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Yes, I understand that all. A good pokemon is one that takes a fair amount of pressure and responsibility off the player, with ones that may do this too much so being banned. But saying that Hoopa U is not effective against offense is just not true. You HAVE to predict and get it in on those Raikous, Manectrics, Latis at full, to set up a scenario where Hoopa either wins outright or wins the trade (Killing a Latios for being down to 2% after life orb if it came in healthy, etc).
The bulk doesnt let it switch in on special attackers, but with a bit of prediction, it lets Hoopa win. I agree people are in left field on both sides of the argument, but people are also ignoring quite a few of the capabilities Hoopa holds. 60 defense is crap, I agree, but the things massive SpDef lets it win trades, which is something people just ignore, even with other mons like Manaphy which can against offense take another mon with it due to its bulk.
Winning 1v1s against huge threats like the electrics, Latis, etc is such a massively important trait that compensates for its speed. Sure, taking damage sucks, but it still takes a soul from your opponents team.
So lets say you get your Hoopa-U in safely on one of the special attackers that it beats on a 1v1. They outspeed, and do a shit tonne of damage, and then Hoopa knocks them out.
Even in this situation, Hoopa pretty much can't come back in for the rest of the match and expect to do anything; it'll just get outsped and killed by something else. While yes, it's technically winning the 1v1, in reality it ends up being more of a draw, a 1 for 1. Obviously this isn't 'bad', and trading 1 for 1 with a pokemon in a supposedly bad match up isn't shit, but you also can't use it to argue that it pulls weight against HO, because by that logic Final Gambit Accelgor would be decent as a way to remove something from HO teams.
Obviously Accelgor is terrible, and Hoopa is mostly used for the stall match up, but the point still stands: in most practical situations against HO Hoopa trades at best.
So lets say you get your Hoopa-U in safely on one of the special attackers that it beats on a 1v1. They outspeed, and do a shit tonne of damage, and then Hoopa knocks them out.
Even in this situation, Hoopa pretty much can't come back in for the rest of the match and expect to do anything; it'll just get outsped and killed by something else. While yes, it's technically winning the 1v1, in reality it ends up being more of a draw, a 1 for 1. Obviously this isn't 'bad', and trading 1 for 1 with a pokemon in a supposedly bad match up isn't shit, but you also can't use it to argue that it pulls weight against HO, because by that logic Final Gambit Accelgor would be decent as a way to remove something from HO teams.
Obviously Accelgor is terrible, and Hoopa is mostly used for the stall match up, but the point still stands: in most practical situations against HO Hoopa trades at best.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 149-177 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 156-184 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are all some of the stronger special attacks you'll see on offense (I left out things like Torn T which uturn out or Venu which is outsped usually). Now, I'm not saying that Hoopa can excel against offense, no not really. However, what I'm saying is that Hoopa can quite comfortably emergency check many offensive staples on the special side. Yea sure, at that point Hoopa is quite weak and cant take anything faster than it on, but so what? Hoopa goes through with a trade that greatly favors it, removing a massive threat to its own team while the offensive team isnt too threatened by Hoopa. This is a great quality. While it would be better if Hoopa remained healthy and a threat to offense, this trait is certainly not bad.
Trades can be quite good (or if you want a different word... sufficient) and in the case of Hoopa Unbound this is definitely true. Mathematically this is a one for one, yea, but Hoopa comes out on the far greater side.
Its good.... It makes it not deadweight, i dont see how thats anything but good?
So lets say you get your Hoopa-U in safely on one of the special attackers that it beats on a 1v1. They outspeed, and do a shit tonne of damage, and then Hoopa knocks them out.
Even in this situation, Hoopa pretty much can't come back in for the rest of the match and expect to do anything; it'll just get outsped and killed by something else. While yes, it's technically winning the 1v1, in reality it ends up being more of a draw, a 1 for 1. Obviously this isn't 'bad', and trading 1 for 1 with a pokemon in a supposedly bad match up isn't shit, but you also can't use it to argue that it pulls weight against HO, because by that logic Final Gambit Accelgor would be decent as a way to remove something from HO teams.
Obviously Accelgor is terrible, and Hoopa is mostly used for the stall match up, but the point still stands: in most practical situations against HO Hoopa trades at best.
Yes and what is the problem there? It is not as if Hoopa-U was aimed at necessarily sweeping HO teams but rather dealing with match-up issues against stall and balance, which significantly reduces burden on your end to account for two other fairly common play styles (people do play them). A 1 v 1 trade off never stopped Mega Gardevoir from being useful at the very least against HO teams and she sits atop A rank. Whereas Hoopa-U is more or less the same thing + more sets, thanks to item choice and being a non-mega, to actually be more unpredictable.
You're not even accounting for other sets like Scarf, which does and can outspeed certain HO mons, or sub as some people are using. Or even potential support in speed control by the team. Regardless, it isn't dead weight was the contention being brought up, in which case it hardly is and can find use even against HO aside from death fodder.
One thing that I think can't be undersold about Hoopa when looking at it in 1 v 1 types of scenarios is that, against Special Attackers, Hoopa will almost always win regardless of the entry circumstances.
Think of Gengar, for example. Gengar is terrifying to switch into, but once something gets in, his frailty makes him vulnerable to priority, being forced out, or just plain outsped by some of the faster mons picking up such as Torn-T or Weavile (again, if they get in). Hoopa can 1 v 1 a lot of Special Wallbreakers even if they get a free switch into him, because his absurd power and coverage threatens a(n near) OHKO on most non-bulky mons after rocks, while his natural special bulk leaves him a comfortable margin to survive what they hit with first. Against more offensive teams, Hoopa can discourage Special Wallbreakers from coming in often, even on sacs (U-Turns are obviously a different beast); this aspect stands out to me in particular since some of the most devastating wallbreakers require you to tread around giving them free switch ins, lest they get the one entrance they need to eat your team. A mon that can create circumstances where it is unfavorable to give a wallbreaker a free entrance seems like a pro that would come in handy for some teams.
