Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Witip kanto red]

So basically any team lacking Zapdos loses to Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. Any team lacking Mr. Mime loses to Perish Song, Noivern, and Gardevior.

Cloyster, Deoxys, Sturdy + Red Card, and Thundurus are all hard counters no matter what.


How exactly does Vaporeon pass acid armor against a Taunting Gyarados? Lol

And who uses a taunting mega gyarados?gyarados standar move set is dragon dance,EQ,waterfall and stone edge/ice fang, taunting mega gyarados is so antimeta like haze crobat

 

[Dope Boi Magic]

I love how the argument is that because baton pass cannot be entirely annihilated by every poke with any strategy it should be banned. No one seems to want to actually admit that there are counters because they don't give a guaranteed win against baton pass. Everyone in the thread wants some god Pokemon to come down and completely stop baton pass in every way. The top player on the ladder doesn't have many counters either to their team, should we ban that team too? There's no surefire counter so it must be OP and should be banned.

Everyone seems to ignore real counters because OMG baton pass might be able to respond to it as well. Send in the counter early and keep the pressure on, it's easy.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

And who uses a taunting mega gyarados?gyarados normal move set is dragon dance,EQ,waterfall and stone edge/ice fang, taunting mega gyarados is so antimeta like haze crobat

And who would have used Dugtrio enough to make it OU last generation? Someone that dislikes weather teams. It became viable. If you're afraid to alter the Smogon specific sets to counter a popular team, then wtf is going on here? I thought the whole idea behind a meta was that it evolves over time... If we ban any potential threat then where exactly is the meta?

 

[Dope Boi Magic]

Do you have any replays showing off Gardevoir's amazing ability to counter BP teams, or is this just mindless theorymon? In the case of the ladder, this example doesn't hold much ground...

I have been beaten by trace gardevoir.. I don't play showdown much so no I have no replays.

 

[Witip kanto red]

And who would have used Dugtrio enough to make it OU last generation? Someone that dislikes weather teams. It became viable. If you're afraid to alter the Smogon specific sets to counter a popular team, then wtf is going on here? I thought the whole idea behind a meta was that it evolves over time... If we ban any potential threat then where exactly is the meta?

That have nonsense, you're saying that we shouldn't ban swagger, mega kangaskan,mega lucario and every other broken thing only because have potential?

 

[Hiphiphooray]

If you want a OU counter so you don't have to get creative, try mega alakazam, mega mawile, thundurus or mega pinsir. Talonflame works well too if played on a volt-turn team.

Banning an entire competitive strategy isn't the same as banning a strong pokemon. We didn't ban weather, we don't need to ban baton pass.

edit, and just for kicks, if you want a fun counter, try sniper crit build kingdra, haha.

 

[probationsmack]

The sentiment I'm getting here is that with one addition (speed boost scolipede) baton pass is suddenly a force to be reckoned with for the first time ever? Because that's really the only differential from last gen where no one gave a shit about the playstyle. I've seen too much crying about not being able to fit a hazer and the only thing I can respond with is that you most certainly are unwilling to "deal with it". At this point, I would love to see a suspect test just so people will get out of their teambuilding comfort zones and use 1/24 move slot on their team to 'deal with it'. The few baton pass teams I've faced recently were a good time. I lost some, I won some. Using a combination of strong offense (set up a swords dance with talonflame on a scolipede lead), a taunter with a super effective attack for espeon which makes the choice to switch a coin flip, and a haze here and there, it was a good back and forth and at no point that I feel like I didnt have options.

 

[vox_amoris]

Sorry about the swearing, it's just that this is just ridiculous, I'm seeing people bring up stuff that's already been posted million of times in this same thread (or even in the first like 5 pages for God's sake).

Again with the Haze thing that has been discussed tirelessly already. The problem is that Haze is (at least in the current Meta) ONLY useful for this finality, to stop BP chains, and it's not reliable because they can just boost up again, or Sleep your Haze user. Besides, the only team archetype that effectively can use Haze is stall or maybe Balanced, and then how exactly will you wear them down?

That isn't that simple, they have switch initiative. Espeon can just BP to Sylveon or Vaporeon to deal with it's counters.

