np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Metalhand]

Getting close to reqs(though not sure if I get then since I don't have a lot of free time). I will share some of my final thoughts on the suspect. First of all, I think aegislash himself isn't broken, it is an amazing mon with good offensive and defensive power but its less threatening then it seems on paper, but I will get to that later.

I think that most people will agree with me when I say that the reason to ban aegislash is for overcentralization, which is the main reason why the communitee so thorn about the this suspect-centralization doesn't have a clear cut so every player have a different opinion about when the meta is centraliazed , and at the same time everyone think differently about a centralized meta.

My simple opinion about this suspect is that Aegislash isn't broken, but it is centralizing, yet not enough to be banned. So Oras came, and on paper we have the perfect metagame-lots of viable mon and every playstyle is viable, we achieved our wanted metagame, yet on surface we just have a lot of strong threats, most of them(if not all) are not broken but at the same time they are way too threatening. This situation create a big line of pokemons which are between balanced and broken-almost every meta game have few of those but we have too much, which is why we are finding ourselves dealing with threats which might too much but at the same time can't ban anything.

Now to aegi- the sword is sitting on the same line of those threats, but unlike rest of them it have additional effect, it forcing a large amount of the metagame(a lot of it are those semi-broken mons) to prepare for it. It doesn't do this by forcing a bizarre counters(foul play digersby for giratina-o or porygon2 for greninja) but by making them use less optimal(but yet effective and useful) mons and coverage. This create a metagame which is more centralized but a the same time more healthier and stable. I want for example to take a look at the current UU meta, which pretty much anyone will agree that is stable and good example for desired meta. Yet at the top of the metagame are sitting three threatening mons-suicune, salamence and mega aerodactyle. Those three mons are very dangerous threats that if you don't preparing for it will get destroyed by them. While they centralizing the meta is still diverse and stable, you can even say that because the meta is circling around them its stable.

Back to Aegislash, I won't lie-its gonna be more centralizing then those mentioned above, yet I believe(and I will try to convincing you too) that it won't be too centralizing, or in a way that will have a negative effect on the meta. I think that anyone that got to ladder with the treats that are seem unviable because of aegi, finding that:
1) it is viable, it does having trouble with aegislash around yet still effective(mega heracross is a great example)
2) its a great even with aegi around, we maybe didn't saw its potential back then or the meta was different(for example starmie which his true problem back at the time was greninja)
3) aegislash outclassing its or hard walling its, which happen with every top treat(like m-cham whose hard walled by aegi(though already lost ton viability with gallade around) or salamence which have what it takes for ou but outclassed by too many stuff)

In addition to what I wrote above I would to adress to some points of the pro-ban side:
1)the AOA life orb and subtoxic sets-I won't say that they are bad, they show how versatile aegi is and truly pass his traditional counters, but its seems people exaggerating their value, as they take away a lot of his usual pros-the all out attack set is a glass canon thats gets worn down too easily, and subtoxic is really mach-up dependent.
2)there no reason not to use it-whether you pro-ban or against it, we all gonna agree its gonna be best mon in ou. Yet, there so many unique and great mons in the meta that can perform a lot of rolls that aegislash can't. Even in XY, he never got more than 24% usage, which is quite a lot but not as much as people make it seem.
3)the typing-godly, no doubt. Deal with so many stuff, and have so many resistances and immunities, but is come with four weaknesses, three of those very common. The first-dark, is a new powerhouse in gen 6, hitting so many stuff while having great moves like sucker punch, pursuit, foul play and knock off. All of those so common and can give aegi such a hard time. The second, fire, is less common yet lot of mon use it as coverage, and the zards are treats as always. The third, ground, is probably most common, earthquake is a great move and almost useful,and no contact can really screw aegi.
4)king shield-while being a great move, people tend to forget how risky it can be, when predicted right by the opponent you actually give him a free turn which can be used to set up or switch for something better.

I wanted to write more, but this is it for, sorry if something not understood(my english need more work). Anyway, in case it wasn't understood, I personally think no ban.

 

[teal6]

At about 2650 COIL so I figured I'd post up my thoughts before finishing tonight.

I don't particularly find Aegislash difficult to deal with. He does make certains mon less viable (Starmie, uh, Medicham?) but others become more viable on a team because they deal with him well (Weavile, Mammoswine)

I don't think Aegislash necessarily beats too many mons more than any other top tier threat would. He does beat some of the more common mons in OU (namely latis, mega metagross), which I think is perceived to be more overcentralizing than it is. But this isn't a bad thing - I think Aegi's inclusion in the metagame draws it to be multipolar centered around a few really bigs threats, instead of entirely dispersed with essentially two or three top dogs.

That said, I think a big question should always be whether or not the meta is more fun with the mon included. I'd venture to say yes. I like the prediction games that Aegi comes with, I think teambuilding can be interesting when you don't have to explicitly allow yourself a weakness to something necessarily, and I think that he's not so good that he makes the meta less fun by being unaccountable.

All in all, I am still not 100% decided but I am leaning toward no ban for Aegislash

 

[radianthero156]

Huh? S rank mons are extremely hard/impossible to counter 100% (with the exception of Keldeo). Metagross has mmash/zhb, and eq/hammer arm for steels, grass knot for hippowdon and slowbro, thunderpunch for slowking, hp fire for scizor, etc etc. However some of those moves are shit, and players often easily counter meta.

Aegislash's "diverse" movepool isnt what makes it broken. In fact, if your team reliably handles LO shadow ball and subtoxic, it's pretty much aegi-proof. No, aegi doesnt "run moves to beat some of its counters". Hp ice and SD are aub optimal sets whose only purpose is cteaming, like using grass knot bisharp. If you people are arguing aegislash has no counters and thus should be banned, i can use the same logic to prove hydreigon is broken.

