Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Mega diancie moving down to A is a little ridiculous, imo. I've used quite a lot, and it is an absolute monster. In reality, it has very few flaws, it's just that those flaws are pretty major.

Cons:
-really bad defensive typing
-50/110/110 defenses aren't as great as they sound
-horrendous speed pre-mega
-has to go mixed to use both stabs

Keep in mind that that's really not very much at all, the thing is, they are pretty severe. However, it's numerous positive traits greatly mitigate this.

Pros:
-great speed tier
-great offensive stats on both sides
-magic bounce
-wonderful offensive typing.
-decent bulk for an offensive mon
-multiple unique sets that all perform very well against an archetype.

With these in mind, I'd argue that diancie is almost justifiable for S rank (ALMOST, not quite). It's most common set, protect+3 attacks, is great for the ability to scout for stuff like bullet punch and it lets it mega evolve easiest, and is, for this reason, perhaps its most reliable. However, often people will be caught off guard by its other two most common sets, namely RP and CM. Thanks to Magic Bounce, it's CM set destroys Stall, as many don't have the ability to muscle past it on the special side after a boost or two, and those that can break it on the physical side are usually dead before they can. It's pseudo-immunity to status makes it easy to set up on stall teams and really hard to stop once it is going. The last is rock polish and, while not always the most reliable, is probably the most deadly against offense. Even scizor and ferrothorn aren't even entirely safe against it, as HP fire is actually a very viable option (though it isn't usually preferable).

Tl; dr, mega diancie is a very dangerous mon w/ S rank pros, but a few major flaws that limit it from performing at the same level. However, it fits A+ perfectly.

 

[Lucario1313]

Torn isn't really S worthy. Clef sets up on it barring Iron Tail/Sludge Wave variants which are incredibly rare, Weavile, Lopunny, Manectric, Aerodactyl all outspeed and can OHKO (some after rocks). It's not really that bulky on the Physical side, and its hits aren't really strong enough to OHKO so many things - things like Altaria that can just set up on it.

And don't get me started on Hurricane. I literally miss more than 50% of those. That is fact, by that way, not confirmation bias- I counted over the course of 15 games in a row and landed 22 out of 46 Hurricanes. When something's strongest STAB is either really weak (Air Slash) or really innacurate, it's really really worrisome.

Furthermore, it's Rocks weak which means that even with Regenerator it struggles to heal up without a lot of team support, especially when you realise that it allows a choice of either Ferrothorn, Heatran or Garchomp to set rocks in its face depending on its coverage.

Obviously it's a great glue mon and easy to throw into teams but it's not good enough in my eyes.

Quick statistical test (1 prop z test) shows that if the real probability of hitting a hurricane is .7, then the probability of hitting 22 or fewer out of 46 is only .000516 (which is .0516%). Normally you'd use that to conclude that the real probability of hitting isn't .7, but in this case since we know for sure it is, you either counted wrong (why did you click hurricane 46 times in 15 battles? 3 per battle, every battle seems like a lot to me) or it's a big fluke. If your numbers are real, you got haxed really hard, and we're not supposed to use hax to rank mons.

Also, lets not forget about torn t's ability to get confusion. .7(.3) = .21% to confuse a mon every time you click hurricane. Mons that should be able to kill you no problem (say they have a kyurem B in but you really want the hurricane damage for some reason) have around a 10% chance of taking the damage then hurting themselves more, wasting a turn and a 21% chance of being crippled after your torn dies. Of course this could be considered hax, but it does help to mitigate the problem of missing.

 

[TPP]

Just wanted to say that Mega Absol (sitting in C rank) shares most of the positive factors that people mentioned for Mega Diancie (great speed, magic bounce, good offensive stats, good offensive typing) and it has a pretty decent special movepool including Ice Beam and Fire Blast. Too bad Weavile became popular.

Anyways, Diancie is still a really good mega, being one of the few viable rock types in the metagame. Being a rock type actually gives it more reasons to stay in a higher rank due to the fact it can check Zard X, Torn-T, and it's able to get rid of multiple flying types in the tier. It's also able to setup with Rock Polish, even though Protect is somewhat necessary on it. So yeah, I don't have the best reasons, but overall I don't see Diancie being less viable, especially since it can take on high ranking threats such as Mega Zard X and Mega Altaria.

Please don't kill me XD

 

[EternalSnowman]

Quick question, is there going to be a move for Infernape to B? I think there was a lot of discussion about it back a few pages, and I thought that it was decided to be moved up?

