Mega Mawile has no solid counters because it can choose between two prominent movesets. But that is the case for many others that can dedicate moveslots to would-be counters. Mega Mawile is fairly easy to deal with if you can maintain momentum to prevent a switch in or play around its set a little. This is the case in my experience but I run multiple mons that can harm it on a bulky offensive team. It becomes far less effective if you can nab it with a burn and there are a variety of pokes that run powerful fire and ground attacks that will outspeed mawile and can help you deal with it as long as you can absorb a single suckerpunch. Getting pokes in a position to land these attacks doesn't seem to take a whole lot of creativity. I admit it is quite harmful to winning to usually have to take a powerful move or sacrifice a mon when dealing with Mega Mawile. Also, predicting the SP can land you free turns to set rocks, or sneak in a sub, burn, boost or heal. Another aspeect that makes Mawile easier to deal with is that it won't be capable of doing a lot of switching because of its below average bulk. It can only run 4 moves so some thoughtful team building should consider the threat and deal with it accordingly. The fact that there are no perfect counters is not a good argument to ban it. Perhaps my opinion will change after I have more experience using it or after I use other teams more often that do not deal with it so easily but as of now I will be voting against a ban if I have the time to acquire reqs for this suspect test.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]
- Thread starter Nachos
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I've always used Rotom-H or Mega Gyarados as checks to the standard Mega Mawile but after hearing about this dreaded SubFocus that I have luckily not yet encountered, I'm not really sure how one would deal with it after it has set up a sub. The only way for me would be to sacrifice a pokemon to break the sub and then switch in something than can OHKO or burn the beast. But even then my opponent can just simply switch the Mawile out and laugh at my futile attempt to defeat it. I'm certainly not going to start running something weird like Cofagrigus or Arcanine (even if I love Cofagrigus) just to deal with one pokemon in the entire OU metagame.
I think you also forgot how many people actually participated in that test compared to how many people actually play the game. In case you don't know, there were only 93 people that participated (i.e. got reqs and voted) in the last suspect test, and probably some more that laddered but didn't make reqs. That's a really goddamn small sample size of the people actually involved in playing the game, which is many thousands of people, and the people that weren't involved in testing have not had the time to adjust to the ban that was implemented three days ago. Unless you consider those 93 people to be the only ones that play the Smogon singles metagame?
Simply put, this test was conducted much too soon, and it needed to be spaced apart from the previous one better. Actually, most of the suspect tests this gen needed to be better spaced apart.
Just wanted to point out that defensive arcanine is a good set (in UU at least) and does have an analysis. Does it do very well in OU? I'm not disagreeing with you there, and showing how arcanine's pretty much the only thing able to "counter" m-maw is like how sableye was pretty much the only thing able to counter m-khan -- sure, they can do it, but only having one counter is pretty damn unhealthy. But I don't think any discussion about arcanine at all should be outright banned.
also pls respond to my PM, I was having connection problems last night
That's usually what ends up happening. You can either sac the mon that's in, or switch out. Once you sac your mon that's in, all Mawile has to do is switch out and repeat the terror.
If you switch and mispredict the move Mawile uses on the switch, you more often then not end up with a crippled mon (within sucker punch range). And Mawile is still behind the sub. There's only a few mons who can reliably switch into Mawile behind a sub: Venusaur, Amoonguss, Gengar + a few others.
Often your best chance is to stack intimidates on it. Like Lando-T, but you have to tank play rough + sucker punch before you can remove its sub. And poor old Lando can usually only perform that trick once.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Whether it's good in UU or not is largely irrelevant here. It's a fact that Arcanine is not viable in OU and is largely outclassed by every other fire type both offensively and defensively. The only thing that it does better than Heatran is countering Mawile. Arcanine is a subpar Pokémon in OU and that's why it should not be discussed into an OU metagame thread.
And I'll answer to your PM as soon as possible.
