Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[HailFall]

Honestly like I dont think gallade is a bad mon its just that i really cant think of a situation wherein i would actually consider using gallade instead of medicham (outside building specifically around gallade ofc). Like it does have niches but im really not sure those niches are valued enough in the current metagame to warrant a rise. Wisp gallade is fun for lando I guess but I would rather just actually kill it with ice punch. And at that point, why not just use medicham? Shadow sneak is non-stab priority which is painfully weak, and again, medi gets priority too. Medi also gets sub and bulk up so thats not exactly a valid reason to use it over medi. Taunt exists i suppose but its not putting in much work against stall anyways considering that it gets so thoroughly walled by mega sableye. Virtually the only reasons i can see to run gallade over medicham is that it outspeeds chomp+keld+terrak and it gets sd. Even sd isnt really the best thing in the world considering that medi doesnt need to boost in the first place to wallbreak.

 

[Leo3103]

Ok point taken with MGallade haha thanks for the knowledge dropping, for starters I completely forgot about MLopunny and I have one too and haven't been using it, and realistically yea he is just way better in damn near close to every way, I'm in the same boat as Hailfall that I don't think it's a bad mon, I love it's design and versatility but it's one of those situations where they made other stuff better... Damn Gamefreak, haha.

 

[ThatGuyWhoMashesMeteors]

I took a look at the viability rankings and saw that Latios is sitting in A+. And my question is: why?

The issue is that I find Latios proving to be dead weight, because he dies to enemy Pursuiters VERY quickly – now I've lost an ally. And with his death comes Keldeo's/Mega Charizard Y's/Breloom's/blablabla's wrath. The fact that these Pursuiters can be found everywhere in OU, in every nook and cranny, means that survival becomes a challenge. Compound this with Latios's vulnerability to physical priority, s###ty Psychic-typing, and how prepared OU is to deal with him, and I expected him to be in A-, maybe A. B+ in the worst case scenario.

Am I blind to something here? It's probable, considering I have taken an extended hiatus from PS!. If so, please point out to me why Latios is in A+ when I find his survival difficult in the current OU metagame. I was expecting a drop in viability, and I am surprised that hasn't come to pass. Why?

And I would appreciate it if someone can explain to me why 110 Speed is considered "good", especially considering that there are countless other threats which surpass 110 Speed (I hate Thundurus and his 125 SpA).

 

[Tramuntana]

I took a look at the viability rankings and saw that Latios is sitting in A+. And my question is: why?

The issue is that I find Latios proving to be dead weight, because he dies to enemy Pursuiters VERY quickly – now I've lost an ally. And with his death comes Keldeo's/Mega Charizard Y's/Breloom's/blablabla's wrath. The fact that these Pursuiters can be found everywhere in OU, in every nook and cranny, means that survival becomes a challenge. Compound this with Latios's vulnerability to physical priority, s###ty Psychic-typing, and how prepared OU is to deal with him, and I expected him to be in A-, maybe A. B+ in the worst case scenario.

Am I blind to something here? It's probable, considering I have taken an extended hiatus from PS!. If so, please point out to me why Latios is in A+ when I find his survival difficult in the current OU metagame. I was expecting a drop in viability, and I am surprised that hasn't come to pass. Why?

And I would appreciate it if someone can explain to me why 110 Speed is considered "good", especially considering that there are countless other threats which surpass 110 Speed (I hate Thundurus and his 125 SpA).

Maybe because Latios can play around the Pursuit users by just running Surf that 2HKOes most of them, with the added bonus that no one of them can OHKO back with Pursuit if he stays in. The choiced sets are as lethal as ever and the Defog set provides a decent hazard control while still keeping good wallbreaking power with a Life Orb. And that "s###ty Psychic typing" provides a STAB Psyshock that will leave a huge dent on Chansey and any fairy type you care to name including Mega Gardevoir who despite the natural resistance gets 2HKOed with stealth rock support.

EDIT: after testing a team that I commonly run with Mega Gallade, swapping it this time with Mega Loppuny, I support a up. The reason: He does not rely on High Jump Miss. That stupid thing misses half the time when I use it on anything that is remotely treathening. Arceus damn you, hax!

