np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[Miscellaneous]

My concise view on MMawile is that it just has too much going for it.

Even if you individually pick aparts various aspects of it and theorymon with them, perhaps things might not look so bad. But MMawile is definitely greater than the sum of its parts, which is something that is very obvious after playing against it enough. It's not just the power, the typing, the movepool, the bulk and how well it integrates into basically all OU teams; its how these all come together to make it truly terrifying.

The only reason I would hesitate is because its slow when it can't rely on priority. But my judgement call here is that that isn't enough of a downside to justify it staying.

 

[ohgeedubs]

M-Mawile can only be checked, not countered, and it has the great defensive typing to come in numerous times. Here I make several really aggressive plays (I was having fun), and my opponent is simply trying not to get swept. I'm not even swords dancing or subbing but going for dry Focus Punches, and my opponent is getting annihilated while trying to prevent me from potentially sweeping:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116351695

[sorry for lowish end ladder match, the only one I can find where I used M-Mawile]

Yes, it's not really always smart to make such risky plays, but if you're basing your countering/scouting/"playing around" arguments on people who play M-Mawile conservatively, you'll know true fear when someone starts playing it really aggressively and forcing your hand.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying no counters = broken. But I am saying the fear aura it can induce in opponents with its sweeping capabilities, monstrous attack, forced switching, and easily abusable typing is kinda crazy and is at least worthy of suspect.

 

[ginganinja]

There are multiple pokemon that are guaranteed a kill that's legal in OU right now. And there is nothing wrong with hole punching after setting up. Like you said, it's not going to 6-0 teams,

Its a good thing this isn't the sole reason we ban something ay? "Does this 6-0 Teams", is never a reliable mechanic for determining whether something is broken. Furthermore, just because there are "multiple pokemon that can guarantee a kill" doesn't automatically make Mega Mawile any less broken, its just the Suspect Council believed Mega Mawile was a higher priority issue compared with some other pokmeon in the metagame.

While I admit Mega Garchomp isn't comparatively as good as some of the other checks/counters mentioned, being only B+ rank, it still handles the SD set rather well, provided there are no substitutes up.

Not it doesn't. As a player, there is no goddam way in hell that I am bringing in a Garchomp on Mega Mawile, when 85% its best move is to fire off a Play Rough, because it pretty much murders anything that switches into it. The only way I would SD is if I wanted to OHKO Gliscor / beat Landorus-T or whatever, and in my experience, I don't see many teams that pack both Mega Garchomp and Gliscor (and if they did, I would potentially still spam play rough). Furthermore, its really not hard to do like 15% to Garchomp, residual damage, Stealth Rock, Iron Bards, a layer of spikes, all of these threaten to push it into KO range of a +2 Sucker Punch. So yes, I guess if you have a Garchomp (thats using a Mega Slot) that doesn't switch into SR / Iron Barbs / any non electric attack / any status / Rocky Helmet / any hazard and can only come in on something not called Play Rough, you have a BARE CHECK, The fact you turn around and say it hands SD "rather well", is an idiotic statement.

 

[shilly]

Alas, poor Mega Mawile. As much as I'd hate to admit it this thing is just too good. I have not personally used the SubPunch set but from what I have seen this thing annihilates just about everything in its path, with the exception of some checks (defensive Lando-T, dog-who-shall-not-be-named) this thing can do just about anything it wants with little consequences. It's tiresome to have to play so cautiously around a Mon that you have to give a sacrifice to just to get a WoW or a T-Wave in to slow it down. Arguments on both sides are, in my opinion, compelling, but there's no point in denying how fantastic this poor little thing is. It's too fantastic.

 

[bstella1]

M-Mawile can only be checked, not countered, and it has the great defensive typing to come in numerous times. Here I make several really aggressive plays (I was having fun), and my opponent is simply trying not to get swept. I'm not even swords dancing or subbing but going for dry Focus Punches, and my opponent is getting annihilated while trying to prevent me from potentially sweeping:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116351695

[sorry for lowish end ladder match, the only one I can find where I used M-Mawile]

Yes, it's not really always smart to make such risky plays, but if you're basing your countering/scouting/"playing around" arguments on people who play M-Mawile conservatively, you'll know true fear when someone starts playing it really aggressively and forcing your hand.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying no counters = broken. But I am saying the fear aura it can induce in opponents with its sweeping capabilities, monstrous attack, forced switching, and easily abusable typing is kinda crazy and is at least worthy of suspect.

