Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Halcyon.]

Quite frankly I don't see Tornadus-T doing anything that sets it a tier above its A+ peers. I think that when used to its full potential, it is an incredible and malleable Pokémon that can do a lot for its team. However, in response to Halcyon. 's assertion of it being as good as Clefable, I just don't see it. There's just no using Clefable poorly: she can play multiple roles with just one set, has movepool out the ass, utilizes both viable abilities beautifully with no downsides/ways to combat them outside of Skill Swap, as well as sports great typing.

Tornadus-T is shoehorned into specific roles/tasks on a team with a variety of limiting factors, be it inaccurate moves, inability to run every coverage move, SR weakness, typing that leaves a bit to be desired both offensively and defensively, susceptibility to status (a paralyzed Torn-T is especially often dead weight), lack of physical bulk, susceptibility to priority, the rise of Weavile and spookiness of Pursuit in general, or lack of recovery without being forced out. When you specialize Torn-T to get around checks and counters or target specific threats, you tend to lose out on more than when Clefable does the same. When checks and counters try to cripple or remove Torn-T, they are generally much more successful than when they attempt to do the same to Clefable.

Torn-T really does shine in terms of splashability, and it's there to do it's job very effectively in much the same way that other A+ ranked mons do. Yes there are multiple sets to run that catch different mons, but generally Clefable is the kind of glue that Torn-T, strong as it is, cannot hope to match.

This post comes across as very biased in favor of Clefable, ignoring all of Tornadus-T's amazing qualities while highlighting all of Clefables and ignoring its own flaws. Clefable is certainly an amazing Pokemon, but I could just as easily say the rise in offensive Mega Scizor, Jirachi, SDef Taunt Skarm, and other Steels inhibits Clefable's ability to do its job just as easily as you can say Weavile's rise hurts Torn. Tornadus easily outlasts Weavile, with Rocks and LO wearing it down, its inability to switch into Torn, and U-Turn + Regen existing. The only fear it has is Pursuit, which can't even OHKO Torn after rocks anyway (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 198-234 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Susceptibility to status is not a good enough reason to keep something in S. Altaria is also susceptible to status unless running Heal Bell, but that takes a moveslot and an extra turn. Metagross is also useless if burned or paralyzed, bt it's still S rank. In fact, Clefable is the only S rank mon to ever not care about status moves, so I don't quite understand why that makes Torn-T not S material.

You say Flying is not an ideal typing offensively or defensively, but I disagree. Flying is notoriously difficult to switch into offensively, and LO Tornadus shows that. Defensively, Tornadus is a great defensive answer to Keldeo, Gengar, and Serperior while still maintaining offensive pressure, which cannot be said about other checks to these Pokemon (Mega Venu, for example, doesn't have as much offensive presence as Torn-T does, and also loses M=momentum when it is sent out, unlike Torn-T). Common flying resists are usually handled by Superpower or simply U-turned out of, with the added benefit of gaining back 33% health for doing so. You say Clefable doesn't lose out when trying to get around its checks, but when Clef doesn't run Flamethrower, it loses to Scizor and Ferro and other Steels. When it doesn't run Thunder Wave it becomes setup fodder/a free switch in for certain Pokemon. You say Pokemon can easily remove Tornadus-T, but Clefable can also be lured. SD garchomp only needs a LO to beat MG Clef. Thundurus only needs Nasty Plot or Taunt. Kyurem-B only needs Iron Head. Conkeldurr only needs Poison Jab. Manaphy only needs Rain Dance. Etc., etc..

Of course, everything I just said can be picked apart. You can tell me that these Pokemon's moves can be scouted for or that they're uncommon, or whatever. Bt the exact same thing can be said about Torn-T. Sure, Serperior can have Glare, but it needs to know when to use it, and even when it does, it still loses to AV Torn outside of extreme hax. And Clefable can still lose to a Latias if it turns out to be Mega Stored Power. You can say Keldeo can Scald Burn Torn (even though it still checks Keldeo when Burnt), but the same could be said for Altaria.

So taking all of the positive qualities for Clefable and matching the against the flaws of Tornadus is unfair. The positives for using Torn massively outweigh the negatives, so much so that it deserves S rank. It fits easily on teams, it covers a large portion of the metagame defensively while simultaneously being threatening itself, and provides utility to the team through Knock Off and Taunt, as well as momentum via U-turn. Would be counters such as Ttar, Heatran, and Skarm are either U-turned on, hit by a super-effective move, or have their items Knocked Off.

 

[Cheryl.]

I agree with Kyurem-B to A rank. This thing has so much power it's ridicoulous. Ice beam hits almost everything hard, Mega scizor and ferrothorn can take HP Fires to the face, and stuff like Clefable can take a coverage move like Iron Head. It's such a great mon right now and deserves to be A, even with flaws like bad typing or SR weakness. Also agree with Magnezone to A- as the tier is crawling with stuff like Skarmory and Mega Scizor so Magnezone's support is greatly appreciated. Not so sure about Tornadus for S, but agree with regular Scizor for B+.

 

[Tressed]

-> A Rank

The fact that something as powerful as Serperior is still in A- is astounding to me. This thing is a complete nightmare for balance teams, given how it blows through pretty much everything with a little prior damage. It's high speed backed by the sheer force of Contrary Leaf Storms are enough to tear apart most defensive cores with ease since so few things actually want to deal with +2 Grass / Dragon / Fire coverage. That same high speed helps it out a ton against offense, where it can check or force out threats like Keldeo, Azumarill, Diancie, and Lando-T, and basically forces a sack pretty much every time it comes in. Serperior's also got just enough of a movepool to tech against whatever it wants to. Glare ruins offensive switch ins (aka Torn-T), Taunt prevents passive shit, Sub's good to prevent status and revenge killing. Hell, Whitequeen's proven that Serperior can function in defensive cores with Assault Vest if you need that.

