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I've really enjoyed this meta, and I made an account just to post this. With lucario gone, I see the meta shifting towards bulkier setup sweepers that can be very hard to stop due to their speed, power and frequent use of magic bounce. I found a nice little niche set that can force them out.
Pangoro with banettite gives you priority parting shot. This may sound OK, but when manaphy gets to +3 in one turn, it seems to come up short. The hidden trick of parting shot is that when it hits magic bounce, it's rejected back at the user, who takes the stat drop, while the opponent is randomly switched. This has saved me against calm mind blisseys and absol manaphys.
I'm on mobile, so I will leave most of the theorymoning to others, but I use some thing like project, drain punch, sub, parting shot. Obviously dies to pixelated speed.
Edit: Just to add to that, it also gets stuff like taunt, SD, bulk up, toxic, and even entertainment or torment if you want to mess with heliosk or catch espeeders on switch.
"I stand on the shoulders of giants" -- Isaac Newtonbp scrub
Not to diminish you at all :P Me first is a pretty sweet option!
Just so this post isn't total crap, here's what I've been using to check the -ates.
Magcargo @ Latiasite
Ability: Magma Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Yawn
- Toxic / Will-o-wisp
- Stealth Rock / Protect
It's Levitran, but it get recover and yawn. Can also dink all over non-special P-dons. Not much else to it. You can also switch on correct predictions and hope to burn before mega.
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magcargo: 141-166 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
Entei and Cobalion can 2KHO with Stone edge and CC, respectively, but neither wants the yawn/burn.
Chris Hansen (Magnezone) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Magic Coat
- Tri Attack
I've been getting pretty good use out of this Magnezone set. Pinsirite might seem an odd choice on a special attacker, but the type change on Magnezone catches a lot of people off guard. Going from Electric/Steel to Electric/Flying completely switches around its weaknesses, turning a x4 ground weakness to an immunity, flipping a fighting weakness into a resistance, and making fire neutral. This, combined with Magnet Pull lets it easily trap and eliminate steel Pinsirite users like Cobalion and Klingklang as well as the ever-present Blue Orb Skarmory, opening the way for something like Altarianite Entei to Extremespam its way to victory. Magic Coat is mainly just there to bounce back Pidgeotite Gengar's Hypnosis.
Well I thought I made a post a while back about tidying up the VR, but I can't find it now :(
Here's a tl;dr which is probably too long to bother reading anyway lol
Unrank everything in D except Reuniclus and Shaymin
Darmanitan C to D or unranked - what does this do except die? Unrank Dnite - Zygarde does everything better, its only niche is multiscale but I highly doubt that's enough to keep it ranked Kyub B- to C or D - its more or less outclassed by Kyurem-N (not completely, admittedly, but I don't know why you'd use it) Flygon B- to C - somewhat outclassed by Noivern, except that it has Quick Attack and Fairy/Ground STAB is pretty good Roserade B- to B - Red Orb can check Absolite Manaphy (it can be EV'd to always survive +3 ice beam), and 175 SpA Weather Balls and Solar Beams hit pretty hard. Genesect B to D/unranked - no idea why you'd use this, it's down in D/E in Ubers for a reason.
Not entirely sure what Azelf does except Fire Blast, which is okay but is it B worthy? Mienshao B to B- - seems pretty outclassed by Terrak etc
Not sure that Kangaskhan deserves to be in B+ - I don't know where it's ranked in Ubers but it's probably not as good here
How good is Gourgeist? It seems pretty awesome but I have to remind myself that it's PU in standard and there's probably a reason for that beyond its typing (yes, I know things change in OMs, but from being merely decent in PU to B+ here is quite the jump). In theory it's a fairly good wall with a great typing and decent enough movepool, but some clarity would be good
Add Red Orb to Togekiss
Mamoswine A- to B+/B - Lucarionite sounds amazing in theory but it's still very slow and struggles in an offensive metagame Cobalion A to A+ - Cobalion is nothing short of fantastic, it 2HKOs Blue Orb Skarm in base form (+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and can set up on it with Taunt. It also gets Volt Switch and Quick Attack depending on your team needs Raikou to A - In addition to the popular Red Orb sets it can also run a very effective Manectite pivot set. I didn't say A+ because the Red Orb set means you can't run Pdon which is still incredible (though annoyingly walled by Blissey) Arceus-N A+ to A - I was honestly very underwhelmed by Ekiller's damage output, it can run a bunch of sets which is why it deserves A for sure but Ekiller doesn't seem as good as normal Blissey A+ to S - this is very controversial and I'm not sure I'm sold on it. I don't have great arguments for it either except that it walls literally every unboosted mon except physical Fighting types.