About time this suspect came around. I don't think I need to explain every detail of why MegaMaw is broken but there is a few things I would like to address. The first is that it has little to no trouble running through almost every playstyle due to the fact that it is able to create free turns for itself by virtue of its incredible power. Basically, should this monster get 1 free switch into something it threatens, you face the very real risk of losing straight up. This is very different to other set up sweepers like CharX or BD Azu who, while able to sweep well enough, run into various issues and require much more specific conditions to actually sweep. With Mega Mawile, all you need to do is spam Play Rough + Sucker Punch and you're going to do serious damage to the opponents team. This isn't even mentioning the horrid 50/50s, which, unlike Aegislash's KS shenanigans, always pose a situation in which if you guess wrong, something gets fucked up.
The other point I have seen anti-ban people throw around is "It doesnt centralise the meta a lot". In what universe do you live in? If you're team does not have a mon that resists Sucker Punch and can KO back, you will always lose against Mawile, no "play around with smart plays". Defensive and Balanced teams need Mega Venu or Heatran to have a chance, and they are both threatened by simple alterations to the move set. Offensive teams need any of Lando-T, Offensive T-Tar, MegaDos, Keldeo or Terrakion to not be wrecked, and they have to sac a mon to bring all of these in safely anyway. Not to mention that very few of these can OHKO a 100% Mawile, meaning Mawile doesnt even need to rely on Sucker Punch due to its godly typing, forcing many mons to run HP Fire to actually beat it (Mega Venu).
This thing is so mindlessly easy to use successfully it's not funny, I just hope the council decides to ban it outright so we can play a more balanced tier, not sure why Aegi was before this but whatever.
BAN
also MuhFugginMoose I completely agree with you about the bandwagon issue in suspect tests, even though we may disagree on MegaMaw, people are so easily swayed to copy tournament players just so they might one day get a pat on the back for it.
The other point I have seen anti-ban people throw around is "It doesnt centralise the meta a lot". In what universe do you live in? If you're team does not have a mon that resists Sucker Punch and can KO back, you will always lose against Mawile, no "play around with smart plays". Defensive and Balanced teams need Mega Venu or Heatran to have a chance, and they are both threatened by simple alterations to the move set. Offensive teams need any of Lando-T, Offensive T-Tar, MegaDos, Keldeo or Terrakion to not be wrecked, and they have to sac a mon to bring all of these in safely anyway. Not to mention that very few of these can OHKO a 100% Mawile, meaning Mawile doesnt even need to rely on Sucker Punch due to its godly typing, forcing many mons to run HP Fire to actually beat it (Mega Venu).
This thing is so mindlessly easy to use successfully it's not funny, I just hope the council decides to ban it outright so we can play a more balanced tier, not sure why Aegi was before this but whatever.
BAN
also MuhFugginMoose I completely agree with you about the bandwagon issue in suspect tests, even though we may disagree on MegaMaw, people are so easily swayed to copy tournament players just so they might one day get a pat on the back for it.
do not ban mawile its power is broken even when burned lol. if we ban mawile, charizard must go, and if charizard goes we must insta ban pinsir its going to get to the point that all the megas will be banned because a pokemon always takes its place.
honestly i dont think anything should be banned from OU right now, its a bit fast but i think this is as good as its going to get. i would like to ban kings shield and bring back aegislash i think we as a community need to try and keep pokemon in their respected tiers if we can. i hope the people who read this understand where im coming from and atleast try to suspect aegislash without kings shield. we all know kings shield is why its good so just put it in OU without kings shield. of course if its not good at all put it in UU.
example it will be only allowed into a lower tier without kings shield and Uber with it. i mean come on, can we try to spice things up and give it a chance? blaziken without speed boost we really cant do that? its the same thing as banning mawilite you are taking the part of the pokemon that is too strong for lower tiers. i really love smogon but id like to see an effort to keep pokemon from being banned instead of pulling an aegislash 50/50 yes or no. smogon is made up of many people, we are a community, we all should have a say not just a couple of dudes that say this pokemon is too strong so we are going to suspect it(and i understand why such pokemon are being suspected) with whoever makes it official you understand? why not do a proper suspect test for pokemon like aegislash and use it with kings shield and without kings shield to get a proper analysis.
