Is philosophy still relevant?

So I came across a juvenile, fallacy-ridden article today that nonetheless got me thinking. Is philosophy still relevant to humanity and its pursuit of... whatever it's pursuing? If so, in what ways is it relevant, and in what ways do people believe it's relevant when it's not? I don't want to get too much into my personal opinions on the matter in this post, because I feel like when I do that, I might as well be writing a blog post and I don't intend on doing that. I will say that I understand why a scientist would tell university students to avoid philosophy if possible. Academic philosophy as a whole seems to have a nasty tendency of legitimizing lines of thought that have long since been rendered unproductive and obsolete. That isn't to say I don't respect philosophy at all, because I think that philosophy has been tremendously helpful at times. I just think that it's too easy for some line of thought to define itself as a "philosophy" based on an appearance of rigour alone, and through this get special treatment over other lines of thought.
 

Ace Emerald

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I respect philosophy as a branch of thinking that opens us up to new questions about our world, humanity, and ourselves. But philosophers take this high-and-mighty approach to science and do stuff like claim scientists don't ask questions and portray scientists as singleminded, dogmatic, and repressive to thought. Which some individuals might be, but those are traits that any human can have (even philosophers) and it's not a defining trait of scientists, or a trait unique to scientists. Scientists ask questions literally all the time, the ask themselves how the world works, and they find answers. Real scientists understand these answers may be wrong, but those that oppose them say scientists mark down some sort of superficial answer and then just move on.

I have no respect for anyone propagating this view of science because not only is it completely unfounded, it prays on a public mistrust of science and encourages it. While there are definitely people that don't care for deeper meaning involved in science (plenty of them at my university) there aren't every scientist, and the popularity of this caricature of a scientist undermines the importance of science in our society and culture. It brings the human thought backwards, makes theories seem like something scientists dream up and accept totally, and is very frustrating to deal with for anyone who works in a science field. They make it seem like science is another passing religion that will get outdated, but the fact of the matter is science changes with the times. Individual thoughts become outdates, but the processes, methods, and rigor of science aren't going anywhere. Progress and evolution of thought is the entire history of humanity, anyone saying we should reject that needs to understand that we're going to progress as a species whether we like it or not.
 

Soul Fly

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That article is complete wannabe. Your worldview on philosophy shouldn't even be brought into question by something like that.

And Ace Emerald no rational philosopher will undermine or take a higher moral ground against the sciences, EVER (considering all sciences took root in classicism), any 'philosopher' who claims such is usually a theologist, a.k.a the people who go like "jesus hates abortions" and 'large hadron collider is a travesty against nature'.


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Philosophy and what you're referring to at-large is classical education which is centered around philosophy and rhetoric. (y'know shit people like Socrates and Plato set up?)

This is a question that I've wrestled with for two entire years (actually more), and initially I used to believe man has done the all the thinking for a really really long time that he needs to do and it's about time he moved the fuck on. Like he has his shit figured out.

In this pragmatic technology driven world investing in sciences and technology and commerce seems very natural and obvious. I mean a philosopher is hardly going to crack cold fusion and cure cancer or rescue the economy with his skill set is he? A world no longer needs a philosopher, a muser, a thinker... someone who ponders without the math and science to back it up.

Or that's what used to think.
Like legit.

I took towards the sciences in like my final phase of high school and was all geared to go into computer sciences or some shit. I even had the aptitude and the grades. Fast forward 2 years and I'm completing my first year in college as an English student, with my minor in Philosophy (considering shifting to East Asian studies), as far removed from my initial goal as it can be and I have no regrets.

Part of the reason was I hated the sciences, but a major part is that over these 2-3 years I have completely changed my viewpoint about these spheres of education. Like a complete overhaul.
I would LOOVE to write all about it and go and on but then I'd be like Theorymon-Mega with possible Smogon's longest tl;dr. Like the paradigm epiphany is just out of the world.

MAYBE I WILL (!) if people really show the curiosity to read such a tl;dr or I see one asshat too many dissing this field.