Some are actually, lol. In the first pages around 10 idek, people bring up Haze Murkrow as I way to counter them and that is just laughable. I mean, of course we can ''adapt'' to BP and then everyone starts using Haze Murkrow JUST to stop this ridiculous team, and then have to face every other team with one less mon, do we really want that? We have to take into account that even if changes made to this playstyle affects low-ladder players, it's for balance sake. Btw, why are you saying that it'll affect them in the ladder if the ladder is not important? How is (hypothetically) banning 2-3 Pokemon with Baton Pass on a team negatively affecting anyone BUT those using teams like this just to get high on the ladder anyway?

Thank you for the swearing apology. :) I can sympathize with your frustration.

Haze is also useful for stopping setup sweepers' Swords Dances or Nasty Plots, or for removing untimely drops from Seed Flare/etc.

Saying that "they can just boost up again" is very true. However, by disrupting the strategy, you are giving yourself an advantage in the battle. In the turns the Baton Pass team spends regrouping to set up the chain again, you can attack them directly. In this scenario, it is comparable to wearing down a stall team.

I feel that this is getting off topic, but I will clarify my earlier post. The ladder and its ranking algorithms are meant to find you competitive games with players around your skill level. It is not meant to be a definitive measuring stick of the best players. Saying that it is unfair someone rose up the ladder because of their strategy is not an argument to support banning the strategy. If a player that is known by the community to be skillful does not ladder, or simply messes around on the ladder, should they be considered unskilled?

 

[Red Cat]

The goal of a potential suspect test would be to make the full Baton Pass chain archetype manageable, in a way where teams should not be forced to carry gimmick/obscure counters in order to not lose to it already in the team preview phase.

When, earlier today, I asked you to elaborate on the proposal of limiting a N number of Baton Pass Pokémon on the same team, I was looking for concrete examples of how a team of, let's say, 4 baton passers would work. In other words, what Pokémon are absolutely necessary for a full Baton Pass team to be effective?

Well, let's look at the components of Baton Pass in order of importance:

1a & 1b. Scolipede and Espeon: Baton Pass chains absolutely need these two to be even remotely viable. However, both lack bulk, so most powerful attackers can get by just these two with brute force. A limit of 2 Baton Passers would make Baton Pass chains unviable and is overkill.

3. Vaporeon: Vaporeon provides the physical bulk that Espeon and Scolipede lack. Vaporeon can be annoying because of its ability to phaze and boost its defenses. Just these three can be hard to deal with if you do not have proper counters. However, strong special attackers like Aegislash can still muscle through a core of only Scolipede, Espeon, and Vaporeon. Dark types also don't fear this core very much. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, Mega Heracross, Mega Manectric, Thundurus-I, Azumarill and Landorus-I are all examples which do not have much trouble with this core. A team with 3 Baton Passers is borderline viable because of all of these common threats which can easily destroy them.

4. Sylveon: Sylveon provides the special bulk and Dark type counter which has made Baton Pass teams prominent. Still, even with Sylveon, Baton Pass still has trouble with Crumbler Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, Thundurus-I, Azumarill, and Landorus-I with Sludge Wave. It is more manageable than 5 or more Baton Passers because they do not have Zapdos to handle things like Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, and they do not have Smeargle to shut down a threat with Spore. Because they do not have Smeargle for Ingrain, they have to rely on prediction to avoid phazing. A team with 4 Baton Passers can be very good, but manageable for other players who are prepared.

Thus, I think that 4 is the magic number for those who want to nerf Baton Pass without making it unviable. I think it is appropriate for players to meet any bans halfway in the middle. What I mean is that we can help people by nerfing Baton Pass, but the playerbase also bears some responsibility in better preparing themselves for Baton Pass teams. We should not cater to players who do not like Baton Pass by making it completely unviable. I think we should be conservative with any ban, and set the limit to 4 Baton Passers.

 

[probationsmack]

In the context of baton pass what makes scolipede act any differently from ninjask other than iron defense? What is so different now that baton pass has become too good?

 

[Witip kanto red]

If you want a OU counter so you don't have to get creative, try mega heracross, mega mawile, thundurus or mega pinsir. Talonflame works well too if played on a volt-turn team.

