Vest 12.383%

And the point of me putting those calcs the way I did was to show that there is no true counter to Mega-Lucario. Like I said, you will have to get lucky and switch your physical into its physical sets and a special wall into its special sets.

 

[Swamp Link]

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Zapdos: 249-293 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 201-237 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Moltres: 296-349 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Moltres: 152-179 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 296-350 (75.3 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 256-302 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 292-344 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 238-280 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 258-304 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 260-306 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

7 fairly good sets in general that completely counter physical and special sets, considering all of these calcs were after a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot. And all of them can carry a move that hurts Lucario quite a bit along with walling it. Not just stall pokes either, with stuff like Bulkyrona and Aegislash. "No true counter" doesn't apply, anyway, if we banned things for not having any true counters Hydreigon and Salamence would have been banned in BW. I'm not saying Lucario shouldn't be banned, but the reason for it is not that it has no counters, so can we move on from that point? 7 hard counters is plenty, considering that all of these pokemon are viable. It's true that many of these pokemon get screwed by hazard support, but that's not always something that can be assumed, even Stealth Rock, anymore, and if that's necessary to get the job done, is it Lucario or the hazard supporter that is broken?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Slowbro is 2hkoed by both sets after a boost and cant ohko back even with fire blast, aegislash can easily be ohkoed with minimal prior damage (leftovers aegislash, which is the only set that will be at full health through the match cant even ko back lol), venusaur and gyarados can only phaze it, while losing absurd amounts of health, zapdos cant ko etc. Oh wait, but you might say that moltres and volcarona are capable of switching in and ko lucario back, but is it just me or is it extremely hilarious that both of them happen to be 4X WEAK to stealth rock, so literally all the lucario player needs to do is keep them on the field and thats it, you lose. No need to pressure them through the match, outpredict the opponent or anything, just keep stealth rock on the field and they are automatically unable to deal with lucario anymore. These are not counters, these are ways to stall your eventual demise, and there arent even that much of them. You cant assume every team is going to have to pack 2 of 7 available checks just to not get immediately destroyed by a single pokemon, specially when none of them are reliable answers. Mega Lucario is too strong, too fast, has too much coverage, can hit on either side of the spectrum, adaptability close combat is only 10 points below explosion wtf, seriously its the most retarded thing in the tier right now, theres absolutely nothing balanced about it. Get rid of this thing.

 

[Red Cat]

Swamp Link, something that is missing in your calcs is what those "counters" can do back to Mega Lucario. I personally use Gyarados as my answer to Mega Lucario, and 252 Atk Adamant Earthquake has only a 50% chance to 0HKO Mega Lucario. More defensive pokemon like Zapdos, Slowbro, and Mega Venusaur don't have enough power to beat a healthy Mega Lucario 1 on 1. So Gyarados is a 50-50 chance to beat Mega Lucario, Aegislash must be completely healthy but could still lose with a Dark Pulse flinch even if it is at 100% health, Moltres and Volcarona are 4x weak to SR and are very specialized counters, and everything else loses to Mega Lucario. Salamence and Hydreigion did not have 112 base speed or priority, so they were much easier to check than Mega Lucario is now. Mega Lucario also has pretty good defensive typing and surprisingly decent bulk which makes it unlike anything we have allowed to remain in OU in the past.

 

[kleine]

Swamp Link, you should read this: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters. Mega Lucario's SR-weak counters (who all happen to be slower than it) can all be worn down by double-switching when SR is up, and SR should be assumed if you want to claim them to be counters, since counters should be able to come in and win even under the "worst case scenario."