Oh, and Diancite A to B - a lot of the time, you get a better power boost from another stone taking abilities into account, and Diancite destroys your defences. The speed is the biggest pull (as well as various mixed attackers), but otherwise I'd struggle to find a good 'mon that would choose Diancite most of the time (stuff like Terrakion usually prefers Lucarionite/Lopunnite, for example).
Well I thought I made a post a while back about tidying up the VR, but I can't find it now :(
Here's a tl;dr which is probably too long to bother reading anyway lol
Unrank everything in D except Reuniclus and Shaymin
Darmanitan C to D or unranked - what does this do except die? Unrank Dnite - Zygarde does everything better, its only niche is multiscale but I highly doubt that's enough to keep it ranked Kyub B- to C or D - its more or less outclassed by Kyurem-N (not completely, admittedly, but I don't know why you'd use it) Flygon B- to C - somewhat outclassed by Noivern, except that it has Quick Attack and Fairy/Ground STAB is pretty good Roserade B- to B - Red Orb can check Absolite Manaphy (it can be EV'd to always survive +3 ice beam), and 175 SpA Weather Balls and Solar Beams hit pretty hard. Genesect B to D/unranked - no idea why you'd use this, it's down in D/E in Ubers for a reason.
Not entirely sure what Azelf does except Fire Blast, which is okay but is it B worthy? Mienshao B to B- - seems pretty outclassed by Terrak etc
Not sure that Kangaskhan deserves to be in B+ - I don't know where it's ranked in Ubers but it's probably not as good here
How good is Gourgeist? It seems pretty awesome but I have to remind myself that it's PU in standard and there's probably a reason for that beyond its typing (yes, I know things change in OMs, but from being merely decent in PU to B+ here is quite the jump). In theory it's a fairly good wall with a great typing and decent enough movepool, but some clarity would be good
Add Red Orb to Togekiss
Mamoswine A- to B+/B - Lucarionite sounds amazing in theory but it's still very slow and struggles in an offensive metagame Cobalion A to A+ - Cobalion is nothing short of fantastic, it 2HKOs Blue Orb Skarm in base form (+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and can set up on it with Taunt. It also gets Volt Switch and Quick Attack depending on your team needs Raikou to A - In addition to the popular Red Orb sets it can also run a very effective Manectite pivot set. I didn't say A+ because the Red Orb set means you can't run Pdon which is still incredible (though annoyingly walled by Blissey) Arceus-N A+ to A - I was honestly very underwhelmed by Ekiller's damage output, it can run a bunch of sets which is why it deserves A for sure but Ekiller doesn't seem as good as normal Blissey A+ to S - this is very controversial and I'm not sure I'm sold on it. I don't have great arguments for it either except that it walls literally every unboosted mon except physical Fighting types.
Oh, and Diancite A to B - a lot of the time, you get a better power boost from another stone taking abilities into account, and Diancite destroys your defences. The speed is the biggest pull (as well as various mixed attackers), but otherwise I'd struggle to find a good 'mon that would choose Diancite most of the time (stuff like Terrakion usually prefers Lucarionite/Lopunnite, for example).
Cresselia
I understand that stall is a joke in Ubers, but this gains literally nothing in this metagame, and in standard it is UU. It can check Pdon, but it can do that in standard and is outclassed by Latis. It isn't weak to Ate's, but Arceus can do that instead. It has reliable recovery, but that's not enough for it to be good. The only possible use I can see is a non-ate weak levitator with bulk and lefties, which shouldn't be a needed niche. For goodness sake, just use Lati@site.
Deoxys-N
The infamous Uber still useless, Deoxys is outclassed in nearly every way by its forms. Please get this thing out.
I'd be willing to here any arguments, but this was sparked by a ladder match where I tried to persuade them not to use Cresselia and they replied that they wanted to use some less common but viable mons. We aren't a standard tier- we don't have to rank everything sorted here.
It is. Although why they stayed in the first turn or had espeed Deoxys-A is beyond me.
I've said this a lot, but the comparison of Keldeo and Manaphy is apt not just because of their similar characteristics, but also in their roles. They are both fast and powerful water types with set up moves that can sweep teams after their counters are gone. Yes, Keldeo is weak to ate, but at the very least it outclasses SceptilePhy because that is weak as well. Similarly, the Blue Orb Manaphy set is outclassed in the power department by Keldeo. It isn't after a boost, but the Blue Orb set is really only meant to boost in front of walls. While those do have the advantage of being lures in that people suspect the standard set, it really isn't a viability boost, and BluePhy even announces itself. This means we would have to compare the standard sets for each.
The relative merits as I see them:
Keldeo- More powerful, Boosts Special defense at the same time, has a second Stab, better Premega speed, Ability to hit on both sides of the spectrum, and nice but niche dark resistance.
Manaphy- Faster, better ability (Affectively, since Keldeo's is wasted matching Manaphy's power), Better coverage, and no Ate weakness.