I has look so many DenisSsSs replays, so many people with a thundurs prankster being crushed by baton pass, thundurus really cannot beat so easily BP mega pinsir is the only real wallbreaker that could work against BP(Talon have his counter vaporeon)scollipede can stop mawile,and heracross almost is not used on OU and stored power is super effective against him

BP have only 2 counters, haze and mega pinsir, and what happen if you don't use a pinsir?

 

[Zethoro]

Well, let's look at the components of Baton Pass in order of importance:

1a & 1b. Scolipede and Espeon: Baton Pass chains absolutely need these two to be even remotely viable. However, both lack bulk, so most powerful attackers can get by just these two with brute force. A limit of 2 Baton Passers would make Baton Pass chains unviable and is overkill.

3. Vaporeon: Vaporeon provides the physical bulk that Espeon and Scolipede lack. Vaporeon can be annoying because of its ability to phaze and boost its defenses. Just these three can be hard to deal with if you do not have proper counters. However, strong special attackers like Aegislash can still muscle through a core of only Scolipede, Espeon, and Vaporeon. Dark types also don't fear this core very much. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, Mega Heracross, Mega Manectric, Thundurus-I, Azumarill and Landorus-I are all examples which do not have much trouble with this core. A team with 3 Baton Passers is borderline viable because of all of these common threats which can easily destroy them.

4. Sylveon: Sylveon provides the special bulk and Dark type counter which has made Baton Pass teams prominent. Still, even with Sylveon, Baton Pass still has trouble with Crumbler Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, Thundurus-I, Azumarill, and Landorus-I with Sludge Wave. It is more manageable than 5 or more Baton Passers because they do not have Zapdos to handle things like Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, and they do not have Smeargle to shut down a threat with Spore. Because they do not have Smeargle for Ingrain, they have to rely on prediction to avoid phazing. A team with 4 Baton Passers can be very good, but manageable for other players who are prepared.

Thus, I think that 4 is the magic number for those who want to nerf Baton Pass without making it unviable. I think it is appropriate for players to meet any bans halfway in the middle. What I mean is that we can help people by nerfing Baton Pass, but the playerbase also bears some responsibility in better preparing themselves for Baton Pass teams. We should not cater to players who do not like Baton Pass by making it completely unviable. I think we should be conservative with any ban, and set the limit to 4 Baton Passers.

I can respect that compromise. Frankly it's a decent idea.

 

[Magnemite]

And who would have used Dugtrio enough to make it OU last generation? Someone that dislikes weather teams. It became viable. If you're afraid to alter the Smogon specific sets to counter a popular team, then wtf is going on here? I thought the whole idea behind a meta was that it evolves over time... If we ban any potential threat then where exactly is the meta?

Dugtrio was almost always used on weather teams to beat other weather teams. Trapping the opposing weather setter when you're running weatherless is pointless. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by saying this.

As for the meta changing over time, you can say that about literally every possible broken thing in any tier. Sure, let's allow Kyogre in RU. You simply need a Shedinja or Gastrodon on every team. It has plenty of viable counters. The meta will adapt over time to counter the new threat. Sure, keep telling yourself that. If you use this "logic", then it is fundamentally impossible for anything to be broken. Go have fun playing 300 Mega Kangaskhan teams in a row on battle spot if you're into this sort of thing. No one wants to have to shove random LC mons like Murkrow onto thier teams or waste a their mega slot on a garbage Gyarados set just to have a fighting chance against BP.

Also, I'm kind of sick of you just listing off random things and claiming thay beat BP without providing so much as a sliver of evidence that they actually beat a skilled player running BP. It's pretty meaningless, especially since most of them don't actually beat BP. Imagine that.

 

[HauntedPumpkin]

Thank you for the swearing apology. :) I can sympathize with your frustration.

Haze is also useful for stopping setup sweepers' Swords Dances or Nasty Plots, or for removing untimely drops from Seed Flare/etc. I regularly run Haze on Milotic just for this.

Saying that "they can just boost up again" is very true. However, by disrupting the strategy, you are giving yourself an advantage in the battle. In the turns the Baton Pass team spends regrouping to set up the chain again, you can attack them directly. In this scenario, it is comparable to wearing down a stall team.

