Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Acast]

OU is suspecting Landorus-Incarnate. I don't want to imply that our metagames are similar to each other, but perhaps we could take a hint from them since nerfing Ground is such a hot topic lately.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-4-genie-in-a-bottle.3538596/

I am not arguing for or against a Landorus-I ban. I am simply informing you all of slightly relevant current events and suggesting a possibility.

 

[Sour Apples]

Ok are you guys lost? Why the hell isnt Charizard X banned on Flying, and MAYBE fire? Like seriously, this thing can sweep teams, such as Bug, Grass, Steel, Poison, Electric, ice, can damage fighting, and other types that i might not now get affected by Char X. You guys banned zapdos on flying, yet flying is still number 1. Isnt your job to balance the metagame? Why is flying still 1? Just ban Char x, dont even say u need it to counter ice because you will still have Charizard Y and Articuno. Heck, flying reks the crap out of electric. Isnt it supposed to be vice versa? They have Dragonite, gliscor, lando, Char x, Altaria, and thundy to rek electric. Remove the Char x and things will be a little better for electric, but still not a high chance of winning due to the rest of those flying pokemon. If electric cant beat flying, and sometimes struggles with certain water teams, then electric basically has no advantages in this metagame. All im asking to ban Char X so it wouldnt be guaranteed that flying beats electric 100% of the time.

Now, tell me what pokemon does bug have to counter Char x? Oh right, none. They may slow char x down, but they cant get rid of me completely and he will come back to destroy bug.

What does grass have for Char x? Ah right, nothing again.

What does steel have for Char x? Only thing i can think of is Heatran with balloon, assuming char x's only attacking moves are flare blitz/fire punch and EQ. If the heatran's balloon is gone, gg. Dont say scarf exca cuz ddance makes char x outspeed everything.

What does Electric have for char x? Stupidest response is usually "para it" HELLO THEY HAVE ARTICUNO/TOGEKISS HEAL BELL WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW

What does Ice do to Char x? Avalugg can "stall"(sike) it maybe but it doesnt stop char x completely. Same deal with bug.

What does fighting have for Char x? I personally dont know anything about fighting, but once char x has 2 dances up, its gg.

Same deal with all the other types that i dont know about. Why isnt he banned yet? You want to balance this metagame yet you don't even ban the broken pokemon, yeah ok that makes perfect sense.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 402-474 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cradily's are usually specially defensive, so im not gonna calc physical defensive. Yep, cradily can eat up a flare blitz real good.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 166-196 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming cradily is physical defensive which i doubt it is. Also, Charizard can just keep setting up Ddances and sweep, or just outright kill the shuckle.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow very bulky. Also, this assumes physical defensive mega saur, and only Char X at +1. Remember, Char X can just keep setting up on other pokemon or something.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 444-524 (132.9 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blah blah blah sturdy whirlwind, but like i said, that does nothing to Char X as he will come back with revenge and sweep. Also, dont forget flying has Skarm as well just in case excadrill shows up.


+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 360-426 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Nope, gg ice. Avalugg cant even do anything back to Char X anyway because Roost, Ddance, Flare Blitz, EQ is the usual set and it will just keep taking hits and roosting and killing just like how it sweeps every type i listed.

+1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 360-424 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Again, lanturn does nothing back to Char x. Dont give me that bs para arguement cuz like i said, heal bell exists and char x will come back with revenge and sweep.

Also, if you're wondering why i didnt calc rotom-w, its because he does nothing to char x even tho char x does nothing back. Char x is just gonna outstall Rotom's hydro pump PP's by keep roosting. 16 PP>8 PP. Therefore, rotom does nothing to Char X.

Again, there are many other types out there that get rekt by char x, but these are the only ones i know.

tl;dr Char x is too broken for this metagame and needs an instant ban

 

[RZL]

Ok are you guys lost? Why the hell isnt Charizard X banned on Flying, and MAYBE fire? Like seriously, this thing can sweep teams, such as Bug, Grass, Steel, Poison, Electric, ice, can damage fighting, and other types that i might not now get affected by Char X. You guys banned zapdos on flying, yet flying is still number 1. Isnt your job to balance the metagame? Why is flying still 1? Just ban Char x, dont even say u need it to counter ice because you will still have Charizard Y and Articuno. Heck, flying reks the crap out of electric. Isnt it supposed to be vice versa? They have Dragonite, gliscor, lando, Char x, Altaria, and thundy to rek electric. Remove the Char x and things will be a little better for electric, but still not a high chance of winning due to the rest of those flying pokemon. If electric cant beat flying, and sometimes struggles with certain water teams, then electric basically has no advantages in this metagame. All im asking to ban Char X so it wouldnt be guaranteed that flying beats electric 100% of the time.

Now, tell me what pokemon does bug have to counter Char x? Oh right, none. They may slow char x down, but they cant get rid of me completely and he will come back to destroy bug.

What does grass have for Char x? Ah right, nothing again.

What does steel have for Char x? Only thing i can think of is Heatran with balloon, assuming char x's only attacking moves are flare blitz/fire punch and EQ. If the heatran's balloon is gone, gg. Dont say scarf exca cuz ddance makes char x outspeed everything.

What does Electric have for char x? Stupidest response is usually "para it" HELLO THEY HAVE ARTICUNO/TOGEKISS HEAL BELL WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW

What does Ice do to Char x? Avalugg can "stall"(sike) it maybe but it doesnt stop char x completely. Same deal with bug.

What does fighting have for Char x? I personally dont know anything about fighting, but once char x has 2 dances up, its gg.

Same deal with all the other types that i dont know about. Why isnt he banned yet? You want to balance this metagame yet you don't even ban the broken pokemon, yeah ok that makes perfect sense.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 402-474 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cradily's are usually specially defensive, so im not gonna calc physical defensive. Yep, cradily can eat up a flare blitz real good.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 166-196 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming cradily is physical defensive which i doubt it is. Also, Charizard can just keep setting up Ddances and sweep, or just outright kill the shuckle.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow very bulky. Also, this assumes physical defensive mega saur, and only Char X at +1. Remember, Char X can just keep setting up on other pokemon or something.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 444-524 (132.9 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blah blah blah sturdy whirlwind, but like i said, that does nothing to Char X as he will come back with revenge and sweep. Also, dont forget flying has Skarm as well just in case excadrill shows up.


+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 360-426 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Nope, gg ice. Avalugg cant even do anything back to Char X anyway because Roost, Ddance, Flare Blitz, EQ is the usual set and it will just keep taking hits and roosting and killing just like how it sweeps every type i listed.

+1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 360-424 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Again, lanturn does nothing back to Char x. Dont give me that bs para arguement cuz like i said, heal bell exists and char x will come back with revenge and sweep.

Also, if you're wondering why i didnt calc rotom-w, its because he does nothing to char x even tho char x does nothing back. Char x is just gonna outstall Rotom's hydro pump PP's by keep roosting. 16 PP>8 PP. Therefore, rotom does nothing to Char X.

Again, there are many other types out there that get rekt by char x, but these are the only ones i know.

tl;dr Char x is too broken for this metagame and needs an instant ban

You make a very good point.

I will just eliminate the chance for it to be banned on Fire. Charizard is used on 97.04% of all Fire Monotype teams. Within said usage Charizarditex is only used 27.1% of the time, and Charizarditey is used 72.2% of the time, therefore Mega Charizard Y is the highly preferred between the two.