Just so this isn't a shitpost, I would say that M-Diancie shouldn't move down. It's ridiculous offenses (160/160) is the only one in the tier to surpass Kyurem-B (Correct me if I'm wrong). Magic Bounce is invaluable for a sweeper meaning that it won't be Toxic'd or T'Wave'd by walls and Thundurus/Klefki. On top of which, it has a great STAB combo and amazing coverage in Earth Power. Despite its weakness to steel, you can always run a team slot to support it, like Magnezone or Infernape or whatever else.

 

[AM]

Quick question, is there going to be a move for Infernape to B? I think there was a lot of discussion about it back a few pages, and I thought that it was decided to be moved up?

Just so this isn't a shitpost, I would say that M-Diancie shouldn't move down. It's ridiculous offenses (160/160) is the only one in the tier to surpass Kyurem-B (Correct me if I'm wrong). Magic Bounce is invaluable for a sweeper meaning that it won't be Toxic'd or T'Wave'd by walls and Thundurus/Klefki. On top of which, it has a great STAB combo and amazing coverage in Earth Power. Despite its weakness to steel, you can always run a team slot to support it, like Magnezone or Infernape or whatever else.

Infernape isn't moving up

 

[QuickBH]

Infernape isn't moving up

Could you give valid reasoning, please? The lot of us actually gave very valid points as to why Infernape should move up, and Infernape becoming increasingly more common on teams means he's well more than just some awkward niche Pokemon. Infernape is definitely more relevant than the likes of Mega Houndoom and Mandibuzz and more on par with the likes of Azelf and Crawdaunt.

 

[AM]

Could you give valid reasoning, please? The lot of us actually gave very valid points as to why Infernape should move up, and Infernape becoming increasingly more common on teams means he's well more than just some awkward niche Pokemon. Infernape is definitely more relevant than the likes of Mega Houndoom and Mandibuzz and more on par with the likes of Azelf and Crawdaunt.

because its initial rise already came with all those factors in mind and was decided to stay where it is. It still has its share of flaws for placement of a fire type pokemon on a team while its positives took it out of the old placement it was in. You could try to keep making a case but it was already discussed to stay where it is between team so not a whole lot to say other than the negatives need to be focused as well.

 

[Ramses]

this is going to get a lot of flak from people, I'm sure, but I would like to nominate Eelektross to D rank.

I came across this mon while thinking about what threats give me the most trouble checking in team builder. Electrics are very difficult to cover right now, with Mega Manectric, Raikou, and Thundurus being monsters capable of dismantling balance teams. Tornadus-T is also a difficult mon to check, as are Manaphy, Talon, and Ground mons. With an Assault Vest, Eelektross is a check to all of these at once, though mainly just electrics and Torn-T. It does provide a lot of team support though through Knock Off and momentum with Volt Switch. Common switch-ins to Electric types are Hippowdon, AV Tangrowth, Latis, Heatran, Dragalge, Jirachi, Celebi, etc. None of these want to switch in on a Knock Off. It is either super effective on these, or removes an item they are utterly dependent on (except Hippo, but it can't do much back to Eel). Heatran and Dragalge need their items for any form of recovery, and are quickly worn down without them, Lati takes over half from Knock Off and loses a ton of power from the lack of LO, Tangrwoth becomes laughably frail on the special side without AV, Rachi and Celebi take close to half and are forced to recover (Jirachi also eats a Flamethrower, which does some decent damage). But more importantly is the things Eel checks, not the things people expect to check it.

Eelektross takes negligible damage from Torn-T outside of Knock Off, Easily switching into Hurricane and grabbing momentum with Volt Switch or Knocking Off the opponent's switch-in's item. Manectric can't do anything to Eel, and is 3HKOed at minimum by Flamethrower (47% chance to 2HKO after rocks). Thundy is 2HKOed by HP Ice and has only a possible 3HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks. Raikou can't touch Eel, and gets its precious Leftovers/AV Knocked Off. Excadrill takes upwards of 75% from Flamethrower, and can only 3HKO with adamant Rock Slide.

The main concern with Eel is that it seems outclassed by Raikou as an AV user. But Eel has three main things that it has over Raikou. The first is Knock Off, which cripples many of the common switch-ins to Electric types as I mentioned above. The second is Flamethrower, which means Ferrothorn is not a check to it (and some rely on Ferro to check stuff like Raikou), the third and most important is an immunity to Ground, meaning Hippo may not be a smart switch-in, and it doesn't become a liability against sand teams like Mane and Raikou can be.

