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Tbf you should provide replays for anything being nommed up, backed up by solid reasoning other than the obvious we know so instead of giving everyone the illusion it's good we can actually see it in a capable capacity and judge for ourselves. I'll leave the comments up here for now but bludz comment will be the last one for Mega Glalie that won't be deleted. Just go off of that.
Edit: And by replays I mean a couple showing its matchup against various styles.
I admitted that the comparison wasn't fair, it's obvious, I just wanted to point out that both of them attract dangerous mons and it doesn't matter because you have to prepare for them anyway. Yea the low bp thing got out of hand, shouldn't have said that lol. Why even mention tank chomp if it's 2HKOed by Close Combat? it's not as annoyed by it as say, Talonflame, which needs to hit it twice even with a SD under its belt.
When did I say Terrakion beats Mega Slowbro? With that I just wanted to mean that it is capable of not being deadweight even against this defensive monster, it's obviously not going to beat it, and if you get it to 40%, Terrakion his did job so something like Zard-X can come in and clean up the game. I already know Volcarona was good and probably better than Terrakion, but the fact that it needs these priority users gone and certain counters out the way, coupled with removing hazards, which isn't that easy as most defoggers are weak to SR and spinners like Starmie can get pursuit'd and the others don't have realible recovery...
Priority is a problem for a lot of mons, atleast Terrakion resists Sucker Punch and isn't weak to Brave Bird unlike most fighting types but w/e.
I could do this with Keldeo too. Loses to Altaria, boosted Zard-X, Clefable, Mega Metagross and a massive portion of the A ranks too. Does it make it bad? No because it can circunvent them in one way or another, like Terrakion. Taunt SR lead is kinda... bad don't use it really it just sets up rocks and dies and it's easy to predict from team preview :/
On the point of Keldeo, its typing is far better offensively and defensively, has access to Secret Sword, meaning it can hit on both the physical side and the special side, and has Scald, one of the best moves in the game and one that can scare many of its would-be counters into not switching into it. In addition to this Keldeo can use Icy Wind, which makes would be switch ins slower and more susceptible. Terrakion does not have the luxury of this, and thus is hardly comparable to Keldeo. This said Keldeo just fell in rank, seeing Terrakion a mere two sub ranks below this great Pokemon would be too drastic. Some serious meta shifts would be required to make Terrakion in the same way it would need for Garchomp to rise.
Any chance of Hawlucha to B+?
I'm currently using a sub bulk up set with limber as let's be honest, it doesn't really need to go faster than it is and it's much more consistent.
It can easily setup on common mons like Landorus-T, Excadrill locked into anything but iron head, Gliscor etc
Obviously you have to get rid of a few of it's threats such as Thundurus (Who often T Wave, so you get a free turn in case it's low on health) Clefable and so.
Like I said, I think Limber is more consistent and because it's not very common everyone expects it to have Unburden and won't bring in mons like Mega Lopunny until later, or they even forfeit once it's setup.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-244947898
Here's a somewhat high ranked game with me using Hawlucha against some really common threats. I like to pair it with Mega Manectric because the most common way to defeat it is a Scarf EQ and then I can go to Hawlucha and setup!
Hi! This is surely a well made and accurate topic, but I'd like to make you notice a few possible ranking swaps that could be done imo:
- First of all I'd drop Omastar, which is in B rank, because it is a rain sweeper inferior to many others, and I doubt it is the case to put it in the same rank as Scizor (not mega) and Chansey or even considering it superior to mons like Sylveon or Lucario.
- Furthermore, I think Scolipede deserves to go to A- since many bpass teams, for how dangerous they can be, depend exclusevely from the boosting success of Scolipede, which happens almost always without any problem since of its speed, trait and boosting moves that the bug has.
- Last thing I'm noticing is the presence of Kyurem in A-, who in my opinion deserves A because, by considering every kind of set that it can run, or access(which became very common) to hp fire that allows to severely damage/ohko so called safe switch ins like Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn, it doesn't have pokemon that could get in without taking little damage.
- First of all I'd drop Omastar, which is in B rank, because it is a rain sweeper inferior to many others, and I doubt it is the case to put it in the same rank as Scizor (not mega) and Chansey or even considering it superior to mons like Sylveon or Lucario.
I doubt we will see Omastar dropping just because of its jaw-dropping power during Rain.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^Only needs some small prior damage to 2HKO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are some of the biggest threats to Rain teams, and Omastar breaks through them with ease.