I find that the reverse is often true, too; Mawile is slow and squishy enough that aggressive plays can force your way out of an apparent checkmate. Sure M-Mawile can easily come in on a resisted hit, but then what? Most pokemon have something they can use that will put a serious dent in Mawile before they get pasted, enough to let a teammate finish the job. You can wind up creating a 1:1 trade (for the opponent's mega, no less) where, as you demonstrated, playing conservatively and trying to switch in a "counter" just gives Mawile a free setup turn or a devastating attack on a switch-in.

M-Mawile is still bad, bad news for dedicated walls, but it is possible to play around--at a minimum you should get antsy about leaving purely defensive mons in when the opponent has a Mawile waiting in the wings. I can't say for 100% certain that a ban isn't justified but a lot of easy mawile wins are technically avoidable.

 

[TengenAce]

As you can see there are checks to it. And don't start with me,"oh but when someone sends mawile something is gonna die." That's not a good reason to ban something. You could say the same thing with swift swim pokemon, kyurem-b, excadrill, etc.
All these pokemon fill sweeping rolls well, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're broken.

In a lot of cases, it causes you to sacrifice something just to be able to bring in a check (And more often than not, the Mawile will switch out). If Mawile can guarantee that to happen more often than not, it is broken. It's not directly about having the capability of destroying most things that get sent in. It's more about how reliable it is in getting that kill and then some bonus kills in situations after. And when it comes in safely and forces a switch, it is very likely to severely damage or kill something else that may switch in.

 

[MasterRyuga]

Not surprised nobody has brought Mega Garchomp to this thread yet. Despite being a Dragon Type (weak to that lovely fairy STAB) Mega Garchomp can take out a Mega Mawile at +0, without fearing the +2 Sucker Punch, as Mawile cannot kill with the +2 sucker punch without Stealth Rocks or prior damage.

252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 330-390 (108.5 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 292-344 (81.5 - 96%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While I admit Mega Garchomp isn't comparatively as good as some of the other checks/counters mentioned, being only B+ rank, it still handles the SD set rather well, provided there are no substitutes up. Another thing Garchomp needs is for you to sack something, as it cannot afford to take 2 attacks if it wishes to kill Mawile, and a -1 MegaChomp is unable to OHKO a 252/0 or 132/0 spread.
Something to consider is that some of the other checks mentioned can hardly boast of being able to switch in on +2 MegaWile. While they (and Chomp) can obviously switch in on a sucker, the other moves can be rather problematic.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 1212-1428 (375.2 - 442.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ouch)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 304-358 (91 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 226-266 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

One could argue that you could switch in your Rotom, on say, Fire Fang, but then we get in to the prediction game argument. You could argue you'd predict the Fire Fang and go to Rotom, but I could argue they could predict said switch and use Play Rough, and killing your Rotom. As I've shown here, predictions are a rather poor argument if we're assuming 2 battlers of equal competency are on the field (which I know rarely happens.)

My above calcs do rely on the +2, as the bottom 3 counters can all take the hit from a +0 MegaWile, though they risk dying to Sucker, switches, and hax, among other factors, and I do admit that Rotom, Skarm, Venu, Keldeo, and Chomp can do some form of crippling/killing after they come in, although Keldeo and Chomp will die to Play Rough if they switch in on that.

Honorable mention goes to Heatran, who loses to SubPunch (though according to the usage stats posted earlier in the thread, which I am using as a reference, is only 20%, meaning your Heatran has a large chance of beating out MegaWile if you play your cards right.