With all this in mind, Eelektross is actually pretty cool if your team needs a pivot that can switch into Torn, Electrics, etc, while also being immune to Ground.

here is a replay against Subject 18 for those of you who demand high level replays. Before you say anything, yes I know I don't have SR on my team, I just challenged Sub for fun before realizing that Eel was actually effective and I changed the team around afterwards.

The set I used

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Giga Drain (for Hippo, though it can still be a threat if it has Toxic)
- Flamethrower

There may be a better spread but this is the one I have been using.

EDIT: also why has there been 0 discussion about my Torn-T for S nom a few pages back? I would like to see what people think about that. It's definitely one of the best mons in the tier atm

Can I second this? Sorry I don't have replays since I'm on mobile.

Eel imo is somewhat better than AV Raikou once you see the hidden gems in Eelectross. One thing it has over Raikou is having no weakness unless facing Smack Down or Mold Breaker/Teravolt users. Secondly its move pool is nigh untouchable compared to Raikou. At most you'll only have Volt Switch, TBolt, ESense/SBall, and HP Ice on Raikou. Eelectross not only has Flamethrower. It has Giga Drain, Hidden Powers of different types, Aqua Tail, Drain Punch, and most importantly Knock Off. Knock Off is the prize here as it can slap off Specs and Orbs increasing its survivability by 50/30%. Compound that with Recovery in Drain Punch or Giga Drain (SE hits of course) and this fucker Is hard to kill. Thirdly albeit somewhat saddening with Eelectross' low speed it can afford to invest into HP and excellent mixed stats making it bulkier than Raikou despite having 80 SpD compared to 110.

The amount of things it can check is wonderful ranging from nearly every SpAttacker in the tier. Of course it's flaw is that its slow and atm more of a niche mon with only having AV as a viable OU set. Knock Off would mess it up tho as it loses the checking ability.

Again I'll try to get to my PC and get some replays if ever necessary.

The set I used tho is different

Click imo

Eelectross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Atk / 100 SpA / 112 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Flamethrower

Drain Punch OHKO Bisharp and 2HKO (M) Tyrant with the investment. 112 SpD makes most SpA's 3HKO's. The rest dumped into SpA which is pretty good as it 2HKO most weak targets to VoltS and 2HKO Fereo/M Scizor with Flamethrower.

 

[TURBODERP]

Speaking of Electric types, I'd like to nominate Lanturn to D. Honestly, I'm not quite sure why it got moved down so harshly, but if Magnezone (and other electrics in general) is rising (in usage/viability) and Tornadus-T is one of the best/most used A+ mons (even if it doesn't make it to S), Lanturn's niche becomes more prominent.

The niche being a pokemon that stops the Volt part of VoltTurn teams and is a cleric at the same time, while countering nearly all relevant electric OU mons.

Countering Electrics
For example, the most damaging move your standard Specs Magnezone has (HP Fire) does a pittance to Lanturn (taking the standard RU pivot set here).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 48-57 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Scarf HP Fire does just over 8%. It's barely even chip damage at that point after Lefties.

How about Mega Manectric? Overheat tops out at 18.4%. Now, AV Raikou?

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 72-85 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

In return, you 5HKO with Scald (assuming no burns). Even Specs Raikou 5HKO's without SR up and a burn will likely let you win 1v1.

Thundurus is also one of the most dangerous mons out there, but Lanturn laughs at it too. The mixed set maxes out at 45% with Superpower (Knock off does mid 30's which is annoying), but Scald is a likely 3HKO back (or you can Toxic and pivot out). Standard LO Thundurus needs to hit 3 Focus Blasts in a row to beat you, which is pretty damn unlikely, and you can simply pivot out or fire off Scalds/Toxic.

Countering Tornadus
Lanturn also has a handy ability to counter Life Orb Tornadus T.

Hurricane tops out at 25.6% making it a 5HKO at best, while Superpower does a max of 40.5% for the first hit. Meanwhile, Volt Switch has a 94% of 2HKOing, and Scald is a 4HKO without burns included.