Sure, Omastar got some flaws like pityful speed and low HP and Sp.Def. But that's why he isn't together with his pals in B+. B suits Omastar well in my opinion.
Any chance of Hawlucha to B+?
I'm currently using a sub bulk up set with limber as let's be honest, it doesn't really need to go faster than it is and it's much more consistent.
It can easily setup on common mons like Landorus-T, Excadrill locked into anything but iron head, Gliscor etc
Obviously you have to get rid of a few of it's threats such as Thundurus (Who often T Wave, so you get a free turn in case it's low on health) Clefable and so.
Like I said, I think Limber is more consistent and because it's not very common everyone expects it to have Unburden and won't bring in mons like Mega Lopunny until later, or they even forfeit once it's setup.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-244947898
Here's a somewhat high ranked game with me using Hawlucha against some really common threats. I like to pair it with Mega Manectric because the most common way to defeat it is a Scarf EQ and then I can go to Hawlucha and setup!
I support Hawlucha for B+. It's a really underrated threat right now with great speed and good attack, although it usually needs a boost or two to be powerful enough. Unburden is very nice as when your berry is consumed, u become a speed demon and acrobatics is boosted to good levels of power. Hawlucha has some problems though, as it's frail and doesn't exactly like the Weavile infestation we seem to be having, and some of it's checks are common rn like mega altaria, although after the berry is consumed and hawlucha has a SD up, acrobatics can kill Altaria. But Hawlucha is still a pretty good and underrated threat, and deserves B+.
- Last thing I'm noticing is the presence of Kyurem in A-, who in my opinion deserves A because, by considering every kind of set that it can run, or access(which became very common) to hp fire that allows to severely damage/ohko so called safe switch ins like Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn, it doesn't have pokemon that could get in without taking little damage.
I for one absolutely agree with you on this one. his sheer power and versatility scream 'A' to me. 4 viable sets, powerful coverage moves, a good ability, and phenomenal stats! sure, he'd prefer entry hazards gone, and he can't switch in on some common threats, but I still think he's worthy of being moved up a rank.
I doubt we will see Omastar dropping just because of its jaw-dropping power during Rain.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^Only needs some small prior damage to 2HKO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are some of the biggest threats to Rain teams, and Omastar breaks through them with ease.
Sure, Omastar got some flaws like pityful speed and low HP and Sp.Def. But that's why he isn't together with his pals in B+. B suits Omastar well in my opinion.
Let's also remember that the calcs are with specs Omastar in the rain. Now let's factor in the prevelance of knock off. Well with no specs omastar isn't realistically going to be breaking any of those mons. Now let's also factor in that sand offense and Char Y are incredibly relevant to the meta and they completely stop any speed control rain teams have (temporarily albeit)
Omastar is a good mon, no one is denying its viability on rain teams, but let's be real. Its niche isn't prevelant enough for B rank (at least in my opinion)
Let's also notice that this is a plus special attack nature too, meaning 418 speed at most. That means many relevant scarfers still outspeed it.
Omastar v. Scarftar calc
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (63.9 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarftar hitting Oma
252 Atk Tyranitar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There are countless calcs both for and against Omastar, it's really how you play it. That being said are we really saying that Omastar is as relevant in viability as Scizor? Really?
And with all of that being said, we're banking off hitting Hydro Pump for 3 out of the 4 calcs your provided.
I think we should all take a moment and realize just how beastly Mamoswine is; not for its standard Stealth Rock set, but as an AV user. Now, I know what you're thinking; "why would I use this over great assault vest users in the tier such as Azumarill, Raikou, Tornadus-T, and Donphan?" For starters, Mamoswine actually KOs things with Ice Shard and has powerful moves such as Freeze Dry, Earthquake, and Knocking Off. Mamoswine has bigger tusks, meaning that Mamoswine is much stronger and more defensive than the previous Pokemon. As a matter of fact, it is so bulky that (with the ability Thick Fat) it can tank a Mega Charizard Y's Fire Blast, (Assuming your opponent isn't a haxing scrub) a Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, allowing win Mamoswine to win by its bulk and its bulk only, and finally, allows it to tank a Focus Blast from Gengar and KOing it with a Knock Off. Its moveset even allows it to take on Pokemon who would usually OHKO Mamoswine with super effective attacks, such as the legendary Gyarados, allowing Mamoswine to (as the cool kids say) rekt the OU metagame.
As you can see, people have vastly underutilized Mamoswine, and have been using it wrong this entire time. With common team members such as Garchomp and Magnezone, AV Mamoswine fits well into quite a lot of teams and is a major threat to the OU metagame. If this thing isn't A+ worthy, I don't know what is.