you cannot say thats a waste of time because we know it will be a horrible pokemon and put in RU or something but there are still way worse pokemon which is why im making this comment. 6th gen came out and nerfed all weather that was the solution to the abuse of weather that dominated OU in 5th gen they took away the problem not the whole thing. i hope we can all do this in the near future and suspect certain pokemon without their niche so we will have more options while team building without the issue where something is broken and makes it fun to mess around making interesting teams and sets.
im not writing this because im a aegislash or blaziken fanboy i know there are some pokemon that are just too strong in general to be in OU like kyogre mewtwo groudon giratina and mewtwo but there are some that can get a bone and be brought back like genesect it was back for a little but because of how it could just be splashed into any team without much to worry about was too strong. if you love pokemon like i do i know you will agree. thank you guys for reading this ive been on smogon for about 3 or 4 years and love the pokemon community so please do not think i am angry or anything i just would like for all of us to consider what i am saying since more pokemon gives a more fun experience.
honestly i dont think anything should be banned from OU right now, its a bit fast but i think this is as good as its going to get. i would like to ban kings shield and bring back aegislash i think we as a community need to try and keep pokemon in their respected tiers if we can. i hope the people who read this understand where im coming from and atleast try to suspect aegislash without kings shield. we all know kings shield is why its good so just put it in OU without kings shield. of course if its not good at all put it in UU.
example it will be only allowed into a lower tier without kings shield and Uber with it. i mean come on, can we try to spice things up and give it a chance? blaziken without speed boost we really cant do that? its the same thing as banning mawilite you are taking the part of the pokemon that is too strong for lower tiers. i really love smogon but id like to see an effort to keep pokemon from being banned instead of pulling an aegislash 50/50 yes or no. smogon is made up of many people, we are a community, we all should have a say not just a couple of dudes that say this pokemon is too strong so we are going to suspect it(and i understand why such pokemon are being suspected) with whoever makes it official you understand? why not do a proper suspect test for pokemon like aegislash and use it with kings shield and without kings shield to get a proper analysis.
you cannot say thats a waste of time because we know it will be a horrible pokemon and put in RU or something but there are still way worse pokemon which is why im making this comment. 6th gen came out and nerfed all weather that was the solution to the abuse of weather that dominated OU in 5th gen they took away the problem not the whole thing. i hope we can all do this in the near future and suspect certain pokemon without their niche so we will have more options while team building without the issue where something is broken and makes it fun to mess around making interesting teams and sets.
im not writing this because im a aegislash or blaziken fanboy i know there are some pokemon that are just too strong in general to be in OU like kyogre mewtwo groudon giratina and mewtwo but there are some that can get a bone and be brought back like genesect it was back for a little but because of how it could just be splashed into any team without much to worry about was too strong. if you love pokemon like i do i know you will agree. thank you guys for reading this ive been on smogon for about 3 or 4 years and love the pokemon community so please do not think i am angry or anything i just would like for all of us to consider what i am saying since more pokemon gives a more fun experience.
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As a frequent user of Mega Mawile myself, i've found that Mawile is fairly vulnerable if you already have out a Pokemon that can prey on Mawile's Steel type weakness. Mawile also has nothing going for it once it's hit with a burn, and if your opponent has their own intimidate user and cuts it's attack, you may as well use it as cannon fodder.