Other stuff it handles
Lanturn also counters Banded/Sharp Beak Talonflame (max of 39% from any move, so 90% chance avoid the 3HKO), although you can't 1v1 Stallbreaker Talonflame unless you are able to Toxic it on the switch (you can however, eat a +6 BB from the standard Bulk Up set and live even after rocks 100% of the time). Against the Lati twins, you even have a 70% chance to come in on a Latios LO Psyshock, Toxic/TWave it, and pivot out (100% of the time against LO Latias), but that's really all you can do. You also beat all defensive Heatran, and all non-Earth Power/Solar Beam Offensive Variants. You can still live standard Offensive Heatran's Earth Power twice if needed and 3HKO back with Scald. Jirachi and you can't do much to each other but at least you can burn it.

Lanturn's ability to heal up off of Electric moves means you can steal an opponent's momentum and gain your own, since you can either Volt Switch out (gaining momentum), Scald (and possibly burn what comes in), Toxic (hurting walls that beat you like Hippowdon), or Heal Bell (self-explanatory).

Granted, you're very slow and weak to Ground and Grass, the former of which is a serious problem. No reliable recovery other than Leftovers and a mediocre at best offensive presence means that Lanturn will never be super good, but it's still got a very viable niche IMO.

 

[Martin]

Speaking of Electric types, I'd like to nominate Lanturn to D. Honestly, I'm not quite sure why it got moved down so harshly, but if Magnezone (and other electrics in general) is rising (in usage/viability) and Tornadus-T is one of the best/most used A+ mons (even if it doesn't make it to S), Lanturn's niche becomes more prominent.

The niche being a pokemon that stops the Volt part of VoltTurn teams and is a cleric at the same time, while countering nearly all relevant electric OU mons.

Countering Electrics
For example, the most damaging move your standard Specs Magnezone has (HP Fire) does a pittance to Lanturn (taking the standard RU pivot set here).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 48-57 (11.5 - 13.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Scarf HP Fire does just over 8%. It's barely even chip damage at that point after Lefties.

How about Mega Manectric? Overheat tops out at 18.4%. Now, AV Raikou?

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 72-85 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

In return, you 5HKO with Scald (assuming no burns). Even Specs Raikou 5HKO's without SR up and a burn will likely let you win 1v1.

Thundurus is also one of the most dangerous mons out there, but Lanturn laughs at it too. The mixed set maxes out at 45% with Superpower (Knock off does mid 30's which is annoying), but Scald is a likely 3HKO back (or you can Toxic and pivot out). Standard LO Thundurus needs to hit 3 Focus Blasts in a row to beat you, which is pretty damn unlikely, and you can simply pivot out or fire off Scalds/Toxic.

Countering Tornadus
Lanturn also has a handy ability to counter Life Orb Tornadus T.

Hurricane tops out at 25.6% making it a 5HKO at best, while Superpower does a max of 40.5% for the first hit. Meanwhile, Volt Switch has a 94% of 2HKOing, and Scald is a 4HKO without burns included.

Other stuff it handles
Lanturn also counters Banded/Sharp Beak Talonflame (max of 39% from any move, so 90% chance avoid the 3HKO), although you can't 1v1 Stallbreaker Talonflame unless you are able to Toxic it on the switch (you can however, eat a +6 BB from the standard Bulk Up set and live even after rocks 100% of the time). Against the Lati twins, you even have a 70% chance to come in on a Latios LO Psyshock, Toxic/TWave it, and pivot out (100% of the time against LO Latias), but that's really all you can do. You also beat all defensive Heatran, and all non-Earth Power/Solar Beam Offensive Variants. You can still live standard Offensive Heatran's Earth Power twice if needed and 3HKO back with Scald. Jirachi and you can't do much to each other but at least you can burn it.

Lanturn's ability to heal up off of Electric moves means you can steal an opponent's momentum and gain your own, since you can either Volt Switch out (gaining momentum), Scald (and possibly burn what comes in), Toxic (hurting walls that beat you like Hippowdon), or Heal Bell (self-explanatory).

Granted, you're very slow and weak to Ground and Grass, the former of which is a serious problem. No reliable recovery other than Leftovers and a mediocre at best offensive presence means that Lanturn will never be super good, but it's still got a very viable niche IMO.

The main issue with using Lanturn in the role of an Electric-type/Volt Switch "counter" is that it can come in and then... well, it can't really do much else. I'm gonna compare it to Stunfisk as the two fulful literally the same roles (i.e. electric/Volt Switch stop, bird stop). The key difference between Lanturn and Stunfisk is that Stunfisk can deal with literally all the same stuff, but only the latter can actually deal with Electric-types in a timely fashion. I mean, in the scenarios that you have listed for Electric-types, Stunfisk deals with all of them barring Thundurus significantly faster than it does... is what I'd be saying if Lanturn dealt with Thundurus faster.