I definitely agree that Charizarditex should be banned on Flying types as, it inhibits Bug-, Ice-, Psychic-, Electric-, and Grass-type monos. MegaZard X forces Psychic to run T-Wave Slowbro. Bug needs to get lucky, and paralyze it then, hit it hard. I am not so sure what the others can really do.

 

[TM93]

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow very bulky. Also, this assumes physical defensive mega saur, and only Char X at +1. Remember, Char X can just keep setting up on other pokemon or something.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 360-426 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Nope, gg ice. Avalugg cant even do anything back to Char X anyway because Roost, Ddance, Flare Blitz, EQ is the usual set and it will just keep taking hits and roosting and killing just like how it sweeps every type i listed.

I'm just going to focus on these two here. Starting with Ice.

We've established by now that Ice is not a good type defensively, nor is Grass, I'm not saying it's fair, but adding a Pokemon to the list of Scizor and Medicham that absolutely destroy Ice unless you bring Froslass in to sack it is nothing particularly noteworthy. Avalugg still has the potential to Revenge Kill if it's carrying something like Rock Slide or EQ (forget what it gets) after Charizard has taken a massive amount of it's own HP down with Flare Blitz.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 500-590 (127.2 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Sturdy Saves.

Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 150-178 (50.5 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

This is a more-common Specially Defensive Avalugg, so Charizard is by default taking a whopping 45% of it's HP in raw damage. Then gets put into a terrifying KO Range where it almost becomes a coinflip to live. Charizard cannot Roost off the damage, as Avalugg is bare minimal dealing more than 50% of it's HP in damage. It's forced to go Offensive. Any player worth their brains will obviously not sack their Charizard by swapping out when it's at that low of HP only to get KOed before it can DD again, nor would they Flare Blitz again when it's essentially assuring their demise.

Priority at this point finishes off the big lizard. Ice however struggles with Fire to begin with, Flying is another issue, but there are other troublemons offensively. Ice is rife with Ice Shard abusers, plain and simple. This means sacking a Pokemon to handle it, but that's a fair bit of the downside of playing Ice as a type.

Megazard X is 100% manageable on Fire, where the only Spinners/Defoggers are itself, Torkoal, and Moltres. And of all of them, Torkoal is the one most used. Flying is the only time it should even be a potential issue.

Anyways, for that second one, Megasaur is 2HKOed but it can most certainly put the flaming felon on a timer between Leech Seed and Toxic, as well as Synthesis to make Charizard only kill itself faster with Flare Blitz. Against a Defensive set, Venusaur is making Charizard lose at most 106 of it's HP from Flare Blitz, and bare minimal of 90. That's about a third of it's Max HP. Toxic puts Charizard on a timer to sweep, where the player has to make a choice to swap it out for a Cleric, which is what, Togekiss on Flying and literally nothing on Fire? Charizard using Flare Blitz to KO Venusaur entirely also makes it lose almost half it's Max HP.

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 132-156 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO. That's actually pretty solid, Venusaur has a solid chance of making Charizard KO itself via Flare Blitz! It's not as safe as Avalugg as it doesn't deal more damage by default than Roost heals, but it's there.

This is also Grass vs either Fire or Flying. Or Poison I suppose. Grass by default is going to struggle against these teams whether Charizard is there or not, particularly Venusuar who has that nice little weakness to their main STAB where it lost that Weakness to Fire.

What I'm trying to get at is, no, it isn't fair, but Monotype is not inherently fair with matchups, and neither is Scizor vs Ice or Medicham vs Ice, or even Flying in GENERAL vs Grass.

I would be open to some type of reasoning to CONSIDER banning Charizardite X on Flying, but let's try and keep it reasonable with our arguments, it really isn't a threat when it's on Fire and a single instance of Stealth Rock will knock it down a peg to the point that a solid Wall will have it KOing itself with it's own Flare Blitz essentially, and Torkoal is fairly easy to play around.

If I've missed any major points, I apologize. But bar Flying vs Ice, this "Sack one thing to stop a total sweep" tactic is quite understandable when the Type you're facing has an inherent advantage against you.

 

[BibarelThump]

On top of your thoughts on Flying, I've always felt that Monotype should maintain their types post mega. Zard X, Mega Altaria, even Gyarados lose flying from mega.

 

[Sour Apples]

I'm just going to focus on these two here. Starting with Ice.

We've established by now that Ice is not a good type defensively, nor is Grass, I'm not saying it's fair, but adding a Pokemon to the list of Scizor and Medicham that absolutely destroy Ice unless you bring Froslass in to sack it is nothing particularly noteworthy. Avalugg still has the potential to Revenge Kill if it's carrying something like Rock Slide or EQ (forget what it gets) after Charizard has taken a massive amount of it's own HP down with Flare Blitz.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 500-590 (127.2 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Sturdy Saves.

Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 150-178 (50.5 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

This is a more-common Specially Defensive Avalugg, so Charizard is by default taking a whopping 45% of it's HP in raw damage. Then gets put into a terrifying KO Range where it almost becomes a coinflip to live. Charizard cannot Roost off the damage, as Avalugg is bare minimal dealing more than 50% of it's HP in damage. It's forced to go Offensive. Any player worth their brains will obviously not sack their Charizard by swapping out when it's at that low of HP only to get KOed before it can DD again, nor would they Flare Blitz again when it's essentially assuring their demise.

Priority at this point finishes off the big lizard. Ice however struggles with Fire to begin with, Flying is another issue, but there are other troublemons offensively. Ice is rife with Ice Shard abusers, plain and simple. This means sacking a Pokemon to handle it, but that's a fair bit of the downside of playing Ice as a type.

Megazard X is 100% manageable on Fire, where the only Spinners/Defoggers are itself, Torkoal, and Moltres. And of all of them, Torkoal is the one most used. Flying is the only time it should even be a potential issue.

Anyways, for that second one, Megasaur is 2HKOed but it can most certainly put the flaming felon on a timer between Leech Seed and Toxic, as well as Synthesis to make Charizard only kill itself faster with Flare Blitz. Against a Defensive set, Venusaur is making Charizard lose at most 106 of it's HP from Flare Blitz, and bare minimal of 90. That's about a third of it's Max HP. Toxic puts Charizard on a timer to sweep, where the player has to make a choice to swap it out for a Cleric, which is what, Togekiss on Flying and literally nothing on Fire? Charizard using Flare Blitz to KO Venusaur entirely also makes it lose almost half it's Max HP.

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 132-156 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO. That's actually pretty solid, Venusaur has a solid chance of making Charizard KO itself via Flare Blitz! It's not as safe as Avalugg as it doesn't deal more damage by default than Roost heals, but it's there.

This is also Grass vs either Fire or Flying. Or Poison I suppose. Grass by default is going to struggle against these teams whether Charizard is there or not, particularly Venusuar who has that nice little weakness to their main STAB where it lost that Weakness to Fire.

What I'm trying to get at is, no, it isn't fair, but Monotype is not inherently fair with matchups, and neither is Scizor vs Ice or Medicham vs Ice, or even Flying in GENERAL vs Grass.

I would be open to some type of reasoning to CONSIDER banning Charizardite X on Flying, but let's try and keep it reasonable with our arguments, it really isn't a threat when it's on Fire and a single instance of Stealth Rock will knock it down a peg to the point that a solid Wall will have it KOing itself with it's own Flare Blitz essentially, and Torkoal is fairly easy to play around.

