Obviously, there are SOME ways to stop a BP team. It's not some iron aegis of Armageddon that is unbeatable. You can get a lucky crit. You can run some obscure counter. Or you can run a strong priority user like Talonflame and take them down before they get the chain going. That's three ways to stop a BP team. Unfortunately, only one of those three ways is a viable option in OU. If your team ISN'T packed with Talonflame and other strong priority users, there's an extremely high chance you won't win against a BP team. Sound fair and balanced to you?
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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Yeah and Sylveon didn't exist either nor was Mr. Mime Fairy so know BP has an answer to set up baton pass and dragons can't wreck as hard. Most important thing is that ninjask is frail as fuck and will be able to literally prevent ninjask from getting a sub up from any not Mach punch/Vaccuum wave/Sucker Punch priority. You make no point.
Gliscor isn't nearly as viable as zapdos/smeargle/Mr mime, so why would we run a sub optimal set/poke?
Baton pass teams don't have scolipede/vaporeon/zapdos/Mr mime/smeargle/gliscor/sylveon/espeon all on one team. Without one of those key smeargle zapdos or Mr mime baton pass becomes weak to another counter.
Baton pass teams don't have scolipede/vaporeon/zapdos/Mr mime/smeargle/gliscor/sylveon/espeon all on one team. Without one of those key smeargle zapdos or Mr mime baton pass becomes weak to another counter.
And now the debate has taken a positive turn. I completely agree that this is what we need to be discussing. There are too many kids in here crying that Baton Pass cannot be countered or that no viable counters exist. I was simply trying to prove, "Baton Pass is very easily beaten by specific strategies and many viable hard counters do exist."
The real question is should people learn to use new Pokemon in OU to beat Baton Pass, or should we ban it?
This still doesn't change the fact that literally only one viable counter exists that always beats every variant of BP while being useful against anything else (Taunt Thundurus-I)
(no Haze Quagsire doesn't count because Unaware + Haze is ridiculously stupid)
sigh... and here we go again. I think the thread speaks for itself that a number of viable hard counters do exist in all cases. Stop bringing this up and let us focus on the real question.
All of these can be perfectly viable with team support.
Thundurus – Nasty Plot + Taunt
Mega Pinsir – Sword Dance + Return + Quick Attack
Mega Gyarados – Mold Breaker Taunt + Dark Typing. Can 2hko Sylveon first and setup on everything else.
Haxorous – Mold Breaker Roar
Mega Mawile – Play Rough does insane damage after a sword dance.
Deoxys-S – Knock off + Taunt
Trevenant - Curse
Talonflame – Choiced Bravebird
Crobat - Haze + Roost + Brave Bird or Whirlwind
Quagsire - Haze (yes it can die to +6 Stored Power, use it early...)
Sturdy + Red Card: Skarmory, Foretress
Thundurus – Nasty Plot + Taunt
Mega Pinsir – Sword Dance + Return + Quick Attack
Mega Gyarados – Mold Breaker Taunt + Dark Typing. Can 2hko Sylveon first and setup on everything else.
Haxorous – Mold Breaker Roar
Mega Mawile – Play Rough does insane damage after a sword dance.
Deoxys-S – Knock off + Taunt
Trevenant - Curse
Talonflame – Choiced Bravebird
Crobat - Haze + Roost + Brave Bird or Whirlwind
Quagsire - Haze (yes it can die to +6 Stored Power, use it early...)
Sturdy + Red Card: Skarmory, Foretress
Gliscor can fit over Zapdos well enough - it doesn't perfectly wall Talonflame or Mega Pinsir, but they can't 2HKO it once it's poisoned (Pinsir needs Adamant or Thrash to do so, Talonflame just cries), and it gives your strategy of Volt-turn + Talonflame plenty of issues on its own.
Here, let's assume you're in a battle - Magnezone / U-turner / Talonflame / three more Pokemon (including one Dark-type) vs. Scolipede / Sylveon / Espeon / Vaporeon / Smeargle / Gliscor. You get a strong lead matchup on him - Talonflame vs. Scolipede.
Seeing that Scolipede isn't winning that matchup, he sacks Sylveon - the Pokemon that is going to do the least to your team, most likely.
He then brings in Smeargle, takes a Brave Bird and Spores (or Spores the switchin if you opt to do that).
You bring in Magnezone and he goes to Gliscor on the Baton Pass, activating Poison Heal.
