Ladder Mix and Mega

Perish Song is good, I didn't consider it only because I felt the Gengar would be too useless against most things other than Blissey. Poisoning other walls that switch is nice, things like Sablenite Ghost types or bulky waters, etc, that hate status and could KO Gengar before Perish Song would kill. Unless Gengar added Protect over Taunt. Ok, this is now another option.

Gengar @ Ampharosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (OR) 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mean Look
- Perish Song
- Sludge Wave / Shadow Ball
- Protect

New alternative Blissey/other irritating wall killer.
You could also use Gyaradosite, which doesn't drop your speed, gives a nice Dark typing, and gives better bulk than Ampharosite, at the cost of lower Sp. Atk.
Also, Taunt and Wil-O-Wisp are good options for killing set-up sweepers, as well as stopping annoyances like Blissey cold.
 
I'm going to try to play devil's advocate on Manaphy. TBH I don't really care if it gets banned, but I do want to see points addressed for both sides instead of only the pro-ban arguments that we have now.

Here's the problem I see with banning Manaphy: It doesn't help the metagame. A true banning philosophy is something we should've set up a long time ago. The problem with current banning is that we can't abide by OU banning philosophy, because if we did, we would be constantly banning the many things that define ban-worthy in OU. Ubers banning philosophy doesn't help either, because then we are left with excessively broken threats in the metagame. We need to be somewhere in the middle. Ban-worthy mons like Zygarde can't really be labeled as ban-worthy because we'd almost always have ban-worthy mons in our metagame, so we need to figure out how to define broken.

For me, the most important aspect of banning something is "is the metagame more fun to play without x than with it?" I find this is a good benchmark for OMs, regardless of whether or not something is banworthy, for example, Imposter in BH. It's most definitely broken by most measures, but the metagame is better with it than without.

The experience for me in the non-manaphy metagame wasn't nearly as fun as with Manaphy. Manaphy tends to make life easier for offense, having more flexibility around such a reliable sweeper - however Manaphy also restricts offense in that it has to run viable revenge killers to handle it. This means we can't really tell whether or not this change nerfs or buffs offense without testing it, which is why the suspect test was a good idea. Now, from my experience, the lack of manaphy in the tier is freeing up teamslots on offense, and LESS SO than stall and balance which could afford to run Manaphy checks to begin with. The ladder has been much more heavily offensive, and a lack of great sweepers means that most teams consist of 5 fast, hard hitters and one support mon for hazards and/or control. Or in some cases, one sweeper. This is NOT conducive for a balanced metagame. Manaphy, which isn't an outrageously metagame warping threat as is, seems to help the playstyles be balanced, which is a good thing.


In the long run, I don't really care for manaphy, but I think its important for us to look at the situation the metagame faces - is this metagame better than the non-manaphy metagame, REGARDLESS of whether or not its broken?
"Fun" runs into the problem that different people find different things fun. I've found Manaphy unfun, period, having to face extremely tense situations where if I make a single error, match over, I lose, Pokemon count irrelevant, everything else irrelevant, and it's really hard to say what the right answer is because Absolite and Sceptilite require entirely different answers and it also matters whether Manaphy chooses to Tail Glow or lob a Scald -if it does the latter, a Red Orber is a free switchin, while if it does the former you're probably better off either attacking or switching in an -atespeeder. I'm sure there are people who find Manaphy contributes to making the meta fun because they personally like having a powerful setup sweeper that isn't held back by any major Achilles Heels. Fun is the goal, yes, but using it as the direct metric for deciding a ban/unban isn't very helpful.

During the period in which Manaphy was banned I saw an increase in team diversity, personally, because now people didn't need multiple checks to Manaphy on literally every team to not be auto-killed by it, which was a problem given how little constitutes a check to it. Pre-ban I kept seeing the same Pokemon across teams, over and over again. Post-ban Red Orb stopped being a given on any half-decent team, and I saw fewer cases of Entei+Zygarde -more teams carrying just one or the other.

I've also seen in increase in the variety of setup sweepers, rather than most any team running Manaphy with maybe a Physical setup sweeper if they were running setup sweepers at all.

As far as I can tell, by all the metrics (Except maybe "fun") you're talking about, Manaphy makes the meta worse, restricting play to an extremely narrow set of options if you want to function at all, while doing nothing to check any other egregious problems. (It's not like it restricts how influential -atespeed is, given that -atespeed is one of the only halfway reliable answers to it!) Offense is literally stupid for not running Manaphy and is even stupider for not running double -atespeed to check Manaphy and is probably also stupid if it doesn't have a Red Orb somewhere in there, preferably one that isn't Primal Groudon so it actually resists Grass/Ice. (About the only nice thing I have to say about Manaphy's apparent influence on the meta is that it drove Primal Groudon out of popularity) That's 4 out of 6 teams members basically already defined for an offense team, and it about describes what I saw from offensive teams before Manaphy was temp-banned.