If I've missed any major points, I apologize. But bar Flying vs Ice, this "Sack one thing to stop a total sweep" tactic is quite understandable when the Type you're facing has an inherent advantage against you.

Ok i doubt you even read my post.

>I would be open to some type of reasoning to CONSIDER banning Charizardite X on Flying
If you read my post, i already gave multiple reasonings.

Also, your point with avalugg is useless. Like i said, Charizard can just roost it away. Same to all ur other calcs that damage Charizard. Also, you seemed to ignore what Char X can do to electric, steel, bug, fighting, etc. So stop. You seem like a flying player to me that doesnt want ur broken uber Char X to go. Well too bad, i gave my reasonings for it to be banned and you know they are true. You know your Char X is broken. It has to be banned because it destroys many many many types. Go read my post again and then we will talk.

Also, @RZL, like i said, you cant para Char X because they have Articuno and Togekiss Heal Bell. Then Char X will come back and continue its sweep.

 

[Not Zer0]

Ok are you guys lost? Why the hell isnt Charizard X banned on Flying, and MAYBE fire? Like seriously, this thing can sweep teams, such as Bug, Grass, Steel, Poison, Electric, ice, can damage fighting, and other types that i might not now get affected by Char X. You guys banned zapdos on flying, yet flying is still number 1. Isnt your job to balance the metagame? Why is flying still 1? Just ban Char x, dont even say u need it to counter ice because you will still have Charizard Y and Articuno. Heck, flying reks the crap out of electric. Isnt it supposed to be vice versa? They have Dragonite, gliscor, lando, Char x, Altaria, and thundy to rek electric. Remove the Char x and things will be a little better for electric, but still not a high chance of winning due to the rest of those flying pokemon. If electric cant beat flying, and sometimes struggles with certain water teams, then electric basically has no advantages in this metagame. All im asking to ban Char X so it wouldnt be guaranteed that flying beats electric 100% of the time.

It doesn't? According to the April stats, 57.0% of the Flying vs Electric are won by Electric. Before you make a statement like that, do your research. Sure, not all flying runs Zard X, but when you do find one (60% of the time, 2nd most popular on flying), chances are it's Zard X. Assuming a majority of the electric wins are when they don't have Zard X (I find this very unlikely, realistically they have to have losses even w/o Zard X on field), that's still a number of players who have the know-how to deal with Zard X.

Now, tell me what pokemon does bug have to counter Char x? Oh right, none. They may slow char x down, but they cant get rid of me completely and he will come back to destroy bug.

What does grass have for Char x? Ah right, nothing again.

What does steel have for Char x? Only thing i can think of is Heatran with balloon, assuming char x's only attacking moves are flare blitz/fire punch and EQ. If the heatran's balloon is gone, gg. Dont say scarf exca cuz ddance makes char x outspeed everything.

What does Electric have for char x? Stupidest response is usually "para it" HELLO THEY HAVE ARTICUNO/TOGEKISS HEAL BELL WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW

What does Ice do to Char x? Avalugg can "stall"(sike) it maybe but it doesnt stop char x completely. Same deal with bug.

What does fighting have for Char x? I personally dont know anything about fighting, but once char x has 2 dances up, its gg.

Way to fault a pokemon for beating types it has super effective STAB to. Clearly by this logic we need to ban Kyurem-B and Scizor because all the mons on Dragon are OHKO'd by Kyurem and Rock and Ice get run through by Scizor. If we banned offensive threats simply for being good at killing types we'd have very few offensive threats in the metagame.

40% of Togekiss on top of the 60% being run have Heal Bell. Enough to be aware that it could be running it, yes, but I don't think that statistic is enough for you to say "well gg." Also 10% of flying users run Articuno, similar low percentage of Heal Bell, same argument as Toge.

I also see you faulting a setup sweeper for sweeping when it's setup. Nice one. Two turns of setup to get to +2, what else sweeps after two turns of setup? Most setup sweepers that aren't limited by a very hindering factor (lookin' at you Lucario, damn base 90 speed ;-;) can pull off a sweep or at least major dents at +2.

Fighting lays on such a relentless assault of scarves and high power attacks that I find it difficult to think that Zard wouldn't be hard pressed to get up 2 DDances, excluding circumstances such as hax.

As far as matchup goes, Ice usually beats Flying, Grass doesn't due to other circumstances on top of Zard (it's a really bad matchup, Grass only wins 30% of the time), Bug is still in the pretty decent range with a 40/60 and I think that's perfectly fine. Steel is about 50/50 with Flying and it has to deal with Landorus on top of Char X. Char x is no Talonflame.

Same deal with all the other types that i dont know about.

There are 18 types, and I can tell you that they don't all autolose to Zard.

Why isnt he banned yet? You want to balance this metagame yet you don't even ban the broken pokemon, yeah ok that makes perfect sense.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 402-474 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cradily's are usually specially defensive, so im not gonna calc physical defensive. Yep, cradily can eat up a flare blitz real good.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 166-196 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming cradily is physical defensive which i doubt it is. Also, Charizard can just keep setting up Ddances and sweep, or just outright kill the shuckle.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow very bulky. Also, this assumes physical defensive mega saur, and only Char X at +1. Remember, Char X can just keep setting up on other pokemon or something.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 444-524 (132.9 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blah blah blah sturdy whirlwind, but like i said, that does nothing to Char X as he will come back with revenge and sweep. Also, dont forget flying has Skarm as well just in case excadrill shows up.


+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 360-426 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Nope, gg ice. Avalugg cant even do anything back to Char X anyway because Roost, Ddance, Flare Blitz, EQ is the usual set and it will just keep taking hits and roosting and killing just like how it sweeps every type i listed.

+1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 360-424 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Again, lanturn does nothing back to Char x. Dont give me that bs para arguement cuz like i said, heal bell exists and char x will come back with revenge and sweep.

Also, if you're wondering why i didnt calc rotom-w, its because he does nothing to char x even tho char x does nothing back. Char x is just gonna outstall Rotom's hydro pump PP's by keep roosting. 16 PP>8 PP. Therefore, rotom does nothing to Char X.

Again, there are many other types out there that get rekt by char x, but these are the only ones i know.

tl;dr Char x is too broken for this metagame and needs an instant ban

I'd like to compliment you on only calcing versus things that are weak to fire STAB or have no retaliating measure. Like really? Shit guys, Zard x beats down on Avalugg. That pokemon can retaliate right? Avalugg isn't ice, right? Oh no, our fire type setup sweeper kills Steel types? Must be broken, not like other fire types don't do that too - looking at you, Infernape.
Purely based on statistics, I'm thoroughly unconvinced Zard X is broken or aggravates matchup because most types maintain a decent, mid-ranged w/l with Flying.
Zard has been firmly rooted in our metagame for over a year. People have found ways to deal with it. it's time for you to do that too. Zard X is a top-tier threat, and that's fine, and honestly if it was that broken I think it would have been our focus numerous times already, where instead we've opted to cover things such as Mega Medicham.

EDIT: TM sniping some of my arguments >.>

EDIT 2:

Ok i doubt you even read my post.

>I would be open to some type of reasoning to CONSIDER banning Charizardite X on Flying
If you read my post, i already gave multiple reasonings.

Also, your point with avalugg is useless. Like i said, Charizard can just roost it away. Same to all ur other calcs that damage Charizard. Also, you seemed to ignore what Char X can do to electric, steel, bug, fighting, etc. So stop. You seem like a flying player to me that doesnt want ur broken uber Char X to go. Well too bad, i gave my reasonings for it to be banned and you know they are true. You know your Char X is broken. It has to be banned because it destroys many many many types. Go read my post again and then we will talk.