 

[Flygonial]

I took a look at the viability rankings and saw that Latios is sitting in A+. And my question is: why?

The issue is that I find Latios proving to be dead weight, because he dies to enemy Pursuiters VERY quickly – now I've lost an ally. And with his death comes Keldeo's/Mega Charizard Y's/Breloom's/blablabla's wrath. The fact that these Pursuiters can be found everywhere in OU, in every nook and cranny, means that survival becomes a challenge. Compound this with Latios's vulnerability to physical priority, s###ty Psychic-typing, and how prepared OU is to deal with him, and I expected him to be in A-, maybe A. B+ in the worst case scenario.

Am I blind to something here? It's probable, considering I have taken an extended hiatus from PS!. If so, please point out to me why Latios is in A+ when I find his survival difficult in the current OU metagame. I was expecting a drop in viability, and I am surprised that hasn't come to pass. Why?

And I would appreciate it if someone can explain to me why 110 Speed is considered "good", especially considering that there are countless other threats which surpass 110 Speed (I hate Thundurus and his 125 SpA).

Of course, the prevalence of Pursuit trapping works against Latios, but that's failing to acknowledge another recently introduced factor that also bolsters Latios' viability - Volcanion, as one of the better offensive checks to it. Furthermore, it can also play around many of its switch-ins, such as running Surf as SJMistery stated, along with HP Fire, EQ, CM to let it break pink mons and dent other switch-ins, etc.

 

[ThatGuyWhoMashesMeteors]

Maybe because Latios can play around the Pursuit users by just running Surf that 2HKOes most of them, with the added bonus that no one of them can OHKO back with Pursuit if he stays in. The choiced sets are as lethal as ever and the Defog set provides a decent hazard control while still keeping good wallbreaking power with a Life Orb. And that "s###ty Psychic typing" provides a STAB Psyshock that will leave a huge dent on Chansey and any fairy type you care to name including Mega Gardevoir who despite the natural resistance gets 2HKOed with stealth rock support.

Of course, the prevelance of Pursuit trapping works against Latios, but that's failing to acknowledge another recently introduced factor that also bolsters Latios' viabilty - Volcanioln, as one of the better offensive checks to it. Furthermore, it can also play around many of its switch-ins, such as running Surf as SJMistery stated, along with HP Fire, EQ, CM, etc.

Thanks for the insight. This raises the issue as to whether to dedicate moveslots to coverage, Defog, or Recover/Roost, but I guess that's what makes Latios balanced – even with those ever troublesome Pursuit users.

 

[Seth_]

I took a look at the viability rankings and saw that Latios is sitting in A+. And my question is: why?

The issue is that I find Latios proving to be dead weight, because he dies to enemy Pursuiters VERY quickly – now I've lost an ally. And with his death comes Keldeo's/Mega Charizard Y's/Breloom's/blablabla's wrath. The fact that these Pursuiters can be found everywhere in OU, in every nook and cranny, means that survival becomes a challenge. Compound this with Latios's vulnerability to physical priority, s###ty Psychic-typing, and how prepared OU is to deal with him, and I expected him to be in A-, maybe A. B+ in the worst case scenario.

Am I blind to something here? It's probable, considering I have taken an extended hiatus from PS!. If so, please point out to me why Latios is in A+ when I find his survival difficult in the current OU metagame. I was expecting a drop in viability, and I am surprised that hasn't come to pass. Why?

And I would appreciate it if someone can explain to me why 110 Speed is considered "good", especially considering that there are countless other threats which surpass 110 Speed (I hate Thundurus and his 125 SpA).

You are looking at it at wrong way.

Imagine how good latios is if most teams run pursuit to get rid off him. It checks multiple threads like keldeo, breloom, amoongus, terrakion, rotom, garchomp and many others. It has roost, defog, and is quite bulky with nice defensive typing. LO draco meteor is one of the strongest special attacks in OU. He don't have rocks weakness and is not affected by spikes.

Latios is OU major thread with his reliability and versatility. You can expect him in most teams like HO, BO and balance.