 

[Empress]

At about 2650 COIL so I figured I'd post up my thoughts before finishing tonight.

I don't particularly find Aegislash difficult to deal with. He does make certains mon less viable (Starmie, uh, Medicham?) but others become more viable on a team because they deal with him well (Weavile, Mammoswine)

I don't think Aegislash necessarily beats too many mons more than any other top tier threat would. He does beat some of the more common mons in OU (namely latis, mega metagross), which I think is perceived to be more overcentralizing than it is. But this isn't a bad thing - I think Aegi's inclusion in the metagame draws it to be multipolar centered around a few really bigs threats, instead of entirely dispersed with essentially two or three top dogs.

That said, I think a big question should always be whether or not the meta is more fun with the mon included. I'd venture to say yes. I like the prediction games that Aegi comes with, I think teambuilding can be interesting when you don't have to explicitly allow yourself a weakness to something necessarily, and I think that he's not so good that he makes the meta less fun by being unaccountable.

All in all, I am still not 100% decided but I am leaning toward no ban for Aegislash

Aegislash used King's Shield! Weavile used Knock Off! Weavile's Attack harshly fell! Weavile is a poor example because the Weavile player will not always predict King's Shield correctly. Moreover, Aegi doesn't just check some of the common OU mons- he blanket checks damn near the entire OU metagame. We do not introduce broken threats to counter other broken threats. Through what I have seen in both discussions and on the ladder, Aegi is centralizing the metagame around itself just like it did in XY; while this doesn't make it outright broken, it does go to show how dangerous it is in OU. Prediction =/= skill, as well- it can only go so far and the prediction Aegi introduces is less than fun. Guess its set incorrectly or mispredict when it will use King's Shield, and you get punished dearly. Even the most skilled tournament players can only predict so much. Finally, how is teambuilding interesting when you make all the same teams because of the presence of a single threat? See: Primal Groudon. Obviously Aegi isn't nearly as centralizing as P-Don is in Ubers, but they are still comparable because they centralize teambuilding around them. But hey, if you want to use all the same mons to beat the same single threat, suit yourself.

 

[pika pal]

Huh? S rank mons are extremely hard/impossible to counter 100% (with the exception of Keldeo). Metagross has mmash/zhb, and eq/hammer arm for steels, grass knot for hippowdon and slowbro, thunderpunch for slowking, hp fire for scizor, etc etc. However some of those moves are shit, and players often easily counter meta.

Aegislash's "diverse" movepool isnt what makes it broken. In fact, if your team reliably handles LO shadow ball and subtoxic, it's pretty much aegi-proof. No, aegi doesnt "run moves to beat some of its counters". Hp ice and SD are aub optimal sets whose only purpose is cteaming, like using grass knot bisharp. If you people are arguing aegislash has no counters and thus should be banned, i can use the same logic to prove hydreigon is broken.

Minor point before I go into rebuttal, but I legitimately don't understand one comparison: what would Grass Knot Bisharp be used to Counter Team? It doesn't do much to beat Hippowdon or Keldeo, two of the harder stops to it.


The thing is, handling LO Shadow Ball and SubToxic often requires very different team members because the purposes of the sets themselves are also inherently different. How is HP Ice a Suboptimal move for Aegislash when Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword tends to be sufficient coverage for most of the Metagame already? At that point, if Aegislash wants to, why not drop Shadow Sneak to beat the only thing really walling its coverage in Gliscor? Is it counterteaming for me to run Grass Knot on Metagross because I prefer that to having another mon deal with Hippowdon? Heck, with a Spooky Plate Aegislash doesn't even necessarily need HP Ice to ultimately win vs Gliscor.

252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not sure on what basis SD would be considered SubOptimal either. It serves its purpose of boosting Aegislash's strength using his Shield Form to create set-up opportunities and firing off strong coverage options.

And the issue isn't that Aegislash has no counters, it's the fact that checking him almost requires excessive teambuilding effort in and of itself. Hydreigon doesn't quite have counters but he's extremely prediction reliant and can usually be checked by the kind of things a standard team will be running offensively or defensively. You could argue the former point for Aegislash in terms of keeping his set hidden and using King's Shield, but I never find Hydreigon a threat during teambuilding to that kind of degree. Hydreigon also has a defined role, a wallbreaker with wide coverage. Aegislash can be tailored to do whatever you want on any team and he'll do it well. Seeing Aegislash doesn't often tell you what it's built to do: Crumbler works well enough on Hyper Offense, but the SubToxic set can provide passive damage akin to hazards while Aegislash hides behind Subs and King's Shield to fire off Shadow Balls, so it doesn't quite lack offensive presence either.

Most threats in the Metagame are things you can usually deal with by virtue of a Hard Check, a primary and secondary check, whatever terms you use to define their effectiveness. Aegislash requires at least one hard check to a set to avoid losing to it, and that check has to be healthy when you actually learn the set and start playing it against him, during the scouting process Aegislash can start wearing your team out, since his most common move, Shadow Ball, doesn't tend to rule out many prospects besides pure Physical and that the offensive set is running a LO. That means even assuming the best case scenario, where I cover all sets except LO with SpD Gliscor (and why do I want to use SpD Gliscor on so many of my teams), I still need to be prepared to check that variant as well.

With the exception of Altaria, the S-Rank threats have relatively similar purposes, just multiple effective means of going about them whether through coverage, boosting option, etc. Aegislash is a Pokemon that is capable of doing whatever it wants about as well as it wants/needs to for the team.