If asked for my standing in this Suspect test, I'd say I'm rather neutral. While I do recognize Mawile's offensive prowess, even with its lackluster speed and HP, it still has Checks and Counters that are viable in OU, though it does have the potential to muscle through them after a second Swords Dance.

you have to understand any pokemon that gets a successful SD or DD become very difficult to deal with. mawile is so good because of the OU meta filled with pokemon that it hits for for super effective damage. but the thing is it has it immediate power it comes in and does good damage

 

[Not Zer0]

Not it doesn't. As a player, there is no goddam way in hell that I am bringing in a Garchomp on Mega Mawile, when 85% its best move is to fire off a Play Rough, because it pretty much murders anything that switches into it. The only way I would SD is if I wanted to OHKO Gliscor / beat Landorus-T or whatever, and in my experience, I don't see many teams that pack both Mega Garchomp and Gliscor (and if they did, I would potentially still spam play rough). Furthermore, its really not hard to do like 15% to Garchomp, residual damage, Stealth Rock, Iron Bards, a layer of spikes, all of these threaten to push it into KO range of a +2 Sucker Punch. So yes, I guess if you have a Garchomp (thats using a Mega Slot) that doesn't switch into SR / Iron Barbs / any non electric attack / any status / Rocky Helmet / any hazard and can only come in on something not called Play Rough, you have a BARE CHECK, The fact you turn around and say it hands SD "rather well", is an idiotic statement.

First,

Chomp will die to Play Rough if they switch in on that.

Another thing Garchomp needs is for you to sack something, as it cannot afford to take 2 attacks if it wishes to kill Mawile, and a -1 MegaChomp is unable to OHKO a 252/0 or 132/0 spread.

It's a matter of preserving Chomp throughout the match. As an example to how you would do this, I'll use Mega Scizor and Goodra. In my hypothetical situation we've created, I have a team that Scizor, with different moves, can take apart. Goodra is the only pokemon on my team that can take a +2 Bullet Punch and defeat Scizor with flamethrower. As a player, I have to realize that if I bring in Goodra and let it get damaged, I will lose. If it is within my control, which excludes phazing, I will not bring in Goodra until Scizor has to be dealt with, which I will have to do with a safe switch, usually after sacking something, because Goodra can and will die if I switch it on an attacking move.

It's the same type of situation here. You have to preserve your check, or you'll lose. This means there is no way in hell I'm switching in my Garchomp on MegaWile if the possibility stands I will be attacked on the switch by said Mawile and I'm out one check. Alternatively, you run multiple checks if they have synergy and it wouldn't hinder your team to do so.

On the sacking issue, I believe Keldeo is in the same situation, as if it gets hit by Fire Fang by +2 MegaWile it's in KO range for Sucker Punch. What it boils down to is Keldeo shouldn't be switching in on Mawile unless you're feeling risky or you can guarantee you won't be Fire Fanged, or Play Roughed. Garchomp is in a more extreme version of this situation where it shouldn't switch in until it's ready to do its job. So, even if you are spamming Play Rough, that's great, but when Chomp gets a free switch because something died to Mawile, just look out.

On the matter of entry hazards, I'm not saying this is a perfect solution, but there are spinners and foggers that are faster than Mawile and can clear away the hazards so Garchomp has its precious health retained. Yes, the fogger/spinner will very likely die in the process, and I'm pretty sure we've established that very few Pokemon can take a hit from this physical nuke at this point in the discussion.

Also, the handling SD rather well was a comparative statement, as it appears to be doing a better job than a large portion of the metagame. As I stated, very few pokemon can boast of being able to come in versus a Mawile and in a favorable situation, net the KO. If I made it sound like it would be coming in without a safe switch, that's on me, and I should have worded my statement better.

tl;dr It's not as bad as you make it out to be, though I have admitted and continually will that it is flawed and shouldn't be your first choice. However, the choice to use MegaChomp as a check, however shaky, exists.

 

[Sun King]

First,



It's a matter of preserving Chomp throughout the match. As an example to how you would do this, I'll use Mega Scizor and Goodra. In my hypothetical situation we've created, I have a team that Scizor, with different moves, can take apart. Goodra is the only pokemon on my team that can take a +2 Bullet Punch and defeat Scizor with flamethrower. As a player, I have to realize that if I bring in Goodra and let it get damaged, I will lose. If it is within my control, which excludes phazing, I will not bring in Goodra until Scizor has to be dealt with, which I will have to do with a safe switch, usually after sacking something, because Goodra can and will die if I switch it on an attacking move.

It's the same type of situation here. You have to preserve your check, or you'll lose. This means there is no way in hell I'm switching in my Garchomp on MegaWile if the possibility stands I will be attacked on the switch by said Mawile and I'm out one check. Alternatively, you run multiple checks if they have synergy and it wouldn't hinder your team to do so.