• 0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 84-99 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
• 0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 87-103 (29 - 34.4%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO

This only leaves Rotom-W that it can deal with which Stunfisk can't, and Rotom-W is literally the 'mon that you prepare for without even reallising you've prepared for it. Seriously, this thing is just plain outclassed when it comes to dealing with Electric-types.

Admittedly they may both run SpA investment (I know for a fact that Stunfisk does), but this demonstrates that Lanturn needs more investment in its offenses to meet the same benchmarks as Stunfisk would.

Both Lanturn and Stunfisk deal with the same stuff defensively (birds, electric-types, steel-types etc.), and Stunfisk even has higher stats in all defenses barring HP - which I calculated to find that it gives greater overall bulk (Stunfisk has 109/84/99 bulk as opposed to Lanturn's 125/58/76 bulk), making it outclass it defensively.

All of this equates to Lanturn being more niche and generally less effective than an already E rank Pokémon, so why it should be in D is kinda baffling to me.

 

[Exeggutive]

Weavile should go to A+ rank already... It has an excellent speed tier with great STABs that hit a lot of mons hard. Ya it's frail and weak to rocks. It's not like sr weakness makes Weavile more vunerable to being revenge killed. It does to the same things no matter how high it's health. Weavile is more of a good offense is a good defense since it can usually get a kill before needing to take damage.
I'm on my phone so not gonna write a lot about the things everyone knows about.

Weavile has a pretty big influence in this meta. Like every other post mentions Weavile becoming more popular so why is it not A+? You guys use Weaviles surge in popularity to justify a lot of your rank changes so it obviously has a big influence. And ik spike in usage doesn't mean rise viability but Weavile is still worthy of A+.

 

[SketchUp]

gamer boy
You are missing out on a few things Lanturn has over both Stunfisk and Rotom-W. Maybe the biggest difference between Lanturn and Stunfisk is that Lanturn is able to learn Volt Switch, so the following statement is not really true:

well, it can't really do much else.

I mean, in the scenarios that you have listed for Electric-types, Stunfisk deals with all of them barring Thundurus significantly faster

How does Stunfisk does better against Mega Manectric than Lanturn does? Every electric type in OU runs Ice coverage to hit the bulky grounds and Lanturn resist this combination while Stunfisk is weak to the Ice coverage. Stunfisk can't switch in against Thundurus because LO HP Ice is a 3hko (Lanturn also gets 3hko'd by Focus Blast, but it has 66% chance of dodging one of them) Mega Manectric can pressure Stunfisk much easier with HP Ice and Overheat, while Lanturn is only 15hko'd by Flamethrower. So I don't really know why a pokemon with Volt Switch, Heal Bell, a better speed tier and boltbeam resistance is outclassed by Stunfisk.

Btw not seconding Lanturn to D. The reason why it was ranked in XY (C- iirc) was because it was a great pokemon against the common Voltturn teams consisting of Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Mega Manectric etc. Not only are these kind of teams less common, but there are also more options available to deal with electric types.

 

[Martin]

Before I start this post, the Stunfisk spread I am using in the calcs is 228 HP / 100 Def / 136 SpA / 44 SpD modest

gamer boy
You are missing out on a few things Lanturn has over both Stunfisk and Rotom-W. Maybe the biggest difference between Lanturn and Stunfisk is that Lanturn is able to learn Volt Switch, so the following statement is not really true:

When I said "more niche and generally less effective", the "niche" and "generally" are referring to its ability to check Water-types and use Volt Switch. I meant to make a note of those when I was typing, but I forgot because I was being rushed to get off of the computer. Sorry for not making that clearer. However, I didn't compare Lanturn to Rotom-W. I just mentioned it as something that Lanturn does over Stunfisk. You can't really compare Lanturn and Rotom-W due to their only similarities being their typing and the fact they can be used on VoltTurn.

How does Stunfisk does better against Mega Manectric than Lanturn does? Every electric type in OU runs Ice coverage to hit the bulky grounds and Lanturn resist this combination while Stunfisk is weak to the Ice coverage. Stunfisk can't switch in against Thundurus because LO HP Ice is a 3hko (Lanturn also gets 3hko'd by Focus Blast, but it has 66% chance of dodging one of them) Mega Manectric can pressure Stunfisk much easier with HP Ice and Overheat, while Lanturn is only 15hko'd by Flamethrower. So I don't really know why a pokemon with Volt Switch, Heal Bell, a better speed tier and boltbeam resistance is outclassed by Stunfisk.