The other S-Rank threats even, it's a matter of "I need this role filled, and the S-Rank threat does it well with this set". Aegislash is a matter of "I have Aegislash on this team, he checks most of what I need him to. Now, what else do I feel like having him do today?" There's no reason not to have Aegislash on an OU team (whereas there are teams even the S-Rank threats can't manage to fit on), and there's very few situations where Aegislash HAS to pick a particular set to put in work for his team.

 

[teal6]

Aegislash used King's Shield! Weavile used Knock Off! Weavile's Attack harshly fell! Weavile is a poor example because the Weavile player will not always predict King's Shield correctly. Moreover, Aegi doesn't just check some of the common OU mons- he blanket checks damn near the entire OU metagame. We do not introduce broken threats to counter other broken threats. Through what I have seen in both discussions and on the ladder, Aegi is centralizing the metagame around itself just like it did in XY; while this doesn't make it outright broken, it does go to show how dangerous it is in OU. Prediction =/= skill, as well- it can only go so far and the prediction Aegi introduces is less than fun. Guess its set incorrectly or mispredict when it will use King's Shield, and you get punished dearly. Even the most skilled tournament players can only predict so much. Finally, how is teambuilding interesting when you make all the same teams because of the presence of a single threat? See: Primal Groudon. Obviously Aegi isn't nearly as centralizing as P-Don is in Ubers, but they are still comparable because they centralize teambuilding around them. But hey, if you want to use all the same mons to beat the same single threat, suit yourself.

Prediction absolutely is a component of skill, though, so saying it doesn't "=" it is silly. The other part of skill I would reckon is in identifying and executing the best play available.

I don't know what you mean about "the same mons over and over" either, because frankly I think there are a number of ways to beat Aegislash that aren't terribly esoteric and out there. For a while I was using a defensive Venusaur, which beat it without much issue and was able to seed on the shield. Mamoswine is an elegant solution to both Aegi and Landorus-I, another metagame defining check. Weavile can knock it out, like you said, but does struggle with prediction if you don't want to have to make those (which, just from my point of view, is silly). Bisharp has no problem with Aegi if he has a tiny bit of damage or doesn't run Sacred Sword, and can take advantage of KS turns to Swords Dance. Hell, Serperior with HP ground can win if Aegi switches in.

To me, it's just a bit funky to say that it "blanket checks half the metagame" because the way I see it, the metagame is supposed to change based on the prominent threats. If Lati@s are a little rose, to me that's honestly fine - they don't "deserve" to be top OU threats any more than Mamoswine or whatever.

 

[MZ]

Huh? S rank mons are extremely hard/impossible to counter 100% (with the exception of Keldeo). Metagross has mmash/zhb, and eq/hammer arm for steels, grass knot for hippowdon and slowbro, thunderpunch for slowking, hp fire for scizor, etc etc. However some of those moves are shit, and players often easily counter meta.

Aegislash's "diverse" movepool isnt what makes it broken. In fact, if your team reliably handles LO shadow ball and subtoxic, it's pretty much aegi-proof. No, aegi doesnt "run moves to beat some of its counters". Hp ice and SD are aub optimal sets whose only purpose is cteaming, like using grass knot bisharp. If you people are arguing aegislash has no counters and thus should be banned, i can use the same logic to prove hydreigon is broken.

I'm with most of this, but I definitely wouldn't call SD sub optimal. Like, I really don't get this statement, as it puts more pressure on people predicting KS and can do serious damage vs plenty of teams, as well as coming with moves like iron head and head smash which can add to the unpredictability of Aegislash. Probably said this poorly for a fast mobile post, but sd is quite good imo

 

[Empress]

Replies in bold.

Prediction absolutely is a component of skill, though, so saying it doesn't "=" it is silly. I didn't mean literally... what I meant is that not even the best players will make the correct prediction 100% of the time. We're only human, after all, and prediction goes both ways.. The other part of skill I would reckon is in identifying and executing the best play available.

I don't know what you mean about "the same mons over and over" either, because frankly I think there are a number of ways to beat Aegislash that aren't terribly esoteric and out there. For a while I was using a defensive Venusaur, which beat it without much issue and was able to seed on the shield. Mamoswine is an elegant solution to both Aegi and Landorus-I, another metagame defining check. Weavile can knock it out, like you said, but does struggle with prediction if you don't want to have to make those (which, just from my point of view, is silly). Bisharp has no problem with Aegi if he has a tiny bit of damage or doesn't run Sacred Sword, and can take advantage of KS turns to Swords Dance. Hell, Serperior with HP ground can win if Aegi switches in. Having checks and counters such as these does not instantly make a mon not broken. Moreover, if you played XY when Aegi was still around and compared it to post-Aegi XY, the difference in diversity is night and day. The most notable thing is that Hawlucha, Starmie, Celebi, and Jirachi are no longer shitmons, but I could go all day about the differences.

To me, it's just a bit funky to say that it "blanket checks half the metagame" because the way I see it, the metagame is supposed to change based on the prominent threats. If Lati@s are a little rose, to me that's honestly fine - they don't "deserve" to be top OU threats any more than Mamoswine or whatever. Technically true, but if a mon checks the vast majority of the metagame, it is potentially overcentralizing. Couple that with all of the other aspects of Aegi (too lazy to list 'em all) and you have a monster on your hands. Nobody is saying Latios and Latias are broken; please don't compare apples to oranges.

 

[teal6]

Replies in bold.