But for now I recommend this as MANDATORY VIEWING:


It is exceptionally relevant to what you're asking capefeather in particular. How is all this ancient shit relevant today.
 
My stance on philosophy and most humanities subjects is that they all discuss very important subjects. The problem tends to be that most people in philosophy, either students or professors, tend to be philosophy fans, rather than philosophers. That is, they stick to the gimmicks of the field e.g.: "How can you trust induction if induction is impossible?," "Socrates said _ in _." rather than come up with any individual thought. (Individual thought does not mean original thought, as it's very difficult to come up with something unique.) The video above is a perfect example of a philosophy fan.

I think philosophers are very important, and can ask and answer important questions with good support. I just think the field is heavily watered down by incontinents.
 
This is kind of a religious question in a way - for instance I could respond like the following

Philosophy is definitely wildly irrelevant to the modern world. A technologically advanced world is just about getting as much as you can out of life & creating the safest societies possible. With nothing left that we actually need to particularly build or explore, there is no point in putting our faith in any more gods. We did it, humanity won, we did everything we could ever need to do.

That is, however, obviously from an extremely specific point of view. And I am not even trying to conflate the two to some ridiculous extent, just a lack of philosophy and no need for religion would have to go pretty much fairly hand in hand to me. I do personally think that all of the needs philosophy ever fulfilled had entirely to do with fear and uncertainty, and that as a world we are basically entirely past that point. We are not to a point of having built some perfect utopia where everyone's health, housing, and food needs are met (which...all could be incredibly realistically met as far as I can imagine), so it is not like we are at the absolute end point. I definitely agree there are not many uncertain questions left. Like, incredibly large ones, "how do you control/make sense of entire economies", sure. All in all, the world has never been in a better place, so pragmatically speaking, it makes sense to claim philosophy is the exact least useful it has ever been.
 

Soul Fly

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billymills
Well the pertinent rule in every field is know the rules before attempting to break/challenge them so I don't really get what you mean by philosophy 'fans'. Sounds rather derogatory in connotation. Roundabout semantics (like you give an example about induction) are for people who want to show off and somehow put philosophy on this pedestal, or challenge the very fact that how we take so many things for granted, and it's universally believed to be true but we never think about it. By that essence every classicist ever to exist after the Greeks is a 'Philosophy fan'.
And this is why I don't get this obtuse idea about 'Philosophy fans v/s Philosophers' because it is an evolving field and is ALWAYS without exception based upon what the earlier guy said. Even the most modern vanguards like Freud, Camus, and Sartre etc based their notions on earlier stuff. (Original thought is a myth btw, idk what you mean by Individual thought). There'll always be people who'll always rote parrot stuff. And if I'm not wrong that's how every field works. Gravity was a series of mistakes and assumptions before Newton nailed it, even then he got schooled 2 centuries later by Einstein. By that logic anyone who isn't in a lab or some cutting edge googleplex project right now is a "Science fan" and not a "scientist".... what you're describing is a general problem plaguing all educational fields and not a problem pertinent to classical sciences in particular.

"The video above" is from a very rational guy who talks about what classical education has to offer in this modern age, neither does he put it on a pedestal nor expound on it, so I don't get you branding him as a 'philosophy fan' or whatever, assuming that connotation is negative in nature.

=====
EDIT:

This is kind of a religious question in a way - for instance I could respond like the following

Philosophy is definitely wildly irrelevant to the modern world. A technologically advanced world is just about getting as much as you can out of life & creating the safest societies possible. With nothing left that we actually need to particularly build or explore, there is no point in putting our faith in any more gods. We did it, humanity won, we did everything we could ever need to do....
(sic)
disclaimer: I get it you are speaking FOR philosophy but given your opening .....
You seem to be confusing Religion with Philosphy.
Religion =/= Philosophy.