That said, Hoopa's Special resilience is a perk, but not the cornerstone of his usage. There are OU wallbreakers about as frail on one side as he is (maybe marginally bulkier) in the upper ranks.
A+
- Gengar
- Latios
A
- Zard-Y
- Gardevoir
A-
- Pinsir
- Serperior
All these other Pokemon have things to offset this from Hoopa, such as better speed tiers or some resistances. That said, bar maybe Gardevoir and Gengar, Hoopa has most of these mons beat in either raw (initial) power or Movepool; it gets both great coverage and very high BP and spammable moves on each spectrum (Serperior suffers from the former, Latios suffers somewhat from the latter).
The speed is the most obvious Achilles' heel, and I'll admit that could probably be what drags it down in ranking. That said, I think it better to focus on how the speed inhibits it more so than the Physical bulk, because while indeed abysmal, most Wallbreakers vs Offense are probably not going to take much punishment without a Sub to hide behind anyway. And with the general Speed Creep, the number of offensive mons between his tier and Base 100 isn't as relevant as it used to be (though it still obviously is to an extent).
My thing with Hoopa-U as a wallbreaker is that while he needs a free switch and is lackluster vs Offense, many other wallbreakers need the same help, and the spammability of Hyperspace Fury and Hoopa's powerful coverage makes it much harder to "waste" the switch once he gets it, compared to, say, Gardevoir needing Jirachi gone or Serperior really needing Heatran eliminated before they can make the most of a free entry.
Sorry to interrupt the discussion on Hoopa, but I have a quick little nomination that I think most of you will agree with.
Scolipede B+ -> B or lower
Now that the Baton Pass Clause has been updated, Scolipede can't pass Swords Dance or Iron Defense anymore, which was its main niche. Now its main niche has been nerfed quite a bit (it's a shame that it happened when it did; passing speed and SD to physical Hoopa-U would be so much fun). It's still the only viable Speed Boost passer in OU, so I personally think it should go down to about B-, but I haven't actually used it since the BP cause was changed, so it might work better or worse than it seems like it would on paper.
One thing that I think can't be undersold about Hoopa when looking at it in 1 v 1 types of scenarios is that, against Special Attackers, Hoopa will almost always win regardless of the entry circumstances.
Think of Gengar, for example. Gengar is terrifying to switch into, but once something gets in, his frailty makes him vulnerable to priority, being forced out, or just plain outsped by some of the faster mons picking up such as Torn-T or Weavile (again, if they get in). Hoopa can 1 v 1 a lot of Special Wallbreakers even if they get a free switch into him, because his absurd power and coverage threatens a(n near) OHKO on most non-bulky mons after rocks, while his natural special bulk leaves him a comfortable margin to survive what they hit with first. Against more offensive teams, Hoopa can discourage Special Wallbreakers from coming in often, even on sacs (U-Turns are obviously a different beast); this aspect stands out to me in particular since some of the most devastating wallbreakers require you to tread around giving them free switch ins, lest they get the one entrance they need to eat your team. A mon that can create circumstances where it is unfavorable to give a wallbreaker a free entrance seems like a pro that would come in handy for some teams.
That said, Hoopa's Special resilience is a perk, but not the cornerstone of his usage. There are OU wallbreakers about as frail on one side as he is (maybe marginally bulkier) in the upper ranks.
A+
- Gengar
- Latios
A
- Zard-Y
- Gardevoir
A-
- Pinsir
- Serperior
All these other Pokemon have things to offset this from Hoopa, such as better speed tiers or some resistances. That said, bar maybe Gardevoir and Gengar, Hoopa has most of these mons beat in either raw (initial) power or Movepool; it gets both great coverage and very high BP and spammable moves on each spectrum (Serperior suffers from the former, Latios suffers somewhat from the latter).
The speed is the most obvious Achilles' heel, and I'll admit that could probably be what drags it down in ranking. That said, I think it better to focus on how the speed inhibits it more so than the Physical bulk, because while indeed abysmal, most Wallbreakers vs Offense are probably not going to take much punishment without a Sub to hide behind anyway. And with the general Speed Creep, the number of offensive mons between his tier and Base 100 isn't as relevant as it used to be (though it still obviously is to an extent).
My thing with Hoopa-U as a wallbreaker is that while he needs a free switch and is lackluster vs Offense, many other wallbreakers need the same help, and the spammability of Hyperspace Fury and Hoopa's powerful coverage makes it much harder to "waste" the switch once he gets it, compared to, say, Gardevoir needing Jirachi gone or Serperior really needing Heatran eliminated before they can make the most of a free entry.
I like hoopa as much as the next guy, but the obvious difference between those mons and hoopa is that they are fast, so they don't need to take a hit to begin with. Luckily hoopa is strong enough to bear a scarf and still break things, but it doesn't have the same universal utility against balanced and offensive teams (though, again, it functions much better than is typical as a scarf user)
One thing that I think can't be undersold about Hoopa when looking at it in 1 v 1 types of scenarios is that, against Special Attackers, Hoopa will almost always win regardless of the entry circumstances.