I also think it's worth evaluating Absolite's impact on Manaphy (not suggesting an absolite ban, of course, but rather that Manaphy is the clear best user and it gives Mana a huge amount of versatility outside of wallbreaking/sweeping). I've found that even supposed counters can become very threatened by Manaphy pivoting in because of Absolite. As someone who used Absolite Starmie, Gengar, Keldeo, Celebi and Latios regularly during the period Manaphy was gone, I can honestly say Mana is much better at taking advantage of the stone's boosts than any given one of these (offensive magic bounce users being very different from defensive!). If Absolite Manaphy is on the cusp of being broken, why wouldn't other sets push it over the edge?
I bolded the last sentence because I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say there. I think you make good points overall, I just don't know what this last sentence even means.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
"Fun" runs into the problem that different people find different things fun. I've found Manaphy unfun, period, having to face extremely tense situations where if I make a single error, match over, I lose, Pokemon count irrelevant, everything else irrelevant, and it's really hard to say what the right answer is because Absolite and Sceptilite require entirely different answers and it also matters whether Manaphy chooses to Tail Glow or lob a Scald -if it does the latter, a Red Orber is a free switchin, while if it does the former you're probably better off either attacking or switching in an -atespeeder. I'm sure there are people who find Manaphy contributes to making the meta fun because they personally like having a powerful setup sweeper that isn't held back by any major Achilles Heels. Fun is the goal, yes, but using it as the direct metric for deciding a ban/unban isn't very helpful.

During the period in which Manaphy was banned I saw an increase in team diversity, personally, because now people didn't need multiple checks to Manaphy on literally every team to not be auto-killed by it, which was a problem given how little constitutes a check to it. Pre-ban I kept seeing the same Pokemon across teams, over and over again. Post-ban Red Orb stopped being a given on any half-decent team, and I saw fewer cases of Entei+Zygarde -more teams carrying just one or the other.

I've also seen in increase in the variety of setup sweepers, rather than most any team running Manaphy with maybe a Physical setup sweeper if they were running setup sweepers at all.

As far as I can tell, by all the metrics (Except maybe "fun") you're talking about, Manaphy makes the meta worse, restricting play to an extremely narrow set of options if you want to function at all, while doing nothing to check any other egregious problems. (It's not like it restricts how influential -atespeed is, given that -atespeed is one of the only halfway reliable answers to it!) Offense is literally stupid for not running Manaphy and is even stupider for not running double -atespeed to check Manaphy and is probably also stupid if it doesn't have a Red Orb somewhere in there, preferably one that isn't Primal Groudon so it actually resists Grass/Ice. (About the only nice thing I have to say about Manaphy's apparent influence on the meta is that it drove Primal Groudon out of popularity) That's 4 out of 6 teams members basically already defined for an offense team, and it about describes what I saw from offensive teams before Manaphy was temp-banned.



I bolded the last sentence because I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say there. I think you make good points overall, I just don't know what this last sentence even means.
I was actually trying not to address manaphy's brokenness directly, but personally I and several others haven't had excessive problems defeating it. I haven't been swept by it once, actually, besides when I first discovered it right at the beginning of last OMotM (literally within hours of a ladder).

My problem is that more diversity isn't necessarily fun, for the same reasons I tried to illustrate in my last post. In an ideal world, diversity is a great thing for a metagame, but realistically, one look at post-diggersby stabmons and the current AAA ban-happy tournament was all you needed to put that notion aside. Large diversity in threats doesn't free up teamslots; often it requires you to run MORE BLANKET CHECKS to accomplish the same thing. Without Manaphy, the number of hole punchers you have to prepare for go way up because of the reduced restriction on offense, which leads to more restriction for teams that are running anything but HO. Does that make sense? This is actually what I have noticed on the ladder during the suspect test - building teams that aren't HO and stacked with sweepers and wallbreakers is very difficult to do because of the sheer number of threats you are forced to prepare for in order to not get swept or destroyed by SOMETHING.

This is the same issue with the post-diggersby stabmons meta, and how before its ban, stall was actually a viable playstyle. Post-ban, the offensive diversity was so high that stall became impossible to run, and a slew of bans were made, eventually leading to two transformations of the entire metagame. Now, Manaphy is obviously NOT Diggersby, but this just goes to show that more diversity isn't always a good thing. In my experience on the ladder, running teams that handle threats is much harder than it was before.

Again, I'm still neutral on this, but I feel like this is a possibility that most OMers don't really consider. The lesson has been showed before, so I don't really understand why it's still up for grabs.
 
Hey everyone. Despite there already being so many recommended stones for Hoopa-Unbound on the VR, in this post I'm gonna push for yet another one to be added. Blastoisinite! This wasn't an original idea of mine though. I just decided to use Blastoisinite Hoopa-U myself after watching and playing against ebiolide goomie. I added it in the making of my new team that I've been pretty successful with.

To make it easier to understand why Blastoisinite Hoopa-U is very good, in this post I'm gonna compare the benefits that Blastoisinite gives to Hoopa-Unbound, as opposed to the benefits that Cameruptite gives it. I chose Cameruptite because it and Blastoisinite make Hoopa-U perform a similar role (plus comparing them is so easy due to them being right next to each other on the Mega Stone Changes list).