As far as wallbreakers are concerned, I see Serperior to be about equal with Zard-Y. Zard might have a far bigger punch on turn 1, but Serp is way less team reliant and has a far better match up against offense in general. In any case, I find that having Serperior in the same rank as seriously flawed Pokemon such as Celebi and Mega Pinsir is a complete understatement of its capabilities. It's current placement doesn't accurately represent it's use at high level play.

Just gonna steal Halcyon's replay, since it demonstrates Serperior's ability to punch through defensive cores well enough.

 

[Baharoth]

There is one and realy just one thing that keeps Torn from S rank imo and thats Hurricane. Torn is amazing as long as it can keep using Knock off/uturn to chip away on the other team, it can pivot into alot of stuff and can be a pain to switch into but once you get into a situation where you need him to do some damage it all falls apart. I don't know how many situations i had where the outcome of the match was decided by that 70% and personally thats not a situation i wanna be in especially not in tour matches, having to pray to the dice gods everytime that this freaking stab move hits is a pain. It also hurts Torns ability to check some mons, like Keldeo for example. Specs Scald does ~50% to AV torn after SR, thats an easy 2hko. Yeah torn outspeeds and threatens with hurricane but if your opponent is real (or has no choice) he can just stay in and go for another scald and has a 30% chance to get through with it and if Torn was your only Keld answer your now in serious trouble. Thats not exactly what i would call a good Keldeo answer. I guess one could say that the confusion hax chance somewhat compensates that lack of reliability but its just more hax and 50-50 added to it so its not a good compensation imo. At the end of the day Torn is pain for both players, its user has to pray that it hits, and the opponent has to pray it doesn't confuse turning otherwise safe counters into victims. S rank mons should be constant and torn simply isn't.

 

[Queen of Randoms]

This post comes across as very biased in favor of Clefable, ignoring all of Tornadus-T's amazing qualities while highlighting all of Clefables and ignoring its own flaws. Clefable is certainly an amazing Pokemon, but I could just as easily say the rise in offensive Mega Scizor, Jirachi, SDef Taunt Skarm, and other Steels inhibits Clefable's ability to do its job just as easily as you can say Weavile's rise hurts Torn. Tornadus easily outlasts Weavile, with Rocks and LO wearing it down, its inability to switch into Torn, and U-Turn + Regen existing. The only fear it has is Pursuit, which can't even OHKO Torn after rocks anyway (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 198-234 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Susceptibility to status is not a good enough reason to keep something in S. Altaria is also susceptible to status unless running Heal Bell, but that takes a moveslot and an extra turn. Metagross is also useless if burned or paralyzed, bt it's still S rank. In fact, Clefable is the only S rank mon to ever not care about status moves, so I don't quite understand why that makes Torn-T not S material.

You say Flying is not an ideal typing offensively or defensively, but I disagree. Flying is notoriously difficult to switch into offensively, and LO Tornadus shows that. Defensively, Tornadus is a great defensive answer to Keldeo, Gengar, and Serperior while still maintaining offensive pressure, which cannot be said about other checks to these Pokemon (Mega Venu, for example, doesn't have as much offensive presence as Torn-T does, and also loses M=momentum when it is sent out, unlike Torn-T). Common flying resists are usually handled by Superpower or simply U-turned out of, with the added benefit of gaining back 33% health for doing so. You say Clefable doesn't lose out when trying to get around its checks, but when Clef doesn't run Flamethrower, it loses to Scizor and Ferro and other Steels. When it doesn't run Thunder Wave it becomes setup fodder/a free switch in for certain Pokemon. You say Pokemon can easily remove Tornadus-T, but Clefable can also be lured. SD garchomp only needs a LO to beat MG Clef. Thundurus only needs Nasty Plot or Taunt. Kyurem-B only needs Iron Head. Conkeldurr only needs Poison Jab. Manaphy only needs Rain Dance. Etc., etc..

Of course, everything I just said can be picked apart. You can tell me that these Pokemon's moves can be scouted for or that they're uncommon, or whatever. Bt the exact same thing can be said about Torn-T. Sure, Serperior can have Glare, but it needs to know when to use it, and even when it does, it still loses to AV Torn outside of extreme hax. And Clefable can still lose to a Latias if it turns out to be Mega Stored Power. You can say Keldeo can Scald Burn Torn (even though it still checks Keldeo when Burnt), but the same could be said for Altaria.

So taking all of the positive qualities for Clefable and matching the against the flaws of Tornadus is unfair. The positives for using Torn massively outweigh the negatives, so much so that it deserves S rank. It fits easily on teams, it covers a large portion of the metagame defensively while simultaneously being threatening itself, and provides utility to the team through Knock Off and Taunt, as well as momentum via U-turn. Would be counters such as Ttar, Heatran, and Skarm are either U-turned on, hit by a super-effective move, or have their items Knocked Off.