+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 296-350 (75.3 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 256-302 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Slowbro cannot switch in on Mega Lucario's boosting move since Slowbro's Fire Blast is also a 2HKO (and may miss whether or not you've invested the absurd number of EVs required to OHKO with Fire Blast). Unless it has already lost a decent chunk of health, Mega Lucario will KO Slowbro before Slowbro has the chance to use Fire Blast a second time. Even if Mega Lucario has lost some health, Dark Pulse can flinch.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 238-280 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 258-304 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 Crunch and Close Combat, used in that order, deal a minimum of 108.7% to a 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur. I emphasize the order in which the moves are executed because using Close Combat first allows Mega Venusaur to KO with Earthquake. So the following scenario results in a dead Mega Venusaur:

-Mega Lucario uses SD as Mega Venusaur switches in
-Mega Lucario uses Crunch, Mega Venusaur uses Earthquake
-Mega Lucario uses Close Combat

I'm assuming the Mega Lucario user is smart enough to make sure something else has taken Sleep Powder. Giving Mega Venusaur some defense investment can prevent the KO from the physical set, but even a 252 HP / 252+ Def Megasaur takes 80.7% minimum.

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 260-306 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If an opposing Aegislash is at near full health, then you should not assume Mega Lucario is gonna use its boosting move. Simply hitting Aegislash-Shield on the switch deals about 40% minimum.

 

[BlackyXD]

I can only speak about lucario since I have not had extensive experience using or facing the others. Overall I think he should be banned. Both the special and physical set are extremely dangerous and require very different checks. Very few mons can switch into safely and even fewer(if any) can ko it back. Also considering the fact that its checks vary depend on weather witch set it is using you are playing luck of the draw if you put on lucario check on your team weather you will be facing the physical or special set since they are both very common. Just my 2 cents

 

[Ajwf]

Damn, that's a stiff task to get 1700 -50.

Obv Luc needs a ban. I mean, there's zero doubt in my mind about that. For the other two, however, I'm a little bit undecided, especially on Deo-S. Should be interesting to see what a metagame WITHOUT these threats is like.

 

[Nysyr]

Some Anti-Ban points for Lucario:

- Its speed before MEvo is slow, and outsped by a fair number of things.
- Its coverage moves are weaker than last gen compared to the LO set, meaning important "ohko after rocks" are no longer.
- Its priority is actually quite weak compared to something like Mega Kanga's Sucker punch.
- Things that beat it 1v1 are more common than people would have you believe.
- It is frail, and has extreme difficulty finding free setup turns against any decently built team and this is huge.

As for Deoxys and Genesect...

Deo-S is niche, and nerfed due to Defog buff. Not much ban worthy about it.

Genesect lost 2 key resistances and gained a lot more counters, and with the shift to more bulk this gen can no longer sweep teams outright.

 

[Ajwf]

I'm going to refute that last point. Teams with dedicated "counters" get run through if they can't outspeed. Again, I've run a check/counter combination the last few months and I still think I'm only 60% vs lucario-m.

It doesn't need coverage moves. The only time to use a coverage move is when the target is resisting both stabs and a coverage move is SE. For a 1/2 resist, a neutral coverage attack is STILL weaker. And Dark pulse is the most infuriating thing to ever happen to that thing. When I'm trying to counter it, I hate how I have to hang my hat on an 80% chance to attack.

Comparing anything to Mega-Khan's sucker punch is rather... Unfair, given the calc'd base 213 attack that had at adamant. The priority is all technically base 80, which puts it up there with espeed users for power on priority. That's not weak.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Not sure if I should be here, but I thought it was relevant to Lucarionite.

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 328-392 (81.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes, it's a x4 Weaknesses, but hear me out here.
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The thing hits harder then Choice Specs Mewtwo, I mean that's pretty damn burly. Granted both are 2HKO's, but I still think the fact that it can do this much damage to a Vest Ttar in the Sand, more then a Legendary Pokemon can do, I can see why people are getting the torches an pitchforks ready. Here's a calc against Blissey for another Pokemon to calc:

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 564-668 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 398-468 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Still hit's harder then a LO Mewtwo at +2, which again, is really damn impressive, impressive to the point where I'm not sure if this thing is healthy for the OU Meta, this is just pure Special Calcs, Mega Luke can go Physical or Special depending on what the player wants, It seems a bit much for OU. Here's Eviolite Chansey Calcs for the heck of it:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 328-387 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 472-556 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is all my view on this, but Mega Lucario's ability to outdamage stuff like Specs Mewtwo is really glaring to me, and the fact that it's able to force it's way past some of the most sturdy Special Walls OU has to offer really makes me believe that Mega Lucario isn't healthy for the metagame. Again, this is only my view on the matter, I very well could've missed an important detail and any responses for or against Lucarionite is welcomed.