First let's compare power: Cameruptite gives +40 to SpAtk while Blastoisinite gives +50 to SpAtk. Cameruptite gives Hoopa-U a stronger Psychic and Focus Blast due to the 30% Sheer Force boost. Dark Pulse also gets the Sheer Force boost, but Blastoisinite grants a much stronger Dark Pulse due to the 50% boost with Mega Launcher. So it really doesn't matter that Cameruptite gives a stronger Psychic because of the fact that a Mega Launcher Dark Pulse is more lethal and spammable. That and there is always Psyshock available for a psychic stab. But what does kinda matter is that Cameruptite gives a stronger Focus Blast, cause it makes dealing with Blissey easier. Depends which Blissey it is though...
252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 418-492 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 346-408 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 316-372 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

So against the Slowbronite Blissey (the one with the weaker special bulk), Cameruptite Hoopa-U can secure the 2HKO without boosting as long as that Blissey isn't fully invested on the special side. If it is fully invested on the special side, then Focus Blast has more of a chance to miss than actually 2HKO.
252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 334-394 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 276-326 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Blastoisinite Hoopa-U can only achieve the success of 2HKOing Slowbronite Blissey if the Blissey has invested EVs into HP and not into SpDef.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Blissey: 314-370 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Blissey: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
So just by investing into HP, Sablenite Blissey will stop the 2HKO from both Psyshock and Focus Blast (to be fair the 12.5 chance for the 2HKO with Psyshock is legit, but the chance is just too small for me to really consider it).
252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Blissey: 327-385 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
Just HP investment for Sablenite Blissey doesn't stop an unboosted Blastoisinite Hoopa-U from a decent chance to 2HKO.

But being real here, No Sablenite Blissey or Slowbronite Blissey will just be invested in HP, and depending on it's EV placement, whichever move you chose may or may not 2HKO. It's up to chance. But it isn't up to chance if the Hoopa-U gets a nasty plot up. Be it a Cameruptite or Blastoisinite Hoopa-U, you will always be guaranteed a 2HKO on a Blissey at +2:
+2 252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbronite Blissey: 358-423 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I showed Psyshock just for show, but Mega Launcher Dark Pulse would do 69.8 - 82.3% to this Blissey after the Psyshock to secure the KO. At +2, it doesn't matter whether you click Psyshock first or Dark Pulse first (youll always get the 2HKO), but I'd recommend for Blastoisinite Hoopa-U users to always click Dark Pulse first for the nice flinch chance.
+2 252+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Blissey: 297-349 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And after that you know it's invested in SpDef and hit it with a Psyshock for 91.3 - 107.5%.

The bulk: Cameruptite gives +30 to both defenses while Blastoisinite gives +20 to Def and +10 to SpDef. The difference in bulk isn't that significant so whatever attack that can 2HKO a Blastoisinite Hoopa-U, will most likely be able to also 2HKO a Cameruptite Hoopa-U as well.

And last but not least, the selling point for me, the speed: Cameruptite gives -20 Spe while Blastoisinite doesn't alter the Speed stat. Having a decent 80 base Speed stat is amazing for a wall breaker like Hoopa-U. It naturally outspeeds the uninvested mons with below an 80 base speed stat like Latiasite Heatran, Blue Orb Skarmory, and Sablenite Mew. But unfortunately for Cameruptite Hoopa-U, it has the low base speed of 60. So if it wants to go first against any notable mon in this meta besides a Blissey, Ferrothorn, Snorlax, Slow(bro/king), or a random Sablenite user, it means that Trick Room must be in place. But Trick Room isn't good for teams like mine that rely on a scarfed Ditto for revenge killing, and it isn't good for the many teams in M&M that consist mainly of fast hitters. Blastoisinite Hoopa-U does the role of being a Specially bulky wall breaker like Cameruptite Hoopa-U, but it simply fits better onto most teams. tl;dr: If you're making a team with Cameruptite Hoopa-Unbound, and it isn't a Trick Room team, go with Blastoisinite Hoopa-Unbound instead.

This is a battle I had that really showcases the strengths of Blastoisinite Hoopa-U: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-334222038

Also, I believe that Ditto should rise from C to B+. Its been useful on my old and new team every match that I've played. I don't feel the need to run an espeeder because of my Ditto, and in a meta with no viable Unaware mons, I think that Ditto is the best available answer to setup sweepers (not the Trick Room setup sweepers though (but nobody uses those so that's good)).
 
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Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I bolded the last sentence because I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say there. I think you make good points overall, I just don't know what this last sentence even means.
I meant that a lot of arguments seem to be "Is Absolite Manaphy (or Absolite + Sceptilite) broken?", but Absolite is obviously not it's only set. Even if Absolite + Sceptile is just barely not broken, Manaphy has other viable, but not as good sets that also have a small niche over it's other sets - Manectite has a substantial bulk increase, Blue Orb has a ton of power, even Houndoomite probably has a niche in destroying Red Orb checks - and Manaphy doesn't specifically need any one boost when each viable stone gives at least a speed or substantial power boost.

tl;dr: If you're making a team with Cameruptite Hoopa-Unbound, and it isn't a Trick Room team, go with Blastoisinite Hoopa-Unbound instead.
But Trick Room is incredibly easy to support in this meta even without dedicated trick room mons because of how fast the meta is, plus the ease of fitting priority on most teams. I'm not convinced that having a slow wallbreaker who's forced out by everything is worth using, ever, over an even slower wallbreaker who can at least harass offensive mons that aren't using priority. Not fully disagreeing with the other points, but I haven't found stalling the last 1-2 trick room turns I have left after being revenged all that difficult.