Those are really good points and I definitely did not go into as much detail on Tornadus-T's high points. You are absolutely right in arguing for Tornadus's offensive and defensive power and the generally risk-free usage of him on a team. What I'm trying to say though, is that despite his power and prowess, he is not at a point where he is meta-defining in the way that Clefable is. On your average team you generally have something prepped that can manage Torn-T without as much conscious effort (similar to the way you generally work in a Keldeo check/counter or two naturally), which differentiates it from Clefable in a key way. It's not really a matter of luring in and aiming to take down Tornadus, it's that throughout your average game he's susceptible to a lot more than Clefable. SD LO Chomp, NP/Taunt Thundy, Iron Head Kyu-B; these are all mons that are running these moves/sets specifically with having to beat Clefable in mind, and in that way, at least in my opinion, it makes her more worthy of S-rank and meta-defining. When Clefable isn't specifically taken into account and if you're not able to get around the specific set, I find her a lot more difficult to deal with than Torn. Fighting against Torn definitely requires careful play, but to me not to the same extent, and it's much more manageable situationally in the heat of battle as opposed to something that's absolutely necessary to account for at teambuilder. I guess I'm saying that people look at Clefable as a primary concern and Torn-T as a secondary concern; Clefable causes changes in movesets and rises in usage, where Torn-T more causes changes in playstyle if that makes sense?

In regards to the status argument, Tornadus is something that is coming in and out of battle more consistently, more taking potential hax and status moves here and there than something like Metagross or non-Heal Bell Altaria. Since you're arguing his role is more to play like Clefable and primarily be a pivot, I think his vulnerability is much more important to take into account than the aforementioned S-ranks. It's not so much that anything that struggles with status is barred from S, it's that one of Clefable's major draws is her ability to be a status absorber for the team that isn't nearly as hindered as most other mons. The fact that Clefable is often able to keep on doing her job where Torn-T is either crippled or unable I think is worth noting.

On a side note, generally it's not usually incredibly hard to pick out when Latias is the mega.

Your description to me sounds a lot like an A+ mon. Garchomp comes to mind as he "covers a large portion of the metagame defensively while simultaneously being threatening itself" and "provides utility to the team" (D-Tail, Residual Damage, SR, etc.). They seem splashable to about the same degree - at least to me. Your points are all very valid and very strong, but Tornadus-T to me just does not have the same sway over the meta that Clefable does.

EDIT: And of course, inaccurate Hurricane, yada yada.

 

[Karxrida]

Supporting the Serperior rise. I've seen this thing singlehandedly destroy teams and it's equally threatening to all playstyles. Its high Speed threatens offense while it snowball Special Attack boosting threatens balance and stall. Glare, Taunt, and Knock Off are great ways to cheese some of your would-be switch-ins, while paring it up with a lure for Ferrothorn/Heatran lets you go to town. I seriously freak out whenever I see one because it only needs one turn to turn into a monster, and two to damage teams beyond repair.

 

[Malley]

Supporting the Serperior rise. I've seen this thing singlehandedly destroy teams and it's equally threatening to all playstyles. Its high Speed threatens offense while it snowball Special Attack boosting threatens balance and stall. Glare, Taunt, and Knock Off are great ways to cheese some of your would-be switch-ins, while paring it up with a lure for Ferrothorn/Heatran lets you go to town. I seriously freak out whenever I see one because it only needs one turn to turn into a monster, and two to damage teams beyond repair.

The problem with Serp is that it can only be good at one thing at a time. It needs Taunt to beat Unaware Clefable and Chansey, and Glare to hurt its common balanced switch-ins in Talonflame, Heatran, Tornadus-T, etc. And it really isn't that good against offense, which is much faster than it used to be. 350 Speed is the main balance benchmark; I would say 372 is more like it for offense. Being beaten or severely weakened by Tornadus, Weavile, Lopunny, Manectric, Alakazam, Talonflame, Bisharp, Aerodactyl, and any numbers of Scarfers means it actually has a pretty terrible match-up against offense. It's its lack of priority that really hurts it.

I'm inclined to say it should stay A-. It doesn't hurt balance in the same way that other things like Kyurem-B and Alakazam (also A-) do; they can come in and immediately dent something from the start, while Serperior needs several things removed first before it can do much damage. It's a better sweeper, definitely, but not good enough to be A based on that.

 

[Karxrida]

stuff

For future reference if you see I posted something, wait a bit before responding. I edit the hell out of my posts.

Serperior can still do work against offense because not everything on the opposing team is going to outspeed it (be honest, 113 is fast when 110 is the new standard) and it has passable bulk.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 188-224 (64.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 229-271 (78.6 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 207-243 (71.1 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are some pretty strong hits from some of the things you mention. You also neglected to mention that some of those can't switch in period (necessitating a sack because offense doesn't carry Grass immunities and it can kill slower things, plus it can switch out and try again later) and others get totally wrecked by Glare, which Serperior totally has room to run.

It also doesn't even need that much support to remove things; run a lure for Heatran/Ferro like I said and you now terrorize the other team (Chansey doesn't count cause every Special Attacker not named Keldeo needs it gone, plus it's not hard to deal with anyway (or just run Knock Off)). The last slot is team-dependent; if you want to lure Chansey you Knock Off, if you want to cripple Torn-T you run Glare. Giga Drain is not mandatory.

 

[Malley]

Serperior can still do work against offense because not everything on the opposing team is going to outspeed it (be honest, 113 is fast when 110 is the new standard) and it has passable bulk.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 188-224 (64.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 229-271 (78.6 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 207-243 (71.1 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are some pretty strong hits from some of the things you mention. You also neglected to mention that some of those can't switch in period (necessitating a sack because offense doesn't carry Grass immunities and it can kill slower things, plus it can switch out and try again later) and others get totally wrecked by Glare, which Serperior totally has room to run.