Think of Gengar, for example. Gengar is terrifying to switch into, but once something gets in, his frailty makes him vulnerable to priority, being forced out, or just plain outsped by some of the faster mons picking up such as Torn-T or Weavile (again, if they get in). Hoopa can 1 v 1 a lot of Special Wallbreakers even if they get a free switch into him, because his absurd power and coverage threatens a(n near) OHKO on most non-bulky mons after rocks, while his natural special bulk leaves him a comfortable margin to survive what they hit with first. Against more offensive teams, Hoopa can discourage Special Wallbreakers from coming in often, even on sacs (U-Turns are obviously a different beast); this aspect stands out to me in particular since some of the most devastating wallbreakers require you to tread around giving them free switch ins, lest they get the one entrance they need to eat your team. A mon that can create circumstances where it is unfavorable to give a wallbreaker a free entrance seems like a pro that would come in handy for some teams.
That said, Hoopa's Special resilience is a perk, but not the cornerstone of his usage. There are OU wallbreakers about as frail on one side as he is (maybe marginally bulkier) in the upper ranks.
A+
- Gengar
- Latios
A
- Zard-Y
- Gardevoir
A-
- Pinsir
- Serperior
All these other Pokemon have things to offset this from Hoopa, such as better speed tiers or some resistances. That said, bar maybe Gardevoir and Gengar, Hoopa has most of these mons beat in either raw (initial) power or Movepool; it gets both great coverage and very high BP and spammable moves on each spectrum (Serperior suffers from the former, Latios suffers somewhat from the latter).
The speed is the most obvious Achilles' heel, and I'll admit that could probably be what drags it down in ranking. That said, I think it better to focus on how the speed inhibits it more so than the Physical bulk, because while indeed abysmal, most Wallbreakers vs Offense are probably not going to take much punishment without a Sub to hide behind anyway. And with the general Speed Creep, the number of offensive mons between his tier and Base 100 isn't as relevant as it used to be (though it still obviously is to an extent).
My thing with Hoopa-U as a wallbreaker is that while he needs a free switch and is lackluster vs Offense, many other wallbreakers need the same help, and the spammability of Hyperspace Fury and Hoopa's powerful coverage makes it much harder to "waste" the switch once he gets it, compared to, say, Gardevoir needing Jirachi gone or Serperior really needing Heatran eliminated before they can make the most of a free entry.
Yes, pretty much nothing can get in on Hoopa, no one is debating that. What you're not thinking about is how difficult it is for Hoopa to get in - you're just glossing over the fact that it needs free switches. Basically that consigns it to being a revenge killer (a role its largely outclassed in by pokemon such as Talonflame) or needing a team designed to bring it in with VoltTurn.
Being outclassed or needing a bit of team support to actually do anything are exactly what distinguishes the high tiers from the mid - low tiers.
Edit: I also agree that Scoli should be moved down a bit now that it's main niche is banned.
Sorry to interrupt the discussion on Hoopa, but I have a quick little nomination that I think most of you will agree with. View attachment 46693 Scolipede B+ -> B or lower
Now that the Baton Pass Clause has been updated, Scolipede can't pass Swords Dance or Iron Defense anymore, which was its main niche. Now its main niche has been nerfed quite a bit (it's a shame that it happened when it did; passing speed and SD to physical Hoopa-U would be so much fun). It's still the only viable Speed Boost passer in OU, so I personally think it should go down to about B-, but I haven't actually used it since the BP cause was changed, so it might work better or worse than it seems like it would on paper.
There has already been discussion on where the mons involved with Baton Pass would land after the ban, and it was decided that Scolipede would stay.
It isn't useless either: It has a great lead spikes/Tspikes set which boosts speed allowing it to set up hazards super fast. Speed Boost and access to Swords Dance also gives it the ability to be a great late game cleaner. In addition to this, you can combine the Speed Passing and Hazard Setting roles into one, allowing it to lay down a layer of hazards and quickly pass a +2 Speed Boost to something. Overall it seems viable enough to stay where it is.
Right now I am on mobile, so this post might not be the most organized thing in the world and might be filled with autocorrect fails. But anyway, the problem I have with Hoopa is the fact that it can cripple any playstyle you choose. It definitely has the most trouble with offensive teams, but a scarf set can come in off of you U-Turning, Volt Switching, or Baton Passing, and basically get a kill vs offense. Scarf hits 426 iirc, can't look right now. That out speeds bunny, usually known as a big Hoopa check. And I highly doubt any offense is running something bulky enough to take two hits from Hoopa. Balance is definitely crippled as well by the punching power that Hoopa holds. It has the stats of mega Pokemon but can hold an item, so you give it LO. Balance is going to have an extremely difficult time switching into this without sacking something. First they have to try to scout for mixed or physical or special, but half the time you can't even do that cause Hyperspace Fury breaks protect and is doing a ton of damage to something. And the last thing I have to say about Hoopa is that it almost makes stall unplayable. Stall has a semi rough time switching into a mixed lo set, but what does stall have for the viable and very effective NP/Psyshock/Dark Pulse/Gunk Shot set? The only thing I can think of is an Umbreon, but even then Focus Blast could easily become popular. I guess what I am trying to say is that the metagame is going to have a very rough time adapting to Hoopa if it ever does. I understand that its speed tier kind of cripples it, but when brought in something is going to be hit hard. I apologize for the rant buy I needed to get this off my chest, and I really don't know how long this is. Later today I can probably add calcs to the post.
Dragonite B+ -> A- or A
Choice Banded Dragonite is probably one of the best Physical wallbreakers and revenge killers in OU with a combination of Outrage, Extreme Speed, and Multiscale. Multiscale makes Dragonite extremely reliable for Wallbreaking, as he will almost never be OHKO'ed, so Dragonite will almost always get in 2 hits (assuming the first one doesn't finish the job early). Dragonite is one of the best checks to Talonflame, Hoopa-U, Thundurus-I, etc as Extreme Speed out-prioritizes Gale Wings and Prankster. If you have Stealth Rocks up, then Dragonite can also revenge kill Weavile and both Charizards if they didn't have the opportunity to Roost with Extreme Speed. Outrage, on the other hand 2HKOs some of the bulkiest 'mons in OU such as Gliscor and non-Mega Slowbro. It also KOs non-boosted Bulky Charizard-X, and even has a 46% to OHKO a healthy Charizard-X if Dragonite is unfortunate enough to get burned.
