canno
formerly The Reptile
both STABs are neutral though...I see this set ALL the time on the ladder. I'd say Unaware Quagsire is the best counter, as it resists all of these moves.
both STABs are neutral though...I see this set ALL the time on the ladder. I'd say Unaware Quagsire is the best counter, as it resists all of these moves.
252+ Atk Refrigerate Cloyster Spike Cannon (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 250-300 (59.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryReturn is more powerful on Cloyster than Spike Cannon. Spike Cannon might be useful for breaking some subs and sashes, but you never know when that extra 2% power might come in handy.
That's so fucking weird. 20 * 5 = 100 and Return has a base power of 102, but Spike Cannon does more damage. I also forgot that Spike Cannon has a decent chance of getting a crit on at least one of the hits too. So yeah, use Spike Cannon.252+ Atk Refrigerate Cloyster Spike Cannon (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 250-300 (59.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Refrigerate Cloyster Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 248-294 (59 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, Spike Cannon over Return for Cloyster imo.
Quagsire is hit neural by ice. But it still manages to avoid 2hko from icicle spear.I see this set ALL the time on the ladder. I'd say Unaware Quagsire is the best counter, as it resists all of these moves.
How did you get those calculations? This is what I got...252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Luxray Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 307-361 (101.6 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Luxray Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 344-407 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
normal type moves have an extra 30% BP. also, it was scizor for the second calcHow did you get those calculations? This is what I got...
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Electric Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 236-278 (78.1 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Luxray Electric Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 816-960 (270.1 - 317.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Each hit gets the 30% bonus AND STAB. 20*1.3*1.5*5=195That's so fucking weird. 20 * 5 = 100 and Return has a base power of 102, but Spike Cannon does more damage. I also forgot that Spike Cannon has a decent chance of getting a crit on at least one of the hits too. So yeah, use Spike Cannon.
It's the damage formula:That's so fucking weird. 20 * 5 = 100 and Return has a base power of 102, but Spike Cannon does more damage. I also forgot that Spike Cannon has a decent chance of getting a crit on at least one of the hits too. So yeah, use Spike Cannon.
For the purposes of discussion we're ignoring the -ate bonus and STAB when comparing two normal-type moves. Makes things a lot easier.Each hit gets the 30% bonus AND STAB. 20*1.3*1.5*5=195
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 247-292 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rockis seemingly good in this metagame. Thanks to access to Tough Claws Return, it's sheer power combined with a high Speed stat and then a really good primary STAB makes it one of the most powerful late-game sweepers in this metagame, although not widely used. The below set is what I use, however you can feel free to use it yourself or construct another one as you please.
@
Ability: Unnerve / Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Facade
It's not very surprising to see an Aerodactylite on an Aerodactyl this Generation, but the pre-evolving choice of ability is what matters more. Unnerve can be used to prevent the use of Berries, like perhaps Sitrus Berry, Oran Berry (Recycle L1 Magnemite because FEAR me that's why [not really]), and Chople, Babiri Berry, etc that weaken the power of super effective moves. However, the latter ability, Pressure can be used to stall out 2 PP instead of 1 for the ESpeed Zygardes. Adamant nature is because you'll outspeed everything that's not Scarfed in the metagame and anyways, ESpeed is priority, plus you need more power to ensure more KOes. Return is obvious, Dragon Claw is for them Zygarde's switching in to Dactyl (yes, you have to predict) and EQ is for Lucarios and other Steel-types. Facade is just so if you want to switch-in on a WoW or Poisoning move. In fact, if you do, you can OHKO even stuff like Clefable (252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Facade (166 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 357-421 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)!
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 364-429 (94.3 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 680-804 (181.8 - 214.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 786-926 (252.7 - 297.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 222-262 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoverySadly, Zygarde can 2HKO Megadactyl with ESpeed even before it can Dragon Claw it the second time.
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 524-618 (136.4 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
102*1.3*1.5=198,9 I don't know how you guys did your calcs but return is more powerfull. Spike canon is still better tho.Each hit gets the 30% bonus AND STAB. 20*1.3*1.5*5=195
102*1.3*1.5=198,9 I don't know how you guys did your calcs but return is more powerfull. Spike canon is still better tho.
But yea, Cloyster would've appreciated Quick Attack more ;-;It's the damage formula:
(note the +2 in the parenthesis, which is applied on each hit of Spike Cannon as opposed to Return's only hit)
Just depends on if the move itself is broken or if a single Pokemon using it is broken.I thought Pokemon got banned before it was decided that moves get banned.
That assumes Stealth Rock which isn't a given, especially when we're talking leads, and it also assumes Dragonite doesn't flinch you. Take away those assumptions and even a crit won't give you the KO.4 SpA Pixilate Clefable Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and that's without LO
My point is that Noivern can sweep a team, sure, but it requires that your team fail to fit some extremely broad demands you should probably fit to anyway. I don't consider it broken, or even all that great really."Noivern is kinda close, since if your entire team is slow, lacks priority, and lacks meaningful resistance to it and/or bulk", like every top threat in every tier, duh, charizard in OU, Victini in UU, suicune in AAA... if you have aan unprepared team, you lose, simple.
If everything is at best a check, and the checks aren't very good at their job, and you're arguing that Dragonite is very definitely not broken... this holds together because?"I never said that, I said check"
I've not played RU, but it's ridiculous to claim that nothing hard-counters Charizard in OU. Just off the top of my head are Aerodactyl and Heatran."In general Zygarde and Dragonite lack genuine hard counters" like some pokemon in other tiers than aren't broken, charizard in OU, Exploud in RU...
And is Mega Aggron viable as anything other than a counter to these?" they must switch or die, especially Dragonite with Iron Head." Maggron...
Noivern dies in one hit from Azumarill, but not Dragonite. (And my position is that Noivern is powerful but fine whereas I'm not so convinced Dragonite is balanced) Dragonite can also just use Earthquake for a guaranteed 2HKO instead. Even Azumarill coming in off a KO is not certain that it can scare off, let alone KO, Dragonite, when we're talking a build specialized to counter Dragonite.+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-209 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 286-337 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it checks both.
I focused on Azumarill because you describe it as checking 'all' Extreme Speed users, which it full stop does not. I could've been really obnoxious and pointed out how easily Pikachu with Light Ball or Raichu can tear it in half. I focused on Unaware Clefable because it's one of the genuinely best answers to Dragonite -which means the fact that it can't actually be counted on stands out all the more.Also i mentioned many checks. You only talked about 2.
In what universe is Lucario a counter or check to any of let alone all of Dragonite, Zygarde, or Noivern?"specialized counters" yes, because a lucario or a scarf gardevoir will only be usefull against them.