Also, @RZL, like i said, you cant para Char X because they have Articuno and Togekiss Heal Bell. Then Char X will come back and continue its sweep.

Honestly, your mindset here is really toxic. You're just being an asshole because he properly countered your points and you can only retort by reiterating the same points he debunk'd. Let me drive this in here. Your logic is not infallible. You can be wrong. Don't reject points that contradict yours simply because they contradict.

 

[Sour Apples]

It doesn't? According to the April stats, 57.0% of the Flying vs Electric are won by Electric. Before you make a statement like that, do your research. Sure, not all flying runs Zard X, but when you do find one (60% of the time, 2nd most popular on flying), chances are it's Zard X. Assuming a majority of the electric wins are when they don't have Zard X (I find this very unlikely, realistically they have to have losses even w/o Zard X on field), that's still a number of players who have the know-how to deal with Zard X.



Way to fault a pokemon for beating types it has super effective STAB to. Clearly by this logic we need to ban Kyurem-B and Scizor because all the mons on Dragon are OHKO'd by Kyurem and Rock and Ice get run through by Scizor. If we banned offensive threats simply for being good at killing types we'd have very few offensive threats in the metagame.

40% of Togekiss on top of the 60% being run have Heal Bell. Enough to be aware that it could be running it, yes, but I don't think that statistic is enough for you to say "well gg." Also 10% of flying users run Articuno, similar low percentage of Heal Bell, same argument as Toge.

I also see you faulting a setup sweeper for sweeping when it's setup. Nice one. Two turns of setup to get to +2, what else sweeps after two turns of setup? Most setup sweepers that aren't limited by a very hindering factor (lookin' at you Lucario, damn base 90 speed ;-;) can pull off a sweep or at least major dents at +2.

Fighting lays on such a relentless assault of scarves and high power attacks that I find it difficult to think that Zard wouldn't be hard pressed to get up 2 DDances, excluding circumstances such as hax.

As far as matchup goes, Ice usually beats Flying, Grass doesn't due to other circumstances on top of Zard (it's a really bad matchup, Grass only wins 30% of the time), Bug is still in the pretty decent range with a 40/60 and I think that's perfectly fine. Steel is about 50/50 with Flying and it has to deal with Landorus on top of Char X. Char x is no Talonflame.


There are 18 types, and I can tell you that they don't all autolose to Zard.



I'd like to compliment you on only calcing versus things that are weak to fire STAB or have no retaliating measure. Like really? Shit guys, Zard x beats down on Avalugg. That pokemon can retaliate right? Avalugg isn't ice, right? Oh no, our fire type setup sweeper kills Steel types? Must be broken, not like other fire types don't do that too - looking at you, Infernape.
Purely based on statistics, I'm thoroughly unconvinced Zard X is broken or aggravates matchup because most types maintain a decent, mid-ranged w/l with Flying.
Zard has been firmly rooted in our metagame for over a year. People have found ways to deal with it. it's time for you to do that too. Zard X is a top-tier threat, and that's fine, and honestly if it was that broken I think it would have been our focus numerous times already, where instead we've opted to cover things such as Mega Medicham.

EDIT: TM sniping some of my arguments >.>

Um, there's a reason i calced things such as Cradily, Megasaur, Avalugg, etc. Its because those are the defensive pokemon for those types. Why would i calc something like Char x Flare Blitz vs whimsicott? Lets be real, Char X sweeps every other grass except Megasaur and cradily, which is why i calced them. Char X sweeps every other bug except Shuckle, which is why i calced him. Char X sweeps every other Elec except Lanturn, which is why i calced him. etc. So your argument for me calcing things only weak to fire is invalid.

Also, the statistics for flying vs elec, i wouldnt say they are too accurate, as there are bad flying users who dont use Dragonite, Lando, Thundy, etc.

And you can't say a flying team doesnt have Togekiss or Articuno with heal bell. Mostly every flying team i've seen has those. And you can ignore the statistics, because once u see an Articuno or Togekiss Heal Bell with Char X, its over. So stop.

And a +1 Zard X pretty much sweeps all those types i listed, doesnt need +2.
For fighting, the only real threat is Terrakion, but again, Flying has Skarm, Lando, and all that other good stuff to deal with terrakion. So again, stop.


You all fail to realize how broken Char X is because:
1. You either use Char X yourself
2. Your type isnt affected by Char X
3. You just want to ignore the facts about how it kills multiple types and argue for no reason at all

 

[Not Zer0]

Um, there's a reason i calced things such as Cradily, Megasaur, Avalugg, etc. Its because those are the defensive pokemon for those types. Why would i calc something like Char x Flare Blitz vs whimsicott? Lets be real, Char X sweeps every other grass except Megasaur and cradily, which is why i calced them. Char X sweeps every other bug except Shuckle, which is why i calced him. Char X sweeps every other Elec except Lanturn, which is why i calced him. etc. So your argument for me calcing things only weak to fire is invalid.

Shuckle has very low base HP, which offsets the defenses. Bug is very good at stacking rocks, and Flying just lost their best defogger whereas Fire's spinner is really vulnerable to chip damage due to low recovery.
Grass' best out to Zard isn't really Cradily. I would probably say Breloom/Sceptile on top of chip damage from Ferrothorn/Venu can get the job done, although if Zard is at +2, again, not much chance there, but I've iterated in my previous post that faulting a sweeper for setting up and sweeping isn't really a good argument.

Also, the statistics for flying vs elec, i wouldnt say they are too accurate, as there are bad flying users who dont use Dragonite, Lando, Thundy, etc.

So every Flying player who loses to Electric is bad then? Honestly, you're grasping at straws on this one. Since when did having Dragonite, Lando, and Thundy also become necessary Pokemon on Flying? Clearly based on your statement a lot of Flying players are bad and that's just simply not the case. Nor do I agree that without one of the 4 you've mentioned so far, Flying will always lose to Electric. Pokemon like Gliscor and Altaria are a thing too, and while they're not popular (mostly because people run your "instawin" mons in their place) they're still good vs Electric.

These are weighted stats, and while they're not perfectly accurate descriptions of the interactions between the types, they are a really good indicator of it, and Electric is 60/40 to Flying and you haven't presented something that legitimately debunks that.

And you can't say a flying team doesnt have Togekiss or Articuno with heal bell. Mostly every flying team i've seen has those. And you can ignore the statistics, because once u see an Articuno or Togekiss Heal Bell with Char X, its over. So stop.

Good thing your experience accounts for that of every electric player or every player in general, right? As I've previously stated, you may find all those elements on a team, but statistically speaking it's not every team (closer to a third, I believe?) like you want to make it out as. And it's not over, people have ways to kill Zard w/o status. Honestly, I think Electric is the only type that heavily relies on status to handle Zard (and maybe Poison too).

You all fail to realize how broken Char X is because:
1. You either use Char X yourself
2. Your type isnt affected by Char X
3. You just want to ignore the facts about how it kills multiple types and argue for no reason at all

I play Dragon, so your first 2 bullet points are invalidated. Your third point is just a dig on me and multiple users have argued your points and you've yet to deliver a convincing retort supported by evidence.