It also doesn't even need that much support to remove things; run a lure for Heatran/Ferro like I said and you now terrorize the other team (Chansey doesn't count cause every Special Attacker not named Keldeo needs it gone, plus it's not hard to deal with anyway (or just run Knock Off)). The last slot is team-dependent; if you want to lure Chansey you Knock Off, if you want to cripple Torn-T you run Glare. Giga Drain is not mandatory.

I feel like that's the wrong way to look at offense. I agree Glare is good vs. offense, but most HO builds aren't going to be switching out against Serperior and all those Pokémon are going to win the 1v1 most of the time (i.e. barring parahax). Serperior is just too weak initially. An unboosted HP Fire does 45.5 - 53.6% to Bisharp, for example. Offense will generally be happy to choose its sac to remove a particular Pokémon on the other team, so I don't see Serperior coming out on top in these situations, especially since the problem vs. offense is generally coming and forcing the offensive mon out.

And I still disagree that 113 is fast vs. offense. Balance, yes, but offense has just gone beyond that now.

 

[Karxrida]

I feel like that's the wrong way to look at offense. I agree Glare is good vs. offense, but most HO builds aren't going to be switching out against Serperior and all those Pokémon are going to win the 1v1 most of the time (i.e. barring parahax). Serperior is just too weak initially. An unboosted HP Fire does 45.5 - 53.6% to Bisharp, for example. Offense will generally be happy to choose its sac to remove a particular Pokémon on the other team, so I don't see Serperior coming out on top in these situations, especially since the problem vs. offense is generally coming and forcing the offensive mon out.

And I still disagree that 113 is fast vs. offense. Balance, yes, but offense has just gone beyond that now.

Who's sending their Serp on a Bisharp or the other things that are going to threaten it? You send it in on something slower and/or weakened and nuke with Leaf Storm.

You are also underestimating 113. There aren't a ton of viable things that outrun it, and of the ones that do many are Megas and thus have competition with each other. You're probably going to see 2 non-Azelf things that outspeed on the opponent's team max.

 

[Malley]

Who's sending their Serp on a Bisharp or the other things that are going to threaten it? You send it in on something slower and/or weakened and nuke with Leaf Storm.

You are also underestimating 113. There aren't a ton of viable things that outrun it, and of the ones that do many are Megas and thus have competition with each other. You're probably going to see 2 non-Azelf things that outspeed on the opponent's team max.

The only things on offense that Serperior can really threaten with an unboosted Leaf Storm are Keldeo, Diggersby, and Azumarill. I'm sure I'm missing something, so what else can it outspeed and OHKO on offense?

Even if it can revenge kill other things, that's just not as big as it is against other playstyles. Serperior will generally be forced out by whatever comes in.

Non-Mega-wise, there are Weavile, Tornadus-T, Raikou, Starmie, Talonflame, and Alakazam, plus anything you might choose to put a Scarf on. And it can't reliably beat things like Gengar and Latios.

 

[Sochlo]

That's a little silly since you only send out Serp when you're absolutely sure you're going to use Leaf Storm. A 130 BP STAB move is going to hurt anything that doesn't resist it even unboosted, it 2HKOs Clefable for example (balance) and puts a huge dent on Gengar without a boost (offense).

113 Speed is still good no matter what your imaginary "standard" is. Even then, most faster things either don't want to eat a Leaf Storm (Weavile, Alakazam), or are severely crippled by Glare (Torn, Lopunny, etc). The problem with "it can only run one of Glare, Taunt, and Knock Off" is that it's mostly team dependent and you're never sure what it's running so you still have to take that risk.

I don't feel strongly about Serp moving up, but it's more threatening than you make it out to be.

 

[Albacore]

Magnezone to A-

Erm yeah bludz basically nailed this one so I don't really have much to add lol. Pairs up really well with a lot of super strong mons like MAlt and Weavile, Skarm and Scizor are a lot more common now and Ferro is still used a lot. One thing bludz forgot to mention is that it was originally dropped to B+ becuase of the prevalence of Shed Shell, which literally no one runs anymore to my knowledge, so yeah, A- makes sense.

Serperior to A

I can honestly see this happen. Serp is useful against pretty much every playstyle and only needs a handful of things removed to absolutely wreck teams, and needs no effort or prediction whatsoever to set up and sweep. Most of its checks are quite easy to wear down via entry hazards or lure besides I guess Torn-T which is vulnerable to Glare so it's not too hard to support; even if it's kinda useless when its checks are still active and healthy which is probably its greatest downfall, and the main thing which could prevent it from being A rank. It's also an absurdly splashable mon which fits really well on a lot of teams. It's pretty much the only non-mega grass type which fits well on offense besides I guess Celebi which has kinda fallen out of favor recently, which makes it a very good offensive glue and FWG core completer, especially on Sand teams where it tends to fit really well. A rank doesn't feel like much of a stretch to me.

Klefki to A

Okay so I sincerely think this thing is on par with Skarm and Ferro at this point. The main reason being that, unlike these two, it fits really well on a lot of offensive teams for its ability to emergency check sweepers which makes it less of a potential liability for the rest of the team. Priority on Spikes is also a great plus over these two since it guarantees you can set up 2 layers as long as you don't sack it.
It's a bit like Garchomp in the sense that it emergency checks Pokemon which happen to be very scary for offensive teams, all the while not having the same passiveness you usally associate with hazard setters. The rise of Weavile in particular is a really good thing for it since it's an excellent check to that, it also checks Torn-T, standard DD Altaria with Magnet Rise (can even take a Fire Blast from DD+Fire Blast variants), and Fairies in general, which are often a huge pain for offense. Toxic is also a really neat option for crippling bulky Ground- Electric- and Water- types which stuff like Talonflaem and Bisharp really appreciate. It also gets Screens and Fairy Lock and Heal Block and other cool yet team-dependant stuff.