Here are some more replays demonstrating the monstrosity that is AV Mamoswine.
Let's also remember that the calcs are with specs Omastar in the rain. Now let's factor in the prevelance of knock off. Well with no specs omastar isn't realistically going to be breaking any of those mons. Now let's also factor in that sand offense and Char Y are incredibly relevant to the meta and they completely stop any speed control rain teams have (temporarily albeit)
Omastar is a good mon, no one is denying its viability on rain teams, but let's be real. Its niche isn't prevelant enough for B rank (at least in my opinion)
Let's also notice that this is a plus special attack nature too, meaning 418 speed at most. That means many relevant scarfers still outspeed it.
Omastar v. Scarftar calc
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (63.9 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarftar hitting Oma
252 Atk Tyranitar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There are countless calcs both for and against Omastar, it's really how you play it. That being said are we really saying that Omastar is as relevant in viability as Scizor? Really?
And with all of that being said, we're banking off hitting Hydro Pump for 3 out of the 4 calcs your provided.
Let's remember that Specs is THE item that Omastar. Any other item is bad for it. And Modest is the nature you want to run. Otherwise Omastar wouldn't be count as a wallbreaker.
And Sand hurts the whole Rain style, not only Omastar. And besides, Rain also hurts Sand in return. I'm not saying Rain is better than Sand, but Sand doesn't destroy Rain.
And Omastar sure got low speed, that's why it ain't higher. He outspeeds any relevant thing that is trouble for Rain teams (except Mega Alakazam).
I wouldn't say that Scizor belongs in the same rank as Omastar and support the rise of zor.
When you're facing an Omastar, do you really want to switch in your Charizard-Y because there's a 1/4 of missing? Really?
this is going to get a lot of flak from people, I'm sure, but I would like to nominate Eelektross to D rank.
I came across this mon while thinking about what threats give me the most trouble checking in team builder. Electrics are very difficult to cover right now, with Mega Manectric, Raikou, and Thundurus being monsters capable of dismantling balance teams. Tornadus-T is also a difficult mon to check, as are Manaphy, Talon, and Ground mons. With an Assault Vest, Eelektross is a check to all of these at once, though mainly just electrics and Torn-T. It does provide a lot of team support though through Knock Off and momentum with Volt Switch. Common switch-ins to Electric types are Hippowdon, AV Tangrowth, Latis, Heatran, Dragalge, Jirachi, Celebi, etc. None of these want to switch in on a Knock Off. It is either super effective on these, or removes an item they are utterly dependent on (except Hippo, but it can't do much back to Eel). Heatran and Dragalge need their items for any form of recovery, and are quickly worn down without them, Lati takes over half from Knock Off and loses a ton of power from the lack of LO, Tangrwoth becomes laughably frail on the special side without AV, Rachi and Celebi take close to half and are forced to recover (Jirachi also eats a Flamethrower, which does some decent damage). But more importantly is the things Eel checks, not the things people expect to check it.
Eelektross takes negligible damage from Torn-T outside of Knock Off, Easily switching into Hurricane and grabbing momentum with Volt Switch or Knocking Off the opponent's switch-in's item. Manectric can't do anything to Eel, and is 3HKOed at minimum by Flamethrower (47% chance to 2HKO after rocks). Thundy is 2HKOed by HP Ice and has only a possible 3HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks. Raikou can't touch Eel, and gets its precious Leftovers/AV Knocked Off. Excadrill takes upwards of 75% from Flamethrower, and can only 3HKO with adamant Rock Slide.
The main concern with Eel is that it seems outclassed by Raikou as an AV user. But Eel has three main things that it has over Raikou. The first is Knock Off, which cripples many of the common switch-ins to Electric types as I mentioned above. The second is Flamethrower, which means Ferrothorn is not a check to it (and some rely on Ferro to check stuff like Raikou), the third and most important is an immunity to Ground, meaning Hippo may not be a smart switch-in, and it doesn't become a liability against sand teams like Mane and Raikou can be.
With all this in mind, Eelektross is actually pretty cool if your team needs a pivot that can switch into Torn, Electrics, etc, while also being immune to Ground.
here is a replay against Subject 18 for those of you who demand high level replays. Before you say anything, yes I know I don't have SR on my team, I just challenged Sub for fun before realizing that Eel was actually effective and I changed the team around afterwards.
Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Giga Drain (for Hippo, though it can still be a threat if it has Toxic)
- Flamethrower
There may be a better spread but this is the one I have been using.