At the same time, I've found Sablenite to be a very cool pick on Hoopa-U on true dedicated TR teams because Hoopa does often want to use Psyshock, something else probably would like Cameruptite, and Nasty Plot is totally a viable pick over Focus Blast to really smash most Blissey.
 
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Hey everyone. Despite there already being so many recommended stones for Hoopa-Unbound on the VR, in this post I'm gonna push for yet another one to be added. Blastoisinite! This wasn't an original idea of mine though. I just decided to use Blastoisinite Hoopa-U myself after watching and playing against ebiolide goomie. I added it in the making of my new team that I've been pretty successful with.

To make it easier to understand why Blastoisinite Hoopa-U is very good, in this post I'm gonna compare the benefits that Blastoisinite gives to Hoopa-Unbound, as opposed to the benefits that Cameruptite gives it. I chose Cameruptite because it and Blastoisinite make Hoopa-U perform a similar role (plus comparing them is so easy due to them being right next to each other on the Mega Stone Changes list).

First let's compare power: Cameruptite gives +40 to SpAtk while Blastoisinite gives +50 to SpAtk. Cameruptite gives Hoopa-U a stronger Psychic and Focus Blast due to the 30% Sheer Force boost. Dark Pulse also gets the Sheer Force boost, but Blastoisinite grants a much stronger Dark Pulse due to the 50% boost with Mega Launcher. So it really doesn't matter that Cameruptite gives a stronger Psychic because of the fact that a Mega Launcher Dark Pulse is more lethal and spammable. That and there is always Psyshock available for a psychic stab. But what does kinda matter is that Cameruptite gives a stronger Focus Blast, cause it makes dealing with Blissey easier. Depends which Blissey it is though...
252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 418-492 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 346-408 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 316-372 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

So against the Slowbronite Blissey (the one with the weaker special bulk), Cameruptite Hoopa-U can secure the 2HKO without boosting as long as that Blissey isn't fully invested on the special side. If it is fully invested on the special side, then Focus Blast has more of a chance to miss than actually 2HKO.
252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 334-394 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Slowbronite Blissey: 276-326 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Blastoisinite Hoopa-U can only achieve the success of 2HKOing Slowbronite Blissey if the Blissey has invested EVs into HP and not into SpDef.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Blissey: 314-370 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Cameruptite Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Blissey: 313-370 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
So just by investing into HP, Sablenite Blissey will stop the 2HKO from both Psyshock and Focus Blast (to be fair the 12.5 chance for the 2HKO with Psyshock is legit, but the chance is just too small for me to really consider it).
252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Blissey: 327-385 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
Just HP investment for Sablenite Blissey doesn't stop an unboosted Blastoisinite Hoopa-U from a decent chance to 2HKO.

But being real here, No Sablenite Blissey or Slowbronite Blissey will just be invested in HP, and depending on it's EV placement, whichever move you chose may or may not 2HKO. It's up to chance. But it isn't up to chance if the Hoopa-U gets a nasty plot up. Be it a Cameruptite or Blastoisinite Hoopa-U, you will always be guaranteed a 2HKO on a Blissey at +2:
+2 252+ SpA Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbronite Blissey: 358-423 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I showed Psyshock just for show, but Mega Launcher Dark Pulse would do 69.8 - 82.3% to this Blissey after the Psyshock to secure the KO. At +2, it doesn't matter whether you click Psyshock first or Dark Pulse first (youll always get the 2HKO), but I'd recommend for Blastoisinite Hoopa-U users to always click Dark Pulse first for the nice flinch chance.
+2 252+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoisinite Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Blissey: 297-349 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And after that you know it's invested in SpDef and hit it with a Psyshock for 91.3 - 107.5%.

The bulk: Cameruptite gives +30 to both defenses while Blastoisinite gives +20 to Def and +10 to SpDef. The difference in bulk isn't that significant so whatever attack that can 2HKO a Blastoisinite Hoopa-U, will most likely be able to also 2HKO a Cameruptite Hoopa-U as well.

And last but not least, the selling point for me, the speed: Cameruptite gives -20 Spe while Blastoisinite doesn't alter the Speed stat. Having a decent 80 base Speed stat is amazing for a wall breaker like Hoopa-U. It naturally outspeeds the uninvested mons with below an 80 base speed stat like Latiasite Heatran, Blue Orb Skarmory, and Sablenite Mew. But unfortunately for Cameruptite Hoopa-U, it has the low base speed of 60. So if it wants to go first against any notable mon in this meta besides a Blissey, Ferrothorn, Snorlax, Slow(bro/king), or a random Sablenite user, it means that Trick Room must be in place. But Trick Room isn't good for teams like mine that rely on a scarfed Ditto for revenge killing, and it isn't good for the many teams in M&M that consist mainly of fast hitters. Blastoisinite Hoopa-U does the role of being a Specially bulky wall breaker like Cameruptite Hoopa-U, but it simply fits better onto most teams. tl;dr: If you're making a team with Cameruptite Hoopa-Unbound, and it isn't a Trick Room team, go with Blastoisinite Hoopa-Unbound instead.
Blastoisinite is directly outclassed by cameruptite. Against a max investment new, you lose ~13% power on psychic and focus blast and ~9% on tbolt, eball and uninvested gunk shot. Only dark pulse is stronger, doing 68% vs 57%. (All of these made to hit mew neutrally). Dark pulse from blastoisonite does 68% compared to 64% from camr. psychic. So you lose a lot of power on everything except for your least spammable move, which just so happens to give every pixilater and lopnnite user a switch in.