Further, some of you're Keldeo counters are either barely counters or unviable. For the first we have Pdon, Blissey, and Manaphy; for the second we have Lugia and Giratina.
If Pdon has even 252/0 Bulk investment, it is beaten by 3/4 of keldeo's moves- Substitute, CM, and Secret Sword. While it can switch in on surf, the same can be said about manaphy- If Pdon comes in on an unboosted Manaphy's surf/scald, it wins. For reference, 252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. You need a defense boosting nature to be assured, because 252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primal Groudon: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO. It isn't a good chance, but that means that Keldeo wins 1/8 the time- and always with SR. 252/180+ is needed to always win, and even max can't save you with sr. In return, Pdon can... 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO... fail to KO
252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 352-416 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO. This is slowbronite, for the record
Ampharosite Manaphy is a joke. 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 262-310 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO//////252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 126-150 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 80.7% chance to 3HKO. Your "counter" takes a minimum of 62%- While checking. That's not even getting into the fact that these two sets are mutually exclusive.
Lugia is ravaged by SR and I have yet to see it used effectively, but I'm willing to suspend judgement if you have. Giratina is the same in that I haven't seen it, but with the addition of 252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 270-320 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. It, like Keldeo, is very weak to ates.
Manaphy has some fairly major advantages, but with Keldeo sitting comfortably in A I don't see it as being gamebreaking. Feel free to let me know if I missed something.
Its pretty rediculous, thats obvious. However, may I suggest Shadow Ball>Sludge Bomb? Fighting+Ghost is actually perfect coverage, bar bulletproof (Ie. trash named Chesnaught who walls you anyway) and a theoretical Ghost-Normal.
Pidgeotite Delphox has taken over Pideotite Gengar's slot on my team. I do occasionally miss the spinblocking utility of Gengar, but in practice most hazard managers are Defoggers in my experience, so it rarely matters. There's a loss in Special Attack, but Fire Blast hits harder than Sludge Wave does, let alone Shadow Ball, so it's debateable as a flaw. The ability to spread Burn with Will O Wisp is surprisingly useful. I'm running Psyshock as my Psychic STAB, and so far it's not been very helpful -I might switch to Psychic, to take advantage of the better BP and give her better utility against Primal Groudon, among other examples. (I'm still weirded out Delphox doesn't get Focus Blast)
Fiddling around with Pinsirite Tyrantrum. I haven't leveraged it successfully as yet, but I think that's more on me than on it so far, so I'm withholding judgement. Rock/Flying typing with Dragon Dance can be done by Tyranitar, of course, but Tyranitar doesn't get the nightmarish power of Head Smash, nor access to Rock Head pre-Mega.
Lastly, Ampharosite Clefable. Basically I wanted Stealth Rock and Heal Bell on the same Pokemon (Plus good recovery, so not Jirachi), and with a more useful typing than Mew's Psychic typing. It's been surprisingly good so far, able to tank a lot of threats, push Stealth Rock through Magic Bounce, and protect me from Paralysis and similar. It's more bulky than I expect it to be, and Fairy/Dragon typing has a very meta-relevant pool of resists.
I would like to point out that Sceptilite Manaphy isn't weak to Pinsirite, while Keldeo is. While Altarianite is overall the more popular -atespeed Mega Stone nowadays, Pinsirite isn't bad. It's just a poor fit for the two most popular -atespeeders, and it still sees use in spite of that.
There's also the point that part of the value of Sceptilite Manaphy is that it's neutral or immune to both the types that are Absolite Manaphy's only weaknesses -baiting out checks that aren't checks is nasty. Sceptilite Keldeo is an option, of course, but it remains weak to Fairy either way, so it's more likely that a check/counter switching into Sceptilite Keldeo remains a check or counter than if we're talking about Manaphy.
It can't beat any Sablenite Blissey with any coverage move, or indeed a Sablenite Blissey without a coverage move (Blissey win PP stall wars), this particular variant loathes Ghosts of any sort, and in general it's easy to put up a Substitute and then find yourself switching anyway. Calm Mind Blissey, in particular, can run Hyper Voice+Shadow Ball for perfect coverage while still having recovery, and uses you to set up.
In general it struggles with a lot of the good Special walls.
It is good against offensive teams unless you run into a surprise Absolite or Diancite abuser, but against balance and stall teams it can border into being a liability.
Gengar is not S-rank with Pidgeotite by any stretch.
I think you just made Banettite Pangoro meta-relevant, and not merely an interesting concept.