 

[Tesung]

Deoxys s: really good, but not broken. It does lush the meta towards ho, but clearing hazards being so much easier makes it manageable. Lo 4 Atks is an amazing set tho, and fucks with a lot of the best checks to the hazards set.

Genesect: borderline. It is probably the best mon in ou, and is just so easy to throw on any team besides stall, as nearly every ho has one, and it works really well on balance teams. However, it has one almost completely counter in heatran (don't give me no hp ground bullshit :p) and is fairly ez to check. There are also not too many things it can u turn on these days. However, it's sheer unpredictability is problematic, you basically have to assume its a scarf, but cb is hard to deal with, and super useful with the pwrfl espeed. And there is ebelt, which is probably it best set IMO besides maybe lo 4 Atks, and both can pretty much fuck up any team without a heatran or blob. I could see this one go either way

Lucario: (people r gonna hate me for this) not broken. It has fucking counters. Stop saying it has no counters cuz it's does. Zapdos is pretty much a counter, especially with heat wave, which ohkoes if it ccs, while zapdos isn't 2hkoed by +2 np Luke. Physically defensive volcarona (it's best set for reasons other than beating lucario) is a counter. Moltres is a counter. Aegislash is a counter. Tentacruel checks it. Av azumarill is a counter. Talonflame, thundurus check it. Scarf genesect checks it. Scarf lando t is a perfect check too. These are just off the top of my head. Point is, there are many ways to beat it for all playstyles, although it is more difficult for stall. Also, it is very frail, so it will have very few chances to set up. Really good, hard to predict, but not broken.

Ps, you may be able to get around a couple of my counters with stupid shit like stone edge or earthquake, but they are still counters, hp ground talonflame beats heatran, doesn't mean it's not a counter.

 

[sidakarya]

- Its speed before MEvo is slow, and outsped by a fair number of things.
- Its coverage moves are weaker than last gen compared to the LO set, meaning important "ohko after rocks" are no longer.

The speed problem before mevolving ignores, that M-Luke has three methods of priority, all of which effectively have 80 BP, and which especially with rocks up can be used to pick off many faster threats. (Of course they're weaker than M-Kang's Sucker Punch too, that was the pinnacle of absurdity in this whole game) And really, Adaptability is really an absurd ability on Lucario, such that more often than not, you do not need coverage. To wit:

• 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The super-effective attack does the same damage as the STAB. Let that sink in. So really, the coverage is bonus if anything to beat very specific things like Aegislash (Dark Pulse) or Gliscor and Zapdos (Ice Punch). Because of how few safe switch-ins there are with STABs alone, it can at will choose its counters.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Whether Luke SHOULD be banned, I have refrained from saying until the suspect test comes, so you'll get my official opinion in a few days.

Whether it WILL be banned, I'm pretty positive it will. Too many bad players have realized they can slap it on and win games without having to look out for that many threats, good players dislike how hard it is to confidently check, and many will vote "yes" just off of that. Even players that use it seem to recognize that Lucario is not an OU pokemon. All the calcs and theory scenarios can't change the public bias, and right now that makes me sad.

Deoxys I didn't even think needed a suspect ban, it does its job amazingly well, but suicide leads don't necessarily break the game.

As for Genesect, I'm going in hoping for a ban. With download, it can hit a lot of things incredibly hard. With a scarf, it outspeeds way too much and you can't exactly just switch in a wall. Its mixed coverage makes it too annoying to approach, and the only reason I think it hasn't already been complained about is that good players don't try to fit it on their team much, and bad players don't know how to use it.

 

[Nysyr]

The speed problem before mevolving ignores, that M-Luke has three methods of priority, all of which effectively have 80 BP, and which especially with rocks up can be used to pick off many faster threats.