Furthermore, 80 is a CRAP speed tier in this meta, so the -20 from cameruptite does nothing at worst and makes you fast under TR and best.

If speed is truly the selling point, then you can not invest in bulk and might not use modest. So, your power than is lower across the board and you take hits way worse.

The bulk is a big differense, since cameruptite will always be 252 HP/252+ Spa. Blastoisonite is easily 2hkod by pidgiotite keldeo at 0/0, while 252/0 cameruptite is 2hkod only like 5% of the time.


Don't use blastosinite on hoopa-u.
I would expand on this, but im on mobile.
 
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But Trick Room is incredibly easy to support in this meta even without dedicated trick room mons because of how fast the meta is, plus the ease of fitting priority on most teams. I'm not convinced that having a slow wallbreaker who's forced out by everything is worth using, ever, over an even slower wallbreaker who can at least harass offensive mons that aren't using priority. Not fully disagreeing with the other points, but I haven't found stalling the last 1-2 trick room turns I have left after being revenged all that difficult.

At the same time, I've found Sablenite to be a very cool pick on Hoopa-U on true dedicated TR teams because Hoopa does often want to use Psyshock, something else probably would like Cameruptite, and Nasty Plot is totally a viable pick over Focus Blast to really smash most Blissey.
Blastoisinite Hoopa isn't forced out by everything though. It has good special bulk so it will never be OHKOd by any unboosted special attacker in the meta as long as they don't have a bug coverage move or a stab fairy move. And depending on their investment, they can be OHKOd themselves by unboosted Mega Launcher Dark Pulse or Psyshock. I would post calcs but I'm on mobile now. And it's below average physical bulk isn't that bad. You can survive some moderately strong hits. Like I remember it survived a Close Combat from a Diancite Terak with 8%, but the Terak was at -1 so whatever.

Blastoisinite is directly outclassed by cameruptite. Against a max investment new, you lose ~13% power on psychic and focus blast and ~9% on tbolt, eball and uninvested gunk shot. Only dark pulse is stronger, doing 68% vs 57%. (All of these made to hit mew neutrally). Dark pulse from blastoisonite does 68% compared to 64% from camr. psychic. So you lose a lot of power on everything except for your least spammable move, which just so happens to give every pixilater and lopnnite user a switch in.

Furthermore, 80 is a CRAP speed tier in this meta, so the -20 from cameruptite does nothing at worst and makes you fast under TR and best.

If speed is truly the selling point, then you can not invest in bulk and might not use modest. So, your power than is lower across the board and you take hits way worse.

The bulk is a big differense, since cameruptite will always be 252 HP/252+ Spa. Blastoisonite is easily 2hkod by pidgiotite keldeo at 0/0, while 252/0 cameruptite is 2hkod only like 5% of the time.


Don't use blastosinite on hoopa-u.
I would expand on this, but im on mobile.
I don't think I made it clear so sorry. I don't invest speed into it. The EV spread for Blastoisinite Hoopa-U should be 252 HP/252+ Spa as well. So their bulk will still be around the same. I was just saying when it's uninvested in speed it will outspeed the other mons below 80 base speed that are also uninvested, like Blue Orb Skarmory.
 
Blastoisinite Hoopa isn't forced out by everything though. It has good special bulk so it will never be OHKOd by any unboosted special attacker in the meta as long as they don't have a bug coverage move or a stab fairy move. And depending on their investment, they can be OHKOd themselves by unboosted Mega Launcher Dark Pulse or Psyshock. I would post calcs but I'm on mobile now. And it's below average physical bulk isn't that bad. You can survive some moderately strong hits. Like I remember it survived a Close Combat from a Diancite Terak with 8%, but the Terak was at -1 so whatever.


I don't think I made it clear so sorry. I don't invest speed into it. The EV spread for Blastoisinite Hoopa-U should be 252 HP/252+ Spa as well. So their bulk will still be around the same. I was just saying when it's uninvested in speed it will outspeed the other mons below 80 base speed that are also uninvested, like Blue Orb Skarmory.
Sorry to quote entire post, it's a pain to copy paste on phone. I think if 252hp/252+ spa is the case, there is not much room for a slow, moderately bulky dark pulse machine, over a bulkier, generally more powerful, cameruptite set, that can also abuse TR. If you are just going to be blasting stuff with dark pulse for 1 turn at a time, why not use an actually fast nuke like lucarionite latios? (Draco stronger than dark pulse, equal psyshocks)
 
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Would be nice if Not Fully Evolved pokemon could mega evolve on this metagame. Mostly because of Latiasite Doublade since Aegiglash is Uber thus can't hold a Mega Stone.
 
Sorry to quote entire post, it's a pain to copy paste on phone. I think if 252hp/252+ spa is the case, there is not much room for a slow, moderately bulky dark pulse machine, over a bulkier, generally more powerful, cameruptite set, that can also abuse TR. If you are just going to be blasting stuff with dark pulse for 1 turn at a time, why not use an actually fast nuke like lucarionite latios? (Draco stronger than dark pulse, equal psyshocks)
Kinda gonna repeat some of what was written in my original post.