On the sacking issue, I believe Keldeo is in the same situation, as if it gets hit by Fire Fang by +2 MegaWile it's in KO range for Sucker Punch. What it boils down to is Keldeo shouldn't be switching in on Mawile unless you're feeling risky or you can guarantee you won't be Fire Fanged, or Play Roughed. Garchomp is in a more extreme version of this situation where it shouldn't switch in until it's ready to do its job. So, even if you are spamming Play Rough, that's great, but when Chomp gets a free switch because something died to Mawile, just look out.

On the matter of entry hazards, I'm not saying this is a perfect solution, but there are spinners and foggers that are faster than Mawile and can clear away the hazards so Garchomp has its precious health retained. Yes, the fogger/spinner will very likely die in the process, and I'm pretty sure we've established that very few Pokemon can take a hit from this physical nuke at this point in the discussion.

Also, the handling SD rather well was a comparative statement, as it appears to be doing a better job than a large portion of the metagame. As I stated, very few pokemon can boast of being able to come in versus a Mawile and in a favorable situation, net the KO. If I made it sound like it would be coming in without a safe switch, that's on me, and I should have worded my statement better.

tl;dr It's not as bad as you make it out to be, though I have admitted and continually will that it is flawed and shouldn't be your first choice. However, the choice to use MegaChomp as a check, however shaky, exists.

You could say the same about essentially anything with a STAB super effective move against Mawile. The fact that you generally need to sacrifice something to that check in is what makes this thing so absurdly broken in the first place (excuse me if I overstate anything, as I've had a few). For offense, this is unacceptable; for balance, this sucks; for stall, having a critical member of your team crippled/ killed could very well cost you the match.

 

[HeIIraiser]

Mawile is ridiculously powerful, has great typing, great offensive presence, good pre-Mega ability (intimidate), many set up oportunities in the current XY OU metagame and as many people pointed out it has many offensive movesets options which allow it to deal with many of its "counters" (focus punch to hit heatran, fire fang to hit megascizor and ferrothorn, iron head to flinch stuff and hit megavenu, knock off to hit stuff in the switch, etc). Only three pokémon can kinda counter mega mawile: bulky Mega Charizard Y (needs to keep SR away), bulky Talonflame (needs to keep SR away) and bulky Landorus-T (lacks recovery). There is no way you can tell for sure if Mawile is running Substitute, Focus Punch, Swords Dance, Iron Head, Fire Fang or Knock Off or any of its other possible options, allowing mawile todefeat at least one of those "checks" most of the time.
Aegislash with sub/toxic was one of the few reliable answers to Mawile, and having it gone means Mawile can actually stop running Knock Off most of the time, making it even more dangerous for the metagame. As many people said, the best way to defeat Mawile is to have a fast, dark-resisting attacker that can survive a Sucker Punch (Keldeo, Terrakion, Infernape(lol)), which are not many pokémons. This is very specific and you are often forced to sack something just to force it out. Mawile can also work consistently through a match, being durable and getting easy kills.
tl;dr:

 

[preserve]

Its a good thing this isn't the sole reason we ban something ay? "Does this 6-0 Teams", is never a reliable mechanic for determining whether something is broken. Furthermore, just because there are "multiple pokemon that can guarantee a kill" doesn't automatically make Mega Mawile any less broken, its just the Suspect Council believed Mega Mawile was a higher priority issue compared with some other pokmeon in the metagame.

So just to be sure, one of the reasons for a pokemon to be banned by most people(or perhaps just your opinion) is if that pokemon can guarantee a kill? I'm just asking because I want to know what people believe to be ban worthy and not ban worthy?

 

[TengenAce]

So just to be sure, one of the reasons for a pokemon to be banned by most people(or perhaps just your opinion) is if that pokemon can guarantee a kill? I'm just asking because I want to know what people believe to be ban worthy and not ban worthy?

In a way, yeah. Mawile can pretty much guarantee a kill when used correctly, but also has excellent typing and solid movepool, which go together in reasons for pro-ban.