Klefki just combines a ton of really desirable traits and patches up a lot of holes in a lot of teams, all the while providing the team with really good utility. It's imo noticeably better than Jirachi and, as I said, on par with the 2 other Steel-type Spikers that reside in A rank, and should be bumped up.

Mega Diancie to A?

This is less of an actual nomination and more of something I'd just like to see discussed. Whenever anyone asks what the best megas in OU are, people always mention Metagross, Altaria, Lopunny, XZard, Scizor, Sableye, but I rarely hear anyone say Diancie is up there with the rest. Heck, I hear more people consider YZard and MGarde to be amongst the best megas in OU. I'm not really sure whether this is just people overlooking Diancie, if the other megas in A+ are just really good and Diancie isn't quite up there but still A+ material, or if it's not really considered as an A+ threat anymore by a lot of players.
I'm not sure I can point to many recent meta trends that screw it over, I guess the rise of SpD Skarm and Scizor is an problem, but at the same time, Torn-T's and Mega Altaria's rise in usage, the slight decline in usage of Mega Metagross, and Garchomp taking over Landorus-T as the premier bulky Ground type are all good things for it. Maybe it's just that Diancie didn't get worse, but rather, all the other megas got better. I guess this all depends on how important we view the mega slot at this point in the metagame, with 3 Megas in S rank, it's more valuable than ever and maybe we should take that into account.

In any case, I'd like people to discuss Mega Diancie's placement in A+, since, as far as I can tell, a lot of people don't consider it to be on the same level as the other A+ megas. Plus, if my memory serves correctly, it hasn't been seriously discussed in a loooong time so I'm curious to see what people think of it now.

 

[QueenOfHax]

I definitely support Kyurem-B for A rank.
Looking at S and A+ ranks, there are a grand total of 4 pokemon that aren't hit by its ice/electric/ground combo for SE damage: Clefable, Mega Scizor, Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye.
Mega Lopunny is frail as hell so it's not checking Kyu-B anytime soon and Mega Sableye gets 2HKO'd by Ice Beam, leaving Clefable and Mega Scizor as its only semi-reliable checks depending on its 4th move (HP Fire or Iron Head) and even so, if Clefable isn't specially defensive Ice Beam will do the job just fine. Everything else just gets OHKO or 2HKO'd with the right move.

Something I feel that needs mentioned (especially now that BP is a hot topic) is that Kyu-B is arguably one of the best BP receivers in the tier - hell even a single Speed Boost from Scolipede lets it clean house lategame with its sheer power and coverage, and let's not even get started at what happens if you manage to pass more than that.

 

[DennisEG]

About Torn-T i really dont think is rank S worthy, why ? well in base the sets people are running Torn is more used like AV pivot not to offensive mon, also this mon stab is the unreliable Hurricane which can make you lose your torn if you dont hit. The LO set yes is dangerous but still handle it because again you rely on Hurricane, another reason is the phycal bulk isnt than great at all, Priority is a thing in OU. Is a fast mon and great pivot that's it, dont think is a huge threat to handle it mostly this days that Weaville is so popular and not even A+ rank.

Kyurem-B for sure need to climb that rank, this monster threat every balance squad Fusion, EP, Ice Beam hit basically every balance core and on top of that there are other versions with Iron Head + Hp Fire so you gotta scout for set in that make you lose momentum, the switch in is Clefable but still had a change to 2HKO the standar spread. The speed isnt than great at all but for wallbreaking doesnt need that more speed, and i think that's one of the reason why KyuB isnt more than A.

Magnezone im not sure about this, because Alt spam is real and with this core help a lot, the choice item make it a momentum killer and a lot Chomps and Hippos running around to spam volt switch, I only sure that the scarf set is more usefull than the Specs simple because in the actual meta there are so many threats so you need speed to kill them before they kill you, but im not agree or disagree with this.

 

[Malley]

That's a little silly since you only send out Serp when you're absolutely sure you're going to use Leaf Storm. A 130 BP STAB move is going to hurt anything that doesn't resist it even unboosted, it 2HKOs Clefable for example (balance) and puts a huge dent on Gengar without a boost (offense).

113 Speed is still good no matter what your imaginary "standard" is. Even then, most faster things either don't want to eat a Leaf Storm (Weavile, Alakazam), or are severely crippled by Glare (Torn, Lopunny, etc). The problem with "it can only run one of Glare, Taunt, and Knock Off" is that it's mostly team dependent and you're never sure what it's running so you still have to take that risk.

I don't feel strongly about Serp moving up, but it's more threatening than you make it out to be.

I was just saying it's not so good against offense, in response to one specific point in Karxrida's post - I could see it being A based on its prowess against balance, which is considerable, and to a lesser extent against stall.

 

[Srn]

Magnezone to A-

Erm yeah bludz basically nailed this one so I don't really have much to add lol. Pairs up really well with a lot of super strong mons like MAlt and Weavile, Skarm and Scizor are a lot more common now and Ferro is still used a lot. One thing bludz forgot to mention is that it was originally dropped to B+ becuase of the prevalence of Shed Shell, which literally no one runs anymore to my knowledge, so yeah, A- makes sense.