I believe 80 base speed is good for it because it can outspeed a handful of walls (that are uninvested in speed) in this meta. Notable ones are Latiasite Heatran, Blue Orb Skarmory, and Sablenite Mew.

Cameruptite Hoopa-U is only slightly bulkier than Blastoisinite Hoopa-U. Pidgeotite Keldeo 2HKOs Blastoisinite Hoopa-U with Focus Blast and it has a 95% chance of 2HKOing Cameruptite.

I don't think it's right to say that Cameruptite makes Hoopa-U generally more powerful just because Sheer Force boosts many of the coverage moves it has access too. The only moves you really need to run are a psychic stab, a dark stab, and a fighting move. What I run on my Blastoisinite Hoopa-U is Dark Pulse, Psyshock, Drain Punch and Nasty Plot.
Mega Launcher Dark Pulse hits a lot harder than Sheer Force Dark Pulse and a little bit harder than Sheer Force Psychic (as shown in your calcs), but ML Dark Pulse is plenty more spammable than SF Psychic due to the fact that dark isn't resisted by the pretty common steel types.
252+ SpA Mega Launcher (Blastoisinite) Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD (Latiasite) Heatran: 198-234 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Launcher (Blastoisinite) Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (Blue Orb) Skarmory: 250-295 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It will OHKO if if the skarm is physically defensive.

252+ SpA Mega Launcher (Blastoisinite) Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (Blue Orb) Suicune: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Psyshock would do a sliver of bit more to this Suicune.

Blastoisinite gives a slightly stronger Psyshock than Cameruptite does because of the extra +10 SpAtk.
I use Drain Punch over Focus Blast cause Yveltal and Mandibuzz aren't usually seen and the only common dark type in this meta is Weavile. And even with a hindering nature, this will of course kill Weaviles. So with Drain Punch it gets full accuracy and a chance to heal damage off by itself.
And Nasty Plot is for dealing with Blisseys.

Abusing Trick Room... This is where it comes down to preference. Comparing Cameruptite and Blastoisinite, you see that there are no major differences to the benefits it gives Hoopa-U. But I don't personally see why one would use Cameruptite over Blastoisinite on a non-TR team. Trick room is nice for Hoopa-U no doubt, but it wastes a moveslot for it and it's only 3 turns. If it has other mons that support and benefit from TR, then it would make perfect sense to run it, but when it doesn't, I'd say Blastoisinite Hoopa-U is more useful because of it's speed.

While writing my original post I was thinking "why use this over Pidgeotite Thundy?", but then I remembered that Blastoisinite Hoopa-U is more Specially bulky and has more power right off the bat with ML Dark Pulse. Lucarionite Latios on the other hand seems like a good alternative, but it just can't hit steel types as hard as Blastoisinite Hoopa-U can.

Foz you're not revenge killing it with a special attacker, you're revenge killing with a physical attacker. You'd obviously use a physical attacker too revenge kill it. That's the point of revenge killing
Sorry, I don't really know what this post is addressing.

EDIT: Just posted *Calcs for Mega Launcher Dark Pulse.
 
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Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Sorry, I don't really know what this post is addressing.
They're saying that, if someone is trying to revenge Blastoisinite Hoopa-U (or any given Hoopa), they'd usually opt for a physical attacker because of Hoopa's very nice special bulk.

In general, nasty plot Hoopa, regardless of stone, will always be a good wallbreaker; life orb Hoopa would be a usable wallbreaker in this meta. That's just what Hoopa-Unbound does. I don't see Blastoisinite offering anything particularly worthwhile any other given Hoopa stone doesn't, but it does offer less in terms of speed compared to every other viable stone, factoring in how hard Cameruptite/Sablenite's trick room sets destroy offensive teams in this meta once espeeders (or even just pixispeeders) are gone. I also am really confused why you mentioned Weavile - a mon who wins 1 v 1 with essentially every one of it's viable sets (252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) - as a target for Drain Punch; essentially no Hoopa-U set has switch ins anyways. I just don't get what makes this one worth using over any other set but I do see reasons I'd use other sets over this one.
 
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I was actually trying not to address manaphy's brokenness directly, but personally I and several others haven't had excessive problems defeating it. I haven't been swept by it once, actually, besides when I first discovered it right at the beginning of last OMotM (literally within hours of a ladder).

My problem is that more diversity isn't necessarily fun, for the same reasons I tried to illustrate in my last post. In an ideal world, diversity is a great thing for a metagame, but realistically, one look at post-diggersby stabmons and the current AAA ban-happy tournament was all you needed to put that notion aside. Large diversity in threats doesn't free up teamslots; often it requires you to run MORE BLANKET CHECKS to accomplish the same thing. Without Manaphy, the number of hole punchers you have to prepare for go way up because of the reduced restriction on offense, which leads to more restriction for teams that are running anything but HO. Does that make sense? This is actually what I have noticed on the ladder during the suspect test - building teams that aren't HO and stacked with sweepers and wallbreakers is very difficult to do because of the sheer number of threats you are forced to prepare for in order to not get swept or destroyed by SOMETHING.

This is the same issue with the post-diggersby stabmons meta, and how before its ban, stall was actually a viable playstyle. Post-ban, the offensive diversity was so high that stall became impossible to run, and a slew of bans were made, eventually leading to two transformations of the entire metagame. Now, Manaphy is obviously NOT Diggersby, but this just goes to show that more diversity isn't always a good thing. In my experience on the ladder, running teams that handle threats is much harder than it was before.