It's rather poor speed means it's reliant on Sucker Punch to get the jump on faster Pokemon, but it's easy enough to trick a Mega Mawile into mistiming a sucker punch, allowing you to spend multiple turns setting up. Then after a few turns they'll probably be forced/chance a play Rough, in which you eradicate it with a Earthquake or a Fire move of some description (which are both quite prominent types in OU as far as i see). Even if you don't kill it, it's poor bulk means it's weak to priority, so you'll have probably worn it down on the first mon, and could easily finish it off with a priority move or another next turn. Essentially, Mawile is only a viable threat if you give it a turn to set up. The first turn it has to lay a sub or swords dance or else it won't be powerful enough for a KO and will get killed itself.
If we start banning Megas due to the fact they can easily OHKO other pokemon and have little checks, we'll have to start moving on to pretty much every Mega in the game because they are all OP. Mega Char Y for example, outspeeds mostly everything on the same bracket and i have never seen a battle where its sun boosted flamethrower hasn't been a OHKO unless against a Water type.
Also, it would be a shame to see a pokemon that was essentially useless pre Gen 6 be thrown back down into the abyss because the only thing that makes it viable in the Metagame is banned. If we keep banning stuff from Gen 6 we're going to be left with nothing but Gen 5 with some new items.
It's rather poor speed means it's reliant on Sucker Punch to get the jump on faster Pokemon, but it's easy enough to trick a Mega Mawile into mistiming a sucker punch, allowing you to spend multiple turns setting up. Then after a few turns they'll probably be forced/chance a play Rough, in which you eradicate it with a Earthquake or a Fire move of some description (which are both quite prominent types in OU as far as i see). Even if you don't kill it, it's poor bulk means it's weak to priority, so you'll have probably worn it down on the first mon, and could easily finish it off with a priority move or another next turn. Essentially, Mawile is only a viable threat if you give it a turn to set up. The first turn it has to lay a sub or swords dance or else it won't be powerful enough for a KO and will get killed itself.
If we start banning Megas due to the fact they can easily OHKO other pokemon and have little checks, we'll have to start moving on to pretty much every Mega in the game because they are all OP. Mega Char Y for example, outspeeds mostly everything on the same bracket and i have never seen a battle where its sun boosted flamethrower hasn't been a OHKO unless against a Water type.
Also, it would be a shame to see a pokemon that was essentially useless pre Gen 6 be thrown back down into the abyss because the only thing that makes it viable in the Metagame is banned. If we keep banning stuff from Gen 6 we're going to be left with nothing but Gen 5 with some new items.
Its pretty obvious that pinsir is nowhere near as good as mawile or zard x, so saying a slippery slope is going to happen is fallacious. Banning mawile isn't going to result in everything that can hit hard being banned. Mawile is just really easy to use and has a very large payoff for very minimal investment or effort required, to the point where it becomes pretty brainless, much like genesect was. That's pretty good grounds to be suspicious about whether or not it should be allowed in ou, to be frank.
no counters =/= broken. That's right! In fact Mega Mawile is troubled a bit more by certain stall mons than mega heracross is. However, this alone isn't a problem. Mawile still puts in a lot of work vs. offense because its sucker punch OHKO's half of them and a free sub guarantee's a team member's demise. Now when a pokemon destroys stall AND its very effective vs. offense, now that's a problem.
Yes there are checks, but way too few. First, take bisharp off that list. It doesn't have a neutrally effective move. Don't underestimate Mega Mawile's bulk; if its at full then its not dying to moves like non-stab boosted EQs. Pokemon like lucario, mega gyarados, terrakion, and dragonite fail to OHKO, and Mega Mawile ohko's in return. That just leaves breloom and keldeo on your list.
Better checks are will-o-wispers. Anyway, once any checks are removed, then mmawile can sweep. Its not perfect, but mega mawile definitely puts work in vs. offense. And the combination of destroying defense and putting work into offense is what makes it bannable.
11 pages, a lot to read...
I didn't read everything yet, so I might repeat things which have already been said.