EDIT: Edited my last paragraph because it was real douchenozzley

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Ok are you guys lost? Why the hell isnt Charizard X banned on Flying, and MAYBE fire? Like seriously, this thing can sweep teams, such as Bug, Grass, Steel, Poison, Electric, ice, can damage fighting, and other types that i might not now get affected by Char X. You guys banned zapdos on flying, yet flying is still number 1. Isnt your job to balance the metagame? Why is flying still 1? Just ban Char x, dont even say u need it to counter ice because you will still have Charizard Y and Articuno. Heck, flying reks the crap out of electric. Isnt it supposed to be vice versa? They have Dragonite, gliscor, lando, Char x, Altaria, and thundy to rek electric. Remove the Char x and things will be a little better for electric, but still not a high chance of winning due to the rest of those flying pokemon. If electric cant beat flying, and sometimes struggles with certain water teams, then electric basically has no advantages in this metagame. All im asking to ban Char X so it wouldnt be guaranteed that flying beats electric 100% of the time.

Now, tell me what pokemon does bug have to counter Char x? Oh right, none. They may slow char x down, but they cant get rid of me completely and he will come back to destroy bug.

What does grass have for Char x? Ah right, nothing again.

What does steel have for Char x? Only thing i can think of is Heatran with balloon, assuming char x's only attacking moves are flare blitz/fire punch and EQ. If the heatran's balloon is gone, gg. Dont say scarf exca cuz ddance makes char x outspeed everything.

What does Electric have for char x? Stupidest response is usually "para it" HELLO THEY HAVE ARTICUNO/TOGEKISS HEAL BELL WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW

What does Ice do to Char x? Avalugg can "stall"(sike) it maybe but it doesnt stop char x completely. Same deal with bug.

What does fighting have for Char x? I personally dont know anything about fighting, but once char x has 2 dances up, its gg.

Same deal with all the other types that i dont know about. Why isnt he banned yet? You want to balance this metagame yet you don't even ban the broken pokemon, yeah ok that makes perfect sense.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 402-474 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cradily's are usually specially defensive, so im not gonna calc physical defensive. Yep, cradily can eat up a flare blitz real good.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 166-196 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming cradily is physical defensive which i doubt it is. Also, Charizard can just keep setting up Ddances and sweep, or just outright kill the shuckle.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow very bulky. Also, this assumes physical defensive mega saur, and only Char X at +1. Remember, Char X can just keep setting up on other pokemon or something.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 444-524 (132.9 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blah blah blah sturdy whirlwind, but like i said, that does nothing to Char X as he will come back with revenge and sweep. Also, dont forget flying has Skarm as well just in case excadrill shows up.


+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 360-426 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Nope, gg ice. Avalugg cant even do anything back to Char X anyway because Roost, Ddance, Flare Blitz, EQ is the usual set and it will just keep taking hits and roosting and killing just like how it sweeps every type i listed.

+1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 360-424 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Again, lanturn does nothing back to Char x. Dont give me that bs para arguement cuz like i said, heal bell exists and char x will come back with revenge and sweep.

Also, if you're wondering why i didnt calc rotom-w, its because he does nothing to char x even tho char x does nothing back. Char x is just gonna outstall Rotom's hydro pump PP's by keep roosting. 16 PP>8 PP. Therefore, rotom does nothing to Char X.

Again, there are many other types out there that get rekt by char x, but these are the only ones i know.

tl;dr Char x is too broken for this metagame and needs an instant ban

http://prntscr.com/76si95 Read the stats please before going around saying they're still #1. Flying lost usage after Zapdos ban. Also, it isn't your job to tell us how to run the forums either. Right now, we should be focusing on Ground right now and then worry about something as this later.

Avalugg has Sturdy, which allows it to take a Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard X and pretty much it'll be taking about 45% of damage from recoil, meaning Avalugg can retaliate with Earthquake and KO it. Fighting-types, Choice Scarf Terrakion is a thing which you forgot. Grass-types Mega Venusaur can put it to sleep with Sleep Powder and retaliate with Earthquake or Sludge Bomb, stall with Synthesis, so don't think it can't do anything. As far as I know Articuno is used little to none on Monotype Flying. Togekiss is used quite often. Having Mega Charizard X paralyzed would cause it to switch out into a cleric user. Playing against Mono Flying, I don't have much of an issue with Mega Charizard X with Electric but idk what type of Pokemon you run.

Steel-types have a way to destroy Mega Charizard X such as Choice Scarf Excadrill.

Mega Charizard X doesn't need banning from Fire either when Mega Charizard Y is better.

Situations like that someone must be really stupid to let Charizard X set up on them.

I advise doing more in depth look into other types because your explanation makes no sense. Also can you stop being an ass on the forums as well please? At least be more civilized on the forums.

Are you complaining because you're allowing Charizard Y to beat your Electric mono?

Because everything you said is one-sided.

 

[Sour Apples]

http://prntscr.com/76si95 Read the stats please before going around saying they're still #1. Flying lost usage after Zapdos ban. Also, it isn't your job to tell us how to run the forums either. Right now, we should be focusing on Ground right now and then worry about something as this later.

Avalugg has Sturdy, which allows it to take a Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard X and pretty much it'll be taking about 45% of damage from recoil, meaning Avalugg can retaliate with Earthquake and KO it. Fighting-types, Choice Scarf Terrakion is a thing which you forgot. Grass-types Mega Venusaur can put it to sleep with Sleep Powder and retaliate with Earthquake or Sludge Bomb, stall with Synthesis, so don't think it can't do anything. As far as I know Articuno is used little to none on Monotype Flying. Togekiss is used quite often. Having Mega Charizard X paralyzed would cause it to switch out into a cleric user. Playing against Mono Flying, I don't have much of an issue with Mega Charizard X with Electric but idk what type of Pokemon you run.

Steel-types have a way to destroy Mega Charizard X such as Choice Scarf Excadrill.

Mega Charizard X doesn't need banning from Fire either when Mega Charizard Y is better.

Situations like that someone must be really stupid to let Charizard X set up on them.

I advise doing more in depth look into other types because your explanation makes no sense. Also can you stop being an ass on the forums as well please? At least be more civilized on the forums.

Are you complaining because you're allowing Charizard Y to beat your Electric mono?

Because everything you said is one-sided.

Ok im sorry for being rude, but you are literally lost.

>avalugg has sturdy
Who tf uses flare blitz on a max hp avalugg? Use EQ/d-claw first, then flare blitz.

Only bad flying users dont run heal bell with Char X, and those are the users i can beat easily so idc about them. Thats the reason its 60/40 for w/l ratio against flying. Because most flying users are bad.

>steel has choice scarf exca
Are you lost? +1 Char X outspeeds Exca.

>someone must be stupid to let char x set up on them
Or its just impossible to not let it set up? Char X can set up on many pokemon that dont threaten Char X, so Char X will always be guaranteed at a +1. Thats the reason people bring in Char X, to get a free set up on a non-threatening pokemon

I think you mean Char x on that last part, and no, Char X + Heal Bell is nearly impossible to beat for every electric user.

Also i reached number 2 with Electric. So i think ik what im talking about

 

[Anttya]

Tbh, your points would be more valid if you didn't say that you want it banned because it beats your team about 10 times.

The calcs you listed are correct, however, Zard-X doesn't just come in at +1. It has to find places to set up, and it doesn't always do it unscathed. Rocks also take 25% off, and w/o Zapdos, Flying has a harder time defogging so there will be a good chance that Charizard will already be hurt when it comes in. All of the calcs you're listing are with Flare Blitz which has recoil, and if Zard's not running EQ it's going to have coverage issues namely Heatran. If it carries Eq, it's going to get worn down insanely fast, so chances are, it's running Fire Punch which is a lot weaker.