I made this set to BEAT Blissey , and not being walled by it , don't run shadowball it's crap on this set , and no Blissey loose the stall war ( you need 1sp drop and anyway if it switch into you blissey loose ) and the only special wall in my mind and does wall it , is Ho-oH running sleeptalk . This gengar set is a perfect answer for Blissey running T-wave and thinks they can switch in all day , and NO this set doesn't struggle against heavy special wall team . Have you ever played it ? ( no offense right there ) i gaved the set to two guy , they made it top 10/20 w/o problem and it took me so few time to make 2 alt reach 1550 and it took me less than a 100 total games for both account added together
Pangoro @ Banettite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Superpower / Crunch / Protect
- Me First
This set is actually really nice, being a good pivot w/ parting shot but also able to revenge kill with priority Me First. Parting Shot is obvious and I like Drain Punch to stay healthier. Protect obviously means you can get Prankster right away if needed, Crunch lets you switch in on some psychic types and hit them, and Superpower is nice since you can Parting Shot right after it, which means the -1 Attack/Def don't really matter.
If you don't know what Me First does, it's kinda like Snatch, except it copies your opponent's attacking moves only and at 1.5x the power. It only works if your pokemon goes first, which means its normally not a good option for revenge killing, but its a status move, so Prankster affects it.
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 878-1034 (270.9 - 319.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 322-379 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (obviously OHKOs offensive Groudon)
It also has decent bulk, able to take PBlades from max attack adamant PDon
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 306-361 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Dude this Pangoro is my new favorite thing. Me First is a brilliant idea, and Prankster Parting Shot is always useful. I'm probably going to have to add one to my team, I'm thinking good team support would be a reliable fairy/flying resist (Skarm) and something to make use of PS stat drops and sweep (Manaphy/Terrakion/Salamence). Any other suggested team members?
As a side note, I have been running MegaKanghaskhan on my newest team. Once I started using it I noticed I have never...ever battled an opposing one in MixnMega all month. Is there a reason people don't use it? It plays much differently than Ekiller and it's become one of my most valuable team members. It sets up PuP boosts on Blissey/Ferro/Skarm and proceeds to annihilate three of the most common mons used to deal with physical attackers. It's about just as good as it was in OU before it got banned. Fake Out is good for hitting before ateSpeeds too
It's one of the Interesting Threats/Concepts things you made, so it's in the OP.
It's also actually pretty decent, as it has a good statline for a Special-focused Jirachi while giving it the awesome Steel/Dragon typing. The other Mega Stones that provide Dragon typing don't have as good of a statline for it -Ampharosite drops you below 100 base Speed and Charizardite X has no Speed bonus, wasted points into Attack, and a useless Ability to Special Jirachi- so Sceptilite is just kind of the best Dragon-providing Stone for it.
See, I find that Sceptilite doesn't give quite enough of a Speed boost. 125 is still below the base 130 that seems to be this meta's benchmark for fast. Sceptilite also gives less Special Attack (+40 versus Ampharosite's +50), wastes even more points on Attack (+25 versus Ampharosite's +20), and gives mediocre defences (+10 Def versus Ampharosite's +20 Def/Sp. Def). On top of that, proc'ing Lightningrod seems somewhat unlikely for a Pokémon that isn't ordinarily weak to it, as compared to Mold Breaker allowing you to set SR through Magic Bounce and occasionally OHKO through Sturdy. On top of that, a slow U-turn is a good way to get fast, fragile attackers onto the field.
I can see how Sceptilite Jirachi could potentially be quite effective, but the problem seems to me that it is not quite fast enough, nor is it quite powerful enough.
Dude this Pangoro is my new favorite thing. Me First is a brilliant idea, and Prankster Parting Shot is always useful. I'm probably going to have to add one to my team, I'm thinking good team support would be a reliable fairy/flying resist (Skarm) and something to make use of PS stat drops and sweep (Manaphy/Terrakion/Salamence). Any other suggested team members?
Any Magic Bounce user (manaphy) is also really nice too since it doesn't really have to power to break through walls, so they can status it and pp stall while not caring about Me First or Parting Shot
Then Weather Ball from Red Orb Raikou and V-Create from Red Orb Victini would eat Goodra alive. I've made this set thinking if would be possible to wall Manaphy's sets and both Weathers (Blue and Red Orb).
That said, some Dragon with Aggronite is good for sure, but it would fit another role instead of walling Manaphy and Weathers Sweepers. Also, some Dragon with reliable recovery should use Aggronite instead of Goodra.
Aggronite Kyurem's a suprirsingly solid wall - it also gets Earth Power to wreck Red Orb useres. If you just want a Manaphy check, go with Red Orb Togekiss.
252+ SpA (Red Orb) Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (Aggronite) Kyurem in Harsh Sunshine: 219-258 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk (Red Orb) Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Aggronite) Kyurem in Harsh Sunshine: 276-325 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA (Red Orb) Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (Red Orb) Togekiss: 189-223 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA (Red Orb) Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (Red Orb) Togekiss in Harsh Sunshine: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk (Red Orb) Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Red Orb) Togekiss in Harsh Sunshine: 159-187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
So let's see:
1)In all calculations Venusaurite Goodra is better (3HKO instead of 2HKO, 5 or even 6HKO instead of 3HKO);
2)Raikou doesn't need a Calm Mind to 2HKO Aggronite Kyurem, while against Goodra it only 3HKO even with +1;
3)Togekiss must choose between HP+Def or HP+SpDef while Goodra can go HP+SpDef and still walls V-Create;
4)Red Orb Togekiss is weak to Stealth Rock;
5)Togekiss has Roost which is indeed better than RestTalk;
6)Anything else?