I think you are misunderstanding mean, so apologies if I'm not coming across very well. I did not mean to imply that the Latis are broken - but you made my point more above when referencing Celebi/Hawlucha - they don't have any "right" to be OU and/or not shit, basically. So the inclusion of these mons in the metagame isn't necessarily a +, or at least it can't "factually" be stated to be. I am unsure if I'm coming across clearly with this line of thought, so if I'm not please let me know.

edit One additional thought I'd like to leave on this post is in regard to "checking the vast majority of the metagame". I think this is a wild overestimation of Aegi's abilities, and if you try and use it in that way you will be playing 5-6 in short order.

 

[radianthero156]

Bisharp was seen a few times using gknot in some xy ou tours, because stall teams commonly relied on quagsire to beat it.

As for why i think hp ice and sd are sub optimal moves, i'll start with hp ice. sdef Gliscor is the only reason hp ice would be used in a battle. what if the opp doesn't have it? then congratulations, you're running an aegislash with 3 attacks. if there is a Gliscor, you're relying on having rocks on as well as luck on damage rolls, otherwise it'll just keep roosting to stall you out anyways, or just kill you since you're in blade form. hp ice kills garchomp i guess, but shadow ball 2hkoes it, and if garchomp (a mon used in the early game without recovery, vulnerability to spikes/tspikes and usually with no leftovers) is their only response to your aegislash, then they're so weak to shadow ball you'll just win the game by saving aegi to spam shadow ball in the mid-game lol.

SD is even worse in my eyes because it's just a worse version of the standard offensive aegislash, because it gives a free switch to ground mons instead of 2hkoing them. "oh but i'll save it for the late game when grounds are weakened haha"; then you're preventing yourself from sending aegi on mid-game to abuse its typing against threats like gross, altaria, thundy, fighters, etc, so good luck dealing with those.

 

[MZ]

Bisharp was seen a few times usin iusing gknot in some xy ou tours, because stall teams commonly relied on quagsire to beat it.

As for why i think hp ice and sd are sub optimal moves, i'll start with hp ice. sdef Gliscor is the only reason hp ice would be used in a battle. what if the opp doesn't have it? then congratulations, you're running an aegislash with 3 attacks. if there is a Gliscor, you're relying on having rocks on as well as luck on damage rolls, otherwise it'll just keep roosting to stall you out anyways, or just kill you since you're in blade form. hp ice kills garchomp i guess, but shadow ball 2hkoes it, and if garchomp (a mon used in the early game without recovery, vulnerability to spikes/tspikes and usually with no leftovers) is their only response to your aegislash, then they're so weak to shadow ball you'll just win the game by saving aegi to spam shadow ball in the mid-game lol.

SD is even worse in my eyes because it's just a worse version of the standard offensive aegislash, because it gives a free switch to ground mons instead of 2hkoing them. "oh but i'll save it for the late game when grounds are weakened haha"; then you're preventing yourself from sending aegi on mid-game to abuse its typing against threats like gross, altaria, thundy, fighters, etc, so good luck dealing with those.

Tbf I only ever used AB SD so idk how good straight SD works, air balloon made the whole free ground switch impossible and was a great check to things like RP lando-I, but I can see why it would suck without AB

 

[Martin]

SD is even worse in my eyes because it's just a worse version of the standard offensive aegislash, because it gives a free switch to ground mons instead of 2hkoing them. "oh but i'll save it for the late game when grounds are weakened haha"; then you're preventing yourself from sending aegi on mid-game to abuse its typing against threats like gross, altaria, thundy, fighters, etc, so good luck dealing with those.

If you are using SD Aegislash like standard Aegi you are doing something horribly, horribly wrong. Bulky SD Aegislash is suboptimal, Fast SD Aegislash, however, isn't. Fast SD Aegislash is a great way to clean up v.s. slower teams, as well as being a great way of catching its common SpD switchins. Hell: a good SD Aegislash doesn't even carry King's Shield as SD Aegi needs all the coverage/utility options it can get, and KS isn't a particularly useful tool if you're coming in to clean. SD Aegi rips balance, defense and bulky offense apart in the late game, and its offensive nature also means that it is a good fit for HO.

 

[oryxslayer]

Bisharp was seen a few times usin iusing gknot in some xy ou tours, because stall teams commonly relied on quagsire to beat it.

As for why i think hp ice and sd are sub optimal moves, i'll start with hp ice. sdef Gliscor is the only reason hp ice would be used in a battle. what if the opp doesn't have it? then congratulations, you're running an aegislash with 3 attacks. if there is a Gliscor, you're relying on having rocks on as well as luck on damage rolls, otherwise it'll just keep roosting to stall you out anyways, or just kill you since you're in blade form. hp ice kills garchomp i guess, but shadow ball 2hkoes it, and if garchomp (a mon used in the early game without recovery, vulnerability to spikes/tspikes and usually with no leftovers) is their only response to your aegislash, then they're so weak to shadow ball you'll just win the game by saving aegi to spam shadow ball in the mid-game lol.

SD is even worse in my eyes because it's just a worse version of the standard offensive aegislash, because it gives a free switch to ground mons instead of 2hkoing them. "oh but i'll save it for the late game when grounds are weakened haha"; then you're preventing yourself from sending aegi on mid-game to abuse its typing against threats like gross, altaria, thundy, fighters, etc, so good luck dealing with those.

The fact is, you are right, HP ice is generally a sub-optimal coverage move. However, its a lure. Lure moves are supposed to either be sub-optimal choices nobody expects that can demolish a switch-in, like that magma trapper solarbeam heatran. Running a lure means you have to make that sacrifice, using a moveslot to hit an switch-in that may or may not be on the opposing team. However, if somebody is running spdef gliscor, it is the most solid aegis check and it is most likely the opponents way of putting aegis down, but if you can remove that, aegis goes ham. The point is that HP ice is supposed to be sub-optimal and it is, but it has a niche, comparable to a pokemon in the C rankings, like mega camerupt, but people don't expect it and they won't prepare for it. I won't argue for SD aegis as people have already done that.