 

[MasterRyuga]

Mawile is ridiculously powerful, has great typing, great offensive presence, good pre-Mega ability (intimidate), many set up oportunities in the current XY OU metagame and as many people pointed out it has many offensive movesets options which allow it to deal with many of its "counters" (focus punch to hit heatran, fire fang to hit megascizor and ferrothorn, iron head to flinch stuff and hit megavenu, knock off to hit stuff in the switch, etc). Only three pokémon can kinda counter mega mawile: bulky Mega Charizard Y (needs to keep SR away), bulky Talonflame (needs to keep SR away) and bulky Landorus-T (lacks recovery). There is no way you can tell for sure if Mawile is running Substitute, Focus Punch, Swords Dance, Iron Head, Fire Fang or Knock Off or any of its other possible options, allowing mawile todefeat at least one of those "checks" most of the time.
Aegislash with sub/toxic was one of the few reliable answers to Mawile, and having it gone means Mawile can actually stop running Knock Off most of the time, making it even more dangerous for the metagame. As many people said, the best way to defeat Mawile is to have a fast, dark-resisting attacker that can survive a Sucker Punch (Keldeo, Terrakion, Infernape(lol)), which are not many pokémons. This is very specific and you are often forced to sack something just to force it out. Mawile can also work consistently through a match, being durable and getting easy kills.
tl;dr:

lets be honest instead of riding a bandwagon that thing is strong but its not like mega khan. remember that its called the Overused tier for a reason, and its definitely not the most overused mega its just a good pokemon. if we do not bann it then we dont have to ban anything else. only things left to ban are pinsir or charizard mawile is very powerful in damage but can be ohko just as easy also any pokemon that sets up successfully becomes very hard to stop. its immediate power is why its so strong. atleast in my honest opinion.

 

[ginganinja]

So just to be sure, one of the reasons for a pokemon to be banned by most people(or perhaps just your opinion) is if that pokemon can guarantee a kill? I'm just asking because I want to know what people believe to be ban worthy and not ban worthy?

Strictly speaking, the rather broad definition for what is ban worthy, is anything that has a centralizing force on the metagame. Someone put this another way "we ban things that are unhealthy in the metagame, that prevents a metagame from being both enjoyable, but also continues to promote skillful play in order to be successful. To be sure, these are subjective terms, but they do give an indication for why we ban".

"Guaranteeing" a kill is never really an argument I enjoyed, because if it were exactly true, then we would have banned Kyurem-B back in BW, so I tend to view this sort of argument as a variation of "an unhealthy force on the metagame". Salamence in DPP for instance, is a pretty good example of an unhealthy force on the meta, because in essence, you had to guess whether it was MixMence or DD Mence. Call it wrong, (thus bringing in the wrong counter / check), and you flat out lost. Technically, many other pokemon can do this to a similar extent, but due to a variety of factors, none of them can do it as well as the pokemon that are banished to Ubers (or suspect tested). Mega Mawile is currently being discussed due to the combination of bulk + Intimidate + Huge Power + Priority + powerful STAB move + solid coverage options. Being slow is a minor inconvenience when you can rip huge chunks of HP off even some of the more defensive pokemon in the metagame, and then effectively "outspeed" via Sucker Punch for an easy kill.

 

[Synchronation]

Finally done reading through all posts...

First off, I think it is funny how many anti-ban people say that you just have to scout for its set, maybe sacking something and then deal with it. Wasn't that a pro-ban argument for Aegislash?
Anyway, here is the difference: Scouting for Aegislash is WAY easier because its set are adjusted to the team. However, Mega-Mawiles set is not.
Example:
You looking at the team preview and you see a Mega-Mawile. The whole team in general has a weakness to Heatran (which you luckily have in your team).
Now what? Your problem is, you can of course assume it is the SubPunch-set, but does that help you? Not really, because not only can Mawile destroy your check, your team is just in a complete disadvantage. Your Heatran, which you have to keep alive because of this team, becomes USELESS in front of Mawile at the same time.
Its getting even worse: He doesn't even need to run SubPunch-Mawile. Having Latios with Earthquake to deal with Heatran is possible too. Having a Heatran-weak team that can destroy it easily without sacking anything is just incredible.

Mawile doesn't adjust to the team, the team adjusts to Mawile. It can build on Mawiles weaknesses (like running many Heatran-weak Pokemon) or build against it. And both variants are equally good making Mawiles set UNPREDICTABLE. Scouting is impossible without sacking something because of its powerful attacks, which is one of the reasons Mega-Lucario was banned. To deal with Mega-Mawile you NEED two checks, maybe even more.