Riding the Pangoro wave, here's a variant on the Me First, momentum-gaining Bannettite user.
Mienshao @ Banettite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch / HJK if u mad
- Me First
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
This is a tiny bit stronger than Pangoro. Faster, and the combination of SD and baton pass let's it:
Have crazy powerful Me First
Hand a +2 boost to a teammate when faced with something you can't kill (Pairs well with steels...aggronite lando-T with RP is good)
Destroy Blissey
P.S. In any calcs, remember, Me First multiplies power by 1.5
P.P.S also remember baby doll eyes is +1 priority, so on Bannettite Leafeon, for instance, you can get +2 priority attack lowering that comes out before E-Speed. Ultra niche, but still a thing.
Ok so wanted to post on Manaphy for a while, but never got the chance to and other posters kinda sumed up what I wanted to say, so here we go:
Absolite Manaphy is one of the most threatening setup sweepers in MnM by far, maybe only being surpassed by Zygarde and Primal Groudon. Tail Glow gives it so much immediate power and Absolite gives it that extra +40 boost in speed which Manaphy will always appreciate to have. The problem I have with it really is that it is kinda unpredictable depending on which coverage move it is running, on one hand Energy Ball can deal with the bulky waters likes of Suicune, Keldeo, and Gyrados, but Hidden Power Ground can be run to deal with Red Orb users such as Victini, Raikou, and Groudon. The uncertainty your opponent is faced with can really become detrimental in the long run as bringing in the wrong check/counter can really lead to a GG. I also been running a Substitute + Calm Mind set that in conjunction with Magic Bounce, can really mess with your opponent, usually winning me a lot of matches. Don't get me wrong, there are certain checks and counters depending on which coverage move it runs, but the strain it puts on teambuilding to cover both possibilities is really absurd, and since it was temporarily banned, I am given the liberty to not waste two slots on my team for a Red Orb user and a bulky water just in case (I know, I am really paranoid of this thing).
Now Sceptilite Manaphy is also a major threat due to the combination of it's stats, typing, and ability truly expand its potential. Water / Dragon is amazing offensively and defensively especially when you factor in Lightning Rod makes it a true behemoth. This gives it more oppurtunities to setup Tail Glows and start sweeping, especially with the mindgame it creates before mega evolving, as players may think its holding an Absolite and fire off an Electric attack only for Manaphy to gain a boost. Mostly what applies to Absolite can be applied here as well, so I want repeat what I already states previously.
TL;DR: Manaphy is not broken in a sense that it is unbeatable and extremely hard to check and counter (ie: Cresselia, Dragonite and Lucario), but I feel it is an unhealthy presence in the MnM metagame due to the fact that teambuilding around it is very tedious and often limits creativity and liberty to run less viable pokemon. For this reason I believe it should be banned from holding a mega stone. Arguments for its ban stated previously also reflect my thoughts, and I didn't want to copy/paste them in my post.
Ok then. It wasn't that way even yesterday, however, so I'm really not sure where you are coming from. If it's just been patched I apologize. For instance, during the ILC match Mid ban, I used scarf Manaphy (I had to use the mon), and on friday I saw a Cresselia.
Finally managing to get a handle on how to use Pinsirite Tyrantrum. At this point I quite like it, as it often manages to grab a free Dragon Dance thanks to how its pre and post Mega Evolution typings work out -Steel and Ice are the only things that are effective both ways. In particular, the sudden immunity to Ground is great. It's bulky enough to power through a single Pixilate Extreme Speed, and it outright resists Aerilated Extreme Speed, so it's hard to revenge it with -atespeed.
The speed and coverage leave quite a bit to be desired, but I do like this one. I've played around a bit, but tbh Gengar usually works better. Still, it's completely unexpected and bewildering to my opponents, and still resist's Pixispeed.
It also resists Refrigerated Extreme Speed, which crops up occasionally as an anti-meta sort of thing.
The biggest advantage Gengar has in my experience in that it straight-up murders Mew, where Delphox needs a bit of luck or for Mew to have been chipped, assuming Sablenite Mew. The Speed tier also means Gengar beats Delphox, all else being equal, which means for instance Mega-d Gengar can revenge into Delphox and not vice-versa, but overall I've actually gotten a lot more use out of Delphox than out of Gengar. Fire Blast's raw power is surprisingly useful.