Now for the drop. :c
Kabutops B+ -> B- or lower
Mega Swampert is the better Swift Swimmer, so either it should rise or Kabutops should fall. I lean towards Kabutops falling. Kabutops is slightly faster and stronger after Life Orb and has access to Swords Dance. That's really it. Mega Swampert is bulkier, has better coverage with Ice Punch, and has overall better typing with only one weakness (a 4x weakness shared by Kabutops). Sure, Kabutops can use Swords Dance, but its pretty frail, so using Swords Dance can be pretty risky. Swampert has access to Power-Up Punch, allowing it to hit the many Fighting-weak Pokemon in OU while passively boosting its Attack. Bottom line, Mega Swampert is better, and Kabutops shouldn't be in the same rank.
Kabutops is fine in B+. It's the best physical swift swim user that doesn't take the mega slot, which is pretty important for other mega's like Scizor / Pinsir / Manectric who are also nice on rain.
Kabutops is slightly faster and stronger after Life Orb and has access to Swords Dance. That's really it.
That's not really it. Kabutops beats SD Talonflame, spins for teammates like Thundy and Pinsir, has strong priority and can clean easier because of access to Swords Dance (which also helps breaking one of rains biggest defensive threats Skarmory)
Kabutops beats SD Talonflame, spins for teammates like Thundy and Pinsir, has strong priority and can clean easier because of access to Swords Dance (which also helps breaking one of rains biggest defensive threats Skarmory)
I'll give ya the Talonflame thing. Spinning on an offensive Rain Sweeper is largely a waste of coverage, especially when Starmie pulls off spinning better. And I already mentioned Swords Dance. Plus most Skarmory carry Whirlwind, so that would get rid of Kabutops's boosts.
I'm not saying that Kabutops is bad, or even that it doesn't have some positive qualities over Mega Swampert. I'm just saying that Mega-Swampert has more general viability.
Dragonite B+ -> A- or A
Choice Banded Dragonite is probably one of the best Physical wallbreakers and revenge killers in OU with a combination of Outrage, Extreme Speed, and Multiscale. Multiscale makes Dragonite extremely reliable for Wallbreaking, as he will almost never be OHKO'ed, so Dragonite will almost always get in 2 hits (assuming the first one doesn't finish the job early). Dragonite is one of the best checks to Talonflame, Hoopa-U, Thundurus-I, etc as Extreme Speed out-prioritizes Gale Wings and Prankster. If you have Stealth Rocks up, then Dragonite can also revenge kill Weavile and both Charizards if they didn't have the opportunity to Roost with Extreme Speed. Outrage, on the other hand 2HKOs some of the bulkiest 'mons in OU such as Gliscor and non-Mega Slowbro. It also KOs non-boosted Bulky Charizard-X, and even has a 46% to OHKO a healthy Charizard-X if Dragonite is unfortunate enough to get burned.
Now for the drop. :c
Kabutops B+ -> B- or lower
Mega Swampert is the better Swift Swimmer, so either it should rise or Kabutops should fall. I lean towards Kabutops falling. Kabutops is slightly faster and stronger after Life Orb and has access to Swords Dance. That's really it. Mega Swampert is bulkier, has better coverage with Ice Punch, and has overall better typing with only one weakness (a 4x weakness shared by Kabutops). Sure, Kabutops can use Swords Dance, but its pretty frail, so using Swords Dance can be pretty risky. Swampert has access to Power-Up Punch, allowing it to hit the many Fighting-weak Pokemon in OU while passively boosting its Attack. Bottom line, Mega Swampert is better, and Kabutops shouldn't be in the same rank.
I still don't understand why people treat mega swampert like a replacement to kabutops. Honestly , Mega Swampert has disappointed me more than kabutops and more often than not I've just run kabutops and a mega like scizor(Who makes great use of the rain) and have gotten better results. Mega swampert's niche as a ground type rain sweeper is valid as its a great check to thundy who is very annoying for rain. However, unlike kabutops, swampert fails to break skarmory and more importantly 2hko rotom wash, the latter of which is a large annoyance to rain in general. Mega swampert also fails to get the swift swim speed the turn it mega evolves. Additionally, kabutops is more versatile and i wouldnt say kabutops has worser coverage considering it only needs waterfall and Stone edge, unlike mega swampert whose dual stab is walled by grass types forcing it to run ice punch, a large threat to rain. As a result, kabutops has more free slots for options like low kick, stealth rock, rapid spin, SD, aqua jet... and generally needs less support in sweeping and breaking with a lower opportunity cost. So they are fine in the same rank.
Regarding Dragonite all those pros were taken into consideration with its B+ ranking. The only new change for it is that banded Extreme speed hits hoopa u hard who otherwise can threaten speed ties. I'm not sure if that really changes its viability all that much. IT still faces fierce competition from mega alt and zard x who are overall better dancers, though those are megas.
I'll give ya the Talonflame thing. Spinning on an offensive Rain Sweeper is largely a waste of coverage, especially when Starmie pulls off spinning better. And I already mentioned Swords Dance. Plus most Skarmory carry Whirlwind, so that would get rid of Kabutops's boosts.
I'm not saying that Kabutops is bad, or even that it doesn't have some positive qualities over Mega Swampert. I'm just saying that Mega-Swampert has more general viability.