Let's see.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 208-248 (64.3 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 125-148 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Seems pretty damn weak to me. Can't even take out a faster variant of Tflame after rocks.

 

[Jukain]

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Zapdos: 249-293 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 201-237 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Moltres: 296-349 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Moltres: 152-179 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 296-350 (75.3 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 256-302 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 292-344 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 238-280 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 258-304 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 260-306 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

7 fairly good sets in general that completely counter physical and special sets, considering all of these calcs were after a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot. And all of them can carry a move that hurts Lucario quite a bit along with walling it. Not just stall pokes either, with stuff like Bulkyrona and Aegislash. "No true counter" doesn't apply, anyway, if we banned things for not having any true counters Hydreigon and Salamence would have been banned in BW. I'm not saying Lucario shouldn't be banned, but the reason for it is not that it has no counters, so can we move on from that point? 7 hard counters is plenty, considering that all of these pokemon are viable. It's true that many of these pokemon get screwed by hazard support, but that's not always something that can be assumed, even Stealth Rock, anymore, and if that's necessary to get the job done, is it Lucario or the hazard supporter that is broken?

These things are poor excuses for things to handle Mega Lucario. Gyarados is raped if SR is up, and can't do shit besides Roar for Mega Lucario to come back in later and destroy its team with Gyarados gone. Slowbro can't OHKO, and Mega Lucario 2HKOes easily, as you've shown. Volcarona, I guess, can handle Mega Lucario somewhat okay, but it can't switch into anything else the entire game and loses basically all of its health to handle Mega Lucario. Mega Venusaur's Earthquake doesn't even come anywhere close to OHKOing Mega Lucario, and you've clearly shown that it's easily 2HKOed by boosted Mega Lucario. You need Roar to even check it decently, which, again, just leaves it to come in later -- temporarily detains it. Aegislash can serve as a check I guess, but I mean, look at those calcs. Aegislash can't have switched in the entire game (a huge loss for you, as it's a powerful offensive threat that can deal some serious damage), which isn't realistic, and if Dark Pulse flinches, it loses completely. Special Mega Lucario I guess can be handled okay by Moltres, but it's too unreliable with SD, as with SR up (it's not going to be away all the time, I tested Moltres enough to guarantee you that) it flat-out loses, and it HAS to be at full health.

Finally, Zapdos...I've played a ton with Zapdos, and it needs specially defensive EVs to be relevant in the meta. What else is physically defensive Zapdos helping you with? At least, specially defensive Zapdos counters NP Mega Lucario. That's something you should highlight. I mean:

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 72-85 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 213-251 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

When you have this, you have a counter to NP. Would you prefer a shaky way to handle both SD and NP or a sure counter to NP? I sure as hell prefer the latter; it's the reason I run Zapdos in the first place.

Outside of Zapdos, defensively handling NP Mega Lucario is almost a joke. SD is a tad easier to handle, but still. There are some offensive checks, but those aren't too complicated to eliminate, and it has priority...

Some Anti-Ban points for Lucario:

- Its speed before MEvo is slow, and outsped by a fair number of things.
- Its coverage moves are weaker than last gen compared to the LO set, meaning important "ohko after rocks" are no longer.
- Its priority is actually quite weak compared to something like Mega Kanga's Sucker punch.
- Things that beat it 1v1 are more common than people would have you believe.
- It is frail, and has extreme difficulty finding free setup turns against any decently built team and this is huge.

As for Deoxys and Genesect...

Deo-S is niche, and nerfed due to Defog buff. Not much ban worthy about it.

Genesect lost 2 key resistances and gained a lot more counters, and with the shift to more bulk this gen can no longer sweep teams outright.

Who cares about pre-MEvo Speed when you get 112 Speed if you click the Mega Evolution box? Its coverage moves are barely weaker, and they don't even matter half the time. It basically only needs its STABs thanks to Adaptability in order to eliminate much of the metagame. Its priority is weaker than a 120 BP priority move, that's obvious. Mega Kangaskhan was banned for a reason. Meanwhile, 40 BP priority moves boosted by Adaptability are powerful. A priority move that does this:

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 228-270 (75.4 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

to Latios is more than strong enough.