That what you speak of here seems to be theology

In fact most philosophers (especially modern ones) were atheists, some older ones held some higher being in regard due to the sheer number of unexplained phenomenon but it was always speculative in nature and never 'faith'.... because philosophy is above all exercising your rational faculties, and the existence of God has no rational argument behind it, bar anecdotal/speculative....
 
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Soul Fly

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That arguably is only the problem solving aspect with definitive/near definitive solutions. In the Theoretical fields (where you have to substantiate uncharted territory, or give credence to some else's research/work) it's a whole different ballgame with a lot of frustration and headache. But yes the chief purpose of science is to resolve ambiguities agreed. But someone needs to conceptualize them first ;)

Classical education is more about wrapping your head around the intangible on the very existential level.
 

Aldaron

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^ I'll agree that it is easy to identify if YOU yourself are doing it properly or not, but I will argue that it is very difficult to identify if others are doing it properly or not :P

Criticism of various claims basically boils down to using experience to cast disbelief on the conclusions drawn from data, after which you have to get the resources to perform the experiments yourself, which is very difficult / time consuming / often limits you to out sourcing confirmation of disbelief

of course that is entirely a conversation about scientific experimental validity, not philosophy, so I'll stop there
 

Myzozoa

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So I came across a juvenile, fallacy-ridden article today that nonetheless got me thinking. Is philosophy still relevant to humanity and its pursuit of... whatever it's pursuing?
I mean this question kind of begs another question: 'what is it that humanity ought to pursue?' and 'what, IN FACT, is humanity pursuing right now?" is one part of philosophy: the ethics. 'The rest' of philosophy deals with clarifying the relationships between propositions. That is, "how does our knowledge of facts relate to what we ought to pursue" and even "how do we decide what is a fact". The scientific method (principles of falsifiability, etc) conceived by Popper, for example, came out of a definitely 'philosophical' discourse: analytic philosophy (frege, russell, quine, wittgenstein, carnap, etc).

If so, in what ways is it relevant, and in what ways do people believe it's relevant when it's not? I don't want to get too much into my personal opinions on the matter in this post, because I feel like when I do that, I might as well be writing a blog post and I don't intend on doing that. I will say that I understand why a scientist would tell university students to avoid philosophy if possible. Academic philosophy as a whole seems to have a nasty tendency of legitimizing lines of thought that have long since been rendered unproductive and obsolete. That isn't to say I don't respect philosophy at all, because I think that philosophy has been tremendously helpful at times. I just think that it's too easy for some line of thought to define itself as a "philosophy" based on an appearance of rigour alone, and through this get special treatment over other lines of thought.
I am biased, as someone who studies philosophy, but I think the practice of clarifying the relationship between propositions is a fundamental part of any discipline. Philosophy becomes 'dangerous' (useless/unproductive/obsolete) when it moves very far from an object of study. I study philosophy of pyschology and philosophy of education primarily, and I do have 'positive' critiques of real educational practices and procedures that are grounded in philosophy (mindfulness practices such as breathing exercises have been recently shown to reduce behavior problems significantly). I also use findings from psychology to discuss the philosophical notion of agency, which is a pre-condition in many ethical theories for responsibility. I think the most productive theories come out of looking at concrete situations and then building theory to explain those situations without taking those situations as necessary or given. There are sort of 2 parts: 1 part is explaining a concrete situation, the other part is asking 'is there some part of my understanding of this situation that could be biased by my subjectivity.' You need both explanation of objects and explanations about interpretation. I remain committed to the belief that one can understand differences in perception if they are careful.

Also the study of politics is a better target for criticism than philosophy, in terms of a debate on the utility of a field IMO.

EDIT:
Compared to philosophy, it is very easy to determine if someone is performing science properly: it's possible.
If the research is significant enough, people will attempt to replicate it.