 

[thesecondbest]

If you are using SD Aegislash like standard Aegi you are doing something horribly, horribly wrong. Bulky SD Aegislash is suboptimal, Fast SD Aegislash, however, isn't. Fast SD Aegislash is a great way to clean up v.s. slower teams, as well as being a great way of catching its common SpD switchins. Hell: a good SD Aegislash doesn't even carry King's Shield as SD Aegi needs all the coverage/utility options it can get, and KS isn't a particularly useful tool if you're coming in to clean. SD Aegi rips balance, defense and bulky offense apart in the late game, and its offensive nature also means that it is a good fit for HO.

The problem with fast sd aegi/ is if you run no priority, any offensive mon still eats you alive, as fast sd kings shield sounds really dumb. And even vs stall, head smash means you commit suicide with that whopping 60 base hp stat. I used sd aegi/ on the ladder for a bit and found it to be pretty bad, switching to the lo shadow ball set. IMO, the LO shadow ball set is the only threatening one.
And for hp ice, it only hits gliscor and chomp, and radianthero made a good point- roost gliscor will gain hp over time since it then becomes the same strength as shadow ball as they lose the flying type. It's usable, but saying things are forced to run eq when you are using hp ice to hit a total of two mons is pretty preposterous. eq is a good coverage move vs stuff like heatran too.

 

[oryxslayer]

The problem with fast sd aegi/ is if you run no priority, any offensive mon still eats you alive, as fast sd kings shield sounds really dumb. And even vs stall, head smash means you commit suicide with that whopping 60 base hp stat. I used sd aegi/ on the ladder for a bit and found it to be pretty bad, switching to the lo shadow ball set. IMO, the LO shadow ball set is the only threatening one.
And for hp ice, it only hits gliscor and chomp, and radianthero made a good point- roost gliscor will gain hp over time since it then becomes the same strength as shadow ball as they lose the flying type. It's usable, but saying things are forced to run eq when you are using hp ice to hit a total of two mons is pretty preposterous. eq is a good coverage move vs stuff like heatran too.

The difference between things being force to run EQ for aegislash and aegislash running HP ice is that HP ice is a lure. Aegislash doesn't need the ice coverage to be successful, it just sometimes appreciates it vs gliscor and chomp. However, things like mega pinsir, mega metagross, and mega gardevoir being forced to run EQ/Sball is much different, because they are giving up superior fighting type coverage that already hits heatran for EQ in meta/pinsir's case which means megagross is walled by ferrothorn and pinsir by skarmory, just because the threat of aegislash exists. With gardevoir, being forced to run garbage coverage is a terrible thing, with shadow ball only hitting psychic types who got bopped by hyper voice in the first place. The point I'm trying to make is that HP ice is a lure move and can't be compared to being forced to give up superior coverage just because one pokemon is a constant presence.

 

[Angelique]

The metagame is supposed to evolve. We can't say adapting to aegi/ is bad. Like napty says, "If Garchomp was banned from OU and suddenly retested, people would say it is broken while they would just need to put Ice Punch on this and Ice Punch on that." The metagame adapts to what's in it. If we ban diancie and then bring it back, people will say "oh, now all teams need a scizor or ferro, and it can start running hp fire omg how de we beat this thing it's so hard to switch into ;(" Except aegi/ isnt as threatening because it's slower (although granted, diance is a mega)

Wow, psychics disappear because people use lopunny? dang, thats genius. Also loppuny is so overrated, it doesnt necessarily beat aegi/ unless it has encore. otherwise you get the minus 2 or switch out on aegi/ neither of which sounds too nice. And people aren't going to stay in again and take the -2 hjk. No, your opponent can switch. So loppuny doesn't even beat aegi/ without encore. so this is a really stupid argument.

If lando's check are limited to psychics you can run knock off. Lando is threateing without aegi/ support, and bisharp is a better pursuit trapper overall. People are crying out for a lando suspect regardless, it has nothing to do with aegi/.

lando has no hard counters besides cresselia, talon can set up easily and can beat its supposed counters with natural gift op. Rotom has so many different sets it can run. All of these are just as threatening as aegi/ is. and your last sentence doesnt make much sense. No gards run hp rock, but many run shadow ball, not just to beat aegi/ but because they tend to have an extra moveslot regardless. and why can talonflame not fire off an attack in that scenario? talon even gets u turn, making the role of a pivot easier to fill. See the flaws in your arguments yet?


i already talked about why loppuny is not broken, but let's see why fairies and psychics are still usable.
Oh, that's right. You can switch out on aegi/. GENIUS! You say how chomp is still usable in the current tier, well psychics and fairies will still be good in the aegi/ metagame. You give no reasoning as to why they wont.
Rotom, lando, clef, tran, and gliscor all have so many roles. Want me to list them? Clefable and gliscor in particular have a shit ton of viable sets, and even heatran can run stuff like magma trapper or spdef. Does that make it broken? aegi/ can run similar sets to heatran, and i think that is a great comparison. Neither one is broken. So you rejecting that comparison doesn't have much ground, but I've rambled long enough regardless.

Yeah, you can switch out on Aegi...but since that's the obvious move, the Aegi user can just set up that turn and put you in an even worse condition, or they could just ding whatever you switch in. Again, I'm not the most talented battler or theorymonner, but it seems to me that as long as Aegi is alive, it can easily take advantage of any psychic/fairy type on the opposing team, since they can't do much against it.