When it forces out almost the entire metagame, boosting is easy. Trust me when I say that finding free setup turns is easy as all hell. It's kinda frail, but 70/88/70 isn't horrible (it lives stuff like Zapdos' Heat Wave, for example).

I'd like you to give me a semi-decent list of Pokemon that beat it 1v1.

Lucario: (people r gonna hate me for this) not broken. It has fucking counters. Stop saying it has no counters cuz it's does. Zapdos is pretty much a counter, especially with heat wave, which ohkoes if it ccs, while zapdos isn't 2hkoed by +2 np Luke. Physically defensive volcarona (it's best set for reasons other than beating lucario) is a counter. Moltres is a counter. Aegislash is a counter. Tentacruel checks it. Av azumarill is a counter. Talonflame, thundurus check it. Scarf genesect checks it. Scarf lando t is a perfect check too. These are just off the top of my head. Point is, there are many ways to beat it for all playstyles, although it is more difficult for stall. Also, it is very frail, so it will have very few chances to set up. Really good, hard to predict, but not broken.

I demonstrated how Moltres doesn't counter it. Zapdos can't counter SD. Phys def Volcarona is not a counter, as I demonstrated. Aegislash, too. Sure, a couple Scarfers and Talonflame/Prankster TWave Thundurus are checks. AV Azumarill is an okay way to handle NP, I guess, but:

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 341-402 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Raped by SD.

What are your counters? There are only checks, as they're all raped by the other set (SD or NP).

Mega Lucario demands TWO ways to handle it on every team, as you have to pack a way to handle both NP and SD, unless you're looking to get swept. Sure offense can check it a bit better, but you still need two ways to handle it because if one dies you get screwed. This constricts teambuilding, and Mega Lucario sweeps through almost entire metagame with ease.

 

[Nysyr]

Jukain I don't think you realise that your speed is determined before you MEvo for the turn.

 

[Seven Lions]

Deoxys s: really good, but not broken. It does lush the meta towards ho, but clearing hazards being so much easier makes it manageable. Lo 4 Atks is an amazing set tho, and fucks with a lot of the best checks to the hazards set.

Genesect: borderline. It is probably the best mon in ou, and is just so easy to throw on any team besides stall, as nearly every ho has one, and it works really well on balance teams. However, it has one almost completely counter in heatran (don't give me no hp ground bullshit :p) and is fairly ez to check. There are also not too many things it can u turn on these days. However, it's sheer unpredictability is problematic, you basically have to assume its a scarf, but cb is hard to deal with, and super useful with the pwrfl espeed. And there is ebelt, which is probably it best set IMO besides maybe lo 4 Atks, and both can pretty much fuck up any team without a heatran or blob. I could see this one go either way

Lucario: (people r gonna hate me for this) not broken. It has fucking counters. Stop saying it has no counters cuz it's does. Zapdos is pretty much a counter, especially with heat wave, which ohkoes if it ccs, while zapdos isn't 2hkoed by +2 np Luke. Physically defensive volcarona (it's best set for reasons other than beating lucario) is a counter. Moltres is a counter. Aegislash is a counter. Tentacruel checks it. Av azumarill is a counter. Talonflame, thundurus check it. Scarf genesect checks it. Scarf lando t is a perfect check too. These are just off the top of my head. Point is, there are many ways to beat it for all playstyles, although it is more difficult for stall. Also, it is very frail, so it will have very few chances to set up. Really good, hard to predict, but not broken.

Ps, you may be able to get around a couple of my counters with stupid shit like stone edge or earthquake, but they are still counters, hp ground talonflame beats heatran, doesn't mean it's not a counter.

How is Lucario not broken? It can setup on almost any defensive mon, such as Mandibuzz trying to clear rocks then wreck shit. If rocks are up, GG those checks you just listed. To get one of those "checks" or "counters" in safely, you'll almost surely have to sack something just to get the thing in, all while MLuke can just switch out or have your "check" crippled. At +2, Aegi is no "counter". Dark Pulse flinch fucks it over while doing 85%+ to it so SR + Spikes = No aegi. Rest get screwed with SR.