EDIT: also why has there been 0 discussion about my Torn-T for S nom a few pages back? I would like to see what people think about that. It's definitely one of the best mons in the tier atm
Was just reading some posts and realized something. Scizor is B Rank... Wait what? CB Scizor is one of the most prominent revenge killers in the tier and its power is nothing to be scoffed at. Alongside the ability to use U-Turn to gain momentum, Scizor has access to one of the best Choice Band sets in the tier and its priority BP is almost unrivaled in power bar Talonflame. On top of this, Scizor can always run SD Iron Plate as a Mega/Band Bluff and if you run two mega-able (is that a word?) pokemon, Scizor can be used to bluff as M-Scizor considering M-Scizor is a prominent threat. Running it beside M-Latias, M-Gyarados or M-Alakazam can allow the other player to fear a win-con and keep them guessing in terms of sets. That said, I am nomming Scizor for B+
In response to some other posts, Omastar should stay where it is at, because frankly it is probably the best Rain Wallbreaker around with its main counter being Toxicroak (who even runs this thing). It definitely has flaws so B rank seems to be appropriate. I am also supporting Kyurem-B to A rank as its wallbreaking power is unparalleled in the OU tier as almost no pokemon realistically wants to switch into it. Supporting Scolipede to A-, because on top of the boosting set, it also has a very reliable time getting Spikes and Toxic Spikes up for hazard stacking teams. Gonna abstain on both Torn-T and Hawlucha not having much recent experience with either (Last time I used Torn-T was at the beginning of XY when everybody thought it was garbage).
Hi! This is surely a well made and accurate topic, but I'd like to make you notice a few possible ranking swaps that could be done imo:
- First of all I'd drop Omastar, which is in B rank, because it is a rain sweeper inferior to many others, and I doubt it is the case to put it in the same rank as Scizor (not mega) and Chansey or even considering it superior to mons like Sylveon or Lucario.
- Furthermore, I think Scolipede deserves to go to A- since many bpass teams, for how dangerous they can be, depend exclusevely from the boosting success of Scolipede, which happens almost always without any problem since of its speed, trait and boosting moves that the bug has.
- Last thing I'm noticing is the presence of Kyurem in A-, who in my opinion deserves A because, by considering every kind of set that it can run, or access(which became very common) to hp fire that allows to severely damage/ohko so called safe switch ins like Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn, it doesn't have pokemon that could get in without taking little damage.
Hope you agree :]
Omastar is not meant to be a rain sweeper; but a rain wallbreaker, which it does very effectively due to the raw power it possesses. I actually think Omastar is better than Chansey, which is a sitting duck for anything to set up on it and only fits on playstyles that are declining in usage.
I do not only see why you think you want to raise Mamoswine, but because of a set that is not even viable? Mamo still fails to switch in against many special attackers because of its bad typing, leaving it with only 2 resistances (1 resistance / 1 immune) but with 5 weaknesses. The only pokemon AV can switch in against are some electric types and that's about it. There are so many pokemon that can 2hko Mamoswine due to the lack of resistances even with an AV. It is a bad user of AV because it fails to stay healthy throughout the match and the many resistances doesn't help him with walling many pokemon. It is not viable, let alone A+ rank worthy
Now, I know what you're thinking; "why would I use this over great assault vest users in the tier such as Azumarill, Raikou, Tornadus-T,?
I already stopped taking this post seriously after mentioning AV Mamoswine, but this makes it even worse. No offense but AV Donphan is like really bad in OU
?" For starters, Mamoswine actually KOs things with Ice Shard and has powerful moves such as Freeze Dry, Earthquake, and Knocking Off. Mamoswine has bigger tusks, meaning that Mamoswine is much stronger and more defensive than the previous Pokemon.
That is correct but why not just put a Life Orb on it so you can actually 2hko pokemon like PDef Hippowdon and Manaphy. Yes, you hit harder than other Assault Vest users but you also are a lot less bulky and it is pointless to invest in something with bad bulk + bad defensive typing when you can invest in more power + good offensive typing
But that is just not Mamoswine's job. There is no point in taking a Fire Blast from Charizard Y when you fail to even OHKO it. You don't even guaranteed live it
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Mamoswine in Sun: 320-378 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
If you run HP investment it means you either hit even less hard or you are slow af which is pretty annoying for a pokemon with a bad defensive typing (looking at you Abomasnow)
. It's moveset even allows it to take on Pokemon who would usually OHKO Mamoswine with super effective attacks, such as the legendary Gyarados, allowing Mamoswine to (as the cool kids say) rekt the OU metagame.