 

[tigers jaw]

Maybe because Latios can play around the Pursuit users by just running Surf that 2HKOes most of them, with the added bonus that no one of them can OHKO back with Pursuit if he stays in. The choiced sets are as lethal as ever and the Defog set provides a decent hazard control while still keeping good wallbreaking power with a Life Orb. And that "s###ty Psychic typing" provides a STAB Psyshock that will leave a huge dent on Chansey and any fairy type you care to name including Mega Gardevoir who despite the natural resistance gets 2HKOed with stealth rock support.

EDIT: after testing a team that I commonly run with Mega Gallade, swapping it this time with Mega Loppuny, I support a up. The reason: He does not rely on High Jump Miss. That stupid thing misses half the time when I use it on anything that is remotely treathening. Arceus damn you, hax!

Latios may have the ability to 2HKO Bisharp or Ttar with surf (which it can do with Draco against Bisharp, not to mention that against anything other than 0 bulk Ttar you will either never 2HKO or have to go for the roll), but that not only depends on prediction, it also entails a 50/50 against both of them. There's no simple way to "play around" them, other than guess and hope you're right. That isn't counter play. Idk Surf isn't a very good move for Latios to carry in my opinion.

Realistically the only thing Latios wants its Psychic typing for is Keldeo and fat Poison (Amoong, Venu) as it gives you a check for them, which are incredibly important Pokemon to be able to handle (although having Latios =/= beating these Pokemon). Psychic is an incredibly weak type in general that offers very few positive traits for too high a cost, in my opinion.

Of course, the prevelance of Pursuit trapping works against Latios, but that's failing to acknowledge another recently introduced factor that also bolsters Latios' viabilty - Volcanioln, as one of the better offensive checks to it. Furthermore, it can also play around many of its switch-ins, such as running Surf as SJMistery stated, along with HP Fire, EQ, CM to let it break pink mons and dent other switch-ins, etc.

Disagree with the idea that Latios is anywhere near an effective Volcanion check. Having a very good chance of being 2HKOed without rocks, or just being 2HKOed with rocks or burn is not solid check. I always find that if by some oversight during team-building, Latios is my only Volcanion check, I ALWAYS have a bad time. A decent opponent will recognise this weakness on your team and capitalise from it. Do not rely upon Latios to beat Volcanion.

Basically, Latios is A+ because it gives an offensive team a check to a few incredibly important Pokemon, a method of hazard removal that isn't total gash or dependant upon Sand, is a ground resist (unlike Starmie), whilst also having the virtue of hitting as hard as fuck. Along with this, the other half of Flygonial's post is sound, and one of the reasons Latios is ranked so highly. The wide array of skaky Latios resists in the tier allows for many different coverage moves/lures to be viable, which is an incredibly important form of team support, especially considering the span that Latios has for potential lures. By this I mean, it doesn't just lure Heatran with EQ for things like Talon or Clef or Mega Scizor, it also has the potential to lure Clef for shit that hates that, or Ferro, once again, for shit that hates that, or... These are Pokemon that have very little overlap in what they're effective against.

What all this means is that no matter the team, Latios, be it Defog 3 attacks or Roost three Attacks or Defog+Roost or CM, is pretty much going to add to the overall strength of said team, by the utility it brings and offensive pressure it applies thanks to supernuke Draco.

 

[HailFall]

So uh I have a nom

Zygarde C+ -> C

Where do I even start with this mon :/ Zygarde has a lot of issues to put it lightly. Its most common, and imo by far most viable, set is dragon dance which is very mediocre and simply outdone by other pokemon in the tier.

As a dragon dancer, zygarde's niches over dnite are laughably small. Dnite boasts a noticeably better attack stat than zygarde, along with an ability that's actually useful. Multiscale gives dnite a multitude of setup opportunities zygarde could only dream of effectively doubling dnites bulk while it's at max health. In fact the only reasons I can think of that you would EVER want to use dd zygarde over dd dnite are that zygarde isn't rocks weak (at the expense of being spikes vulnerable), is immune to twave (dnite usually runs lum anyways though and espeed beats thundy who try to get off prankster twave), and that zygarde gets stab eq (dnite gets this too however, even if its not stab).