From here he can Sub against Magnezone, scouting your move or your switch, and acts accordingly - if you attack Gliscor with Magnezone (assuming you're running Specs, the only viable Magnezone set since last generation), he can Baton Pass to Vaporeon and get off an Acid Armor before passing to Scolipede. What happens when he passes to Scolipede?
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%)
That.
"But Arcticblast, I would have gone to Talonflame on the switch instead of Magnezone!" Right - he has the switch initiative with Baton Pass and can go to something entirely different. There are so many ways that Flyspam Volt-turn vs. Baton Pass can go and some of them will inevitably end in the BP user's favor. I outlined one.
Discounting niche sets like Haze Quagsire and Roar Mega Gyarados, nothing - I repeat, nothing - is guaranteed a win against Baton Pass.
Gasp! How dare you criticize the standard team setups and claim that unique things are needed!
Seriously though, this in a nutshell is why I feel that nothing should be done about Baton Pass teams. If the metagame has to evolve, as it should by definition, in order to counteract Baton Pass, that is a good thing imo. The fact that Pokemon has a deep metagame is what keeps it interesting for me. When players refuse to adapt because this would force them out of their comfort zone, this suggests that the metagame, in this case OU, is stagnant.
EDIT @ below: I refuse to acknowledge that Baton Pass has a large number of counters because that is an unambiguously incorrect statement
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If all the top tier players are running Baton Pass and winning 90% of the time, why are these sets so 'niche?' Shouldn't they become standard?
Yes, I agree Gliscor beats that particular situation. But it's along the lines of 4 slot move syndrome. With Mr. Mime, Gliscor, Smeargle, and Zapdos, you can't beat everything. Heck even with all 4 you still couldn't beat some things!
Magnemite, I'm done trying to argue with you man. If you refuse to acknowledge that Baton Pass has large number of counters, then your blind. Sure they may not be 'OU viable' right now, but the real debate is whether or not Baton Pass should be allow to make these counters common enough that they become OU. Should the meta evolve or not?
The tier is labeled OverUsed. It isn't based on BST or favorites. The pokemon here are here because they are OverUsed. I would love to see Crobat enter OU to give some BP users a run for their money! Forretress should get some new love as a viable Baton Pass counter.
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Sigh... I love it when people say something isn't OU viable. Things become OU because they are OverUsed. Why is something overused? To counteract a certain Pokemon or strategy, or because it has some value to the players using it. Like, say, stopping Baton Pass chains. If you want to claim that teams don't have room for these counters, then please show me a team that counters everything except Baton Pass.
Why does there need to be a guaranteed win over baton pass? Isn't it more about strategy than simply having a mindless counter to the team? Shouldn't new strategies evolve to deal with baton pass?
So that's why no one uses battle logs over replays anymore
Unique things are fine. An evolving metagame is fine. When is it too much though? It's too much when a big portion of the current metagame is unable to cope with a certain threat. If we were to unban all of the uber pokemon, the metagame would undoubtedly evolve and force people out of their "comfort zone", but this evolution would be unfavorable to many people. Only a select few pokemon can stand up to the awesome power of an uber pokemon. The same thing applies to BP teams. Just because it forces the metagame to evolve (everything forces it to evolve anyway), doesn't mean that it's a good thing.
Good point. I agree this is the question at hand. Although in this case we need to be careful drawing comparisons between a single Uber Pokemon and a competitive tactic.
Has a ban on a competitive tactic ever been done before? I know weather teams made it. I enjoyed watch the BW OU meta evolve around some completely new tactic. Politoed's transition into OU will always be my favorite bit of Pokemon History. "Do you remember back when that shitty little toad was one of the best in the game?"
So much for "Volt Turn and Talonflame always beats Baton Pass" then, hmm?
In this case? No. There are top tier Pokemon and even entire playstyles that are absolute deadweight against Baton Pass - Landorus-T can struggle to break past Vaporeon or a boosted Scolipede. Said Scolipede sets up Speed boosts against Mega Charizard (either forme) before passing to either Smeargle or Vaporeon. Keldeo gets boned by Sylveon. Even Aegislash can't handle Baton Pass unless it gets in really early and avoids Smeargle like the plague (if it gets in too late Espeon just OHKOs). Stall just gets wrecked. A metagame entirely revolving around a playstyle that can still beat its supposed counters is nowhere near an ideal metagame.