Mega-Mawile is probably the most powerful Pokemon in the meta right now. The sheer power of its play rough and access to great coverage moves (especially Fire Fang and Focus-Punch) makes this thing not only difficult to predict (since you don't loose really anything by changing its set) it lets her get a free kill for not prepared teams. Nothing new, but every Pokemon has its check. Here comes the biggest problem, because they are not reliable. It can swordsdance on the switch to Landorus-T, survive an Earthquake and kill it with Play Rough (some people are even using Stealth Rock predicting the Sucker Punch leading to a free kill for Mawile). Weezing, Arcanine and defensive Charizard Y are probably the only ones who can safely counter it.
But because this is a generation of checks, not counters, this isn't a reason enough to ban it. Despite having the greatest power in Pokemon it is also very frail. Facing Mawile seems like a nightmare, but using it yourself makes you realize that it is not THAT easy. Even resisted special attacks do way too much damage, neutral could mean an instant death. It can only switch in perfectly if something dies or in resisted physical attacks. That said, it needs more team support than people think. Prediction and finding the right moment for Mawile is very important if you use it. Saying it gets always a kill is reason enough to ban it is stupid, because Mega-Banette with Destiny Bond can do that too.
Another argument (which was probably mentioned already) is that it causes 50/50 with Sucker Punch and Sub/SD. Pokemon is still, and will always be FULL OF 50/50! I hope we can finally drop the 50/50 argument in the suspect tests since it seems for many people a good reason to ban Pokemon. I talked about this a lot in the last suspect, and i don't want to repeat myself in this case.
Right now I am for banning Mega-Mawile. The reason for me is not its huge power (pun intended). It is more similar to the reason Deoxys-S was banned (only talking about the LO-set right now). While it can not sweep entire teams by itself without team support, it can EASILY clean the way for other Pokemon to sweep. Need something to lure in and kill Heatran? Mega-Mawile can do the job. You have a non-mega set-up sweeper that doesn't like Skarmory or Quagsire? Mega-Mawile is your girl.
You can do the same trick even the other way round: You want to use SD-Mawile and need something to remove Heatran? Choose a sweeper that can lure in Heatran.
Lure sets are not broken either, the problem here is: These "lure"-sets of Mega-Mawile are too good on their own. It is not something like Head Smash on Aegislash which kills himself in the process. It can kill the counter and can proceed to kill more making the path clear for other sweepers without making it overall inferior. THIS is the main reason I think Mega-Mawile is broken and deserves to be banned.
I didn't read everything yet, so I might repeat things which have already been said.
Mega-Mawile is probably the most powerful Pokemon in the meta right now. The sheer power of its play rough and access to great coverage moves (especially Fire Fang and Focus-Punch) makes this thing not only difficult to predict (since you don't loose really anything by changing its set) it lets her get a free kill for not prepared teams. Nothing new, but every Pokemon has its check. Here comes the biggest problem, because they are not reliable. It can swordsdance on the switch to Landorus-T, survive an Earthquake and kill it with Play Rough (some people are even using Stealth Rock predicting the Sucker Punch leading to a free kill for Mawile). Weezing, Arcanine and defensive Charizard Y are probably the only ones who can safely counter it.
But because this is a generation of checks, not counters, this isn't a reason enough to ban it. Despite having the greatest power in Pokemon it is also very frail. Facing Mawile seems like a nightmare, but using it yourself makes you realize that it is not THAT easy. Even resisted special attacks do way too much damage, neutral could mean an instant death. It can only switch in perfectly if something dies or in resisted physical attacks. That said, it needs more team support than people think. Prediction and finding the right moment for Mawile is very important if you use it. Saying it gets always a kill is reason enough to ban it is stupid, because Mega-Banette with Destiny Bond can do that too.
Another argument (which was probably mentioned already) is that it causes 50/50 with Sucker Punch and Sub/SD. Pokemon is still, and will always be FULL OF 50/50! I hope we can finally drop the 50/50 argument in the suspect tests since it seems for many people a good reason to ban Pokemon. I talked about this a lot in the last suspect, and i don't want to repeat myself in this case.