I cant really think of a single reason zygarde should be ranked the same as mons like omastar, a DEADLY wallbreaker in rain, or lucario who is near unwallable and an excellent cleaner. Zygarde is much more on the level of pokemon like mpidgeot who are largely outclassed but still manage to maintain some niche however small that may be.

 

[Redolent]

So uh I have a nom

Zygarde C+ -> C

Where do I even start with this mon :/ Zygarde has a lot of issues to put it lightly. Its most common, and imo by far most viable, set is dragon dance which is very mediocre and simply outdone by other pokemon in the tier.

As a dragon dancer, zygarde's niches over dnite are laughably small. Dnite boasts a noticeably better attack stat than zygarde, along with an ability that's actually useful. Multiscale gives dnite a multitude of setup opportunities zygarde could only dream of effectively doubling dnites bulk while it's at max health. In fact the only reasons I can think of that you would EVER want to use dd zygarde over dd dnite are that zygarde isn't rocks weak (at the expense of being spikes vulnerable), is immune to twave (dnite usually runs lum anyways though and espeed beats thundy who try to get off prankster twave), and that zygarde gets stab eq (dnite gets this too however, even if its not stab).

I cant really think of a single reason zygarde should be ranked the same as mons like omastar, a DEADLY wallbreaker in rain, or lucario who is near unwallable and an excellent cleaner. Zygarde is much more on the level of pokemon like mpidgeot who are largely outclassed but still manage to maintain some niche however small that may be.

I'm sure this seems uncontroversial enough to most but I'm 100% against this. Zygarde is one the most underrated DDers in the tier and has numerous advantages over Dragonite. People's tendency to underrate DD Zygarde relative to DDnite is one of my favourite examples of the fallibility of the hivemind. Let me address your points one by one (and everyone else who still believes that Zygarde sucks compared to Nite):

"Dnite has a better attack stat" - Zygarde's best item is Life Orb, while Dragonite's best item is Lum Berry. Dragonite wants to run Lum Berry almost always for a combination of not being crippled by using Outrage (one of its advantages over LO Zygarde) but also quite importantly for stopping the ever-common Thundurus from checking it with priority Thunder Wave (yes, Dragonite can threaten this with Extreme Speed but only if it isn't already locked into Outrage and only if you have Stealth Rock up [which you probably won't if you use Defog as your hazard removal because keeping rocks off is really important for Dragonite]). Zygarde is immune to Thunder Wave so it is usually much more useful to run Life Orb, which pushes its power above Dragonite's.

"Dnite's ability makes it way bulkier and way easier to set up" - it also makes it way more dependent on team support because Dragonite is significantly less able to set up than Zygarde if you cannot consistently keep their Stealth Rock off the field. We all know that sometimes it's just impossible to keep SR off, for example if their SR user happens to have a good matchup against your hazard removal. Zygarde resists SR and is significantly bulkier when Stealth Rock is up, while also still maintaining significant bulk when it isn't. Dragonite fears Landorus' Stone Edge while Zygarde resists it and also tanks Earthquake anyway. Zygarde is extremely bulky - compare its 108/122/95 defenses to Garchomp's 108/95/85 and you see how huge its natural bulk is.

You point out the Dragonite learns Earthquake too like the difference STAB makes isn't hugely significant, but it is. Zygarde having STAB on Eq means it can push past numerous EQ DDNite checks such as Azumarill, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, and Mega Altaria. It's also less easily lured into using Outrage by bulky ground-based Pokemon.

Furthermore Adamant Zygarde outspeeds Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny (and Mega Beedrill if Outrage-locked) at +1 so it can use its fully powered Earthquake against them and continue its sweep.

I actively prefer DD Zygarde over DD Dragonite in most cases for these reasons, it's badly underrated. I would use Fire Punch Dragonite over Zygarde if my team needed it, but probably never the Earthquake variant.

tl;dr the userbase here badly underestimates the strengths of Dragon Dance Zygarde compared to Dragonite. It has enough advantages over Nite that it can actually be considered similarly viable, not significantly less so. If anything, it should move up.