You also exaggerated some scenarios for type matchups.

Bug: A HO Type, so Charizard's going to take a hefty bit of damage a majority of time. Bug also carries Shuckle / Forretress, who generally run Red Card, and Armaldo can take a Fire Punch if it gets a safe switch in.

You can argue that it's not going to setup when its checks are still healthy, then when is it going to set up? I'm fairly positive that a high ladder Bug user wouldn't spam Ice Beam on Genesect unless if they're certain that they have an answer to Zard-X, and since Volcs carry HP Ground Zard can't set up on that either. Finally, if Zard takes enough damage, Pinsir can finish it off with a Quick Attack, or Return if it has no boosts. (Scolipede can also threaten it out and force it to take more SR damage)

Ofc Bug still struggles, but you cannot expect everything to go way you want it to go.

Grass: Harder than normal, but Venusaur is generally able to wear it down enough to the point where it's revenge killable. If it isn't enough, then bait a Flare Blitz and switch to Ferrothorn so it kills itself. It'll be hard to beat, but so is Pinsir, and Zard-Y so should we ban those too?

Steel: Like I said earlier, If Zard's running EQ, then it's going to get worn down fast. However, if it's running Roost then Heatran walls it. If it runs Flare Blitz, switch to Skarm and watch it kill itself. Also, now that Zapdos is gone, Steel has a much easier time setting rocks. It isn't much, but it's not that bad as you say it to be. (Steel struggles more vs Lando-I soo)

Poison: What is a Charizard-X to a Poison team when there's a Nidoking that's getting a kill every time it gets a safe switch in? Besides, Poison has Weezing who can Clear Smog it, or Venusaur who can Rock Slide it (Curse) or try to Poison it w/ Sludge Bomb.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

It's a lot, but that is assuming you switched it in when it Dragon Dance. Also, you can Pain Split the next turn, or just Toxic it.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Once again, that's a lot, but:

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 132-156 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

There's a nice chance that it's going to get poisoned as well, or it can just setup alongside with Curse if it has it, or just spam Leech Seed and Synthesis. Ofc this isn't the perfect plan, but what do you expect :x

Electric: Admittedly harder than the other types due to the lack of SR and moves that can hit it.

Ice: Piloswine <3

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

2HKO, but it's generally enough to threaten it out if it's still healthy enough (Which is what you want bec of rocks damage) If they try their luck and fail:

0 Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 198-234 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This puts them in Ice Shard range. Avalugg can also Toxic it (before dying rip) so Weavile's Fake Outs do more damage. Chances are, something's going to die but what do you expect, it's an S ranked mon for a reason. Wallrein can tank a +1 Dragon Claw as well.

Tl;dr Some of the scenarios were exaggerated, however, they do struggle vs Charizard. This isn't enough to warrant a ban tho, and you cannot always expect to have a positive matchup against everything. Also, you're one of the one complaining, I haven't seen CC complain about Charizard when using Ice, nor have I seen Chef complain about it when using Poison. You're going to have to adapt, and it may be harder than other types but you cannot expect people to ban something just so it benefits you.

(Might've missed some stuff but w/e)

 

[TM93]

Ok i doubt you even read my post.

>I would be open to some type of reasoning to CONSIDER banning Charizardite X on Flying
If you read my post, i already gave multiple reasonings.

Also, your point with avalugg is useless. Like i said, Charizard can just roost it away. Same to all ur other calcs that damage Charizard. Also, you seemed to ignore what Char X can do to electric, steel, bug, fighting, etc. So stop. You seem like a flying player to me that doesnt want ur broken uber Char X to go. Well too bad, i gave my reasonings for it to be banned and you know they are true. You know your Char X is broken. It has to be banned because it destroys many many many types. Go read my post again and then we will talk.

Also, @RZL, like i said, you cant para Char X because they have Articuno and Togekiss Heal Bell. Then Char X will come back and continue its sweep.

Did you miss the part where EQ is dealing more than 50% of Charizard's HP per hit? Roost Heals for 50%, EQ's minimal damage was 50.5% from a Specially Defensive Avalugg. Talking about reading posts... you are quick to dismiss me as not reading, while clearly not reading what I posted.

I said that I was focusing on those two points. As those were the two that I had counter-arguments for. I was not sure enough about the others to give an opinion, so I didn't go on about those.

You gave reasonings, I gave counter-arguments. That's sort of how debates work. If everyone is on the same side, there is no debate.

FYI I've only tried Flying once. I far prefer to run Fire despite it being an allegedly inferior type to Flying. Thanks for making that assumption btw.

For your latest post:

Avalugg also has Recover last I checked, it doesn't fear a 2HKO from a Neutral hit of even a +1 Dragon Claw.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Avalugg: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. If Charizard takes the time to set up, it's 2HKOed by EQ. If it goes for pure offensive, it's brought down to half HP and can get finished off by a high-speed, or priority-abusing teammate in conjunction with it's own recoil.

Also haven't we literally been talking Sand Rush Exca the entire time? Double Speed 252 Adamant Excadrill most certainly outspeeds a +1 Charizard.

 

[Balto]

Just going to drop my opinion

Char x does demolish types, no questions asked. There were similar talks in the previous mega though.

It's common knowledge some types will always just get the shit end of the stick. Ice & grass have been in that place since monotype began. Things like kyu and shaymin did assist, but I'll get to that later. Ever since we made the change to basing bans on individual performance rather than types as whole, more ideas on bans have begun. (sand rush, flying megas, etc)

In my personal opinion, charizard x performs far above the other top mons in the meta, similar to shaymin-sky's situation. Char X does break types as much as shaymin, and it's on a much less reliant type(flying has MANY other options to choose from.) With that being said, I don't believe it's fair to look at usage stats as flying being not being #1 considering ice & grass were always lower used types, and still received the ban for their overperforming mons. On a side note to flying, a core still remains for the type post dos ban which allows x to continue to be more effective than previously banned isolated mons.

 

[Kammi]

Hi, just reading through the posts here, and I'd like to bring back up a previous argument that was made about the Charizard-X ban.

People touched on the topic of this ban right after Greninja went RIP, and I read some good arguments that don't seem to be coming back up again. The main question for this argument was based around If Zard-X is banned, what takes its place?

The answer is pretty simple; flying either goes to Mega-Altaria or Mega-Gyarados, both of which are still boosting offensive d-dancers with the potential to run defensive sets. Honestly, banning one good mega on a type with access to a huge number of them is not going to help that much. Altaria and Gyarados may not wreck the same types that Charizard-X does, but they definitely put a huge dent in others (ex: see user: Laxuy for rants on Mega-Altaria vs. Dark). I'm not including calcs in this post as it was just a preliminary idea, but I'll go ahead and make a list (note that I'm not that up to date with the meta, so I may miss a few types):

Mega-Pokemon : Types it is detrimental to : Results
Charizard-X : Electric, Ghost, Bug, Grass, Ice, Poison (if EQ), Steel (if EQ, even then Excadrill can outspeed and kill) : 5 losing types, 2 iffy ones
Altaria : Electric, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Grass (can run Fire Blast for Ferrothorn, then pretty much cleans), Fire (adding because Zenith told me it's difficult) : 5 losing types, 2 iffy ones
Gyarados : Ground, Ghost, Psychic, Rock, Fire : 5 losing types

So, really, banning Zard-X isn't going to "balance the meta" - it's just going to make the types that are losing different. Also, the meta will probably become a LITTLE more diverse in the fact that people will use Gyarados or Altaria since one isn't really clearly better than the other, but that just means you have to prepare for both (you should be preparing for all 3 of these anyways). Sorry for the lack of detail in this post, just bringing back up this argument as another side to the story. The people who posted about it originally can repost theirs if they want...too lazy to find originals. (all falls down was that you? I don't remember.)

tl;dr Banning Zard-X won't really do much to change the fact that Flying has overpowered megas that wreck certain types.