Right now I am for banning Mega-Mawile. The reason for me is not its huge power (pun intended). It is more similar to the reason Deoxys-S was banned (only talking about the LO-set right now). While it can not sweep entire teams by itself without team support, it can EASILY clean the way for other Pokemon to sweep. Need something to lure in and kill Heatran? Mega-Mawile can do the job. You have a non-mega set-up sweeper that doesn't like Skarmory or Quagsire? Mega-Mawile is your girl.
You can do the same trick even the other way round: You want to use SD-Mawile and need something to remove Heatran? Choose a sweeper that can lure in Heatran.
Lure sets are not broken either, the problem here is: These "lure"-sets of Mega-Mawile are too good on their own. It is not something like Head Smash on Aegislash which kills himself in the process. It can kill the counter and can proceed to kill more making the path clear for other sweepers without making it overall inferior. THIS is the main reason I think Mega-Mawile is broken and deserves to be banned.
mawile hits like a truck and is best used when its threat are gone, or a chance to setup a sub i personaly use substitute/focus punch/play rough/sucker punch and it hits resists hard however as earthquake is very popular mawile can only take on things without strong attacks and only if they can take one sucker punch yeah you can catch them on the switch but that can be any pokemon in the hands of a good player. i feel its based on the set it runs weather or not certain pokemon can handle it.
Aight I feel like this suspect test is seriously obvious and this thread is gonna die kinda quickly given that moderators delete the posts that bring us all in a loop, so lets just address the best anti-ban argument here: No counters =/= broken.
Yes, gen 5 hydreigon, mega heracross, and mega mawile, along with a few others, are pokemon that hold the really nice title of being uncounterable. This is in part due to their movepool or sheer power, or perhaps a combination of the two (mega mawile's case). But what separates mega heracross from something like mega mawile? Essentially, your performance against offense. The moment a stallbreaker performs well against offense, we tend to have a big problem.
So why can mega mawile perform well against offense? Sucker Punch.
If mega mawile did not learn sucker punch, it would just be easy as hell to revenge kill and we'd all be happy; it's really that simple. Priority is mainly what makes mega mawile so good against offense. Just imagine giving Mega Heracross extremespeed or some shit, I can gaurantee you that hera would then be the next suspect because its a wallbreaker that can't be revenge killed.
When you can't be revenge killed, offense can't just threaten you out and just sweep past you later or something. This is what separates mega mawile from mons like mega hera and gen 5 hydreigon.
Yes, gen 5 hydreigon, mega heracross, and mega mawile, along with a few others, are pokemon that hold the really nice title of being uncounterable. This is in part due to their movepool or sheer power, or perhaps a combination of the two (mega mawile's case). But what separates mega heracross from something like mega mawile? Essentially, your performance against offense. The moment a stallbreaker performs well against offense, we tend to have a big problem.
So why can mega mawile perform well against offense? Sucker Punch.
If mega mawile did not learn sucker punch, it would just be easy as hell to revenge kill and we'd all be happy; it's really that simple. Priority is mainly what makes mega mawile so good against offense. Just imagine giving Mega Heracross extremespeed or some shit, I can gaurantee you that hera would then be the next suspect because its a wallbreaker that can't be revenge killed.
When you can't be revenge killed, offense can't just threaten you out and just sweep past you later or something. This is what separates mega mawile from mons like mega hera and gen 5 hydreigon.
Sucker Punch isn't the only reason it's so good against offence. It's also good against offence because of it's fantastic typing and good physical bulk, which allows it to come in very easily and force the opponent to have a very rough time switching anything in. As already said, it is very hard for offence to switch into it, as something at this point is going to take a shit ton of damage/die/Mega Mawile gets a free SD or Sub. Sucker Punch sure does help though.