I feel that this is getting off topic, but I will clarify my earlier post. The ladder and its ranking algorithms are meant to find you competitive games with players around your skill level. It is not meant to be a definitive measuring stick of the best players. Saying that it is unfair someone rose up the ladder because of their strategy is not an argument to support banning the strategy. If a player that is known by the community to be skillful does not ladder, or simply messes around on the ladder, should they be considered unskilled?

It's useful, but literally the only viable user of Haze in OU is Quagsire, who already has Unaware to deal with those, it's clearly a waste of a move slot (which admittedly he can doesn't really mind much, still). I mean, okay you have your Milotic but she's not that good in OU, and that's why she isn't in it. Also, they can overwhelm you boosting again even if you are attacking. I'm actually having a hard time imagining this scenario... Which playstyle are you running? Stall? They beat you, HO? They switch to the counter, boost up Defense or force a switch and then keep going. And this is easily done since they switch through BP, allowing them to just pick the best thing to get into the field at the right time.

I agree that the ladder isn't exactly the best thing to base an argument, but the fact is, in the ladder or not, people use these teams and win the majority of times because of how match-up based they are. If you don't have a hard counter to them (of which there aren't that many), you most certainly will lose, and how is that healthy for the meta?

 

[Petrico94]

In the context of baton pass what makes scolipede act any differently from ninjask other than iron defense? What is so different now that baton pass has become too good?

Scolipede tends to be more offensive on his own and has better defense stats but assuming all you want is buffs and baton pass, they'll have the same moves excluding iron defense.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Also, I'm kind of sick of you just listing off random things and claiming thay beat BP without providing so much as a sliver of evidence that they actually beat a skilled player running BP. It's pretty meaningless, especially since most of them don't actually beat BP. Imagine that.

I listed numbers. Mega Pinsir and Talonflame and Thundurus all able to setup and win. Do you need me to spoon feed it with a replay?

Lets not forget Deoxys-S. Knock Off and Taunt destroy just about everything.

 

[Jukain]

I listed numbers. Mega Pinsir and Talonflame and Thundurus all able to setup and win. Do you need me to spoon feed it with a replay? lol

So somehow these things are getting past Vaporeon, Sylveon, and Zapdos? Yeah no.

 

[Magnemite]

I listed numbers. Mega Pinsir and Talonflame and Thundurus all able to setup and win. Do you need me to spoon feed it with a replay? lol

Umm, yes, a replay of these things beating good players using BP would be nice, considering replays of them losing to BP have already been posted by Jukain. I don't know why you're so adverse to actually backing up your claims.

 

[probationsmack]

This thread is becoming repetitive as hell holy shit can something please be added to the OP like blacklisting ideas of counters to BP because this thread is slowly degrading to explaining people who don't know jackshit about meta relevance non-existant counters to BP it's actually really annoying.

Plenty of us have been dicking around with the meta since netbattle, skarmbliss and curselax were a thing. Hell, I witnessed the new hotness that was a uu tier be born back on the og irc simulator. What has continually been annoying all that time is this idea you have the privelege of not needing to run specific counter strategies because something upsets you. This isn't weather, this isn't mega lucario, baton pass lacks immediate offensive precense and requires a few good reads unless you were simply unprepared. That's a problem with teambuilding, and hazing/phazing measures were always a consideration going back to gen 2.

 

[vox_amoris]

It's useful, but literally the only viable user of Haze in OU is Quagsire, who already has Unaware to deal with those, it's clearly a waste of a move slot (which admittedly he can doesn't really mind much, still). I mean, okay you have your Milotic but she's not that good in OU, and that's why she isn't in it. Also, they can overwhelm you boosting again even if you are attacking. I'm actually having a hard time imagining this scenario... Which playstyle are you running? Stall? They beat you, HO? They switch to the counter, boost up Defense or force a switch and then keep going. And this is easily done since they switch through BP, allowing them to just pick the best thing to get into the field at the right time.