 

[MZ]

The problem with fast sd aegi/ is if you run no priority, any offensive mon still eats you alive, as fast sd kings shield sounds really dumb. And even vs stall, head smash means you commit suicide with that whopping 60 base hp stat. I used sd aegi/ on the ladder for a bit and found it to be pretty bad, switching to the lo shadow ball set. IMO, the LO shadow ball set is the only threatening one.
And for hp ice, it only hits gliscor and chomp, and radianthero made a good point- roost gliscor will gain hp over time since it then becomes the same strength as shadow ball as they lose the flying type. It's usable, but saying things are forced to run eq when you are using hp ice to hit a total of two mons is pretty preposterous. eq is a good coverage move vs stuff like heatran too.

I don't get people bashing head smash. Yes you get worn down fast, but it basically destroys the more solid Aegislash answers being Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and even tornadus-t trying to heat wave and get regen. And as for the "If you run no priority" that's like saying "if megamence doesn't run DD and frustration it's easy to stop". Sd doesn't have to run Ks, but the threat of it is still there, and forces more careful playing. It may not be as immediately powerful as special, but it performs another role very well while still doing that whole blanket check thing.

 

[Norne]

I don't get people bashing head smash. Yes you get worn down fast, but it basically destroys the more solid Aegislash answers being Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and even tornadus-t trying to heat wave and get regen. And as for the "If you run no priority" that's like saying "if megamence doesn't run DD and frustration it's easy to stop". Sd doesn't have to run Ks, but the threat of it is still there, and forces more careful playing. It may not be as immediately powerful as special, but it performs another role very well while still doing that whole blanket check thing.

I have to agree here, head smash is a suicide move, there is no denying. But scoring such a solid hit with a neutral coverage move with a pokemon that grabs momentum like nobody's bussiness isn't bad, specially if you could potentially eliminate common hazard removers or answers to other pokemon that can't afford to be preserved in Aegislash presence.

Head smash has its role, people shouldn't undersell it.

 

[teal6]

Okay, just finished reqs so I will consider these final thoughts (though, of course, if someone posts an argument that sways me I will obviously feel free to change, being too adamant about one viewpoint is silly IMO):

• Aegislash is a centralizing mon
  • However, he's not any more centralizing than any other S ranked mon currently is - if you don't have a way to beat Landorus I, Keldeo, Altaria or Metagross you are going to lose the game when one shows up. That's what being an S ranked mon means, you are a win condition very often or an incredible early-to-mid-game piece.
• Aegislash doesn't "remove" too much from the tier
  • Though some choices become less viable with Aegislash in the tier, others gain viability. There are plenty of mons that don't have too much difficulty dealing with Aegislash, and offer more to the team than "just" being a check/counter to him. An example I used before was Mega Venusaur. MVenu can definitely handle Aegislash, but also serves as an Altaria and Lopunny check. This is important because this is one big difference between a broken mon and others to me - for example, when Mega Salamence was around, people were legitimately using Avalugg. His role was solely to be an answer to Mega Salamence, and he offered almost nothing else. That's the mark of a broken pokemon to me, whereas Aegislash doesn't warrant those kinds of answers.
• Aegislash is rarely a win condition
  • At team preview, when formulating how you are going to win the game, I don't think very often someone is saying "I remove this and this and sweep with Aegi". Granted, this is not necessarily a mark of being broken (the Deo's were almost never win conditions, either) but it is very often a signal
• You don't need to run Aegislash to have a fully functioning team
  • Simply put, he's not a mon (in my opinion) that you necessarily and always gain more out of using than not using
• Some of the mons he was brought down to ostensibly "check" can run coverage for him that deals with him quite well
  • Mega Metagross with EQ, same with Altaria (or FB), etc.

Now, when reading the above, please remember that these are all points with the caveat implied: "this is one of the best mons in the tier". Points against him, in short, would be that he manages to be so good without having the opportunity cost of a mega, that he can run (at least in my estimation) 3 sets viably, and that he is centralizing to a degree (though as I said before, I don't think terribly so). When weighing the fun of the tier with Aegi in it to without, I would definitely say that having him in it is better. Games are not decided by matchup just as much, but Aegi only seems to offer one "reset button" per match. Thinking back to older versions of OU that I enjoyed, a game not being decided in the first several turns has always been... "more fun" for me. Previously, this was accomplished by having no team preview, these days that isn't the case though.

So all in all, having one mon added back in the tier that I think enables a higher level of competitive play without necessarily breaking the existing competitive structures is a net benefit for the tier and as such will be voting no ban on Aegislash.

 

[oryxslayer]

Okay, just finished reqs so I will consider these final thoughts (though, of course, if someone posts an argument that sways me I will obviously feel free to change, being too adamant about one viewpoint is silly IMO):

• Aegislash is a centralizing mon
  • However, he's not any more centralizing than any other S ranked mon currently is - if you don't have a way to beat Landorus I, Keldeo, Altaria or Metagross you are going to lose the game when one shows up. That's what being an S ranked mon means, you are a win condition very often or an incredible early-to-mid-game piece.
• Aegislash doesn't "remove" too much from the tier
  • Though some choices become less viable with Aegislash in the tier, others gain viability. There are plenty of mons that don't have too much difficulty dealing with Aegislash, and offer more to the team than "just" being a check/counter to him. An example I used before was Mega Venusaur. MVenu can definitely handle Aegislash, but also serves as an Altaria and Lopunny check. This is important because this is one big difference between a broken mon and others to me - for example, when Mega Salamence was around, people were legitimately using Avalugg. His role was solely to be an answer to Mega Salamence, and he offered almost nothing else. That's the mark of a broken pokemon to me, whereas Aegislash doesn't warrant those kinds of answers.
• Aegislash is rarely a win condition
  • At team preview, when formulating how you are going to win the game, I don't think very often someone is saying "I remove this and this and sweep with Aegi". Granted, this is not necessarily a mark of being broken (the Deo's were almost never win conditions, either) but it is very often a signal
• You don't need to run Aegislash to have a fully functioning team
  • Simply put, he's not a mon (in my opinion) that you necessarily and always gain more out of using than not using
• Some of the mons he was brought down to ostensibly "check" can run coverage for him that deals with him quite well
  • Mega Metagross with EQ, same with Altaria (or FB), etc.