The sheer power it has is unreal.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Talonflame Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's just to disprove your last point.

0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 125-151 (32.3 - 39.1%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is more like something Talon would run if for some fucking reason someone decides to run HP Ground. So no.


EDIT: Also, the unpredictability of MLuke is dangerous enough. "Hey I got SpD Zapdos so I should have Luke covered right?" Wrong, fucking Physical MLuke +2 mauls your fucking Zapdos.

 

[ryan]

Lucario: (people r gonna hate me for this) not broken. It has fucking counters. Stop saying it has no counters cuz it's does. Zapdos is pretty much a counter, especially with heat wave, which ohkoes if it ccs, while zapdos isn't 2hkoed by +2 np Luke. Physically defensive volcarona (it's best set for reasons other than beating lucario) is a counter. Moltres is a counter. Aegislash is a counter. Tentacruel checks it. Av azumarill is a counter. Talonflame, thundurus check it. Scarf genesect checks it. Scarf lando t is a perfect check too. These are just off the top of my head. Point is, there are many ways to beat it for all playstyles, although it is more difficult for stall. Also, it is very frail, so it will have very few chances to set up. Really good, hard to predict, but not broken.

Physically defensive Volcarona is not a viable Pokemon, and it doesn't stop Mega Lucario from doing its job. +2 Mega Lucario, both special and physical, will KO Volc after Stealth Rock. Same with Moltres. This means that neither of them can switch into Mega Lucario, as it can either attack or set up and kill both of them afterwards. Tentacruel is a terrible check because:

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Aegislash isn't a counter, just a solid check, because it takes nearly 50% from Crunch/Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse. Assault Vest Azumarill sounds terrible, and whether or not it is, it's never used like ever. Plus:

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 341-402 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, not a counter. There are a lot of soft checks to Mega Lucario, but it's really hard to outright counter, especially without knowing which set it's running. SD is horrifying because it can spam Adaptability Close Combat against offensive teams and set up and sweep against defensive teams, and NP is scary because it has coverage that keeps dedicated Fighting resists from owning it.

Also HP Ground Genesect is a thing, albeit a rare one, that's used in order to lure in Heatran, usually for something else like Mega Charizard X or Talonflame to clean up later in the game.

Jukain I don't think you realise that your speed is determined before you MEvo for the turn.

While this wouldn't surprise me, I don't think it's the case. The whole point is that you come in either against something slower (there's still a shitton of mons who are slower than +Speed base 90), something faster that you can pick off with priority, or something you can set up on. It's really not hard at all to get Lucario mega evolved.

 

[Tesung]

How is Lucario not broken? It can setup on almost any defensive mon, such as Mandibuzz trying to clear rocks then wreck shit. If rocks are up, GG those checks you just listed. To get one of those "checks" or "counters" in safely, you'll almost surely have to sack something just to get the thing in, all while MLuke can just switch out or have your "check" crippled. At +2, Aegi is no "counter". Dark Pulse flinch fucks it over while doing 85%+ to it so SR + Spikes = No aegi. Rest get screwed with SR.

The sheer power it has is unreal.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Talonflame Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's just to disprove your last point.

0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 125-151 (32.3 - 39.1%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is more like something Talon would run if for some fucking reason someone decides to run HP Ground. So no.

If your counting on a flinch, that means it pretty much a counter. Any sweeper is deadly with spikes and sr. And talonflame wasn't the best example, but it's more like Kyogre using hp grass to beat gastrodon, any good sweeper can get past most of its counter with a weird moveset,

 

[Red Cat]

I've noticed that a lot of the posts here both for and against banning the suspects have a lot of calcs and theorymoning. If people would like to describe their actual experiences using / battling these threats and why they are broken or not based on these experiences, I think that would be a lot more helpful for this discussion. Showing replays of why they are broken or not broken would be even better.