Pinsirite isn't bad, per se, But the sr weakness is really key. While on the first turn it can let you outright avoid many would be checks and lets you do far more damage to red orbers like Pdon, It still largely leaves Entei/zygarde walled by the same mons. The SR weakness is also huge. For Entei, It changes it from difficult to switch in to revenge-killer only, while for Zygarde really dislikes the chip. It does less damage, it has a worse typing... Really the obly thing to reccomend is that on zygarde it gives it a better matchup on other ates (for Entei its 50-50. The speed is nice, but in my experience bulky sets are more optimal.
I basically agree with everything you're saying, I'm just pointing out that it does matter that Sceptilite Manaphy isn't susceptible to Pinsirite Extreme Speed/Fake Out/etc while Keldeo with Pidgeotite or whatever is.
It is, isn't it? Sadly its weak to the ates that outprioritize it, but it still seems annoying to fight. Best of all, It can power through many stallmons. Preliminarily I'd suggest B/B+
I think the weakness to -ates actually isn't so bad, because it generally wouldn't want to fight them anyway, and they don't like trying to directly switch into it.
Oh, people have been theorymonning that for ages, but nobody had previously brought up Me First, which is what I think pushes it from "cool gimmick bro" to "Niche but meta-relevant".
Just so this post isn't total crap, here's what I've been using to check the -ates.
Magcargo @ Latiasite
Ability: Magma Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Yawn
- Toxic / Will-o-wisp
- Stealth Rock / Protect
It's Levitran, but it get recover and yawn. Can also dink all over non-special P-dons. Not much else to it. You can also switch on correct predictions and hope to burn before mega.
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magcargo: 141-166 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
Entei and Cobalion can 2KHO with Stone edge and CC, respectively, but neither wants the yawn/burn.
I made this set to BEAT Blissey , and not being walled by it , don't run shadowball it's crap on this set , and no Blissey loose the stall war ( you need 1sp drop and anyway if it switch into you blissey loose ) and the only special wall in my mind and does wall it , is Ho-oH running sleeptalk . This gengar set is a perfect answer for Blissey running T-wave and thinks they can switch in all day , and NO this set doesn't struggle against heavy special wall team . Have you ever played it ? ( no offense right there ) i gaved the set to two guy , they made it top 10/20 w/o problem and it took me so few time to make 2 alt reach 1550 and it took me less than a 100 total games for both account added together
I specified Calm Mind Blissey. One Special Defense Drop won't ruin it. Anyway, Focus Blast doesn't have the PP for its 10% chance to be stable.
I ran Pidgeotite Gengar for weeks, and I was never fully satisfied with it. Used correctly it can get in some damage, get something asleep and maybe grab a KO, but it runs into trouble against myriad Magic Bouncers and in particular only certain really passive Blissey sets can't directly kill it themselves -and they can still stall it out without bad luck.
As a side note, I have been running MegaKanghaskhan on my newest team. Once I started using it I noticed I have never...ever battled an opposing one in MixnMega all month. Is there a reason people don't use it? It plays much differently than Ekiller and it's become one of my most valuable team members. It sets up PuP boosts on Blissey/Ferro/Skarm and proceeds to annihilate three of the most common mons used to deal with physical attackers. It's about just as good as it was in OU before it got banned. Fake Out is good for hitting before ateSpeeds too
See, I find that Sceptilite doesn't give quite enough of a Speed boost. 125 is still below the base 130 that seems to be this meta's benchmark for fast. Sceptilite also gives less Special Attack (+40 versus Ampharosite's +50), wastes even more points on Attack (+25 versus Ampharosite's +20), and gives mediocre defences (+10 Def versus Ampharosite's +20 Def/Sp. Def). On top of that, proc'ing Lightningrod seems somewhat unlikely for a Pokémon that isn't ordinarily weak to it, as compared to Mold Breaker allowing you to set SR through Magic Bounce and occasionally OHKO through Sturdy. On top of that, a slow U-turn is a good way to get fast, fragile attackers onto the field.
I can see how Sceptilite Jirachi could potentially be quite effective, but the problem seems to me that it is not quite fast enough, nor is it quite powerful enough.
Getting the Lightning Rod off of Volt Switch isn't that hard, and there's plenty of Pokemon hovering somewhere above 100 and below 125 Speed to be happy you're beating the Speed tier of, including Pidgeotite Victini, Pinsirite Terrakion, Salamencite Archeops...
Ampharosite is probably better if you're going for stallbreaking (But then, is Draco Meteor really all that good for that role?), but Sceptilite is great if you're trying to holepunch/leverage surprise.