Firstly, 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 228 HP / 44 SpD Stunfisk: 130-154 (31.2 - 37%) -- 76.6% chance to 3HKO (less than Overheat fyi due to 60*2<130) while Stunfisk OHKOs with Earth Power after rocks (136+ SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) so it deals with Manectric incredibly well. The only variant of Raikou which can really deal with Stunfisk effectively is Specs (and considering that most are AV and the fact that Raikou isn't that common despite how good it is (I classify anything that gets >10% on the 1695 stats (i.e. the one used for tiering) "common", and Raikou receives 8.4% to the nearest decimal) - there was a 2.77067755% chance of seeing a specs Raikou in June - making it less of an issue (although you shouldn't rule it out for obvious reasons). I understand the argument with Focus Blast (although I seem to never miss it for whatever reason... I guess I'm just a lucky son-of-a-bitch) though. They are both super niche, so its kinda whatever. Just really arguing my corner as I was comparing them for their roles and, as much as I like Lanturn, I don't think that it is worth using over Stunfisk most of the time due to the latter's utility with Yawn and Stealth Rock combined with its ability to immediately threaten a lot of what it checks. However, I did forget that Lanturn works on bulky VoltTurn while Stunfisk does on HO, so I guess that comparing them like I did may not be completely right. I guess its my bad.

Btw not seconding Lanturn to D. The reason why it was ranked in XY (C- iirc) was because it was a great pokemon against the common Voltturn teams consisting of Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Mega Manectric etc. Not only are these kind of teams less common, but there are also more options available to deal with electric types.

I'm glad that you cleared this up at the end of the post :] I'm happy we're on the same page :]

 

[Freeroamer]

Just a point I want to make, you completely disregarded SubCM or CM Raikou in general, which beats Stunfisk pretty comfortably assuming it CMs as you come in and proceeds to overwhelm it. It also just trashes Lanturn. Before you say it's not a very common set, it's been used a few times this Wcop and shouldn't be ignored, it's a very cool and threatening set.

 

[AM]

It'd be nice if you guys would stop nitpicking all these tiny little things that should be sent through PMs. Thanks.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Weavile should go to A+ rank already... It has an excellent speed tier with great STABs that hit a lot of mons hard. Ya it's frail and weak to rocks. It's not like sr weakness makes Weavile more vunerable to being revenge killed. It does to the same things no matter how high it's health. Weavile is more of a good offense is a good defense since it can usually get a kill before needing to take damage.
I'm on my phone so not gonna write a lot about the things everyone knows about.

Weavile has a pretty big influence in this meta. Like every other post mentions Weavile becoming more popular so why is it not A+? You guys use Weaviles surge in popularity to justify a lot of your rank changes so it obviously has a big influence. And ik spike in usage doesn't mean rise viability but Weavile is still worthy of A+.

The SR weakness does make weavile more vulnerable to being revenge killed... its already a glass cannon as it is which is also taking LO recoil every time it fires off an attack. Worse yet it has a SR weakness while also being prone to spikes as well. This already hurts its longetivity as it has limited opportunities to get in the first place, and now its speed is very useful but opposing priority is also a thing. You say weavile will usually get a kill before being revenge killed but in practice it sometimes fails to beat things it should beat 1v1 because of the low base power of icicle crash:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 242-283 (57.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 169-201 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

4 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage


In both cases weavile dies after rocks, LO recoil, and even with the bonus of sandstorm damage because of that glass cannon. Hippo is a physical wall yes but its awkward that the godly Weavile cant dispatch it without a lucky flinch.

Weavile was moved to A ( it was B+ before)with popularity kept in mind because people discovered that it is more effective in the meta than originallly thought, but its not without serious flaws, and mega scizor, keldeo, and azumarill are A+ things that put a stop to it while also not having those longetitivy issues. Weavile is honestly slightly overrated. It thrives on reliance on bulky grounds and psychics like Lati/Starmie in team building, while having low kick which hits most fat steels hard. But it thrives where the rocks setter is a bulky chomp or ttar , latios or starmie is the rocks remover, then they have a ferrothorn heatran core in the back and the heatran isn't scarf to at least prevent the team from virtually being 6-0, or at least put a Skarmory or change some mons around for something like a keldeo or azumarill. Dont get me wrong weavile is a big annoyance in team building atm i have to admit, but in practice its easy to counterplay and in team building there simple enough tweaks( like making your tran / jirachi scarf if you cant add a check) u can make to deal with it. Weavile should stay A.