Like I said in my last post: It doesn't sweep 6-0 teams, it weakens the team to the point where other sweepers can handle the rest very easily. It is unpredictable like Mega-Lucario, has a power comparable to Mega-Kangaskhan and supports the team offensively like Deoxys-S. It doesn't do that to the extreme like the mentioned Pokemon but combines these great trade-offs in one. This is in my opinion too much.

Right now I didn't see many good anti-ban arguments. This is a generation of checks, not counters (don't know how many times I said this) and we all know that. But being able to destroy teams and not easy to revenge kill even WITH checks is a point that hasn't been disproved yet.

 

[Der Richter]

They're "mega" mons for a reason and they were put in gen 6 and they're here to stay as we see from ORAS. Our obviousy broken megas(luc, blaziken, kanga) are gone for good reason and keeping the meta together and in line is important, but to neglect the idea that this is how the game is now is to leave yourself with lots of static ideas and reasoning.

Does M-Mawile centralize things? - No, I don't see him on every team. People prefer other megas or other sweepers.
Does every mon in OU have numerous valid checks and counters? No, at times we need to sac or outspeed to get kills on certain mons. A part of the game is keeping alive what you need in order to win in the end.
Is the sweeper role a new thing and are there no other devastating sweepers in the meta? Nope, there are plenty and with the power creep the past two gens we've seen more and more of them.

It's easy to say "I want this gone", but it's important to consider that this is Gen 6 OU and it's not really going to change too much: People use megas, they're strong, and they're a part of the game. IMO Thundy should be considered before M-Mawile and it doesn't even have it's ability or a priority attack. I'd say Thundy is a much easier win condition than M-Mawile.

Whether or not I think we're going in the right direction with the meta, and whether or not I think we're ignoring the changes gen 6 brought us by systematically removing them to try and bring back gen 4, here are my views on m-mawile:

50 base speed is tough to set up with and hard to hit mons with. Even most walls are faster than 50 base speed.
M-Mawile isn't particularly bulky and it has common weaknesses, coupled with my previous point, M-Mawile needs to pick it's spots to get things going.
M-Mawile switching out is counter-productive to it's team due to the two previous points. It's not like it's going to come in and kill everything later on given it's speed and common weaknesses-- once it gets going it's usually either late game or it's staying in until it dies.
M-Mawile's priority can be it's weakness as we know(can be liable to status) but priority at 50 base speed also leaves it open to being hit by faster priority and priority is very common as we know.
M-Mawile is stopped by a variety of mons despite them not being true counters or checks, it's likely something on your team can resist a sucker punch and score a kill or just scare it off nd it's up to you as the player to keep that mon healthy to do the same thing later in the match-- and with M-Mawile's other not so great qualities, it's not really too bad when it shows up again unless you screw up.
M-Mawile's variety shows up in only a few different ways

In the end, M-Mawile is a sweeper and commonly a win condition for those who choose to use it, however, it's not like you can just click a button and win. There are plenty of things stopping it and unlike M-Scizor or M-Charizard, or other megas with recovery, it's not like it's switching in and out to kill everything and recovering and it isn't quick enough to keep showing up and killing stuff. It should stay because it's a good mon that's not as easy as it looks to win with and despite "true checks/counters", it can be slowed down or stopped.

I completely agree with this guy.
About me, I always found M-Mawile quite predictable, and once you figure out the set, is very easy to play around it. Yeah, figure it out can be very risky, but there are a lot of mons for which you have to risk in order to find out what they're capable of. Like when you switch Mega Venusaur in Greninja, just to get an Extrasensory in the face.
You know what? For my experience, Gourgeist is a good check to this thing. Lacking Fire Fangs (or Ice Fangs), he can't be hit super effectively, and is very easy to trick him in a Sucker Punch and use Will o' Wisp. (hell, actually Gourgeist is very underestimated. In early Xy he was a very good check to Mega Kangaskhan. Even Jellicent is a decent check and burner. People should think more creatively instead of focusing on the usual monsters (and before anyone says anything, Gourgeist and Jellicent ain't no A rank, but they're perfectly viable for OU).
Sure, if he gets one or two Sword Dance up is extremely difficult to stop, but hey, I can wreck everything even with Mega Pinsir after one or two boosts, and he's got even two much better priority options. So, in my book, M-Mawile can stay, he's not so polarizing as Aegislash (and don't agree with that ban either), and as limiting in team building. What, you need a burner? That's not limiting, considering that physical monsters like Garchomp and Scizor are everywhere.