I agree that the ladder isn't exactly the best thing to base an argument, but the fact is, in the ladder or not, people use these teams and win the majority of times because of how match-up based they are. If you don't have a hard counter to them (of which there aren't that many), you most certainly will lose, and how is that healthy for the meta?

Yeahhhh, I didn't do a good job with that Milotic statement, lol. I know Milotic isn't in OU, but it isn't inconceivable in the tier.

As to your last statement, you didn't get my point about the ladder and rankings not being a part of the metagame. Not even a little bit. The metagame consists of the Pokemon, their movesets/abilities/uses, and strategies for using and countering them. The ladder is a tool for matching you against similarly skilled players, and that's all. Therefore, it has no usage in this debate on Baton Pass.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

So somehow these things are getting past Vaporeon, Sylveon, and Zapdos? Yeah no.

If the team has Zapdos, then they are at a huge disadvantage when you have a mega pinsir. They must lead zapdos. Played right, you can start with a huge advantage there. Without Zapdos it's GG. The team posted online used Mr. Mime over Zapdos.

Vaporeon is 2kho by Choiced Talonflame. You can't switch into it
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 231-273 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thundurus after nasty plot:
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can only beat Thundurus if you lead Sylveon, another huge disadvantage.

 

[QuickBH]

Plenty of us have been dicking around with the meta since netbattle, skarmbliss and curselax were a thing. Hell, I witnessed the new hotness that was a uu tier be born back on the og irc simulator. What has continually been annoying all that time is this idea you have the privelege of not needing to run specific counter strategies because something upsets you. This isn't weather, this isn't mega lucario, baton pass lacks immediate offensive precense and requires a few good reads unless you were simply unprepared. That's a problem with teambuilding, and hazing/phazing measures were always a consideration going back to gen 2.

Few good reads? You have a scolipede that will get at least +2 before baton passing into anything that counters it and if not you have a Smeargle that will put it to sleep then proceed to baton pass to Vaporeon not named Espeon set up you can't do jack shit because you can't even switch around baton pass as they will see you switch into Espeon before you can even roar/taunt. :/ Mega Pinsir is the closest thing to reliably beating baton pass except jk because Zapdos and Vaporeon.

The upsetting part is this has been refuted multiple times yet nobody seems to understand or read. Tbh though I expected this to happen but still it's annoying ok.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

I feel like every PRO BAN comment assumes that you are immediately up against the Baton Pass team at +6 all stats. The whole point of beating a Baton Pass team is beating them early. Simply having Thundurus or Mega Pinsir forces the enemy to lead Sylveon or Zapdos respectfully. If that isn't enough to stop the momentum then you are just playing wrong. :/

Outside of that, there are countless viable counters with correct prediction. Talonflame and Deoxys-S are two great ones that have been mentioned repetitively. No one seems to mention the fact that Volt-Turn + Priority is an insanely strong counter to Baton Pass.

 

[HauntedPumpkin]

Yeahhhh, I didn't do a good job with that Milotic statement, lol. I know Milotic isn't in OU, but it isn't inconceivable in the tier.

As to your last statement, you didn't get my point about the ladder and rankings not being a part of the metagame. Not even a little bit. The metagame consists of the Pokemon, their movesets/abilities/uses, and strategies for using and countering them. The ladder is a tool for matching you against similarly skilled players, and that's all. Therefore, it has no usage in this debate on Baton Pass.

Yes, I really don't get what you're trying to say there. I mean, okay, the ladder doesn't matter. What's your point? (genuinely asking because I have no idea)
BP doesn't have a lot of (reliable) ways to be dealt with, therefore I think it needs some kind of nerf, that's basically it, imo.

 

[probationsmack]

Few good reads? You have a scolipede that will get at least +2 before baton passing into anything that counters it and if not you have a Smeargle that will put it to sleep then proceed to baton pass to Vaporeon not named Espeon set up you can't do jack shit because you can't even switch around baton pass as they will see you switch into Espeon before you can even roar. :/

The upsetting part is this has been refuted multiple times yet nobody seems to understand or read.

Soooo you're admitting its usually in the best intetest to lead with smearg/scolipede? Because I notice that too with these teams, and there are ways to capitalise on that tendency. Its 1am so I may elaborate more tomorrow.