All Mamoswine sets can do this, not only AV. Fine if you use this argument to make Mamoswine A- (it's a good niche Weavile doesn't have) but even for A- it has a lot of flaws.
If this thing isn't A+ worthy, I don't know what is.
In the first replay LO Mamoswine would have been better actually because it would be able to kill Sableye with the first EQ so you didn't need to catch the burn. Both Psyshock and Draco could KO Mamoswine from that point so why he went for HP Fire idk
What did Mamoswine even do in the second replay? If it was LO it could actually KO Scizor but now you immediately died. This doesn't show how you use AV Mamoswine.
In the third replay Mamoswine could have KO'd Ampharos with LO EQ, so that would actually be better than AV if your opponent didn't go for the random Cotton Guard. What did Mamoswine do other than that? Nothing.
Your three replays didn't even show AV Mamoswine, let alone it showed how it was A+ rank worthy. I encourage you to post replays but at least show replays that shows how Mamoswne is not used 'wrong this entire time'
Mamoswine is good where it is, maybe can go A- if the metagame becomes nice to it (which is actually becomes with walls like TWave CM Clefable and Garchomp rising in usage) but if you wanna raise it, A- is the max. As an AV user, Mamoswine is not even a bit viable and both LO and Sash are just 100x better.
Actually Life Orb is standard and that is the set why it is ranked so high but okay.
I do not only see why you think you want to raise Mamoswine, but because of a set that is not even viable? Mamo still fails to switch in against many special attackers because of its bad typing, leaving it with only 2 resistances (1 resistance / 1 immune) but with 5 weaknesses. The only pokemon AV can switch in against are some electric types and that's about it. There are so many pokemon that can 2hko Mamoswine due to the lack of resistances even with an AV. It is a bad user of AV because it fails to stay healthy throughout the match and the many resistances doesn't help him with walling many pokemon. It is not viable, let alone A+ rank worthy
That is indeed what I am thinking
I already stopped taking this post seriously after mentioning AV Mamoswine, but this makes it even worse. No offense but AV Donphan is like really bad in OU
That is correct but why not just put a Life Orb on it so you can actually 2hko pokemon like PDef Hippowdon and Manaphy. Yes, you hit harder than other Assault Vest users but you also are a lot less bulky and it is pointless to invest in something with bad bulk + bad defensive typing when you can invest in more power + good offensive typing
But that is just not Mamoswine's job. There is no point in taking a Fire Blast from Charizard Y when you fail to even OHKO it. You don't even guaranteed live it
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Mamoswine in Sun: 320-378 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
If you run HP investment it means you either hit even less hard or you are slow af which is pretty annoying for a pokemon with a bad defensive typing (looking at you Abomasnow)
All Mamoswine sets can do this, not only AV. Fine if you use this argument to make Mamoswine A- (it's a good niche Weavile doesn't have) but even for A- it has a lot of flaws.
lol
In the first replay LO Mamoswine would have been better actually because it would be able to kill Sableye with the first EQ so you didn't need to catch the burn. Both Psyshock and Draco could KO Mamoswine from that point so why he went for HP Fire idk
What did Mamoswine even do in the second replay? If it was LO it could actually KO Scizor but now you immediately died. This doesn't show how you use AV Mamoswine.
In the third replay Mamoswine could have KO'd Ampharos with LO EQ, so that would actually be better than AV if your opponent didn't go for the random Cotton Guard. What did Mamoswine do other than that? Nothing.
Your three replays didn't even show AV Mamoswine, let alone it showed how it was A+ rank worthy. I encourage you to post replays but at least show replays that shows how Mamoswne is not used 'wrong this entire time'
Mamoswine is good where it is, maybe can go A- if the metagame becomes nice to it (which is actually becomes with walls like TWave CM Clefable and Garchomp rising in usage) but if you wanna raise it, A- is the max. As an AV user, Mamoswine is not even a bit viable and both LO and Sash are just 100x better.
Im gonna nom Mega Sceptile to go down to B- rank. The meta is not kind to it. Weavile is everywhere, and Sceptile hates Ice Shard. LighningRod is a cool ability, but Mega Sceptile usually wont be able to abuse it before being killed due to its frailty and plethora of weaknesses. While it can be a neat pokemon under the right circumstances, the meta is simply too unkind to it to hold up B rank, so Mega Sceptile for B- .