Now, when reading the above, please remember that these are all points with the caveat implied: "this is one of the best mons in the tier". Points against him, in short, would be that he manages to be so good without having the opportunity cost of a mega, that he can run (at least in my estimation) 3 sets viably, and that he is centralizing to a degree (though as I said before, I don't think terribly so). When weighing the fun of the tier with Aegi in it to without, I would definitely say that having him in it is better. Games are not decided by matchup just as much, but Aegi only seems to offer one "reset button" per match. Thinking back to older versions of OU that I enjoyed, a game not being decided in the first several turns has always been... "more fun" for me. Previously, this was accomplished by having no team preview, these days that isn't the case though.

So all in all, having one mon added back in the tier that I think enables a higher level of competitive play without necessarily breaking the existing competitive structures is a net benefit for the tier and as such will be voting no ban on Aegislash.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with some of the points you brought up. While it is true that if you don't prepare for m-alt, megagross, lando, and keldeo, you will lose, the difference is that aegislash beats its checks easily. Another difference is that at least 2 of the s rank mons have hard counters (m-venu>keldeo, cresselia>lando i), and megagross/m-alt have very solid checks. However, aegislash's checks are not solid at all and can all be taken down with the right coverage move or set: Hippo<subtoxic, Gliscor<HP ice, Garchomp<Repeated strong hits, Mandi<Head Smash, Bisharp<sacred sword, Mega venusaur<SD/LO. Also, He is way more centralizing that those s-rank mons, because he has fantastic defenses, and isn't a mega, something that no s-rank can claim to be, while also having killer offenses, meaning that giving it a free turn is awful for you, which is why many fighting/psychic/fairy types have lost a lot of viability. Next, you say aegislash is not a win-condition, which is completely true, unless you are running the SD set. However, aegislash is not supposed to be a win condition, instead being a midgame breaker/blanket check. You don't say aegislash is going to win me the game, you say how will aegis help landorus, mlop, keldeo, etc. win the game. Next, you say you don't need aegislash to build a functioning team, which again, is completely true. However, there is absolutely zero reason to not run aegislash as it doesn't fit any restrictions set on other pokemon (mega evo, needs a specific item, has niche roles, very passive, very frail, etc.). It has no opportunity cost, and because it gives you an answer to half the game in one slot, and it can play on every style, why not run it? In your final paragraph, you state that games are not decided by match-up and you don't lose in the first few turns, which may be true, but I believe aegislash introduces a new matchup issue. For example, you bring a spdef hippo on your team, as it is a reliable aegislash answer. But, you find that in your battle, the opposing aegislash is subtoxic. Your aegis check has been neutered because of matchup, so while you may not lose the game in the first few turns, you may lose it in the midgame turns, and not because you got played, but because of matchup. Also, while matchup is a problem, we can't expect it to ever get better. I've stated before that we have about 50-70 viable pokemon right now, and we will probably have around 60-80 next game, and that won't ever change, so match-up is something we will simply have to deal with as players, not as a community, by building solid teams that have few weaknesses, that they can get around, which is possible. Anyway, sorry for the essay, but I wanted to refute your points in detail.

 

[WebBowser]

oryxslayer fyi, neither Keldeo or Lando-I are megas. The rest of your post is fairly valid though.

 

[Machi]

Okay, just finished reqs so I will consider these final thoughts (though, of course, if someone posts an argument that sways me I will obviously feel free to change, being too adamant about one viewpoint is silly IMO):

• Aegislash is a centralizing mon
  • However, he's not any more centralizing than any other S ranked mon currently is - if you don't have a way to beat Landorus I, Keldeo, Altaria or Metagross you are going to lose the game when one shows up. That's what being an S ranked mon means, you are a win condition very often or an incredible early-to-mid-game piece.
• Aegislash doesn't "remove" too much from the tier
  • Though some choices become less viable with Aegislash in the tier, others gain viability. There are plenty of mons that don't have too much difficulty dealing with Aegislash, and offer more to the team than "just" being a check/counter to him. An example I used before was Mega Venusaur. MVenu can definitely handle Aegislash, but also serves as an Altaria and Lopunny check. This is important because this is one big difference between a broken mon and others to me - for example, when Mega Salamence was around, people were legitimately using Avalugg. His role was solely to be an answer to Mega Salamence, and he offered almost nothing else. That's the mark of a broken pokemon to me, whereas Aegislash doesn't warrant those kinds of answers.
• Aegislash is rarely a win condition
  • At team preview, when formulating how you are going to win the game, I don't think very often someone is saying "I remove this and this and sweep with Aegi". Granted, this is not necessarily a mark of being broken (the Deo's were almost never win conditions, either) but it is very often a signal
• You don't need to run Aegislash to have a fully functioning team
  • Simply put, he's not a mon (in my opinion) that you necessarily and always gain more out of using than not using
• Some of the mons he was brought down to ostensibly "check" can run coverage for him that deals with him quite well
  • Mega Metagross with EQ, same with Altaria (or FB), etc.