 

[Leo3103]

Just want to make a note about Pursuit trapping, depending on who you're playing, it doesn't always necessarily work, unless they're Choice sets, and if that's the case, you've got them screwed and have a 1-shot with a full TTar for the rest of the game (using TTar as the example here cuz that's who I use for removing psychic/Lati twins). You can't OHKO with pursuit at 90% and up and realistically you don't wanna be taking much damage cuz a weakened TTar for later on, you don't want the crack back basically. What I've found to be more reliable because ppl will attempt to play around Pursuit is to run Pursuit AND Crunch, so if they stay in, it's a one shot, if they switch and the guy isn't quicker, you've more than likely got a 2-shot with Crunch and still have a full TTar for later to eat those Latis. Not saying pursuit isn't relevant, because it really really is, but ppl have gotten smart and figured ways to play around it, just gotta predict if they're choice or not

 

[viol and bass]

I'm sure this seems uncontroversial enough to most but I'm 100% against this. Zygarde is one the most underrated DDers in the tier and has numerous advantages over Dragonite. People's tendency to underrate DD Zygarde relative to DDnite is one of my favourite examples of the fallibility of the hivemind. Let me address your points one by one (and everyone else who still believes that Zygarde sucks compared to Nite):

"Dnite has a better attack stat" - Zygarde's best item is Life Orb, while Dragonite's best item is Lum Berry. Dragonite wants to run Lum Berry almost always for a combination of not being crippled by using Outrage (one of its advantages over LO Zygarde) but also quite importantly for stopping the ever-common Thundurus from checking it with priority Thunder Wave (yes, Dragonite can threaten this with Extreme Speed but only if it isn't already locked into Outrage and only if you have Stealth Rock up [which you probably won't if you use Defog as your hazard removal because keeping rocks off is really important for Dragonite]). Zygarde is immune to Thunder Wave so it is usually much more useful to run Life Orb, which pushes its power above Dragonite's.

"Dnite's ability makes it way bulkier and way easier to set up" - it also makes it way more dependent on team support because Dragonite is significantly less able to set up than Zygarde if you cannot consistently keep their Stealth Rock off the field. We all know that sometimes it's just impossible to keep SR off, for example if their SR user happens to have a good matchup against your hazard removal. Zygarde resists SR and is significantly bulkier when Stealth Rock is up, while also still maintaining significant bulk when it isn't. Dragonite fears Landorus' Stone Edge while Zygarde resists it and also tanks Earthquake anyway. Zygarde is extremely bulky - compare its 108/122/95 defenses to Garchomp's 108/95/85 and you see how huge its natural bulk is.

You point out the Dragonite learns Earthquake too like the difference STAB makes isn't hugely significant, but it is. Zygarde having STAB on Eq means it can push past numerous EQ DDNite checks such as Azumarill, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, and Mega Altaria. It's also less easily lured into using Outrage by bulky ground-based Pokemon.

Furthermore Adamant Zygarde outspeeds Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny (and Mega Beedrill if Outrage-locked) at +1 so it can use its fully powered Earthquake against them and continue its sweep.

I actively prefer DD Zygarde over DD Dragonite in most cases for these reasons, it's badly underrated. I would use Fire Punch Dragonite over Zygarde if my team needed it, but probably never the Earthquake variant.

tl;dr the userbase here badly underestimates the strengths of Dragon Dance Zygarde compared to Dragonite. It has enough advantages over Nite that it can actually be considered similarly viable, not significantly less so. If anything, it should move up.

I think Zygarde in general is pretty roundly underestimated. But I'm gonna advocate for Zygarde's other good set, SubCoil. It has several recent metagame trends in its favor, namely the increased use of Stall, Balance, and Bulky Offense as well as the relative lack of electrics (although Zygarde isn't exactly cockblocked by these since it can easily eat an HP Ice). I'm not sure people realize just how bulky this thing is. Its bulk in terms of base stats is greater than Hippowdon's on both sides. So while its lack of recovery and shittier defensive typing don't lend themselves to purely defensive sets, and its offensive stats don't make it the most immediately threatening sweeper, its unique traits lend themselves pretty well to a SubCoil set. It can set up a sub on damn near anything and start to use Coil from there, while removing non-fairy unfavorable matchups with Dragon Tail (which, due to Zygarde's speed, outspeeds and eliminates the threat of opposing phazers). This allows Zygarde to single-handedly deal with almost literally everything on stall and many threats on balance and bulky offense.