Serperior to A

I can honestly see this happen. Serp is useful against pretty much every playstyle and only needs a handful of things removed to absolutely wreck teams, and needs no effort or prediction whatsoever to set up and sweep. Most of its checks are quite easy to wear down via entry hazards or lure besides I guess Torn-T which is vulnerable to Glare so it's not too hard to support; even if it's kinda useless when its checks are still active and healthy which is probably its greatest downfall, and the main thing which could prevent it from being A rank. It's also an absurdly splashable mon which fits really well on a lot of teams. It's pretty much the only non-mega grass type which fits well on offense besides I guess Celebi which has kinda fallen out of favor recently, which makes it a very good offensive glue and FWG core completer, especially on Sand teams where it tends to fit really well. A rank doesn't feel like much of a stretch to me.

Klefki to A

Okay so I sincerely think this thing is on par with Skarm and Ferro at this point. The main reason being that, unlike these two, it fits really well on a lot of offensive teams for its ability to emergency check sweepers which makes it less of a potential liability for the rest of the team. Priority on Spikes is also a great plus over these two since it guarantees you can set up 2 layers as long as you don't sack it.
It's a bit like Garchomp in the sense that it emergency checks Pokemon which happen to be very scary for offensive teams, all the while not having the same passiveness you usally associate with hazard setters. The rise of Weavile in particular is a really good thing for it since it's an excellent check to that, it also checks Torn-T, standard DD Altaria with Magnet Rise (can even take a Fire Blast from DD+Fire Blast variants), and Fairies in general, which are often a huge pain for offense. Toxic is also a really neat option for crippling bulky Ground- Electric- and Water- types which stuff like Talonflaem and Bisharp really appreciate. It also gets Screens and Fairy Lock and Heal Block and other cool yet team-dependant stuff.

Klefki just combines a ton of really desirable traits and patches up a lot of holes in a lot of teams, all the while providing the team with really good utility. It's imo noticeably better than Jirachi and, as I said, on par with the 2 other Steel-type Spikers that reside in A rank, and should be bumped up.

Mega Diancie to A?

This is less of an actual nomination and more of something I'd just like to see discussed. Whenever anyone asks what the best megas in OU are, people always mention Metagross, Altaria, Lopunny, XZard, Scizor, Sableye, but I rarely hear anyone say Diancie is up there with the rest. Heck, I hear more people consider YZard and MGarde to be amongst the best megas in OU. I'm not really sure whether this is just people overlooking Diancie, if the other megas in A+ are just really good and Diancie isn't quite up there but still A+ material, or if it's not really considered as an A+ threat anymore by a lot of players.
I'm not sure I can point to many recent meta trends that screw it over, I guess the rise of SpD Skarm and Scizor is an problem, but at the same time, Torn-T's and Mega Altaria's rise in usage, the slight decline in usage of Mega Metagross, and Garchomp taking over Landorus-T as the premier bulky Ground type are all good things for it. Maybe it's just that Diancie didn't get worse, but rather, all the other megas got better. I guess this all depends on how important we view the mega slot at this point in the metagame, with 3 Megas in S rank, it's more valuable than ever and maybe we should take that into account.

In any case, I'd like people to discuss Mega Diancie's placement in A+, since, as far as I can tell, a lot of people don't consider it to be on the same level as the other A+ megas. Plus, if my memory serves correctly, it hasn't been seriously discussed in a loooong time so I'm curious to see what people think of it now.

I dont think serp should rise, it relies too much on leaf storm to do damage and its coverage is pretty ass. Talon is also common and everywhere, and although you can run some innovation like coba berry+hp rock its generally not worth it unless u have a zone or something. Id say its just too easy to check with venu, tran, talon, weavile, torn-t, etc.

Im aight with zone to A-, I think keys to A is cool too; magnet rise lets it set spikes freely on the grounds that love switching in to absorb t-wave.
One set that I think ppl have actually forgotten about with zone is air balloon+magnet rise which lets u trap excadrill, this opens up so much possibility to sweep with things that are usually revenged by exca, like talon and malt. It's a cool set :]

Diancie should stay A+ even more because its such an awesome check to torn-t. Metagame has shifted both against and in favor in different ways as u pointed out, and its coverage and power is still potent vs balance. I think diancie is really tricky, just like azu, because its a fairy type that isn't stopped by fire, which makes it difficult to handle. Diamond storm stab will easily 2hko weakened checks like venu and amoong, and having a bird check+char-x+y check that fits on offense is just awesome as a whole. It shud stay where it is.

About torn-t, I think it should stay simply because i think its offensive presence is being overhyped a little. Yeah, its a good pivot, and yes, it has awesome utility in u-turn and knock off. But keep in mind that u-turn and knock off is what the av set is doing 70% of the time. And more often than not av torn-t is also timid...It's definitely utility but its hardly "offensive presence."

Not to mention that, AV or LO, the basis of your offensive presence is a 70% accurate move :/ It's not exactly something to argue for, especially in terms of a raise. The basis of you checking half the shit you need to (serp, keld, volc) is also happening 70% of the time. Thats like saying your bisharp check is a focus blast terrakion, i wouldn't be too comfortable with that :/
I guess the acro+no item set is a thing but 100 attack stat that isn't adamant and isn't boosted by an item is kinda weak, and without av it's pretty frail too. It's a weird in between set that i dont rly like :<

 

[Poek]