Let's also remember that the calcs are with specs Omastar in the rain. Now let's factor in the prevelance of knock off. Well with no specs omastar isn't realistically going to be breaking any of those mons. Now let's also factor in that sand offense and Char Y are incredibly relevant to the meta and they completely stop any speed control rain teams have (temporarily albeit)
Omastar is a good mon, no one is denying its viability on rain teams, but let's be real. Its niche isn't prevelant enough for B rank (at least in my opinion)
Let's also notice that this is a plus special attack nature too, meaning 418 speed at most. That means many relevant scarfers still outspeed it.
Omastar v. Scarftar calc
252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (63.9 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarftar hitting Oma
252 Atk Tyranitar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There are countless calcs both for and against Omastar, it's really how you play it. That being said are we really saying that Omastar is as relevant in viability as Scizor? Really?
And with all of that being said, we're banking off hitting Hydro Pump for 3 out of the 4 calcs your provided.
-Don't get hit by Knock Off??
-All rain teams naturally have Y-zard check in Politoed. All good rain teams have t-tar check (Toed can kind of sort of check it anyway)
-418 speed is still fucking fast. You NEED scarf, Swift Swim or over 135 base speed fully invested to match Omastar.
-T-tar gets in... how? Scarftar only hits 364 speed, only base 78 scarfers can outspeed. You outspeed in sand, sure, but you're either getting chunked hard by Hydro Pump switching in (and you don't even OHKO Oma back) or you're getting in on a sac.
Anyways, Omastar is the best partner for Kingdra. Their checks overlap very well and they all get hit very hard by Omastar's ridiculous power (and Knock Off screws over certain checks). This makes Omastar a very good choice on rain teams, seeing as Kingdra is wholly excellent. Oma's raw damage output makes it the best wallbreaker available to rain teams, and unlike most wallbreakers it has bulk and 418 speed. Oh and it checks Talonflame, so I don't need a slot for that. B is fine.
-Don't get hit by Knock Off??
-All rain teams naturally have Y-zard check in Politoed. All good rain teams have t-tar check (Toed can kind of sort of check it anyway)
-418 speed is still fucking fast. You NEED scarf, Swift Swim or over 135 base speed fully invested to match Omastar.
-T-tar gets in... how? Scarftar only hits 364 speed, only base 78 scarfers can outspeed. You outspeed in sand, sure, but you're either getting chunked hard by Hydro Pump switching in (and you don't even OHKO Oma back) or you're getting in on a sac.
Anyways, Omastar is the best partner for Kingdra. Their checks overlap very well and they all get hit very hard by Omastar's ridiculous power (and Knock Off screws over certain checks). This makes Omastar a very good choice on rain teams, seeing as Kingdra is wholly excellent. Oma's raw damage output makes it the best wallbreaker available to rain teams, and unlike most wallbreakers it has bulk and 418 speed. Oh and it checks Talonflame, so I don't need a slot for that. B is fine.
Fair point, I see what you're saying. I never thought about it also being a Talonflame check. I guess I still have quite a bit to learn about rain teams. I've only used it one once wit M-Swamp when ORAS first came out.
Im gonna nom Mega Sceptile to go down to B- rank. The meta is not kind to it. Weavile is everywhere, and Sceptile hates Ice Shard. LighningRod is a cool ability, but Mega Sceptile usually wont be able to abuse it before being killed due to its frailty and plethora of weaknesses. While it can be a neat pokemon under the right circumstances, the meta is simply too unkind to it to hold up B rank, so Mega Sceptile for B- .
These criticisms don't really apply to how M-Sceptile is played. Weavile can force M-Sceptile out, but that's a moot point when Sceptile's role is as a revenge killer or late cleaner. Weavile can't switch into Sceptile, and is boned anyway if Sceptile has a Sub up. And if predicted properly, Sceptile can switch into the majority of Electric types in the tier and come out on top. +1 Sceptile easily eliminates M-Manectric, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and non AV Raikou (who is still taken care of with some prior damage). Sceptile's main downfalls are bulky walls like M-Altaria or Mew, and scarf pokemon in general that get the surprise kill. Otherwise, nothing mentioned is really different with how M-Sceptile operates. If anything, as the meta becomes more offensively oriented, M-Sceptile's viability increases because of its great 145 speed stat and just how bad news it is for offensive teams, especially those with Volt Change usage or rely on Prankster Thunder Wave as a defense.
M-Sceptile is fine in B. You can't tell me it's on the same levels as Chesnaught, Amoongus and Lucario.