This is as opposed to a field like philosophy, where I'm not really sure what a criticism would be. Perhaps it's not interesting enough. Perhaps its scope is too small, or too large? How do you distinguish quality philosophizing from poor philosophizing?
Perhaps by examining how completely a method can explain an object? For example, E.P. Thompson wrote The Making of the English Working Class by analyzing how associations among laborers in England led to their articulation of class identities. Other works start by taking class identities for granted, and then looking at how different classes associated during a given time period. The former method looks at how associations produce class identities, the latter takes class identities for granted and proceeds with an analysis of associations (in fact the latter method is quite common in statistical economics i would imagine: first define classes using income levels, then look at which direction money tends to go in interactions between classes.). There are different methods to explaining phenomena, to writing history, to telling a story. The best methods are those that yield the most complete account of phenomena , while also suggesting possible applications, in the form of changes to procedures, towards widely varying ends (utility, 'the good', and emancipation are examples of some suggested ends). So I don't understand what you mean: methods, or arguments, will be replicated if they are 'significant enough', whether in science or philosophy.

You may want to make your distinction between philosophy and science clearer, because I would think of history as philosophy, sociology as philosophy, International relations as philosophy. I say these are philosophy even though they have empirical ways of gathering information (like science) because the evidence in these disciplines requires more nuanced interpretation (than what would be needed to interpret a chemical reaction) to avoid fallacy, clarifying the relationships between propositions (philosophy) becomes a massive part of such discourses.

If you mean something else by philosophy (like ethics or 'the study of ends'), then I would find it difficult to argue against what you say. It seems that the good is pretty subjective, and that so far no account of morality has been satisfactory. I sort of cling to what Nietzsche imagined, which is something like 'the value of values must itself be assessed, and if we find that the promotion of a certain good turns out to in fact be bad, we ought to discard it'. I guess this sort of could be taken to say that we should be ever skeptical of morality. For example, people maybe used to say that slavery was good because the bible allowed it, and the bible was the word of god so it was the good. The practice of granting ethical authority to the bible was rightly called into question.
 
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Compared to philosophy, it is very easy to determine if someone is performing science properly: it's possible.
If the research is significant enough, people will attempt to replicate it.

This is as opposed to a field like philosophy, where I'm not really sure what a criticism would be. Perhaps it's not interesting enough. Perhaps its scope is too small, or too large? How do you distinguish quality philosophizing from poor philosophizing?
 
Kind of weird to say that you need to know "the rules" before attempting to break them in such an abstract field as philosophy. It's not as simple here as it is in science to say what a well read person needs to know to be able to present fleshed out arguments for his/her own ideas. For one thing, the definition of progress in the field is ludicrously vague. Progress in out understanding of gravity is easily measurable in the experimental world. We have statistics, the scientific method, and a wide acceptance of these methods. These let us test whether our equations and principles model the real world. Even something as abstract as a mathematical proof can be checked for consistency, and the fundamental assumptions that every working mathematician relies on are almost universally accepted. The fact that they're widely accepted and time tested doesn't necessarily make them right, as is debated in the fields of philosophy of math and science, but they certainly make convincing others in the field an easier task.

Progress in philosophy is much trickier. If we were to come up with a moral philosophy that lines up with our intuitions, an economic theory that lines up with our goals, or a satisfying definition of any abstract concept, the effect is subtler and often never implemented on any kind of grand scale (and this is ignoring the largely subjective nature of the exercise). People have widely varying ideas as to how to go about things, and that leads to a very interesting balance which is very difficult to change and measure. You can note influential and well constructed arguments, and indeed, it is useful for a budding philosopher to know many of these to better construct his/her own argument. However, what I don't like is the tendency for an argument to be drawn into a particular camp of arguments simply because it's similar, especially because a lot of these arguments are so old that the residue of an antiquated tradition or ideology is still soaked into part of them. I do see what billymillis is getting at, in that a lot of people will use other's ideas as a crutch rather than attempting to really interact with them, figuring out what they like and don't like about certain aspects of it, and forming their own solid structure. These people may not even be a majority, but they are wide enough to influence the public image of philosophy.