Rapid Spin isnt a waste of coverage on kabutops considering its fine with Waterfall Stone edge and possibly low kick, as hazards can be annoying for rain unless u can fit a latias. Skarmory can carry whirlwind to phaze it out, but lets not ignore the fact that if skarmory switches into kabutops as it SDs, the skarmory is in trouble if rocks are up:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 292-344 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
And their saying it doesn't take up a Mega Slot and can spin and can do a lot of other cool things that MSwampert can't. Swampert is a one trick pony. All it does is hit hard basically while Kabutops can Spin, boost, and have priority to hit harder than what Swampert can achieve in a turn.
Swampert actually can run multiple sets, not just a rain sweeper set. It can function as a rocker for rain, run subpup, and is a twave switch in as well as being an electric immunity for rain, which is significantly more important for rain than a spinner, boosting sweeper, or a priority user
Aside from the Twave mention Kabutops can basically do the same thing. It can set rocks too and instead of running subpunch it can Swords Dance which only takes a single moveslot mind you.
Honestly I'd say Kabu is somewhat better than Mega Swampert. Not only does it have a better STAB combination it also has better moveslot options meaning it can be slightly unpredictable and make you wary with Switchins to a Low Kick or the threat of giving it a free dance. Not to mention it doesnt take the Mega Slot
kabu isnt bullky enough to be a reliable rock setter as it can often be OHKO'd by the opponent during that turn, and it has a worse typing defensively than megapert, so it is harder for it to switch into battles.
Kabutops and Mega Swampert should share the same rank. Kabutops really just needs to run aqua jet/waterfall and stone edge so it has some room for coverage/rapid spin/swords dance depending on what you want it to run. However Mega Swampert has much less need for priority because it doesn't fear prankster t-wave and has more room for coverage such as ice punch, superpower or even PuP to become a legit horror movie and has much better defensive typing and bulk which makes it almost impossible to ohko without grass move. Plus while not a optimal set it can even run rain dance if you don't wanna run a rain team which makes Mega Pert much more self-sufficient when compared to Kabutops.
Who the hell runs Rocks on their rain sweeper? The entire point of rain HO is that once Politoed sets rain up, you take advantage of your boosted speed and power during the timer. Don't waste your time setting up rocks with your sweeper, hit something. All this talk about unpredictability is moot as well, everyone knows exactly what Swampert and Kabutops are going to do when they come in. If you really want to compare these two, compare them about stuff that they should be doing.
In any case, I don't see Kabutops being better than Swampert. Water / Ground STABs are fantastic because both Earthquake and Waterfall hit so many targets neutrally that it's pretty difficult to switch into either one, especially since most mons that do resist the pair get nailed by Ice Punch. Swampert also does a good job of not compounding common weaknesses as much, as its electric immunity makes it decent at handling Thundurus and Mega Manectric, who generally are huge problems for other rain teams. Another huge threat to rain, Ferrothorn, doesn't do so well since switching in on Earthquake does around 40%, and given how easily Ferrothorn gets worn down it's not that difficult to break it (also if you really hate Ferro, Pert gets Low Kick and Power up Punch). Even though Kabutops is good, I find Pert to be so much stronger simply because of how much it changes otherwise bad matchups for rain. Its just so much better at beating typical checks and counters to rain that Kabutops doesn't help with as much.
Tressed rocks is actually ok on MPert as it has 1 turn while it megas that swift swim isn't in effect, and other than Ferro there isn't any rocks users I can think of off the top of my head that fit well on rain. It's not the best option, stuff like PuP is far better on it, but it can work if you're desparate for a rocker and no other rocker fits.
Anyway, I disagree with Kabutops dropping. It's a really useful mon on rain due to spinning/checking T-Flame and having SD. It's in no way interchangable with MPert, they function quite differently and while both intend to destroy under rain, they have different perks over each other. Others have done a good job summing this up already. I also think D-Nite's fine where it is, nothing's changed for it and it certainly isn't worthy of being in the A ranks to me, it's generally a bit overhyped IMO and other than for E-Speed, I'd rather use another dragon. Multiscale is really overhyped, getting chip on it isn't that hard unless you have magic bounce support and mandatory hazard support.
I also think D-Nite's fine where it is, nothing's changed for it and it certainly isn't worthy of being in the A ranks to me, it's generally a bit overhyped IMO and other than for E-Speed, I'd rather use another dragon. Multiscale is really overhyped, getting chip on it isn't that hard unless you have magic bounce support and mandatory hazard support.
Dragonite really isn't all that comparable to other Dragons. As most of them are sweepers, and Dragonite's a wallbreaker. Dragonite's role is to come in, tank almost any hit, and retaliate with Outrage, usually OHKOing faster 'mons and 2HKOing slower, bulkier mons. And as stated, Banded Extreme Speed isn't something to be taken lightly, as it makes Dragonite one of the premier revenge killers, especially for Talonflame and Thundurus-I.
However, if that's not enough it's also got a great bulky set with Roost that allows it to keep renewing Multiscale. I understand that Dragonite didn't get anything new except that it beats Hoopa-U, but I'm comparing it to Pokemon in the B+ rank. It seems much more on par with Mew, Celebi, and MegaDactyl than with Dragalge and Slowking.
I'm going to make 2 posts in 1 day which is really unusual for me, usually it is 1 post a month lol.
---> S rank
This little cute Pokemon has been nothing short of amazing in the ORAS metagame. It has gone from B+ (iirc) and BL to A+ and OU, and for good reason. Manaphy can sit on the other side of the battle, tilting its head back and fourth, then kill half your team. I will be looking closer into the 4 main reasons I believe the Manaphy should move up to S.