Basically, anything defensive without super-effective coverage cannot break Zygarde's sub. Chansey can't with Seismic toss. Mega Sableye can't with Foul Play (nothing can with Knock Off). Slowbro / defensive Starmie / Quagsire / non-LO Manaphy can't with Scald (or Earthquake in Quag's case). Celebi, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth can't without HP ice. Rotom-w often can't with Hydro Pump, and is outsped and thus can't use Wisp. And once you use Coil, the list of things that can't break Zygarde's sub increases tremendously to include things like defensive lando and Ferrothorn. So when you're facing a bulky team, you will absolutely be able to find something to start setting up on. If they bring in a check that's not a fairy, use Dragon Tail, and odds are whatever comes in will not be able to break your sub. Use Coil. Rinse and repeat. As far as fairies are concerned, Magic Guard Clefable can be dealt with because Moonblast 3HKOes and Zygarde can set up a Coil or two and 2HKO it. Unaware Clef and Togekiss eat Zygarde alive, but they're not really very prevalent. Mega Gardevoir is a problem as well (although it usually doesn't OHKO even after rocks). But that's pretty much the extent of mons that serve as solid checks to Zygarde, especially due to Dragon Tail shenanigans.

Seriously people, try this set out on a team with some hazards and adequate measures to deal with fast offensive teams. You won't be disappointed. Given the effectiveness of SubCoil and the DD set others have talked about, I don't think Zygarde merits a drop by any means, and perhaps a rise since it sort of eats bulky teams for breakfast.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

What happened to Bisharp? The conversation points did not even list it. I thought people made some pretty strong arguments for him moving up and I saw a very low amount of people saying not to rise it to A.

Anyway lets be real here. If we move Garchomp and Sableye we're leading ourselves right back into the old thread and the bloated A+ tier. With Lando-t being dominant again I don't think Garchomp warrants a rise. Sableye maybe... As many mods have pointed out the mons in the A+ rank define the meta. Sure Garchomp may be used a lot but what does he define exactly? Lando-t wins SR setting and being a physical tank. He can't wall break as well as Tyranitar. As mentioned by some people before, if Garchomp is going to rise so should Heatran. They both are very splashable and can preform multiple roles and aren't the best at them but are very good at it nonetheless. However, When compared to mons in the A+ rank Heatran and Garchomp just don't stack up. The noms I am seeing are very similar to the noms made for Garchomp to S last summer in the old thread. "Its very splashable" "it can do so much" Yeah and? So can Lando-t, Garchomps direct competition. And Lando-t does it better.

Enough of Garchomp. Sableye I feel could make it to A+. It defines a play style and fits with a lot of other Pokemon in A+ but I don't feel its on par with the other megas. We need to stop making noms to A+. Its going ot get bloated if we keep this up. Save that rank for The top-notch mons, A can be for the really good stuff, everything but the best.

 

[Tramuntana]

I'm sure this seems uncontroversial enough to most but I'm 100% against this. Zygarde is one the most underrated DDers in the tier and has numerous advantages over Dragonite. People's tendency to underrate DD Zygarde relative to DDnite is one of my favourite examples of the fallibility of the hivemind. Let me address your points one by one (and everyone else who still believes that Zygarde sucks compared to Nite):

"Dnite has a better attack stat" - Zygarde's best item is Life Orb, while Dragonite's best item is Lum Berry. Dragonite wants to run Lum Berry almost always for a combination of not being crippled by using Outrage (one of its advantages over LO Zygarde) but also quite importantly for stopping the ever-common Thundurus from checking it with priority Thunder Wave (yes, Dragonite can threaten this with Extreme Speed but only if it isn't already locked into Outrage and only if you have Stealth Rock up [which you probably won't if you use Defog as your hazard removal because keeping rocks off is really important for Dragonite]). Zygarde is immune to Thunder Wave so it is usually much more useful to run Life Orb, which pushes its power above Dragonite's.