Now, when reading the above, please remember that these are all points with the caveat implied: "this is one of the best mons in the tier". Points against him, in short, would be that he manages to be so good without having the opportunity cost of a mega, that he can run (at least in my estimation) 3 sets viably, and that he is centralizing to a degree (though as I said before, I don't think terribly so).

My reservation about this post is that it kinda misses the point that what makes Aegis far more unique than many non-mega S class threats, or many of the threats in general, is that he is a hybrid of many good things compressed into one. He may not reach the level of an offensive threat but he certainly comes close with 150/150 offenses to back what is already known as one of the better defensive typings, offering mixed defenses and a unique utility move in KS. As for support well you get that just by his ability to blanket check a large amount of threats, which is far better explained by many users in this thread already in the way it makes already dangerous threats even more so by depressing the use of certain checks or what have you.

His level of role compression is what pushes him over the edge, a role compression akin to a mega but obviously without the same downside, and that is what needs to be considered rather than trying to figure out whether he is simply an offensive or defensive or supportive threat - he simply put is all three as he has the movepool + typing + stats to pull it off.

I'd like to think of him something like a jack of all trades and master of none but I can't really liken him to Clefable in that manner, who used to carry such a title, in so much that his presence is more felt in the tier to the point that many things try to fill in Aegis' void. Meaning his role is far more unique than a simple master of utilities as it can't easily be replaced. In so much that his popular sets at least are not exactly lacking in viability, and can be tailor fit to a team well thanks to how much of a hybrid Aegis is.

It isn't exactly accurate to consider him under simply the lens of "Aegislash is rarely a win condition" or "This is important because this is one big difference between a broken mon and others to me - for example, when Mega Salamence was around, people were legitimately using Avalugg. His role was solely to be an answer to Mega Salamence, and he offered almost nothing else. That's the mark of a broken pokemon to me, whereas Aegislash doesn't warrant those kinds of answers." as these two points focus too much on his offensive prowess rather than a hybrid.

I mean what about his defensive utility (value of his typing and mixed defenses along with offenses making him far less exploitable - while having immunity to one status and not always neutered by the other two)? Or supportive function (role compression)? Both of which are just as important precisely because no other mon offers it to the same degree while maintaining the ability to be offensively threatening, it may not sweep but it certainly nothing to scoff at. I'm getting more of the vibe that he was skewed more heavily under offensive characteristics.

 

[pika pal]

oryxslayer fyi, neither Keldeo or Lando-I are megas. The rest of your post is fairly valid though.

I think he meant the entire criteria he mentioned for S-Rank, which was "fantastic defenses, and isn't a mega... while also having killer offenses."

While Lando-I and Keldeo aren't Megas and have good offenses, their defenses are nothing to bring wallbreakers for. Aegislash is bulky enough to function as a tank/wall against half the metagame without sacrificing either offensive presence, the mega slot, or any particularly crippling Achilles' Heel.

 

[eden]

Now that I finally have reqs, I think a post about Aegislash is in order. People talk about how centralizing it is,how broken it is,but really is it? Even the last time Aegislash was banned it wasn't by a super majority so that really does bring up questions about it's suspect worthiness in the first place. I for one feel that it helps balance the game out. The metagame before the suspect test was full of Metagross teams and Diancie teams, but now it seems to be full of MLopunny,Bisharp,Aegislash HO,so I can't really say that introduicing this Pokemon was widened our metagame, but it has reduced concerns over losing solely due to matchup. Look at some of the SPL replays and you'll see that some people had no way to win when the opponent simply brought a single mon. I don't think that Pokemon should be a game where you lose solely based on the Pokemon your opponent brings and Aegilslash definately helps because it blanket checks a significant portion of the OU metagame, if that makes some currently viable Pokemon less viable so be it. I don't want to instalose to MGross just because I'm running offense,or MCross and its likes just because I have stall. Aegislash reduces stress on the player as a teambuilder so he can actually focus on the main part of the game, the battle itself. SO I'm gonna be voting for no ban.

 

[Alfalfa]

Now that I finally have reqs, I think a post about Aegislash is in order. People talk about how centralizing it is,how broken it is,but really is it? Even the last time Aegislash was banned it wasn't by a super majority so that really does bring up questions about it's suspect worthiness in the first place. I for one feel that it helps balance the game out. The metagame before the suspect test was full of Metagross teams and Diancie teams, but now it seems to be full of MLopunny Aegislash,so I can't really say that introduicing this Pokemon was widened our metagame, but it has reduced concerns over losing solely due to matchup. Look at some of the SPL replays and you'll see that some people had no way to win when the opponent simply brought a single mon. I don't think that Pokemon should be a game where you lose solely based on the Pokemon your opponent brings and Aegilslash definately helps because it blanket checks a significant portion of the OU metagame, if that makes some currently viable Pokemon less viable so be it. I don't want to instalose to MGross just because I'm running offense,or MCross and its likes just because I have stall. Aegislash reduces stress on the player as a teambuilder so he can actually focus on the main part of the game, the battle itself. SO I'm gonna be voting for no ban.

I think it has been illustrated multiple times that team match up is the result of having a well built-team. Some Pokemon lack concrete checks for certain playstyles, but these teams are still capable of getting around it. Aegislash does not reduce stress on a player because the player now has to find new checks for the Pokemon that got a lot better because of Aegislash easily removing their checks. This has been illustrated several times, and arguments similar to yours have been shot down multiple times in this thread.