Movepool:
Oh how deep this topic is. Manaphy's movepool is huge, having a wide selection of coverage. First off is water STAB. STAB is always important on a Pokemon, and Manaphy generally has two options to go when it comes to it. Scald and Surf, Scald usually being used for its 100% 30% burn chance, while still having a good base power at 80. Surf can also be used for securing more crucial KO's, none that I can think of off the top of my head, but the extra power is nice. Secondly, we have set up. Not that this is relevant, but it could be interesting to note that all of the S rank Pokemon have some sort of set up and there are sets that use them. Manaphy has access to Tail Glow and Calm Mind. Tail Glow is an amazing set up move, giving the user +3 in special attack every time used which is ridiculous. One of Manaphy's moves coming off a +3 special attack is going to hurt. Calm Mind can also be used on perhaps bulkier Manaphy sets, giving it a better chance to set up. And after a boost or two, an attack is still going to leave a dent. Not as much as a Tail Glow boosted, but you also receive a bit more bulk. In most cases, the first two move slots are staples on Manaphy, but don't have to be. But in this case, I am referring to the last two slots as "fillers". These can consist of Rain Dance, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Hidden Power Fire, Psychic, Rest, Shadow Ball, Skill Swap, and Heart Swap. Since talking about all of these will make this extremely long, I will hide them.
Rain Dance is used on a lot of sets, taking advantage of Manaphy's ability and basically making it immune to status wwhile the rain is up. It also boosts the power of Manaphy's STAB which is a nice bonus. Ice Beam is a common filler, used mostly to stop grass types and dragon types to come in on Manaphy and wall it. These include Celebi, Latis, and MSceptile just to name a few. Energy Ball is also viable for being able to hit Pokemon that would soak up other coverage moves such as Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Seismitoad. Hidden Power Fire is used mainly for Ferrothorn so Manaphy has a lot less trouble beating it. Psychic allows Manaphy to hit Mega Venusaur more comfortably and ensure an OHKO against the offensive set and an OHKO against the defensive set with rocks up. Psychic can also beat Toxicroak that can switch into Surf/Scald. Rest is used on Tail Glow sets, but is still effective. With the rain up and the Hydration ability, Rest allows Manaphy to get back up to full health and being awake the same turn. This can preserve Manaphy for later in the match or keep it healthy for the Pokemon is is currently facing. Shadow Ball is one of the least used moves to my knowledge. Shadow Ball can be used to hit Celebi and other fat Psychic types harder than Scald and other coverage moves, which can be extremely helpful in a pinch. Skill Swap is more of a lure than a filler move, but basically what it does is beats Unaware Clef 1v1 which RG + Surf can do anyway iirc. Finally, Heart Swap is more team oriented I guess, but can be used in some cases. I haven't used it myself so I honestly cannot say what its purpose is.
Bulk
Manaphy has decent defenses believe it or not. 100/100/100 is nothing to laugh at. Along with a pretty good defensive typing in Water, Manaphy will be sponging (hah no pun intended) hits allowing it to set up easier. The well known Tail Glow + Rain Dance set runs a bit of bulk allowing Manaphy eat up more hits than it normally would. This can be crucial in some cases, and not all Pokemon have the option to do this. The Calm Mind set is very usable, and effective. It runs 240 HP/252 Defense making Manaphy as bulky as possible while it sets up Calm Minds. With almost infinite recovery and status healing, Manaphy is the perfect stall breaker. Some other precautions can be ran for situations, but these will most likely be covered in the "items" section. I will leave you with some calcs that can be helpful. (I will only be using the CM set for the sake of me needing food)
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash (Hyperspace Fury) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 121-143 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 231-274 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Team Support?
Team support? Nah. If you think about it, the more you go up on the viability, the less and less team support each Pokemon needs. When you get to S rank, it is usually at the lowest. Manaphy however, needs very little team support if any. It is match up based, but so is all of Pokemon. If your opponent is running Ferrothorn for their Manaphy check and you have HP Fire, Manaphy is 6-0ing the team by itself. You rarely see a Pokemon that can 6-0 teams by itself that are prepared for it. But honestly, TG + RD runs through stall by itself, with the only real answer being Unaware Clef, which still has trouble with Scald burns/Surf always being possible. If you look at the checks compendium, you will see Kyurem-B, Raikou, and Gyarados being listed as GSI (Guaranteed Switch Ins) though not a single one of them are able to switch in to a neutral +3 coverage move. So what I am trying to say in this part of my argument is basically Manaphy requires less team support than other S rank Pokemon in some cases and it can just win depending on match up.
Items/Misc Info:
This is the last part of my long argument, and is basically where I talk about the sets a bit more and put in anything else I forgot to talk about. So not only is Manaphy's movepool large, but so are the options of items it can run. Lefties is probably the most common for all of the sets, giving it passive recovery to prolong its stay on the field, which is something megas do not have access to I might add. Another very viable item is a Wacan Berry. So let me put you in a scenario. You have a TG up, just took out one of your opponent's Pokemon and there last check to Manaphy is an electric type such as Manectric, Raikou, Thundurus, Magnezone, etc. Wacan Berry allows you to take one of there electric STABS and kill it in return, leading to a win. So an item allows Manaphy to take off most Pokemon of one type off of the checks list, if played right. This is a huge difference. There are three more items Manaphy can run effectively to my knowledge. The next one is a Lum Berry. This is ran on non Rain Dance sets, and lets Manaphy bait the opponent in to going for a Twave or Spore or something to cripple Manaphy. You can then fire back a move to kill the mon or if you outspeed set up a TG then kill them. Life Orb is an option, but not very used. It adds power to Manaphy's hits, but severely limits the length of Manaphy in a battle. The final option is a Salac Berry. Salac Berry allows Manaphy to outspeed a lot of its checks after getting low in health. But does make it subject to priority. One thing I would like to add cause I forgot to put it anywhere else. Manaphy has a pretty great speed tier when considering the bulk that it has, it can outspeed a lot of things in the OU tier though not having the "magic" 110 speed.