I've been using Mega Diancie a lot since it came out, and as an avid user of it, I don't think it should drop. The reason being is that it's still the offensive juggernaut it always has been with 160/160 offenses as well as an ok 110 speed tier. Apart from being really good at the offensive department, it takes on key threats that have been getting usage as of late, and even if its defenses might not seem like much, they are enough to take them on. It's an offensive check to Zard-X lacking Earthquake, Zard-Y, Bisharp, Garchomp, Keldeo, Weavile, Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Mega Pinsir and I could go on. It doesn't switch into most of them but Diancie beats them 1v1 or it can switch into a certain move. Sure, Mega Gardevoir's ability in Pixilate makes it stronger than Mega Diancie, but Mega Diancie's ability is just about as good. It makes your opponent make suboptimal plays, for example, Garchomp with a Mega Diancie on the opposing team is hesitant of setting up Stealth Rock, and it's more likely that he will go for Earthquake, which has a lot of inmunities and they are more turns without hazards chipping away your health per turn. Having Magic Bounce means that it won't be widdled as much by Talonflame, which likes to spam Will-O-Wisp to widdle its would be counters and it means a free attack for Mega Diancie, not really good for your opponent. Also, mega evolving as of late hasn't been that hard considering most of the Mega Diancie's pack Protect, and the opponent tends to overpredict this to not lose any momentum, this is where you should take advantage of this, play smart and Mega Diancie will do a lot of damage to the opposing teams. The last slot is not always Protect, you can run HP Fire to bop Ferrothorn/Scizor, staples on a lot of balanced teams btw, Rock Polish though I don't really recommend it and Sharpen, which I believe it's completely superior than Calm Mind and actually wallbreaks, I mean, is there anyone who has really used Calm Mind Mega Diancie? idk I think its completely terrible but I digress... The omnipresence of Hippowdon doesn't hurt it either as it boosts its Special Defense, as long as it has Sand Stream as his ability.

tl;dr Mega Diancie's offensive capabilities plus neat speed tier allows to OHKO a couple of offensive mons and kinda decent defensive typing with ok defenses allows it to take on common metagame trends such as Tornadus-T, Weavile, Wisp Talonflame and Zard X.

 

[Force Majeure]

I really like the idea of Kyurem-B in A.

I definitely support Kyurem-B for A rank...

...Something I feel that needs mentioned (especially now that BP is a hot topic) is that Kyu-B is arguably one of the best BP receivers in the tier - hell even a single Speed Boost from Scolipede lets it clean house lategame with its sheer power and coverage, and let's not even get started at what happens if you manage to pass more than that.

I'm not sure if it's generally the best idea to bring up receiving prowess as most wallbreakers are fantastically frightening when passed Speed. Metagross, CharY, Garchomp all come to mind. I do think this is a slightly better argument for Kyu-B as Teravolt patches up a few would-be problems that would have to be removed whether or not you're using BP; IIRC it's one of the few things that can beat M-Venusaur and Rotom-W, and its coverage between Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, and Earth Power is overpowering.

For something with an incomplete movepool, it provides many viable sets with a few acceptable permutations. HP Fire is de rigueur at this point for Scizor and Ferro; Iron Head for clef + fairy deterrent. Physically-based mixed LO Roost + 3 Attacks is my personal favorite right now; you can tweak the EVs in a few ways to hit certain speed tiers. SR weakness and unfortunate defensive typing mean that it won't be in A+ ever.

I'll post about Klefki later.

 

[AM]

I'd keep M-Diancie at A+ for the fact it's gonna necessitate a lot more threat control than your average mon in A. Having Magic Bounce is a godsend for something with strong offensive capabilities sitting at a 110 speed tier. When people look past the crummy Protect / 3 attack set by itself and realize it hits hard as hell, can't be status'd by conventional means and only needs a couple of some of the strongest attackers out of the picture such as Sand Rush Excadrill and BD Azumarill, it's a pretty good fit in A+. I can't put it on the same level as most of the megas in A who are either more linear in their approach in how you tackle them or have more concrete problems that sort of can hold them back in a majority of matches.

Kyurem-B to A seems good at this point. So much Hippo Balance it just punishes a bunch of slower teambuilding in general and its switch ins are pretty garbage if not specific to its variant.

No comment on Magnezone, although it seems a bit better than when it initially dropped from A-.

Wouldn't mind Klefki in A but not feeling too strongly about that.

Torn-T to S I don't agree with. It does all these things on paper that makes it seem like S but in practice unless you just so happen to have a team that autoloses to Torn-T over-reliance on Hurricane and dependency on the coverage move to hit certain targets or be totally blocked by them can be a problem it faces. It's by no means a bad mon but S under the guise of being that centralizing I don't think cuts it. A+ stuff can be established as being centralizing as well and it fits perfectly there.

Serp shouldn't rise, it's fine in A-. I wouldn't put it a cut above stuff like Mew and Volcarona.

 

[bludz]

Klefki to A: Unsure
This is a very interesting nomination and one that I had considered making myself. Personally I am slightly unsure but I don't think I would be against a rise. One of the best checks to Weavile which actually essentially lets you get free turns of setup, great check to Mega fairies and a very nice emergency button. It has enough variability with options to run Toxic, Heal Block, Fairy Lock, different coverage moves and even a Dual Screens set (which I've been using lately and finds plenty of opportunities to set up in this metagame) for there to be merit for an argument to rise IMO. I guess it's just a bit awkward in the sense that it's a utility mon without recovery or much offensive presence yet it fits well onto offensive teams. So like I said I'm kinda neutral on this but seems like a legit consideration.

Serperior to A: Leaning toward Disagree
This is also food for thought but I'm a bit more against this one. I mean it does have a pretty good matchup against offense but teams have gotten even faster and it's susceptible to most forms of priority outside of Aqua Jet. Doesn't really have much versatility though I suppose we see Rotom-W in A rank and it really only does one thing at this point in the metagame. Certainly one of the best mons in A- (potentially the best or second best if Kyurem-Black leaves) and it doesn't suffer from role competition like Raikou however it is similar to Volcarona in the sense that it has a few counters that are total stops to it such as Talonflame and Heatran (if you run HP Ground then even more shit walls you so yeah).