Again, I'm still neutral on this, but I feel like this is a possibility that most OMers don't really consider. The lesson has been showed before, so I don't really understand why it's still up for grabs.
I get what you're saying, more or less, but I don't really feel like Manaphy making the meta more narrow is necessarily the same thing as making it more stable. Within a match, Manaphy brings things down to really ugly 50/50-type situations that strongly favor Manaphy/Manaphy's player, where Manaphy's opponent messing up once can mean Manaphy's team auto-winning, and it seems really inappropriate to me to have the entire match hinge on not screwing up an easily screwed-up prediction against a single Pokemon. In a larger sense, various kinds of checks to such hole-punchers simply aren't viable with Manaphy around, or have to be held in reserve throughout the match so they're healthy enough to fight Manaphy in specific, and therefore aren't actually blanket-checking other threats because if you bring them in on those other threats it paves the way for Manaphy to sweep.

Offense itself is already constricted by -atespeed and Weavile existing. I'm not even really sure what Manaphy does to constrict offense, unless "murdering the entire enemy team in one go" falls under the definition of "constricting offense". It certainly doesn't check setup sweepers. Offense doesn't even seem to be the best style on the ladder, and indeed I've come to suspect that the historic complaints of -atespeed "ruining" the meta are offense-centric complaints -that is, that -atespeed severely impacts offense, to the point that there are people who think it isn't viable at all.

I meant that a lot of arguments seem to be "Is Absolite Manaphy (or Absolite + Sceptilite) broken?", but Absolite is obviously not it's only set. Even if Absolite + Sceptile is just barely not broken, Manaphy has other viable, but not as good sets that also have a small niche over it's other sets - Manectite has a substantial bulk increase, Blue Orb has a ton of power, even Houndoomite probably has a niche in destroying Red Orb checks - and Manaphy doesn't specifically need any one boost when each viable stone gives at least a speed or substantial power boost.
Ah yes, I see. I have indeed seen Manectite on occasion, and it's actually really good at finding a good opportunity to switch in/revenge in on Physical attackers and then Tail Glowing/lobbing a Scald/whatever, among other points being fairly competent at switching into -atespeeders. (It doesn't like being hit with Sacred Fire, of course, but Entei staying in is risking a super effective Scald, so eh)

Yeah, my view is that if Manaphy needs to go, it's Manaphy that needs to go, not Manaphy+x specific stone.
 
They're saying that, if someone is trying to revenge Blastoisinite Hoopa-U (or any given Hoopa), they'd usually opt for a physical attacker because of Hoopa's very nice special bulk.
Ooooh OK.
In general, nasty plot Hoopa, regardless of stone, will always be a good wallbreaker; life orb Hoopa would be a usable wallbreaker in this meta. That's just what Hoopa-Unbound does.
Yeah, I can agree with that.
I don't see Blastoisinite offering anything particularly worthwhile any other given Hoopa stone doesn't, but it does offer less in terms of speed compared to every other viable stone,
What I see in Blastoisinite is the extremely strong Dark Pulse it gives. It really did a number to my old team (probably cause I make such passive teams). Blastoisinite gives Hoopa-U the strongest special attacking move that it's possible to have damage-wise.
factoring in how hard Cameruptite/Sablenite's trick room sets destroy offensive teams in this meta once espeeders (or even just pixispeeders) are gone.
Yeah your right about Trick Room Hoopa-Us being more threatening against offensive teams.
I also am really confused why you mentioned Weavile - a mon who wins 1 v 1 with essentially every one of it's viable sets (252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) - as a target for Drain Punch; essentially no Hoopa-U set has switch ins anyways. I just don't get what makes this one worth using over any other set but I do see reasons I'd use other sets over this one.
I brought up Weavile for the possibility that you predict an obvious switch into it. I knew that it wouldn't beat it 1v1 unless the Hoopa-U was at full health.

Anyways gg, you've showed me the light. I take back what I said about Blastoisinite Hoopa-U being a better fit on more teams than Cameruptite Hoopa-U is. But for my team, Blastoisinite Hoopa-U is definitely the better fit, because I have a scarfed Ditto and no espeeders, so if Cameruptite Hoopa-U were to die while Trick Room was up, then I would surely lose momentum, seeing as I don't have anyway to safely stall out the TR. And I'm not gonna replace my Blastoisinite Hoopa-U for a Blastoisinite Hydreigon because Hoopa-U is able to break Blisseys.
 
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I brought up Weavile for the possibility that you predict an obvious switch into it. I knew that it wouldn't beat it 1v1 unless the Hoopa-U was at full health.
It doesn't beat Weavile 1v1 anyway unless you run Protect, and even then you risk being hit with Feint + Return. That said, Weavile can't switch in on anything ever lol. I guess it takes sub-100% from Dark Pulse and is immune to Psychic/Psyshock.
 
I don't know if anyone stated anything about this, but I think Blazikenite Ninjask deserves some recognition. It turns Ninjask's average 90 attack to a better 130 attack, and 20+ speed that makes it as fast as Speed Forme Deoxys. While it still doesn't have the best physical movepool, it gets Return and X-Scissor, which are still good enough. It can Baton Pass into a threatening sweeper, or it can attack by itself; it still isn't bulky, it has a Stealth Rock weakness (how this can be slightly mitigated by making it have an odd HP stat), and it isn't the best, but it's something, yes. If people have already discussed this, I'm about to sleep soon and don't have time to read the whole forum to see if this was already posted.