 

[YJiang]

Quick statistical test (1 prop z test) shows that if the real probability of hitting a hurricane is .7, then the probability of hitting 22 or fewer out of 46 is only .000516 (which is .0516%). Normally you'd use that to conclude that the real probability of hitting isn't .7, but in this case since we know for sure it is, you either counted wrong (why did you click hurricane 46 times in 15 battles? 3 per battle, every battle seems like a lot to me) or it's a big fluke. If your numbers are real, you got haxed really hard, and we're not supposed to use hax to rank mons.

I'm not sure why you're using a z-test when you can calculate the probability directly. The chance of landing 22 or fewer Hurricanes out of 46, given that the true probability of landing one is 0.7, is approximately 0.00136, or 0.136%. You're off by a bit more than a factor of two.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum((46 choose i) * (0.7)^i * (0.3)^(46-i), i from 0 to 22)

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Anyways, yeah, I think A is perfect for weavile. It's very difficult to stop if you aren't specifically prepared for it, but as stated, it's just sooo frail. It's got gear stabs that are really hard to wall, but it's too easily worn down and picked off for A+, imo. Im not going to take to much time w/ this- honestly I just wanted to write something so that my post wouldn't get deleted for being a trash post. :]

 

[Lucario1313]

I'm not sure why you're using a z-test when you can calculate the probability directly. The chance of landing 22 or fewer Hurricanes out of 46, given that the true probability of landing one is 0.7, is approximately 0.00136, or 0.136%. You're off by a bit more than a factor of two.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum((46 choose i) * (0.7)^i * (0.3)^(46-i), i from 0 to 22)

Not sure what happened, but I did the same test on my computer instead of my calculator and got the number you posted so my b. You can do a z test or calculate it directly, doesn't really matter. Even with the new number, you could still normally conclude at the 1% level that the true chance of hitting isn't .7. So it still qualifies as hax.
Looking into it further,
Standard deviation of the number hit should be n sqrt((p)*(1-p)/n) = 3.108 (confirm here that the standard deviation is 3.108 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p value for 22 successes out of 46 with a probability of success of .7)
z score for hitting 22 out of 46 is therefore (22 - 46(.7)) / 3.108 = 3.282
Probability of z score being less than -3.282 is indeed .000515 (source http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=normalcdf (-13000, -3.282, 0, 1))
So I'm not sure what the difference is, but .0005 is really close to the probability of hitting 21 or fewer (source: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum((46 choose i) * (0.7)^i * (0.3)^(46-i), i from 0 to 21)) so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[AM]

In other news Torn-T isn't going to S, thanks for the math guys. We really enjoyed it.

 

[Finchinator]

Weavile should stay in A, in my opinion. It's obviously gained popularity and became a prominent threat to offensive and even balanced teams recently, but I think that putting it in A+ would be a bit of a stretch.

First and foremost, Weavile certainly has a threatening presence offensively with the Ice+Dark dual STAB, solid moves like Knock off and Icicle Crash, and even other niches like priority (Ice Shard), the ability to threaten fairies or opposing darks (PJab or Low Kick respectively), and/or the ability to trap opposing psychic or ghost types (Pursuit). Despite it having a lot at its disposal, Weavile is, more or less, a glass cannon (70/65/85 bulk and mediocre defensive typing), so it won't be taking hits in most cases and LO + SR add up quickly, too. In most games, you'll get Weavile in 1-2 times safely (although it usually requires foddering something beforehand or making a solid double switch) and then it'll either get a kill, cripple something, or simply provoke one of the handful of counters it has to come in. Speaking of counters, it has a reasonable amount of them - Mega Scizor, Keldeo, Skarmory, Klefki, etc. (things like Clefabld and Azumarill often suffice, too, but should be wary of PJab) - and this isn't even counting some of the more borderline checks to it that are also present in the tier.