Mega Diancie to A: Disagree
When you consider just how brutal this thing's STAB combo is and how difficult it is to actually wall when you consider HP [Fire] vs Earth Power or even the potential use of Psychic I just can't see it dropping to A. Yeah it's not one of the top 5 Megas at the moment but still a great offensive mon that is quite difficult to switch into with the mixed attacking capabilities reminiscent of Kyurem-Black. Being an offensive check to Zard X, Talonflame, Torn-T and Bisharp once Mega Evolved, along with all its other qualities gives it an awesome niche so yeah I can't see this thing dropping.

 

[Venoxio]

Excuse me, but why is Conk in B- Rank? It should be at least B Rank.
Strengths:
Strong STAB priority in Mach Punch
It dosen't mind getting burned because of Guts
Iron Fist boosts power of punching moves, which are most of it's moves
Knock Off
Attack and HP are great
Decent coverage
Great Trick Room sweeper

Weaknesses:
Bad defensive typing
Checked easily by Fairies
Speed is abysmal

Conkeldurr fits the bill to be a B Rank in my opinion, based on all the points I stated above.

Also, I agree with all the points bludz said and all the nominations, except I agree with Klefki going to A. Serperior and Mega Diancie should stay in their respective ranks.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Excuse me, but why is Conk in B- Rank? It should be at least B Rank.
Strengths:
Strong STAB priority in Mach Punch
It dosen't mind getting burned because of Guts
Iron Fist boosts power of punching moves, which are most of it's moves
Knock Off
Attack and HP are great
Decent coverage
Great Trick Room sweeper

Weaknesses:
Bad defensive typing
Checked easily by Fairies
Speed is abysmal

Conkeldurr fits the bill to be a B Rank in my opinion, based on all the points I stated above.

Also, I agree with all the points bludz said and all the nominations, except I agree with Klefki going to A. Serperior and Mega Diancie should stay in their respective ranks.

Conkeldurr is not favorable in this meta at all right now. It has such massive flaws that still causes it to lose to basically all teams. While making a nice last-ditch effort to stop Lopunny or Tyranitar due to Mach Punch, it is not enough to carry him up to B rank. It is certainly as effective or even less effective than say MegaDoom or Infernape. Conkeldurr should stay B-.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I would definitely say that Tornadus is as dominating as Clefable, albeit without as much history as a dominating mon. It's got the offensive presence, the defensive presence, the utility, the ability to outlast its counters, the splashable-factor, the speed, and the movepool. I guess, in my opinion, the combination of all the things Tornadus has going for it make it a clear contender for S rank. I find it is consistently effective in every match it is a part of, which cannot be said about things like Mega Metagross. Even if the opponent has a Pokemon like Mega Manectric, which is supposed to be a 100% counter to it, it is not difficult at all for Manectric to be worn down and Tornadus to remain healthy due to Regen+U-turn. This combination was a major reason it was banned in Gen V, since many of its counters were simply overwhelmed by constant LO Hurricanes. The same can be said of Torn today, except that now it has Knock Off to wear down stuff like Raikou and Rotom-W more easily, while giving up its 100% accurate Hurricanes. I truly believe Tornadus is as close to a perfect OU mon as we have outside of S rank right now. It has it all, and the only real downside to using it is the risk of 70% accurate Hurricane.

Yea all valid points. Tornadus on paper is a very low risk mon. However in practice i just think people will look at the fact that it relies on a highly inaccurate move to alleviate its relative passiveness, as while knock off and u turn provide great utility it won't be damaging most foes that well and will be reliant on teammates. In a rain oriented meta much like BW2 i would push Tornadus for S rank because under rain its main flaw is gone and its completely reliable in doing its job. Tornadus even now is super splash able on rain teams as it serves as a great grass check while spamming off accurate hurricanes, but rain simply isn't dominating anymore.

 

[Patolegend!]

Conkeldurr is not favorable in this meta at all right now. It has such massive flaws that still causes it to lose to basically all teams. While making a nice last-ditch effort to stop Lopunny or Tyranitar due to Mach Punch, it is not enough to carry him up to B rank. It is certainly as effective or even less effective than say MegaDoom or Infernape. Conkeldurr should stay B-.

Before you say that it is not favorable in this meta at all, I've had loads of experience with it and it can really put in a lot of work, despite its flaws.

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower / Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch / Poison Jab
- Mach Punch

This set outspeeds a lot of things that it's not supposed to, including Skarm, Azu, and uninvested Scizor, and does major damage to them. I have it paired with RP Mega Diancie, who really appreciates them being gone.

People forget the sheer power of this mon - it OHKO's TankChomp, Lando after Intimidate, and easily 2HKO's Skarm and Slowbro.

Superpower is incredibly powerful, almost OHKOing Rotom after rocks:

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 208-247 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not many Celebis can take it on, as most don't carry Psychic, while it 2HKO's Quagsire, as it ignores the attack drops:

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It can be a real terror against fat defensive teams (as he outspeeds the majority of fat mons), while giving offensive sand teams and weavile offense hell with LO Mach Punch.

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It does, however get forced out easily by the Latis (set up fodder for RP Diancie), Gardevoir, and a number of faster threats, so it works better on a balanced/bulky offense team.

Another flaw is that it can be Bulky and Setup Bait, or a Frail Beast.

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In summary, it probably is worthy of a spot in B, until its Sheer Force set becomes the standard, and everybody starts trying to burn it once more!