In conclusion, tyrogue for ubers Blazikenite Ninjask should be ranked, or at least talked about. I'm not the best when it comes to OMs, too, so expect me to miss out some things.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I don't know if anyone stated anything about this, but I think Blazikenite Ninjask deserves some recognition. It turns Ninjask's average 90 attack to a better 130 attack, and 20+ speed that makes it as fast as Speed Forme Deoxys. While it still doesn't have the best physical movepool, it gets Return and X-Scissor, which are still good enough. It can Baton Pass into a threatening sweeper, or it can attack by itself; it still isn't bulky, it has a Stealth Rock weakness (how this can be slightly mitigated by making it have an odd HP stat), and it isn't the best, but it's something, yes. If people have already discussed this, I'm about to sleep soon and don't have time to read the whole forum to see if this was already posted.

In conclusion, tyrogue for ubers Blazikenite Ninjask should be ranked, or at least talked about. I'm not the best when it comes to OMs, too, so expect me to miss out some things.
the main problems with ninjask, is that it suffers from "no-attack-nesia", "wet noodle syndrome", "why am i a bug flying type disease" and "no coverageitis" the problem with ninjask, is that blazikenite solves the"no-attack-nesia" part slightly...but the other three still stand. and its ability is literally the one ability it DOESN'T need as ninjask is already insanely fast.
 
Ok I admit this looks really weird at first, but bear with me.
(Original moveset underlined)

Milotic @ Sceptilite
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Dragon Tail / Dragon Pulse (make it Calm nature)
- Coil / Haze (option goes with dragon pulse) / Toxic

This thing hard counters almost every electric, fire, and water type. Altarianite ones can defeat it, but the only good user of it from those types is Entei/Arcanine. I first made it to stop Red Orb Raikou, because Weather Ball does hardly anything and thunderbolt only makes her stronger. Aura Sphere is just sad.
252+ SpA Red Orb Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic (Sceptilite) in Harsh Sunshine: 49-58 (12.4 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252+ SpA Red Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic (Sceptilite): 71-84 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Milotic (Sceptilite) Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Red Orb Raikou: 136-162 (42.3 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

+1 4 SpA Milotic (Sceptilite) Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Red Orb Raikou: 204-241 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 4 Atk Milotic (Sceptilite) Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Red Orb Raikou: 118-139 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's pretty obvious Milotic has ZERO problems setting up coils on Raikou, so try and get as many as possible before they switch out. Also you will basically get a free turn and Lightning Rod boost because it will try to Tbolt on the turn you MegaEvolve.

The last two moves come down to preference. Dragon Pulse is stronger and let's you keep your solid 106 speed stat, Dragon Tail phazes and will eventually get stronger of you coil enough. Haze is straightforward, stops boosting fairies and doesn't miss unlike Dtail, but Dtail works under Taunt, can break a sub, and coil patches up Milotic's lacking defense. Basic stuff, I'm just laying out the pros n cons.

This set isn't just for Raikou (the original purpose). It's a solid check for Manaphy (just keep Dtailing it away, burn with scald, lay out some hazards), Thundurus, Victini (Pidgeotite mostly, if Red Orb it still won't do much damage, coil, then Dtail around), Volcorona, Metagross, Jirachi, Zapdos, Magnezone, and more. Those are all highly ranked examples on the Viability rankings. Milotic can switch on the resist or immunity, and avoid 2HKOs from most of their coverage options while Recovering, scald burning, phazing and coiling.

I see it's ranked at B-, I haven't seen it suggested before in the thread but here is my experience with it. B- is probably a good fit for it anyway
 
Could you help me to improve my team ?

I usually lead with either Heatran@Latiasiate (Stealth Rock) or Ferrothorn@Blue Orb (Spikes/Thunderwave)
A special attacker : Raikou@Red Orb
3 physical priority abusers : Entei@Pinsirite, ZygardeCoil@Altarianite, Weavile@Glalilite
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Hot dog pizza pls spoiler that my phone isn't good enough to handle gifs :(

As for Manaphy itself, I don't really care if it stays or goes at this point, but I do think a lot of people just want it banned because they refuse to adapt to it. Yes its two main sets have different counters but that's true for a load of pokes (think Zards, Alt, Victini, hell even standard Manaphy).

...I kinda lost where I was going with this so here's a set I've been using to check Manaphy/Keldeo:

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 220 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock/Psychic (you can't break Blissey so I'm inclined to use Psychic to hit harder)
- Roost
- Filler (personally, Twave, though you can use defog/coverage if you want, Memento is cool too)

Latios is blessed with its stat spread. Every single EV here is used - the bulk ensures you can always take a +3 Ice Beam (Timid, no-one runs modest) from either Manaphy, and the SpA with a modest nature allows you to always OHKO back with Draco.

Calcs:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 306-362 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 342-403 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Obviously you need to keep rocks away but that's not as hard thanks to magic bounce stones, scrappy spin (excadrill can use Lopunnite pretty well), and defog still being usable.
 

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