XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Clair]

Well yeah, if you want to conflate well-considered opinions and "feelings". Sure, the system is elitist and in-group-biased as anything, but it works.

 

[haunter]

Just for clarification, so you're basically saying that suspect tests are simply based on the top members' "feelings"?

The last time we let the playerbase decide suspects directly, they ended up suggesting ridiculous ones, such as Volcarona and Dragonite. So yeah, if you mean "feelings" as in "opinions from people who're good at playing the game backed up by solid evidence" then sure, suspects are based off of our feelings.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Things don't have to be S rank to be broken or ban-worthy. I know this is a bad example, but observe Double Team and Moody for a moment. They wouldn't be like S-Tier moves or abilities, but are banned because of how luck based they are. Things can be unhealthy for the metagame without being "S-Tier".

That being said, obviously you can be S-Tier without being unhealthy or breaking the meta. Things are S-Tier typically because they break significant walls, or because they wall other opposing high tier threats. Things can be S-Tier simply because they fit into a role well and because they work.

S-Tier =/= Broken or ban-worthy

Double Team is an historic ban. The ban of Double Team happens before the Smogon community was even created. The ban of Double Team was decided around 1999-2000 in the first simulators available in that period.

The "historical bans" (ban before Smogon was created) are:
-Species Clause (two members of the same national dex number is not allowed)
-Ubers Clause (main legendaries are not allowed because they overcentralize, event pokemon that has around 600 BST will be examined case for case, there could be special pokemon considered Ubers)
-Sleep Clause (you can't sleep two or more pokemon on a opposing team. Exception: Rest)
-Freeze Clause (you can't freeze two or more pokemon on the opposing team
-Evasion Clause (you can't use the moves that only can cause evasion Double team and Minimize)
-OHKO Clause (you can't use the moves that directrly KO your opponent if they hit)

The Freeze Clause was deleted at the start of Gen V because it's rarity and risk in Wifi battle (enforced them in cartridges forces hax disqualifications).

 

[Aelsorm]

But with only base 95 offenses it still isn't THAT strong. I'm obviously not saying it's bad (it is a phenominal revenge killer), but it certainly isn't OP. It's similar to Talonflame in a way; FAST and relatively strong to get its job done, but not overpowered or ban-worthy.

However, Talonflame hasn't Deoxys's movepool and T-tar can stop it. There isn't really anything that can stop Deoxys for sure, without being hit hard.
Talonflame is attacker, Choice Band, Life Orb, Leftovers, whatever. You know it will attack, however, Deoxys might set-up SR, in that case you need to switch into Spinner, but it might attack, in that case you need to switch into a Defender (don't know any other that can work on Deoxys, I do know only Mandibuzz). But what if it will set-up SR and Spikes? So you need to play MANDIBUZZ, and because Deoxys you NEED TO PLAY DEFOG, in case it will set-up.

So answer is simple... you want to take care of Deoxys? Okay, no problem, Let's then everyone play Mandibuzz with Defog!

It will be very interesting to see Mandibuzz everywhere.

 

[rachet67]

Or you just wait for deoxys-s to switch out and then clear the hazards. Just switch into any mon with reasonable bulk, force it out, and switch to something that can clear the hazards if there are any.

 

[Thorhammer]

Or you just wait for deoxys-s to switch out and then clear the hazards. Just switch into any mon with reasonable bulk, force it out, and switch to something that can clear the hazards if there are any.

The extreme effectiveness of Charizard, Talonflame, and Pinsir in the current metagame is, after all, a testament to how reasonable and frequent hazard removal is right now.

 

[NeonNinja96]

Since the testing and voting are pretty much over, I want to say a quick goodbye to those mons (hopefully) being banned, and add some closing statements.

Mega Lucario. Where to begin, this thing is broken as all hell, goodbye.
Genesect. Whilst i don't want to see you do, I dont want to hear people bitch about it. Goodbye.
Deoxys-S. How did you end up here, i don't know. But I get the feeling that you will be staying with us.

 

[Wobbyble]

Eievui-Nymphia, holy shit I already said I knew it was a bad example, you don't have to give a history lesson lol. I was just explaining that if Moody was hypothetically legal, Octillary would not be S-Rank.
Jack Meister, Smogon's tiering and suspecting system is sound. I started playing Shoddy Battle in '08 and no stupid bans have happened, nor anything blatantly broken allowed to roam the metagame. I don't think anyone should question how suspecting is done.

And yeah, votes should be coming in soon, 99% sure it's Genesect and Lucarionite banned with Deoxys-S staying OU.

It's interesting how after 54 pages of discussion, people still seem to think suicide lead Deoxys S is the only way to use it.

 

[rachet67]

I think the vote results would've been announced earlier if it wasn't close on either genesect or deoxys-s (my money's on genesect). Though maybe they're just taking a while to tally the votes.

 

[Yuy]

Just for clarification, so you're basically saying that suspect tests are simply based on the top members' "feelings"?

It has been and always will be this way. This is the 'smogon metagame', which is where the tiering council choose more or less arbiltrarily what to test, and further, it's well known that Smogon is very selective about their play-pen metagame. -- Just for clarification.

 

[rachet67]

It has been and always will be this way. This is the 'smogon metagame', which is where the tiering council choose more or less arbiltrarily what to test, and further, it's well known that Smogon is very selective about their play-pen metagame. -- Just for clarification.

The OU council tests nothing arbitrarily. The OU council is composed not only of really good players, but players that are knowledgable and opinion's widely respected. They decide to test what might be broken or detrimental to competitiveness (such as moody or double team). The whole idea of the suspect test, is that once the suspects are chosen, the player base who has proven themselves capable on the ladder is then able to vote whether these pokemon or strategies deserve to be banned. The whole process is more democratic than people make it out to be.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I'm honestly not sure if heatran should go ubers. People say how op it is but it hasnt really become the center of the metagame, like heatran is a hard counter to it but is heatran used on every team because of it? I think people recognize genesect as strong but have found multiple counters to it like assault vest conkeldurr and people get this counter on their team without even having a thought about genesect in their mind when they make the team. Mega lucario on the other hand actually comes onto someones mind for team building and even with this counter mega luc can wreck teams. Im still not really sure how the voting will go but i think only mega luc should be banned and maybe genesect.

 

[Thorhammer]

I'm honestly not sure if heatran should go ubers.

Do you mean Genesect?

 

[haunter]

Voting phase is over. Lucarionite and Genesect are banned to Ubers. Deoxys-S remains OU. Thanks to those who took part in this test.