Absolite Manaphy is one of the most threatening setup sweepers in MnM by far, maybe only being surpassed by Zygarde and Primal Groudon. Tail Glow gives it so much immediate power and Absolite gives it that extra +40 boost in speed which Manaphy will always appreciate to have. The problem I have with it really is that it is kinda unpredictable depending on which coverage move it is running, on one hand Energy Ball can deal with the bulky waters likes of Suicune, Keldeo, and Gyrados, but Hidden Power Ground can be run to deal with Red Orb users such as Victini, Raikou, and Groudon. The uncertainty your opponent is faced with can really become detrimental in the long run as bringing in the wrong check/counter can really lead to a GG. I also been running a Substitute + Calm Mind set that in conjunction with Magic Bounce, can really mess with your opponent, usually winning me a lot of matches. Don't get me wrong, there are certain checks and counters depending on which coverage move it runs, but the strain it puts on teambuilding to cover both possibilities is really absurd, and since it was temporarily banned, I am given the liberty to not waste two slots on my team for a Red Orb user and a bulky water just in case (I know, I am really paranoid of this thing).
Now Sceptilite Manaphy is also a major threat due to the combination of it's stats, typing, and ability truly expand its potential. Water / Dragon is amazing offensively and defensively especially when you factor in Lightning Rod makes it a true behemoth. This gives it more oppurtunities to setup Tail Glows and start sweeping, especially with the mindgame it creates before mega evolving, as players may think its holding an Absolite and fire off an Electric attack only for Manaphy to gain a boost. Mostly what applies to Absolite can be applied here as well, so I want repeat what I already states previously.
TL;DR: Manaphy is not broken in a sense that it is unbeatable and extremely hard to check and counter (ie: Cresselia, Dragonite and Lucario), but I feel it is an unhealthy presence in the MnM metagame due to the fact that teambuilding around it is very tedious and often limits creativity and liberty to run less viable pokemon. For this reason I believe it should be banned from holding a mega stone. Arguments for its ban stated previously also reflect my thoughts, and I didn't want to copy/paste them in my post.
Riding the Pangoro wave, here's a variant on the Me First, momentum-gaining Bannettite user.
Mienshao @ Banettite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch / HJK if u mad
- Me First
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
This is a tiny bit stronger than Pangoro. Faster, and the combination of SD and baton pass let's it:
Have crazy powerful Me First
Hand a +2 boost to a teammate when faced with something you can't kill (Pairs well with steels...aggronite lando-T with RP is good)
Destroy Blissey
P.S. In any calcs, remember, Me First multiplies power by 1.5
P.P.S also remember baby doll eyes is +1 priority, so on Bannettite Leafeon, for instance, you can get +2 priority attack lowering that comes out before E-Speed. Ultra niche, but still a thing.
Blissey getting you down? Wish you could draw that sucker out early in the battle and kill it? Well, now you can! For a small payment of - wait this isn't an infomercial.
Here's a set I have created to rid yourself of an opposing Blissey almost instantly.
It may not look like much, and that's because Pidgeotite Gengar does. It's basically the go-to set for Gengar in this meta, and that's because it's really good. So, how does one kill a Blissey? Simply put in Gengar against one of the many things it can regularly Hypnosis + STAB/Focus Blast to death (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Cobalion, Terrakion, Mew, etc). The earlier on in the battle, the better, because your opponent will want to save his mon, and thus will send out their Blissey (of course if your opponent doesn't have a Blissey, this set isn't nearly as good but still can throw out STAB hits off 180 spA). Predict the Blissey switch, Mega, and Mean Look. It doesn't matter if the Blissey has already Sablenite MegaEvolved, that's the beauty of Mold Breaker. Now Gengar has it trapped, so first you must Taunt it (Gengar became Ghost/Dragon, so don't let yourself get Toxiced). Then Toxic it. Blissey will struggle to do anything (commonly runs Softboiled/Seismic Toss/Heal bell or Wish/Toxic or Twave, all of which don't work under Taunt and Gengar is immune to). You can spam Mean Look pp until it has died of Toxic, or speed up the process by throwing in some Sludge Waves, all the while keeping it under a constant Taunt.
I just created this set and haven't had a chance to use it yet, also I'm going with the assumption not enough people will read this that it becomes so well known it doesn't work on Showdown.
TL;DR: take advantage of Pidgeotite Gengar's infamy by surprising a Blissey switchin, trap it and kill it with Toxic and Taunt.
Blissey getting you down? Wish you could draw that sucker out early in the battle and kill it? Well, now you can! For a small payment of - wait this isn't an infomercial.
Here's a set I have created to rid yourself of an opposing Blissey almost instantly.