Well, I hope you liked this long ass post I have put out here. I do not know why Manaphy has not been moved up sooner cause it truly can by itself take down an entire team, even ones prepared for it. Hopefully you guys see how I do, and agree with me. I may have forgotten some key points but after an hour of this, I am done. :]
I actually somewhat agree with Manaphy going up to S-rank. I was going to nominate it for S-rank earlier today, but I ultimately decided against it due to having only 100 base Speed with no way to boost it without Quick-pass. Tail Glow is undoubtedly a great boosting move, but Manaphy suffers from the same thing that Serperior and Talonflame do. It's only got a few counters, but what does counter it, counters it hard. Manaphy is hard countered by Serperior and Mega Venusaur if it lacks Ice Beam. If you don't predict Serperior to come in, Serp can switch in, outspeed Manaphy, OHKO it, and get a free boost. Mega-Venusaur can come in on either Tail Glow or Ice Beam, since unboosted Ice Beam can't even crack 25% on MegaSaur without a crit, and if Venusaur switches into Tail Glow, it can tank a +3 Ice Beam, retaliate with Giga Drain, and 2HKO Manaphy before Manaphy KOs it.
But Manaphy's Achilles's (holy shit, I spelled that correctly without spell check) Heel is it's modest 100 Speed. 100 Speed certainly isn't terrible, but it puts Manaphy right with Charizard-Y, as they both have nuclear bomb level special power, but are stuck without speed boosting moves to finish the sweep.
Theoretically, you could fix Manaphy's speed issue with a Choice Scarf, but then you completely remove what makes Manaphy great, Tail Glow.
Now to the positives. Manaphy under rain becomes an incredible wallbreaker with Rain-boosted Water STAB, Tail Glow, and Hydration Rest. Even without rain, Manaphy can punch holes into any Stall team once Chansey and Unaware Clefable are gone. Manaphy has good matchups with most high-rank Pokemon after one Tail Glow. +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 280-331 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 187-222 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Though Flinch Hax happens)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 392-462 (127.6 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 351-414 (118.1 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 285-336 (78.9 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 99-117 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 59.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
So clearly, Manaphy has plenty of Power, so S-rank isn't out of the question.
TL;DR: Manaphy hits like a nuclear bomb, but it's average, unboostable Speed holds it back from reliable Sweeps like other S-ranks. Close call, but it should Stay in A+.
I would've been all for a Manaphy rise, but right now, I don't think it deserves S solely on the fact that Hoopa-U has 'taken over'. Hoopa being in the tier makes OU a more offensive metagame, which isn't kind to Manaphy at all since it thrives against Balance / Stall, the former being extremely dominant in the tier before Hoopa was released. That being said, Manaphy doesn't just fall against offense, it's still a very threatening Pokemon to the playstyle simply because it boosts so quickly and has a really solid typing and bulk which lets it shrug off the majority of neutral hits and not to mention, a lot of teams rely on Raikou / Manec / Thundurus for beating Manaphy and they all just lose to Wacan Berry lures. I'd also say that Salac Berry Manaphy is very underprepared for and turns fast answers such as Latios / Electrics / Serperior into liabilities. It also faces very strong competition from Hoopa-U just because Hoopa has better coverage which compresses the need for moveslots and has a lot higher immediate power, which means it can effectively run other items such as AV or Scarf, while Manaphy is stuck as a one dimensional hit Tail Glow and watch something die Pokemon.
Overall, Manaphy is still an amazing Pokemon in OU, but is held back by current metagame trends, strong competition from Hoopa-U, and suffers from 4MSS in that it can't handle everything it wants to. If it wants to break Stall / Balance, it needs a specific set and if it wants to shit on Offense it needs a completely different set + coverage moves. Keep it in A+
If Manaphy did not raise to S before Hoopa-U becoming the new toy, I don't see why it would now, great against Stall and Balance, but Offense becoming more prominent cause the new toy makes it less overall effective in the current metagame, and even without it I don't think it is near enough to S, still a pretty solid A+.
Regarding Hoopa-U, after testing is I think it is a good A+ mon, his physical bulk is far from useful but his nice special bulk lets him stand in its ground against special attackers, it lacks resistances but it also only has 2 weaknesses, it is one of the best checks to Latis since they cannot hit it with Psyshock to attack its physical bulk, even then it still feels like a one trick pony against offense, but it still demolishes balance and stall.
I'm going to make 2 posts in 1 day which is really unusual for me, usually it is 1 post a month lol.
---> S rank
This little cute Pokemon has been nothing short of amazing in the ORAS metagame. It has gone from B+ (iirc) and BL to A+ and OU, and for good reason. Manaphy can sit on the other side of the battle, tilting its head back and fourth, then kill half your team. I will be looking closer into the 4 main reasons I believe the Manaphy should move up to S.
Movepool:
Oh how deep this topic is. Manaphy's movepool is huge, having a wide selection of coverage. First off is water STAB. STAB is always important on a Pokemon, and Manaphy generally has two options to go when it comes to it. Scald and Surf, Scald usually being used for its 100% 30% burn chance, while still having a good base power at 80. Surf can also be used for securing more crucial KO's, none that I can think of off the top of my head, but the extra power is nice. Secondly, we have set up. Not that this is relevant, but it could be interesting to note that all of the S rank Pokemon have some sort of set up and there are sets that use them. Manaphy has access to Tail Glow and Calm Mind. Tail Glow is an amazing set up move, giving the user +3 in special attack every time used which is ridiculous. One of Manaphy's moves coming off a +3 special attack is going to hurt. Calm Mind can also be used on perhaps bulkier Manaphy sets, giving it a better chance to set up. And after a boost or two, an attack is still going to leave a dent. Not as much as a Tail Glow boosted, but you also receive a bit more bulk. In most cases, the first two move slots are staples on Manaphy, but don't have to be. But in this case, I am referring to the last two slots as "fillers". These can consist of Rain Dance, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Hidden Power Fire, Psychic, Rest, Shadow Ball, Skill Swap, and Heart Swap. Since talking about all of these will make this extremely long, I will hide them.