These criticisms don't really apply to how M-Sceptile is played. Weavile can force M-Sceptile out, but that's a moot point when Sceptile's role is as a revenge killer or late cleaner. Weavile can't switch into Sceptile, and is boned anyway if Sceptile has a Sub up. And if predicted properly, Sceptile can switch into the majority of Electric types in the tier and come out on top. +1 Sceptile easily eliminates M-Manectric, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and non AV Raikou (who is still taken care of with some prior damage). Sceptile's main downfalls are bulky walls like M-Altaria or Mew, and scarf pokemon in general that get the surprise kill. Otherwise, nothing mentioned is really different with how M-Sceptile operates. If anything, as the meta becomes more offensively oriented, M-Sceptile's viability increases because of its great 145 speed stat and just how bad news it is for offensive teams, especially those with Volt Change usage or rely on Prankster Thunder Wave as a defense.
M-Sceptile is fine in B. You can't tell me it's on the same levels as Chesnaught, Amoongus and Lucario.
Not saying that M-Sceptile should move down, but using a ''If predicted properly'' argument is not fair when we all know it goes both ways, M-Sceptile is not really a problem in some offensive teams,by nature MChars,M-Altaria,Weavile,AV Raikou,Talonflame,Megagross,Clefable,etc. pose a problem to him, and those are just the ones on the top of my head.
Tough M-Sceptile still can put a lot of work if you don't carry an appropiate check(tough it still requires a decent amount of support.) and makes your opponent not being able to volt switch constantly and is immune to thunder waves,etc, B is good for him imo.
Not saying that M-Sceptile should move down, but using a ''If predicted properly'' argument is not fair when we all know it goes both ways, M-Sceptile is not really a problem in some offensive teams,by nature MChars,M-Altaria,Weavile,AV Raikou,Talonflame,Megagross,Clefable,etc. pose a problem to him, and those are just the ones on the top of my head.
Tough M-Sceptile still can put a lot of work if you don't carry an appropiate check(tough it still requires a decent amount of support.) and makes your opponent not being able to volt switch constantly and is immune to thunder waves,etc, B is good for him imo.
Last I checked if Char X is already mega'd, it doesn't stomach Dragon Pulse lol what. If it's not mega, it can't switch in with rocks and probably gets a chunk from Dragon Pulse anyway. Altaria has to be mega to switch in as well, but that's not as pressuring I suppose, since Altaria doesn't have as big of a weakness to rocks and alla that. counter if mega, check if not mega'd in the match yet. Earthquake can chunk Raikou as well, and with prior damage Scep can win. Clefable on an offense team? ?_? Sounds decent but meh, it's more balance or stall... Megagross, yeah, that's fine, probably can take HP Fire and Earthquake so... good check I suppose. Weavile is only a revenge killer, which by nature, happens a lot with offensive teams when facing MSceppy. Talonflame, again, revenges, but it can switch in to some of its moves, so that's a good hard check as well, especially if SpDef. Char Y doesn't appreciate rocks up either but it a good switch in for Mega Sceptile, counter there, especially if SpDef Char Y.
Mega Sceptile has a problem with bulky walls, it's paired with things like Keldeo w/ Specs or Manaphy for that reason. It's in B, too, so it would require more support than our S/A mons, that's simply obvious. Mega Scep's best matchup is against offense, we should look upon its matchups against other styles but saying a bunch of stuff that checks Sceptile, most of them revenge killers and stuff, but seriously, Clef in offense? Were you saying as a check in general? Because your sentence structure made it look a little iffy... Yeah uh, if you weren't, then Clef is a good counter I suppose.
People spit out "good against offense" way too much given that balance absolutely dominates. Sceptile is pretty weak, and it is limited to late game to do anything notable. No, late game sweeper does not give it a notable niche, because lots and lots of mons can run through a team after it is super weakened and all of the bulky mons are dead lol
People spit out "good against offense" way too much given that balance absolutely dominates. Sceptile is pretty weak, and it is limited to late game to do anything notable. No, late game sweeper does not give it a notable niche, because lots and lots of mons can run through a team after it is super weakened and all of the bulky mons are dead lol
I don't think anyone is arguing for it to move up. I do agree that M-Sceptile shouldn't even be considered for moving up unless there is a seriously positive metagame shift for it (because it does struggle a lot v.s. a huge number of teams), but the reason people are arguing for it is to prevent it going down: not to get it to move up.
So that this isn't a shitpost, M-Sceptile is one of those Pokémon that really excells v.s. a playstyle (offense) once its on the field, but falls flat on its face v.s. most others due to its insane frailty, exploitable weaknesses to common offensive priorities in ice and flying and lacking ability to break through bulky Pokémon.