Side Note:

You all fail to realize how broken Char X is because:
1. You either use Char X yourself
2. Your type isnt affected by Char X
3. You just want to ignore the facts about how it kills multiple types and argue for no reason at all

What a trashy thing to say lmao; anyways, quoted this to say that I use Ghost, and it also gets wrecked, arguably even more than Electric does, so. Stop crying about it.

EDIT: found the post after stalking AFD's profile :3 http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-72#post-6170424

 

[Acast]

I'd just like to mention that Landorus-I is a huge threat to Electric teams as well. If we were to ban Landorus-I, that would nerf both Ground and Flying, in a sense killing two birds with one stone. Admittedly, that doesn't change whether or not Charizard X is broken, but I am of the opinion that Char X isn't broken anyway, so take my suggestion with a grain of salt.

As before, I am not pro-ban on Landorus-I, but I'm not anti-ban either. I'm just very curious as to what others think about it, because it really is a huge threat. Probably not as much as it is in OU, but still a very potent pokemon.

 

[Balto]

Hi, just reading through the posts here, and I'd like to bring back up a previous argument that was made about the Charizard-X ban.

People touched on the topic of this ban right after Greninja went RIP, and I read some good arguments that don't seem to be coming back up again. The main question for this argument was based around If Zard-X is banned, what takes its place?

The answer is pretty simple; flying either goes to Mega-Altaria or Mega-Gyarados, both of which are still boosting offensive d-dancers with the potential to run defensive sets. Honestly, banning one good mega on a type with access to a huge number of them is not going to help that much. Altaria and Gyarados may not wreck the same types that Charizard-X does, but they definitely put a huge dent in others (ex: see user: Laxuy for rants on Mega-Altaria vs. Dark). I'm not including calcs in this post as it was just a preliminary idea, but I'll go ahead and make a list (note that I'm not that up to date with the meta, so I may miss a few types):

Mega-Pokemon : Types it is detrimental to : Results
Charizard-X : Electric, Ghost, Bug, Grass, Ice, Poison (if EQ), Steel (if EQ, even then Excadrill can outspeed and kill) : 5 losing types, 2 iffy ones
Altaria : Electric, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Grass (can run Fire Blast for Ferrothorn, then pretty much cleans) : 5 losing types, 1 iffy one
Gyarados : Ground, Ghost, Psychic, Rock, Fire : 5 losing types

So, really, banning Zard-X isn't going to "balance the meta" - it's just going to make the types that are losing different. Also, the meta will probably become a LITTLE more diverse in the fact that people will use Gyarados or Altaria since one isn't really clearly better than the other, but that just means you have to prepare for both (you should be preparing for all 3 of these anyways). Sorry for the lack of detail in this post, just bringing back up this argument as another side to the story. The people who posted about it originally can repost theirs if they want...too lazy to find originals. (all falls down was that you? I don't remember.)

tl;dr Banning Zard-X won't really do much to change the fact that Flying has overpowered megas that wreck certain types.

Side Note:

What a trashy thing to say lmao; anyways, quoted this to say that I use Ghost, and it also gets wrecked, arguably even more than Electric does, so. Stop crying about it.

EDIT: found the post after stalking AFD's profile :3 http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-72#post-6170424

Important to note dos and alt have an ice/electric weakness, whereas x isn't vulnerable to either.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Ok im sorry for being rude, but you are literally lost.

>avalugg has sturdy
Who tf uses flare blitz on a max hp avalugg? Use EQ/d-claw first, then flare blitz.

Only bad flying users dont run heal bell with Char X, and those are the users i can beat easily so idc about them. Thats the reason its 60/40 for w/l ratio against flying. Because most flying users are bad.

>steel has choice scarf exca
Are you lost? +1 Char X outspeeds Exca.

>someone must be stupid to let char x set up on them
Or its just impossible to not let it set up? Char X can set up on many pokemon that dont threaten Char X, so Char X will always be guaranteed at a +1. Thats the reason people bring in Char X, to get a free set up on a non-threatening pokemon

I think you mean Char x on that last part, and no, Char X + Heal Bell is nearly impossible to beat for every electric user.

Also i reached number 2 with Electric. So i think ik what im talking about

In my personal opinion, charizard x performs far above the other top mons in the meta, similar to shaymin-sky's situation. Char X does break types as much as shaymin, and it's on a much less reliant type(flying has MANY other options to choose from.) With that being said, I don't believe it's fair to look at usage stats as flying being not being #1 considering ice & grass were always lower used types, and still received the ban for their overperforming mons. On a side note to flying, a core still remains for the type post dos ban which allows x to continue to be more effective than previously banned isolated mons.

I know I never went against a +1 Speed Adamant Mega Charizard X with Excadrill because I have other Pokemon on the team to put in work in crippling it. But it is just being blown out of proportion with Steel-types having only "one Pokemon to deal with Mega Charizard X" considering I main/specialize in the type. "Are you lost?" lol. Heatran is certainly not Steel-types only hope against Mega Charizard X because we have Mega Aggron to T-Wave it as well. Mega Charizard X would have to be at +2 to OHKO Mega Aggron. This gives Mega Aggron a chance to T-Wave along with using Earthquake on it KOing after recoil damage from Flare Blitz. With the safer option Fire Punch, it would be a 2HKO but Mega Aggron would have crippled it with Thunder Wave and deal hefty damage on it and another Steel-type can go on and finish it off. Even my Magnezone gimmick puts a stop on Mega Charizard X, just like Mega Aggron but in a different way with having Sturdy as well, but I'm not going to reveal what I do lol.

Certainly there wouldn't be any excuse in using Heal Bell Togekiss or Articuno because I know for certain neither of them would want risk taking a Heavy Slam Mega Aggron because they're pretty much OHKOed with the exception of Togekiss being a 75% chance. Actually they don't want to get a smack in the face by any steel type that'll hit them hard.

I have more than the tools I need to deal with Mega Charizard X with Steel from exploring different movesets for my team. So you can't tell me that they can't do anything to it outside of Heatran.

I was saying that he said Flying is "still" #1 which it isn't as of right now. Balto~

 

[truedrew]

About altar a vs grass just a nitpick but mega venu is a roflcounter to ANY ALTRIA SET becuz that phat plant is 2 bulky

Now onto charizard X it is not broken just cumbersome to deal with sure it gives electric issues but so do many other things we cannot really make a metagame where because YOU WANT ELECTRIC TO HAVE 0 THREATS ban anything viable until we are playing ORAS fu monotype

If you really find charx annoying you can really just deal with it how tesla the greathing electric user does PARALYSIS
you say heal bell but only a slow person will give flying that opportunity as it is hard pressed to choose between sacking said heal beller whom might be pivotal to your strategy as electric can easily paralyze your zard X later with thunduris or xyz pokemon. Now I am no electric great but I do know that mega ampharos after the zapdos ban with agility can rofl vs flying as nothing can take hits off that massive 165 sp attack apart from say altaria whom can be dealt with via magnezone or other such staples. Thus before ranting how hypothetically a SWEEPER/WALL BREAKER CAN SET UP AND SWEEEP try and be constructive in this forum as after reading your previous posts about zekrom umbanning and more cancer I seriously doubt whether or not you know the current state of the meta

Your streak might leave me to believe that you will nominate eviolite for a ban as otherwise normal is unbeaten by electric :(

 

[SaNeski]

Smooth rock ban? Yeah, I use no-skill sand rush and i have to admit that 7-8 turns of that cocaine sand rush party is overwhelming. I wouldn't mind a ban on that.