 

[AM]

I completely agree with this guy.
About me, I always found M-Mawile quite predictable, and once you figure out the set, is very easy to play around it. You know what? For my experience, Gourgeist is a good check to this thing. Lacking Fire Fangs (or Ice Fangs), he can't be hit super effectively, and is very easy to trick him in a Sucker Punch and use Will o' Wisp. (hell, actually Gourgeist is very underestimated. In early Xy he was a very good check to Mega Kangaskhan. Even Jellicent is a decent check and burner. People should think more creatively instead of focusing on the usual monsters (and before anyone says anything, Gourgeist and Jellicent ain't no A rank, but they're perfectly viable for OU).
Sure, if he gets one or two Sword Dance up is extremely difficult to stop, but hey, I can wreck everything even with Mega Pinsir after one or two boosts, and he's got even two much better priority options. So, in my book, M-Mawile can stay, he's not so polarizing as Aegislash (and don't agree with that ban either).

With all due respect how are you going to use the argument "be more creative" as a legitimate point for not banning something? Do you actually believe that we don't know this already, that we haven't even tried this? Cause believe it or not, people do think outside of the box and try stuff to see what works in the tier besides your average team with the same stock mons. Also if Gourgeist and Jellicent were truly legitimate checks to M-Mawile on a consistent basis they would 1. Have more recognition than they do now 2. Would've been brought up a while ago on this thread anyways. Also if you let M-Mawile get up to 2 Sword Dances idk what you're trying to do. It's common knowledge that Gourgiest runs Will-O-Wiso anyways, why would M-Mawile risk getting burned for something as simplistic as a Gourgeist, which all teams by default will have a legitimate answer for. Let's add on to the fact you're not getting past Sub sets anyways.

M-Pinsir and M-Mawile are two different things entirely. One doesn't lose half his health to Stealth Rocks, Sucker Punch is better priority in terms of what it actually covers, and one of them doesn't auto lose to stuff like Brave Bird Talonflame. I'm not saying M-Pinsir isn't a monster but you're overselling M-Pinsir and how it compares to M-Mawile and once you've combined all the traits from both of them, M-Mawile will be a more dangerous aspect to the tier.

 

[lufan131]

I repeat, to me Mawile isn't as centalizing as people claim it to be. I've always found much more annoying Char Z/Y.

And, when you think about it, either of those counter mega-mawile. Once either of those, or both leave, then, it might be broken. Right now, it's not too game breaking, if you one to two hit it(Easier said then done, i know), I don't think I get this, but that's what I think.

 

[ginganinja]

Posting this again, but we don't accept one liner posts because they promote zero discussion, and end up with So, yea, I agree/disagree. This really shouldn't need to be stressed over and over again, as Haunter, Rey, myself, Subject 18, and now me (again), have said this enough, so I'll just simply hand out a 3 point infraction to anyone who doesn't bother to understand the posting rules. For those of you unaware, 3 points instantly puts you on the "I could be Banned" list (with 1 more point banning you from the site for the set time), so I advise new posters to lurk very hard before posting, or just stay out of this thread entirely.

 

[Der Richter]

I see, then I'll try to articulate more what was coming out of that on liners, that I found actually a decent argument anti-ban: Char X and Y limit Mawile rampage. They can arguably counter, and pretty surely check Mega Mawile, being Y resistant to both STABS (particularly this can't be hit for supereffective damages if Mawile lacks thunder fangs), both surviving a Sucker Punch, and KOing him with their stabs. Considering they're amongst the most used megas in the OU environment, I think they're a valid point to not ban Mawile.
More over, I think Sableye is a good answer too. Yeah, you have to risk and suck him against a Play Rough, but is nigh assured that he'll get him burned and makes him useless.