Philosophy, the understanding of logical principals, and the intellectual spirit to apply them to your life and actions is absolutely useful in this day and age. In a time of prosperity, we have room to think, we have the resources to do amazing things, and the problem comes in making a decision. How can we structure a society to maximize the progress towards the goals of it's constituents? How do our current goals mesh into goals of the society, and how can we determine these goals? I don't think it's useless to think about changing the status quo or think about ideas in a vacuum because the act of reasoning these things out creates a society which is culturally more able to handle problems, make quick decisions, and act on it's desires, even if it never ends up deviating far from the way it is now.
 
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Deck Knight

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Science attempts to answer the question of how. Science is a method more than a philosophy. Scientific information has a short half-life as new hypotheses are tested and theories are refined - it's a means to an end.
Religion attempts to answer the question of why. Religion can be seen as a kind of philosophy. The primary characteristic of religion is resistance to altering long-established dogma and social mores, because religion is about both proper means and proper ends.

They address different questions, but too many people wrap themselves up in pitting them as opposing forces because it's so much easier to ignore morals and ethics by assaulting the rationality of the person proposing said morals/ethics rather than wrestling with the moral/ethical implications themselves. On the flipside, it's easier to call people Godless heathens than it is to process and adapt to new information about the way the world functions. The former impulse is much more prevalent in today's society.

A fun philosophical exercise I enjoy is called "define your terms." It's very easy to lose sight of what you want to accomplish or what you want to say if you haven't seriously thought about the words you are using and the ultimate object of your communication or pursuit. Presented with conflicting information, if one is not clear on one's goal but clear only about their own good intentions, they may protect the latter at the expense of advancing toward the former.

Bonus example / tweak: The unmoved mover / first cause is a better philosophical basis for the existence of a God than the alternative view that nothingness gave rise to substance and, subsequent to that already mighty stretch, chaos gave rise to order - especially since all observed systems break down over time rather than become more resilient. I don't have enough faith to believe the laws of the universe as we understand them just decided one day to reverse themselves and trend towards order for a while.
 

Bughouse

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philosophy is a made up major to get more money out of college students
Such as my roommate.

Seriously, If you want to form opinions on philosophy as a field, live with a philosophy major. He will remind you he's a philosophy major constantly and inform you of *fascinating* concepts daily. So incredibly annoying. As little value as I gave philosophy before this year, I think it's even more worthless now.

Also, philosophers and those who study philosophy are kind of like Pokemon, in that they all have different types, some of which have effective arguments against one philosophy but weak ones against a different philosophy.

My roommate would be best described as Nietzsche/Kant, easily identified by his movepool, which includes Übermensch and Moral Imperative.
 

xenu

Banned deucer.
Academic philosophy as a whole seems to have a nasty tendency of legitimizing lines of thought that have long since been rendered unproductive and obsolete.
the notion of thought having to be somehow "productive" is entirely a STEM notion. the act of thought is an exercise in and of itself and imo deserves to be studied even if it doesn't lead to some arbitrarily-defined "scientific progress".

edit: just listened to the attached podcast and holy SHIT what a philistine, fuck him for demoting pluto

My roommate would be best described as Nietzsche/Kant, easily identified by his movepool, which includes Übermensch and Moral Imperative.
nice wikipedia skills
 
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So I came across a juvenile, fallacy-ridden article today that nonetheless got me thinking. Is philosophy still relevant to humanity and its pursuit of... whatever it's pursuing? If so, in what ways is it relevant, and in what ways do people believe it's relevant when it's not? I don't want to get too much into my personal opinions on the matter in this post, because I feel like when I do that, I might as well be writing a blog post and I don't intend on doing that. I will say that I understand why a scientist would tell university students to avoid philosophy if possible. Academic philosophy as a whole seems to have a nasty tendency of legitimizing lines of thought that have long since been rendered unproductive and obsolete. That isn't to say I don't respect philosophy at all, because I think that philosophy has been tremendously helpful at times. I just think that it's too easy for some line of thought to define itself as a "philosophy" based on an appearance of rigour alone, and through this get special treatment over other lines of thought.
Well I don't really know the term of philosophy very well but looking it up It actually fits me very well. I personally live by my thoughts of what is truth and lie by my own moralities. I think about the world and the people on it, why humans exist, how does the world work etc. I don't like going by science theory's and I disapprove of psychology and other forms of science involving the way people behave etc. because to me, It doesn't sit well with my mind to believe what most sociologist, physiologists, Astronomers etc.say about the world, outside of earth and why people act the way they do. It makes more sense to me that I stick to what I personally believe that I know.