It's a lot harder to play around Baton Pass than any typical OU strategy for reasons already stated in this thread (switch advantage, slowly accumulating boosts, etc.).
You are 100% right. Just because something forces the metagame to evolve does not mean it's a good thing. However, I am of the opinion that there are enough things to counteract Baton Pass (not guarantee a win against it) that it should not be nerfed or banned. I feel that the only things that should ever be banned, other than the sense of legendaries being Uber, are things that cannot be fixed except by GameFreak altering the mechanic via the game coding. Drizzle/SwiftSwim is a good example because of the way permanent weather worked. And well, GameFreak changed that this gen.
Why should anything have a guaranteed win against bp? It's not a pokemon or a move, it's an entire playstyle. You complain bp wins before the match starts, but you are only willing to accept the proposed answers to bp if they win before the battle starts. How is that fair?
Nothing is guaranteed a win against hyper offense teams. Should we ban hyper offense?
I like to believe the discussion already evolved past the point of "x should counter bp 100% of the time". If not, them allow me to repeat so you people can put that in your heads:
There is not, and there shouldn't be, a 100% flawless, easy to place in a team, counter to an entire playstyle (such as bp). Of such a thing existed, said playstyle would not be viable.
Ninja Charizard, I was more or less refuting HipHipHooray's claim that Volt Turn + Talonflame always beats Baton Pass.
gotta get that confident closing statement tho
EDIT @ the reply: That's pretty accurate, yes
gotta get that confident closing statement tho
EDIT @ the reply: That's pretty accurate, yes
You know the suggested log was for a team with Mr. Mime right? XD I already said yes Gliscor is a great counter to Volt-Turn, but like 4 slot move syndrome, you can't counter everything. I think the bottom line really is that you feel the meta could never shift naturally to solve Baton Pass and that there exists no style of team that can beat Baton Pass while being able to compete with other styles, such as stall, hyper offense, balanced, volt-turn, trick room, weather, etc. Would you say that is correct?
I'm not trying to call you out btw, just trying to see your point more clearly.
This the point were we tell people that there are 3 sides to the argument and they have to clearly choose so they don't confuse the OU council first of all and their peers second:
1) Keep BP as is: The holder of this view (RIP english) truly believes that BP is not as overpowered, matchup reliant, cannot be countered without niche and useless pokemon/moves and is not statistically perfect as their opponents believe, and structures his posts to support these claims, especially the counter part with relevant calculations and realistic scenarios.
2) Nerf BP: BP was at one point a top but manageable playstyle, but due to Gen 6 changes (mechanics, mons, moves) it has become too much for OU to handle and there needs to be a nerf so the metagame can return to it's competitiveness. Baton pass itself isn't a troublesome move within and outside the context of this playstyle, and the nerf itself should be made so that BP can continue to function without breaking the meta. Bans specified to specific mons such as Speed Boost Scoli or Bouncy Espoen fall under here, as well as complex bans of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce, etc.
3) Ban BP (nerf it beyond repair): BP was never counterable to begin with, this gen just made it much worse. The team style is uncounterable for the most part, forces people to use niche/circumstantial checks and moves that are completely useless elsewhere, the team is matchup reliant and is as perfect as a team can possibly get. Calls to ban a number of BP users (2-4) fall under here as well as blanket bans on Baton Pass, etc.
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But before that can we please do without the "lulz BP is not a legit playstyle" crap. This isn't the purpose of the thread, Deo+5 was also a playstyle that came as close to perfection as anyone can get in BW2, it was nerfed beyond repair because it was "illegitimate", it was nerfed because no other playstyle came close to its efficiency and not using that template was to either challenge yourself or handicap it. It was a lazy way to win whenever you needed one. Lot's of players put time and effort to perfect both these teams, they shouldn't be dissed directly or indirectly.
1) Keep BP as is: The holder of this view (RIP english) truly believes that BP is not as overpowered, matchup reliant, cannot be countered without niche and useless pokemon/moves and is not statistically perfect as their opponents believe, and structures his posts to support these claims, especially the counter part with relevant calculations and realistic scenarios.