Zard x ban? Zard x is kinda tough to go against without the right contingencies. That's actually sugarcoating it, Zard X is op.

People resulting to mega gyarados and mega altaria if zard-x gets banned? Yeah, that's exactly what's gonna happen... so fck it, ban em all. Give flying their zapdos back and ban all flying types that lose its flying typing after a mega evolution. (The tier is called monotype anyways)

 

[Acast]

People resulting to mega gyarados and mega altaria if zard-x gets banned? Yeah, that's exactly what's gonna happen... so fck it, ban em all. Give flying their zapdos back and ban all flying types that lose its flying typing after a mega evolution. (The tier is called monotype anyways)

By following your logic, we'd have to ban Mega Aggron from Rock teams as well just to stay consistent. If anyone here thinks Mega Aggron is worthy of a ban...

Or were you thinking we should just go ahead and ban any threatening setup sweeper? Ok, let's ban Mega Scizor, Mega Gallade, Mega Pinsir, Mega Latias, Bisharp, Hawlucha, Volcarona, and all the other good setup sweepers too while we're at it. If we're going to be doing mass-bans we should at least be consistent. That's what you want right?

All sarcasm aside, no. There's no way all 3 Flying megas are going to be banned. Flying doesn't need to be nerfed anymore. Zard X on its own is at least worth a discussion, and I don't see anything wrong with that, but suggesting we should change the way this entire metagame treats Mega Evolution? No.

 

[i'm sora]

yeah i'm a flying user and maybe a little biased about this but here we go.
charizard-x is a very strong pokemon. nobody disagrees on that, it can run multiple sets and has a pretty good move pool to support that.
i myself run bulky char-x, i've played around with offensive, set up (ddance, sd+tailwind, and bellycharge) and bulky is just the best for me.
with that in mind:

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 320-380 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

that's dragon claw, outrage is still pretty popular on kyu-b, and that's not even factoring in rock damage or previous damage.

148 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 271-319 (69.3 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah, it's alot of damage, people usually don't run max hp either, i also get recoiled. meaning char-x dies. plain and simple.
i can switch out, try to get momentum, but it can still revenge kill me, and threaten almost all of my team with it's move pool.
i'm only using one example here because i'm really tired and don't feel like calcing a million things, zard-x is a monster but it can be stopped. alot of things can kill it, and if not lower it enough for a scarf to come in and revenge.

as said before, with zapdos gone rocks are alot harder to get off the field. we're limited to skarmory, mandibuzz, togekiss, and articuno.
mega chomp threatens out 3 of the 4 named. skarmory doesn't want to defog on anything with special attack outside of diancie, gardevoir, to name a few and mandibuzz gets chunked if it wants to defog on anything that has coverage. the key to beating flying teams are to keep rocks on the field and pressure defoggers. genesect pressures hard because you don't know what it's going to throw at you. a boosted ice beam or thunderbolt is surely going to scare mandi away, and like skarmory is going to defog on that. meaning i have to switch, take another 25%+ depending on how much i have to switch to get a favorable matchup, and then switch again trying to defog the rocks off.
when you think about it, it's not really that hard to pressure flying's current defoggers.

i'll again, bring up a point that was said previously, banning char-x will only open us up to altaria and gyarados. the types hurt will just change, so if you're going to ban char-x you might as well just ban all of the flying > non flying mega's and give us zapdos back. because that's literally what's going to happen sooner or later.

 

[SaNeski]

By following your logic, we'd have to ban Mega Aggron from Rock teams as well just to stay consistent. If anyone here thinks Mega Aggron is worthy of a ban...

Or were you thinking we should just go ahead and ban any threatening setup sweeper? Ok, let's ban Mega Scizor, Mega Gallade, Mega Pinsir, Mega Latias, Bisharp, Hawlucha, Volcarona, and all the other good setup sweepers too while we're at it. If we're going to be doing mass-bans we should at least be consistent. That's what you want right?

All sarcasm aside, no. There's no way all 3 Flying megas are going to be banned. Flying doesn't need to be nerfed anymore. Zard X on its own is at least worth a discussion, and I don't see anything wrong with that, but suggesting we should change the way this entire metagame treats Mega Evolution? No.

Do u Just look for the obvious counter argument by mentioning Mega Aggron or did u think u were the first to look up the other pokes affected by my "logic"?

You feel flying was nerfed by the zapdos ban, I don't think it was. We differ in our point of view coming into the discussion nd my suggestion on the bans is tailored towards an actual nerf on flying. Bringing in a generalized counter argument of "consistency with other types" and "mega pinsirs, bisharps nd so on" is just lazy arguing ... and gratz for being the first one to jump on that train.

 

[DoW]

Do u Just look for the obvious counter argument by mentioning Mega Aggron or did u think u were the first to look up the other pokes affected by my "logic"?

You feel flying was nerfed by the zapdos ban, I don't think it was. We differ in our point of view coming into the discussion nd my suggestion on the bans is tailored towards an actual nerf on flying. Bringing in a generalized counter argument of "consistency with other types" and "mega pinsirs, bisharps nd so on" is just lazy arguing ... and gratz for being the first one to jump on that train.

Arguing the zapdos ban didn't nerf flying simply shows your ignorance. The fact that 61% of flying users used Zapdos before the ban, combined with the fact that flying's usage has fallen from #1 to #3 since, makes it obvious that this had a very large effect. Whereas beforehand many people argued that flying was broken, now almost nobody will due to the fact that it is far easier to beat. The zapdos/skarmory core seen on almost any flying team is now gone. We certainly don't need to ban zardite x to nerf flying.

Acast was perfectly correct in arguing the things he argued, please try to actually argue against his points rather than simply attacking him.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Do u Just look for the obvious counter argument by mentioning Mega Aggron or did u think u were the first to look up the other pokes affected by my "logic"?

You feel flying was nerfed by the zapdos ban, I don't think it was. We differ in our point of view coming into the discussion nd my suggestion on the bans is tailored towards an actual nerf on flying. Bringing in a generalized counter argument of "consistency with other types" and "mega pinsirs, bisharps nd so on" is just lazy arguing ... and gratz for being the first one to jump on that train.

Full support with Acast. I'll be happy to jump aboard the train with my reason. Zapdos was a valid ban, which makes it much harder for Flying-types to deal with getting rid of entry hazards with the common choices you have are Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Aricuno being the only main Defog users left. Zapdos was the most common switch in getting rid of Stealth Rocks. You're right, we differ in our point of views. You all complained that Flying needed a nerf, and there you have it. We got rid of Zapdos. I would just quit complaining about how much more we need to ban from Flying and adapt to the metagame.

If you don't see a large difference in how Flying has been since before, then I don't know what to tell you.