 

[Synchronation]

I see, then I'll try to articulate more what was coming out of that on liners, that I found actually a decent argument anti-ban: Char X and Y limit Mawile rampage. They can arguably counter, and pretty surely check Mega Mawile, being Y resistant to both STABS (particularly this can't be hit for supereffective damages if Mawile lacks thunder fangs), both surviving a Sucker Punch, and KOing him with their stabs. Considering they're amongst the most used megas in the OU environment, I think they're a valid point to not ban Mawile.
More over, I think Sableye is a good answer too. Yeah, you have to risk and suck him against a Play Rough, but is nigh assured that he'll get him burned and makes him useless.

CharX is not a counter, it is a check. CharY's defensive set counters, this is right. We are still not trying to prove that Mawile has no checks/counters (we all know that it has these!), but I think they are not enough AND not reliable. CharX can't take a Play Rough well, at +2 even Sucker Punch is too much. It's like Garchomp and similar checks. This is not a decent "argument", it is just one of the few Pokemon that SOMETIMES can revenge-kill Mawile if you predicted right (Sucker Punch mindgames).
Sableye is a really REALLY bad answer. Not only it can't switch in, Mawile can defeat it even BURNED. You don't need SD. If Sableye is your answer, then you have to sack one Pokemon to bring in Sableye and sack Sableye itself to make Mawile weaker (which doesn't matter too much if it has SD). Sorry, Sableye is definitely not a good answer.

 

[Espurr's_Eyes]

I've been lurking for all the suspect tests this gen, but I have to step in for MMawile. She is a powerhouse, yes, but it is stupid to say she can't be dealt with. Her awful base 50 speed makes her prey to anything that runs an even semi powerful earthquake for coverage. Sucker Punch is powerful, yes, but it is a shoddy excuse for priority that leaves her wide open to will o wisp and other status moves, not to mention the fact that if it is outsped it doesn't even hit.

Mawile has limited counters, yes, (Heatran will do the job, but is indeed stopped by the subpunch set that is very rarely used, as well as Mega Venusaur, who is only stopped by Iron Head which is again, rarely used.) But options to check Mawile are everywhere.

Landorus can revenge kill easily, as it intimidates and proceeds to destroy it with a Stab Earthquake.
(252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO)

Terrakion also has a big chance of stopping her. If it can safely switch in (on a well predicted Fire Fang for instance) it can easily force her out or wreck her with a Banded EQ or even STAB Banded Close Combat. Mawile can't touch Terrakion with her "priority" as it will just activate Terrakion's Justified.
(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO)

There are even more such as Garchomp who can eat a sucker punch and proceed to EQ in the face. Mawile is revenge killed easily and can be outplayed by a smart player.

 

[Simperheve]

In a straight one on one fight, Mega Charizard Y wipes the floor with Mega Mawile:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile in Sun: 534-630 (175.6 - 207.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 203-239 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course it's shaky, but not every situation is going to demand that you have to perform a switch, so Mawile isn't going to get a garunteed turn to set up every single time. It also doesn't suffer from intimidate due to using special attacks.

Is having a unshakable, 100% counter the only way to save Mawile from a ban? Because there have been plenty of suggestions that form decent checks to Mega Mawile in varying situations, but a lot of calcs are running under the assumption that Mawile will always get a turn to set up.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Mega Mawile is broken and cancerous beyond belief. It has such a great matchup vs every type of team. Lets take Gen 4 Salamence. Let's give Salamence a ridiculous attack stat in exchange for its special attack stat. Let's give it a godlike typing that lets it switch into battle in tandem with intimidate, which often gives it a free turn to set up Sub/SD. Finally, just for kicks, lets give it Sucker Punch to make it extremely hard to revenge kill. This, my friends, is Mawile. If that doesnt scream broken to you, I don't know what will. Just get this cancerous piece of shit out of OU, I want my tier to be playable.

 

[Zapdos from [Hero]]

Firebird101 No, enough mons live a +2 Punch, it's called revengekilling. While building your team, you watch out not to have any /complete/ setup bait, meaning you can damage it enough with every team member to RK it later.Supposing the team has no check, Hippowdon and Landorus-T are great on Balance while you otherwise attack w/ the mon that is currently in battle to get it and then revengekill. Lucario, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Bisharp and MGyarados indeed cannot outright kill but they can after enough chip-damage has been dealt to it, which is done while Maw boosts.

Btw i see the banwagon roll over smogon again smh