When it comes to its power (not role), I compare it to Conkeldurr. If it is AV, it is about as powerful as M-Sceptile when it comes to raw stats (except on the physical side instead of the special side - 140 v.s. 145 base), and it is reliant on weak STAB in order to not compromise its ability to function. However, if it goes offensive with LO, it either has to settle with the aforementioned weak STAB (Drain Punch) or suffer from constant weakening of important stats (Superpower). M-Sceptile is in the same boat with Giga Drain v.s. Leaf Storm, and it severely affects its ability to function effectively. This is were the similarities stop, which is why I am not comparing their roles. Now, people are debating about whether it should go down to Conkeldurr's current level (which is why I made the power comparison), and I honestly think that, when it comes to raw roles and the effect it has on the playstyles it excels against, M-Sceptile is a step above stuff like Conkeldurr and Bronzong in their respective roles. Hell - I'd put it above Chansey (which I think should move down - and have talked about a little while ago in a post which managed to slip under the radar). I don't think that it should move up, and I think that it is on the bottom end of its current rank. However, I feel that moving it down would not be appropriate given how it functions in the current metagame. It isn't great at all, but it is above the level of Conkeldurr and the other B- Pokémon.
Seeing how I said I'd put it above Chansey, here is the post I made a while ago concerning it. Please note that my post about it had a little too much contextual drivel than I had planned on when I started typing it. This makes it a bit of a drag to read, so please take certain sections of it with a pinch of salt and try and filter out the important sections where necessary.
Chansey --> B-
Ok. I know what you're thinking. "But its so balky". I know it is - its argubly the bulkiest non-mega 'mon in the game with Eviolite. Great. But this draw is also its biggest flaw. Sure its super f*cking bulky, but that's literally it. It comes in and just sits there. It is a big part of why I nommed Blissey up to B- and Chansey down to the same rank early in this version of thread. While the Chansey nom was sidelined by the discussion surrounding Blissey, there is still a lot that I feel about how Chansey simply isn't that effective anymore.
Firstly, it can't touch Mega Sableye for sh*t - giving it a free switch-in - as well as being complete taunt bait both for said 'mon and for anything else which carries the move. Secondly it is argubly the least splashable 'mon that is OU by usage - only really being effective on stall (because there are better options for literally any other archetype). This is in contrast to its effectiveness in early/mid XY, when HO+Chansey was an effective playstyle due to Chansey covering a lot of HO's weaknesses at the time while also supporting it with Healing Wish. However, in the meta as it is now, Chansey HO simply doesn't work anymore due to the increasing pressure for offensive teams to stay on the offense in order to retain momentum, and a Pokemon which can only viably attack using Seismic Toss completely kills momentum for its team, and it means that hyper offense shifted more to subbing LO Latios out for Healing Wish Latias and giving the teamslot that used to belong to Chansey to another pokemon so that it didn't completely kill all momentum. The other option that Chansey HO teams started to do was to sub Chansey out for Blissey due to the latter being capable of luring the team's weaknesses with a variety of offensive options ranging from Flamethrower to Ice Beam to Shadow Ball and even to Focus Blast on a small number of variants. It just meant that it didn't kill momentum anywhere near as much as Chansey did. Before I continue, let me just say that this isn't a Blissey nom; it is just me giving examples. Anyway, the metagame shift in itself was a sign that Chansey was decreasing in effectiveness, and it was implied when it moved down from B+.
However, in the mid/late Lando era, stall also began to decline, giving it even less of a chance to shine, and tbh, even though stall is recovering a little now, Chansey is still feeling ineffective most of the time. I am finding myself using other B+-or-lower options like Blissey, Slowking, Porygon2 and Bronzong more frequently than ever as a replacement for Chansey on a lot of my teams for a number of reasons which (when compared to the four 'mons I mentioned) range from me feeling like the coverage is more valuable than the bulk (compared to Blissey) to me wanting more offensive presence with my special wall (compared to Slowking and Porygon2) to me simply feeling like the role it is playing is less valuable than it was in the past (compared to Bronzong). These are all things regarding Chansey that just trouble me based around the current state of the metagame. I think the final nails in its coffin came with the banning the two broken things it checked in a way that not many other Pokémon could lay claim to: Greninja and Landorus. Chansey isn't as effective as it was in the past anymore, and IMO it just feels more on the level of stuff like Sylveon, Mandibuzz and Conkeldurr in their respective roles than it does for anything in B tbh.