Being an individual relativist and someone can explain why I said the above.

To sum it up, I believe there is more to philosophy then what people pose it to be.

(Sorry for the messy paragraph)
 
Philosophy shouldn't be a stand-alone study, but yes, for reasons readily apparent to anyone with a functioning brain, philosophy remains relevant.
 

v

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when asked to who developed the concept of a moral imperative, immanuel's only response was "i, kant"
 

Tangerine

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I think Philosophy is inherently more dangerous than most other fields. I think the biggest reason behind that is because usually every philosopher you read should affect how you view the world, so as a field I think it has the biggest effect on you as a person. I don't think it's ever a bad thing to study the classics (in fact, it's a great thing), but I do think people should be more careful when dealing with the more modern (< 50 years) developments, because a lot of it is in any field tends to be nonsense that we just haven't discovered it's nonsense yet. With that said I don't think it's also fair to Philosophy to judge it based on selected modern academic developments either. What is legitimate or not is not decided by your peers, it is defined by time and people looking back, so yes you might be worried about people giving people benefit of the doubt now, but don't really worry about that -- chances are people are going to forget about it in a few years. Every field has something like this.
 
Many people dont understand what philosophy is, it is the measuring tool to judge worth.
I don't know about that. For one thing, the question of what worth even is isn't clear under this definition and definitely lies in the realm of philosophy. I'd say that definition is more important to philosophy than the act of measuring it in other agents and objects. And that's ignoring context ("value" in the moral sense? Like the fact that i have to respect you as a rational agent? Or in the decision theoretic sense of how useful an action or goal is to human/self progression. Straight up utility, as in maximizing happiness?) and just about every other branch of philosophy out there that doesn't talk about valuation.
 

Jorgen

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I haven't actually seen NDT's position directly, but all the analysis I've seen of this whole kerfuffle seems to suggest that his position has been sensationalized to shit, although he definitely wasn't exactly tactful about seeming to disregard an entire field of study.

That said, it's not totally surprising for him to hold some disdain for philosophy. As a science advocate, a lot of his rhetoric comes down to saying how useful science is to making cool technology to benefit society. This is a really good way to justify public funding for a field, but really shitty and perfunctory when applied as the sole criterion for a worthwhile human pursuit.

Also, as a science man, he realizes that trying to understand how the external world works from first principles without relying on empirical knowledge is kind of impossible. Science dudes are notorious for taking that and adopting a strongly empirical theory of knowledge (thereby leading to disdain of "soft" fields), failing to see or care about the inconsistency wherein stating "all meaningful knowledge requires verification through observation" itself is an a priori assumption. This actually can manifest itself in pretty undesirable ways, for example I've known empiricist scientists who go full retard and unabashedly maintain that thinking about ethical considerations is a waste of time. This attitude can also manifest in overly hasty dismissal of modeling work, actually fostering ignorance within one's own scientific field.
 
I don't know about that. For one thing, the question of what worth even is isn't clear under this definition and definitely lies in the realm of philosophy. I'd say that definition is more important to philosophy than the act of measuring it in other agents and objects. And that's ignoring context ("value" in the moral sense? Like the fact that i have to respect you as a rational agent? Or in the decision theoretic sense of how useful an action or goal is to human/self progression. Straight up utility, as in maximizing happiness?) and just about every other branch of philosophy out there that doesn't talk about valuation.
Well I base my assesment on nihilism, the death of ideas and principles, the death of all philosophy, it all comes down to giving value.
 

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