Consider that everyone and their mother can outspeed M-Mawile and its uninvested 50 speed. Also, 50/125/95 is far from a respectable bulk (although fairly decent at 252/0/4), meaning that the strong hitters from OU can dish a hit powerful enough to KO. Top threats like Charizard (both megas), Landorus (both Incarnate and Therian) and even Keldeo can take a hit from Sucker Punch and KO back (Keldeo need a layer of spikes to sure-fire ko, or 50% without).
Mawile is surely a force to be reckoned, but is definitely not broken.
I'll just leave these calcs here to those who don't believe me
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 228-268 (64.9 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 189-223 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Talonflame and its 120BP+STAB priority is not broken (hint: it's not), then Mega Mawile isn't either.
Mawile is surely a force to be reckoned, but is definitely not broken.
I'll just leave these calcs here to those who don't believe me
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 228-268 (64.9 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 189-223 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Talonflame and its 120BP+STAB priority is not broken (hint: it's not), then Mega Mawile isn't either.
So maybe you can check Mega Mawile because it's slow. But does that mean it can't switch in on a Pokemon due to it's fantastic typing and force a very hard switch in that is going to nearly always negativity effect the opponent? No. Does it need to be fast to break stall? No. Speed doesn't effect that at all, so I don't know why people bring this up.
Also lol Sharp Beak Talon.
Did some calcs, this thing still 2HKOs physically defensive stuff left and right even when burned if its a Swords Dance set, and that's even if the opponent isn't weak to it.
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-206 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 425-501 (110.1 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
And so on. And this isn't even exploring different offensive counters, and all of Mawile's different offensive options. I think that between being able to destroy defensive AND offensive counters, even while burned, and having a diverse movepool to do so, MegaMaw needs to be banned.
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-206 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 425-501 (110.1 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
And so on. And this isn't even exploring different offensive counters, and all of Mawile's different offensive options. I think that between being able to destroy defensive AND offensive counters, even while burned, and having a diverse movepool to do so, MegaMaw needs to be banned.
I have no idea why in the world you're comparing Talonflame to Mega Mawile. If you're going to be going by the logic that it's as powerful as the best revenge killer in OU, then you also have to factor in that Mega Mawile has far better typing defensively for taking hits, and a pretty good Sp.Defense stat, along with Intimidate pre-evolution.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'll say it again, the sheer amount of power Mega Mawile packs makes it unrealistic for players to keep checks for it. Expecting me to keep my Dark Resistances healthy when there are already so many threats in OU is ridiculous.
Surely while Mawile is burned Skarmory and Venusaur can stall it out with Roost and Synthesis? Especially is Mawile needs to set up subs to use Focus punch on Skarmory.
Am I the only one that doesn't have much trouble with Mega Mawile's? They are highly predictable with their stock move-sets, and slow speed. They can't just freely switch in on offensive teams either since Earthquake is everywhere. And the only thing Mawile is going to do if it switches into an Earthquake is be over half dead and mostly useless with its abysmal speed. It will only be able to spam Sucker Punch till it dies, and Sucker Punch isn't OHKOing anything other than Ghost or Psychic types. Yeah, it might be able to screw over stall, but Gliscor even with uninvested attack 2HKO's most usage Mawile's with EQ.
Also, I expect a lot more people complaining about all these other Pokes now that Aegislash is gone. The can of worms has been opened now, folks. :/
Also, I expect a lot more people complaining about all these other Pokes now that Aegislash is gone. The can of worms has been opened now, folks. :/
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Against stall, there's also a good chance they'll have a Quagsire for their bulky water + unaware mon as well, so once Maw is burned, it really is game over for it. Stall has been forced to properly adapt to Mawile as a high priority so it actually handles it reasonably well now considering how powerful it is.
That said, the sad thing is that the game pretty much revolves around supporting your Mawile counter by keeping it healthy and since the only 100% safe counters to Mawile are fire types which are weak to SR, you need to keep hazards off the field pretty much at all times as well, which is a concept that can be preyed upon by your opponent. Offense probably has even more trouble with it imo since they pretty much have no safe switch-ins at all and when it's at +2, Sucker just tears things apart. Offense usually has just 1 Sucker resist (normally Keldeo) and once that gets worn down a little or eliminated, Mawile becomes truly devastating as at that point it's extremely difficult to revenge.