It may not look like much, and that's because Pidgeotite Gengar does. It's basically the go-to set for Gengar in this meta, and that's because it's really good. So, how does one kill a Blissey? Simply put in Gengar against one of the many things it can regularly Hypnosis + STAB/Focus Blast to death (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Cobalion, Terrakion, Mew, etc). The earlier on in the battle, the better, because your opponent will want to save his mon, and thus will send out their Blissey (of course if your opponent doesn't have a Blissey, this set isn't nearly as good but still can throw out STAB hits off 180 spA). Predict the Blissey switch, Mega, and Mean Look. It doesn't matter if the Blissey has already Sablenite MegaEvolved, that's the beauty of Mold Breaker. Now Gengar has it trapped, so first you must Taunt it (Gengar became Ghost/Dragon, so don't let yourself get Toxiced). Then Toxic it. Blissey will struggle to do anything (commonly runs Softboiled/Seismic Toss/Heal bell or Wish/Toxic or Twave, all of which don't work under Taunt and Gengar is immune to). You can spam Mean Look pp until it has died of Toxic, or speed up the process by throwing in some Sludge Waves, all the while keeping it under a constant Taunt.
I just created this set and haven't had a chance to use it yet, also I'm going with the assumption not enough people will read this that it becomes so well known it doesn't work on Showdown.
TL;DR: take advantage of Pidgeotite Gengar's infamy by surprising a Blissey switchin, trap it and kill it with Toxic and Taunt.
I'm going to try to play devil's advocate on Manaphy. TBH I don't really care if it gets banned, but I do want to see points addressed for both sides instead of only the pro-ban arguments that we have now.
Here's the problem I see with banning Manaphy: It doesn't help the metagame. A true banning philosophy is something we should've set up a long time ago. The problem with current banning is that we can't abide by OU banning philosophy, because if we did, we would be constantly banning the many things that define ban-worthy in OU. Ubers banning philosophy doesn't help either, because then we are left with excessively broken threats in the metagame. We need to be somewhere in the middle. Ban-worthy mons like Zygarde can't really be labeled as ban-worthy because we'd almost always have ban-worthy mons in our metagame, so we need to figure out how to define broken.
For me, the most important aspect of banning something is "is the metagame more fun to play without x than with it?" I find this is a good benchmark for OMs, regardless of whether or not something is banworthy, for example, Imposter in BH. It's most definitely broken by most measures, but the metagame is better with it than without.
The experience for me in the non-manaphy metagame wasn't nearly as fun as with Manaphy. Manaphy tends to make life easier for offense, having more flexibility around such a reliable sweeper - however Manaphy also restricts offense in that it has to run viable revenge killers to handle it. This means we can't really tell whether or not this change nerfs or buffs offense without testing it, which is why the suspect test was a good idea. Now, from my experience, the lack of manaphy in the tier is freeing up teamslots on offense, and LESS SO than stall and balance which could afford to run Manaphy checks to begin with. The ladder has been much more heavily offensive, and a lack of great sweepers means that most teams consist of 5 fast, hard hitters and one support mon for hazards and/or control. Or in some cases, one sweeper. This is NOT conducive for a balanced metagame. Manaphy, which isn't an outrageously metagame warping threat as is, seems to help the playstyles be balanced, which is a good thing.
In the long run, I don't really care for manaphy, but I think its important for us to look at the situation the metagame faces - is this metagame better than the non-manaphy metagame, REGARDLESS of whether or not its broken?
I, personally, am unsure if Manaphy is broken - I never encountered a single truly defensively oriented team in the 40 games I used it, and most balance teams seemed to have Ferrothorn or cm Blissey - but I do think the meta without Manaphy is much funner, because there's much more room to navigate around other very powerful threats. Manaphy is such a versatile threat that you really do want to have a dedicated counter, and other mons can very easily exploit this. The set I used was Tail Glow/Scald/Ice Beam/U-Turn, because I really feel that it's easy to stack mons that exploit Mana counters. Manaphy also has excellent synergy with essentially every other mon because it's two main sets have fantastic, and very different, defensive typings.
I also think it's worth evaluating Absolite's impact on Manaphy (not suggesting an absolite ban, of course, but rather that Manaphy is the clear best user and it gives Mana a huge amount of versatility outside of wallbreaking/sweeping). I've found that even supposed counters can become very threatened by Manaphy pivoting in because of Absolite. As someone who used Absolite Starmie, Gengar, Keldeo, Celebi and Latios regularly during the period Manaphy was gone, I can honestly say Mana is much better at taking advantage of the stone's boosts than any given one of these (offensive magic bounce users being very different from defensive!). If Absolite Manaphy is on the cusp of being broken, why wouldn't other sets push it over the edge?
Perish Song is good, I didn't consider it only because I felt the Gengar would be too useless against most things other than Blissey. Poisoning other walls that switch is nice, things like Sablenite Ghost types or bulky waters, etc, that hate status and could KO Gengar before Perish Song would kill. Unless Gengar added Protect over Taunt. Ok, this is now another option.
Gengar @ Ampharosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (OR) 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mean Look
- Perish Song
- Sludge Wave / Shadow Ball
- Protect
New alternative Blissey/other irritating wall killer.