2) Nerf BP: BP was at one point a top but manageable playstyle, but due to Gen 6 changes (mechanics, mons, moves) it has become too much for OU to handle and there needs to be a nerf so the metagame can return to it's competitiveness. Baton pass itself isn't a troublesome move within and outside the context of this playstyle, and the nerf itself should be made so that BP can continue to function without breaking the meta. Bans specified to specific mons such as Speed Boost Scoli or Bouncy Espoen fall under here, as well as complex bans of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce, etc.
3) Ban BP (nerf it beyond repair): BP was never counterable to begin with, this gen just made it much worse. The team style is uncounterable for the most part, forces people to use niche/circumstantial checks and moves that are completely useless elsewhere, the team is matchup reliant and is as perfect as a team can possibly get. Calls to ban a number of BP users (2-4) fall under here as well as blanket bans on Baton Pass, etc.
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But before that can we please do without the "lulz BP is not a legit playstyle" crap. This isn't the purpose of the thread, Deo+5 was also a playstyle that came as close to perfection as anyone can get in BW2, it was nerfed beyond repair because it was "illegitimate", it was nerfed because no other playstyle came close to its efficiency and not using that template was to either challenge yourself or handicap it. It was a lazy way to win whenever you needed one. Lot's of players put time and effort to perfect both these teams, they shouldn't be dissed directly or indirectly.
No, because everything that doesn't auto-win against BP auto-loses against it. There is no in-between. Even if there were more than a few good counters to BP, the absurd matchup-reliancy it causes would still be enough to make it ridiculously unhealthy for the metagame. If you played BW OU extensively (and were good at it), you would know how easily something like this can completely ruin a metagame.
Keep Baton Pass as it is, let the meta game evolve so that new Pokemon can enter the OU tier. Lets get creative and find new Pokemon and movesets that help us win.
We don't need to ban it, we just need to remember that the Pokemon in OU are OverUsed. They are there because people use them a lot. If every Pokemon that knows Baton Pass enters the OU tier, then let the meta respond by bringing more hard counters. Unlike other playstyles, Baton Pass is one of the few that has selective moves able to eliminate it entirely. Should we chose to OverUse these moves, and the Pokemon capable of using them, then we won't need a ban for Baton Pass at all.
Ask yourself, should I change my team and adapt to beat the abundance of Baton Passers, or should we just ban it?
We don't need to ban it, we just need to remember that the Pokemon in OU are OverUsed. They are there because people use them a lot. If every Pokemon that knows Baton Pass enters the OU tier, then let the meta respond by bringing more hard counters. Unlike other playstyles, Baton Pass is one of the few that has selective moves able to eliminate it entirely. Should we chose to OverUse these moves, and the Pokemon capable of using them, then we won't need a ban for Baton Pass at all.
Ask yourself, should I change my team and adapt to beat the abundance of Baton Passers, or should we just ban it?
I could elaborate on that again, but it seems I've already done that half a dozen times. To make it simple, there are quite a lot of viable pokemon in OU who can do well against bp, bit not auto win against it, as long as you employ heavy offense from turn 1. Please refer to every other page ij this thread for examples.
And please, people, stop bringing up haze quagsire. No one seriously believes bp is not op just because of haze quagsire. I think I'm seeing more people mention it at the ban side than the anti ban side. It's become a strawman fallacy at this point. Like "the anti-ban people are delusional because they believe haze quagsire works against bp, even thjough they stopped mentioning that 30 pages ago".
So the debate in essence is, should we let the OU metagame evolve to counteract Baton Pass teams, or should we ban/nerf them?
I support letting the OU metagame evolve. I have seen claims that certain counters are not viable in OU. Usage rate is entirely in the hands of the players, meaning that if counters to Baton Pass become overused, there can be no further arguments about them being viable or not. I am not the most skilled or experienced player on the forums, so I will leave detailed arguments involving damage calcs, replays and the like to more knowledgeable members. However, I would like to say that banning something because you do not wish to adapt may come across as petty to anyone outside the community, which is not how I want Smogon, or myself, to be viewed.
I support letting the OU metagame evolve. I have seen claims that certain counters are not viable in OU. Usage rate is entirely in the hands of the players, meaning that if counters to Baton Pass become overused, there can be no further arguments about them being viable or not. I am not the most skilled or experienced player on the forums, so I will leave detailed arguments involving damage calcs, replays and the like to more knowledgeable members. However, I would like to say that banning something because you do not wish to adapt may come across as petty to anyone outside the community, which is not how I want Smogon, or myself, to be viewed.
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