The fact is, the meta is kind of revolving around Mawile right now, because literally all playstyles, offense, balance and stall, need to play extremely carefully when up against one and it's arguably the number 1 consideration you have to take into account when building a team. If you're team is Mawile weak for example, you can almost kiss yourself goodbye at preview if your opponent has one and uses it properly.
That said, the sad thing is that the game pretty much revolves around supporting your Mawile counter by keeping it healthy and since the only 100% safe counters to Mawile are fire types which are weak to SR, you need to keep hazards off the field pretty much at all times as well, which is a concept that can be preyed upon by your opponent. Offense probably has even more trouble with it imo since they pretty much have no safe switch-ins at all and when it's at +2, Sucker just tears things apart. Offense usually has just 1 Sucker resist (normally Keldeo) and once that gets worn down a little or eliminated, Mawile becomes truly devastating as at that point it's extremely difficult to revenge.
The fact is, the meta is kind of revolving around Mawile right now, because literally all playstyles, offense, balance and stall, need to play extremely carefully when up against one and it's arguably the number 1 consideration you have to take into account when building a team. If you're team is Mawile weak for example, you can almost kiss yourself goodbye at preview if your opponent has one and uses it properly.
(Assuming Mawile is at +2 burned) If Skarmory roosts, it dies, since it loses its Flying typing. Venusaur can definitely stall it out, though.
The talonflame comparison is flawed because Mawile's suspectworthiness is from more than just it's power. It's typing, pre-mevo ability, power and priority combine, to make a pokemon that's a lot easier to bring in, and a lot harder to stop (than talonflame).
And it dosen't care about being outsped with a +2 sucker punch or a sub.
True, it is an understatement. But the fact of the matter is that Mega-Mawile is being suspect-testing for, apparently, lacking a "perfect counter".
I'm seeing a lot of calculations about very specific Pokemon, but not much in the way of considering other OU Pokemon that are faster, or have Prankster, and have access to Taunt - which prevents the use of Swords Dance and Substitute.
Earthquake/Earth Power and Flare Blitz/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Overheat normally can take out Mega-Mawile easily - unless 252 EVs are invested in Special Defense, I suppose, but that isn't done as far as I know; I've witnessed this first hand.
I'm seeing a lot of calculations about very specific Pokemon, but not much in the way of considering other OU Pokemon that are faster, or have Prankster, and have access to Taunt - which prevents the use of Swords Dance and Substitute.
Earthquake/Earth Power and Flare Blitz/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Overheat normally can take out Mega-Mawile easily - unless 252 EVs are invested in Special Defense, I suppose, but that isn't done as far as I know; I've witnessed this first hand.
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imho it shouldn't really get banned. It's subpar HP and Speed stats really hold Mega-Mawile back from being a complete powerhouse. The power creep in OU will still be tangible even without these two jaws of death creeping around (Mega-Heracross has 185 base Attack, Mega-Medicham rampages through the metagame with 249 base Attack after Huge Power - hello?) and it doesn't really fare good against Dark- resisting revenge killers:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 280-330 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has already been said that it gets crippled by status conditions and the sub set was brought into the argument - well you can run Substitute on basically everything in the game to prevent a burn. And about the bulk factor, well it's really not that resilient when not Mega-evolved.
It of course is a threat, but what isn't in today's metagame?
(And just because:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 393-463 (129.2 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 280-330 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has already been said that it gets crippled by status conditions and the sub set was brought into the argument - well you can run Substitute on basically everything in the game to prevent a burn. And about the bulk factor, well it's really not that resilient when not Mega-evolved.
It of course is a threat, but what isn't in today's metagame?
(And just because:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 393-463 (129.2 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
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