The main catch of Weavile is the fact that a lot of offensive teams lack these aforementioned switch-ins to it and it can take advantage of a strong, quick dual STAB combination that includes Knock Off. It is undoubtedly able to fulfill the above role, but that role doesn't parallel in effectiveness and usefulness to the role of other A+ Pokemon. Look at physical attackers in A+ - you see Mega Lop, LandoT, and Azumarill (just a few examples I picked out). All of these have consistent effectiveness and fit onto a lot of teams (especially LandoT, you see this thing all over the place); they also have other redeeming qualities (LandoT and Azumarill both have multiple variants worth noting while Lop is a top 5 mega that is one of the best forces against balanced teams) which make them all better than Weavile in the current metagame. So Weavile should stay A imo.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I feel like Garchomp just keeps gaining in viability, Weavile platforming at A means that for now its not gonna raise (assuming) and its gonna be consistent. Mega Charizard rising also helps for Garchomp as the scarf set gains viability while the tank set prevents Charizard from spamming Flare bliztses. I feel like it's just slowly gaining more and more viability and the metagame shifts in its favour, making S rank more and more favourable.


On a further note, this thing has zero counters. Between mixed mega chomp, scarf chomp, tank chomp, lum lead, swords dance it has zero switch ins. Such a large portion of the metagame dislike the scarf set, its prescence discourages contact moves and nothing likes mega chomp. The argument against chomp was its just a glue pokemon amd I do disagree with that as it can fullt functions on its own and offers huge utility to a team, especially as one of the few offensive rockers that can beat mega sableye.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I feel like Garchomp just keeps gaining in viability, Weavile platforming at A means that for now its not gonna raise (assuming) and its gonna be consistent. Mega Charizard rising also helps for Garchomp as the scarf set gains viability while the tank set prevents Charizard from spamming Flare bliztses. I feel like it's just slowly gaining more and more viability and the metagame shifts in its favour, making S rank more and more favourable.


On a further note, this thing has zero counters. Between mixed mega chomp, scarf chomp, tank chomp, lum lead, swords dance it has zero switch ins. Such a large portion of the metagame dislike the scarf set, its prescence discourages contact moves and nothing likes mega chomp. The argument against chomp was its just a glue pokemon amd I do disagree with that as it can fullt functions on its own and offers huge utility to a team, especially as one of the few offensive rockers that can beat mega sableye.

This keeps getting brought up over and over. It needs to stop until the meta undergoes a shift. Garchomp is not S rank material right now and probably won't be. The only reason he is A+ at all right now is his TankChomp set; Scarfchomp is hardly even relevant anymore, though it may show more prominence than it did before. Still not close to S rank, however.

 

[bludz]

I feel like Garchomp just keeps gaining in viability, Weavile platforming at A means that for now its not gonna raise (assuming) and its gonna be consistent. Mega Charizard rising also helps for Garchomp as the scarf set gains viability while the tank set prevents Charizard from spamming Flare bliztses. I feel like it's just slowly gaining more and more viability and the metagame shifts in its favour, making S rank more and more favourable.

On a further note, this thing has zero counters. Between mixed mega chomp, scarf chomp, tank chomp, lum lead, swords dance it has zero switch ins. Such a large portion of the metagame dislike the scarf set, its prescence discourages contact moves and nothing likes mega chomp. The argument against chomp was its just a glue pokemon amd I do disagree with that as it can fullt functions on its own and offers huge utility to a team, especially as one of the few offensive rockers that can beat mega sableye.

Do you think making this nomination every 2 weeks is going to change anything? lol

Seriously though I'm not seeing a solid point for it to rise in here. Weavile "peaking" at A rank isn't helpful for Chomp whatsoever. Charizard rose in large part BECAUSE Chomp rose since it can dispatch it more easily than defensive Lando-T. Scarf sets are decent but they aren't the only offensive check to Zard X.

On the surface you can make the argument that it has zero switch-ins, but the problem is that this isn't an S rank trait. Kyurem-Black has 0 switch-ins and in reality Latios also has no reliable switch ins considering HP [Fire], Earthquake, Shadow Ball, and Specs sets which 2HKO Clefable among all the other options it has. Now when you actually consider that the defensive set is the most common then we're talking about a plethora of reliable switch-ins, including Clefable (one of the most dominant pokemon in the metagame right now). This thing isn't a wallbreaker in the same sense as Landorus where you're risking life and limb just to scout it out; you can figure out if it's scarf or lum SD or rocky helmet and handle it accordingly. Also Garchomp's viability should not be influenced by Mega Garchomp since they are listed separately.

 

[AM]

Garchomps not moving to S either. Get over it.