Rain Dance is used on a lot of sets, taking advantage of Manaphy's ability and basically making it immune to status wwhile the rain is up. It also boosts the power of Manaphy's STAB which is a nice bonus. Ice Beam is a common filler, used mostly to stop grass types and dragon types to come in on Manaphy and wall it. These include Celebi, Latis, and MSceptile just to name a few. Energy Ball is also viable for being able to hit Pokemon that would soak up other coverage moves such as Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Seismitoad. Hidden Power Fire is used mainly for Ferrothorn so Manaphy has a lot less trouble beating it. Psychic allows Manaphy to hit Mega Venusaur more comfortably and ensure an OHKO against the offensive set and an OHKO against the defensive set with rocks up. Psychic can also beat Toxicroak that can switch into Surf/Scald. Rest is used on Tail Glow sets, but is still effective. With the rain up and the Hydration ability, Rest allows Manaphy to get back up to full health and being awake the same turn. This can preserve Manaphy for later in the match or keep it healthy for the Pokemon is is currently facing. Shadow Ball is one of the least used moves to my knowledge. Shadow Ball can be used to hit Celebi and other fat Psychic types harder than Scald and other coverage moves, which can be extremely helpful in a pinch. Skill Swap is more of a lure than a filler move, but basically what it does is beats Unaware Clef 1v1 which RG + Surf can do anyway iirc. Finally, Heart Swap is more team oriented I guess, but can be used in some cases. I haven't used it myself so I honestly cannot say what its purpose is.
Bulk
Manaphy has decent defenses believe it or not. 100/100/100 is nothing to laugh at. Along with a pretty good defensive typing in Water, Manaphy will be sponging (hah no pun intended) hits allowing it to set up easier. The well known Tail Glow + Rain Dance set runs a bit of bulk allowing Manaphy eat up more hits than it normally would. This can be crucial in some cases, and not all Pokemon have the option to do this. The Calm Mind set is very usable, and effective. It runs 240 HP/252 Defense making Manaphy as bulky as possible while it sets up Calm Minds. With almost infinite recovery and status healing, Manaphy is the perfect stall breaker. Some other precautions can be ran for situations, but these will most likely be covered in the "items" section. I will leave you with some calcs that can be helpful. (I will only be using the CM set for the sake of me needing food)
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash (Hyperspace Fury) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 121-143 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 231-274 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Team Support?
Team support? Nah. If you think about it, the more you go up on the viability, the less and less team support each Pokemon needs. When you get to S rank, it is usually at the lowest. Manaphy however, needs very little team support if any. It is match up based, but so is all of Pokemon. If your opponent is running Ferrothorn for their Manaphy check and you have HP Fire, Manaphy is 6-0ing the team by itself. You rarely see a Pokemon that can 6-0 teams by itself that are prepared for it. But honestly, TG + RD runs through stall by itself, with the only real answer being Unaware Clef, which still has trouble with Scald burns/Surf always being possible. If you look at the checks compendium, you will see Kyurem-B, Raikou, and Gyarados being listed as GSI (Guaranteed Switch Ins) though not a single one of them are able to switch in to a neutral +3 coverage move. So what I am trying to say in this part of my argument is basically Manaphy requires less team support than other S rank Pokemon in some cases and it can just win depending on match up.
Items/Misc Info:
This is the last part of my long argument, and is basically where I talk about the sets a bit more and put in anything else I forgot to talk about. So not only is Manaphy's movepool large, but so are the options of items it can run. Lefties is probably the most common for all of the sets, giving it passive recovery to prolong its stay on the field, which is something megas do not have access to I might add. Another very viable item is a Wacan Berry. So let me put you in a scenario. You have a TG up, just took out one of your opponent's Pokemon and there last check to Manaphy is an electric type such as Manectric, Raikou, Thundurus, Magnezone, etc. Wacan Berry allows you to take one of there electric STABS and kill it in return, leading to a win. So an item allows Manaphy to take off most Pokemon of one type off of the checks list, if played right. This is a huge difference. There are three more items Manaphy can run effectively to my knowledge. The next one is a Lum Berry. This is ran on non Rain Dance sets, and lets Manaphy bait the opponent in to going for a Twave or Spore or something to cripple Manaphy. You can then fire back a move to kill the mon or if you outspeed set up a TG then kill them. Life Orb is an option, but not very used. It adds power to Manaphy's hits, but severely limits the length of Manaphy in a battle. The final option is a Salac Berry. Salac Berry allows Manaphy to outspeed a lot of its checks after getting low in health. But does make it subject to priority. One thing I would like to add cause I forgot to put it anywhere else. Manaphy has a pretty great speed tier when considering the bulk that it has, it can outspeed a lot of things in the OU tier though not having the "magic" 110 speed.
Well, I hope you liked this long ass post I have put out here. I do not know why Manaphy has not been moved up sooner cause it truly can by itself take down an entire team, even ones prepared for it. Hopefully you guys see how I do, and agree with me. I may have forgotten some key points but after an hour of this, I am done. :]
The nomination for Manaphy to S rank has been dismissed several times now after many debates in metas much more friendly to it than this one. Sorry but it isn't going to happen right now and probably not for a long time if ever.