"Dnite's ability makes it way bulkier and way easier to set up" - it also makes it way more dependent on team support because Dragonite is significantly less able to set up than Zygarde if you cannot consistently keep their Stealth Rock off the field. We all know that sometimes it's just impossible to keep SR off, for example if their SR user happens to have a good matchup against your hazard removal. Zygarde resists SR and is significantly bulkier when Stealth Rock is up, while also still maintaining significant bulk when it isn't. Dragonite fears Landorus' Stone Edge while Zygarde resists it and also tanks Earthquake anyway. Zygarde is extremely bulky - compare its 108/122/95 defenses to Garchomp's 108/95/85 and you see how huge its natural bulk is.

You point out the Dragonite learns Earthquake too like the difference STAB makes isn't hugely significant, but it is. Zygarde having STAB on Eq means it can push past numerous EQ DDNite checks such as Azumarill, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, and Mega Altaria. It's also less easily lured into using Outrage by bulky ground-based Pokemon.

Furthermore Adamant Zygarde outspeeds Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny (and Mega Beedrill if Outrage-locked) at +1 so it can use its fully powered Earthquake against them and continue its sweep.

I actively prefer DD Zygarde over DD Dragonite in most cases for these reasons, it's badly underrated. I would use Fire Punch Dragonite over Zygarde if my team needed it, but probably never the Earthquake variant.

tl;dr the userbase here badly underestimates the strengths of Dragon Dance Zygarde compared to Dragonite.

Zygarde is quite cool against stall on paper. It MIGHT go up it the subcoil set proves reliable with the newest threats around, but I have big doubts for this. As an offensive DD user, both Dragonite and Zygarde get totally outclassed by the mega-dragons due to lack of power and speed, with Extremespeed being too weak with just one boost to break trough faster pokemon; that's outside the question and has been discussed to hell and back. Offensive DD Dragonite and Offensive DD Zygarde are not reliable.

Those two mons should be used more for a bulkier set, trying to stack multiple boosts THEN sweep. Using those guys to attack with just one boost is like trying to use Landorus-T without Earthquake, or Chansey without Eviolite. That's the reason Dragonite is unresonably low on the viability ranking, people misses the main advantage Dragonite has over any other Dragon Dancer: He can stack up multiple boosts with the help of Roost and his incredible bulk. Zygarde's worst problem is that he gets owned to hell and back by every bulky water type packing ice beam with the only exception of Empoleon.

And speaking of Empoleon, he or any other competent defogger can keep the rocks down. And if Dragonite switches on SR he gets TWO free turns: the turn the wall gets forced out due to being total setup bait, and the turn the opponent breaks Multiscale. PD the Lum Berry is intended to give Dragonite the chance to set up on walls that carry Toxic, Bulky Waters spamming Scald, and Heatran

 

[Redolent]

Zygarde is quite cool against stall on paper. It MIGHT go up it the subcoil set proves reliable with the newest threats around, but I have big doubts for this. As an offensive DD user, both Dragonite and Zygarde get totally outclassed by the mega-dragons due to lack of power and speed, with Extremespeed being too weak with just one boost to break trough faster pokemon; that's outside the question and has been discussed to hell and back. Offensive DD Dragonite and Offensive DD Zygarde are not reliable.

Those two mons should be used more for a bulkier set, trying to stack multiple boosts THEN sweep. Using those guys to attack with just one boost is like trying to use Landorus-T without Earthquake, or Chansey without Eviolite. That's the reason Dragonite is unresonably low on the viability ranking, people misses the main advantage Dragonite has over any other Dragon Dancer: He can stack up multiple boosts with the help of Roost and his incredible bulk. Zygarde's worst problem is that he gets owned to hell and back by every bulky water type packing ice beam with the only exception of Empoleon.

And speaking of Empoleon, he or any other competent defogger can keep the rocks down. And if Dragonite switches on SR he gets TWO free turns: the turn the wall gets forced out due to being total setup bait, and the turn the opponent breaks Multiscale. PD the Lum Berry is intended to give Dragonite the chance to set up on walls that carry Toxic, Bulky Waters spamming Scald, and Heatran

I'm not sure what bulky waters you're talking about as almost all the common water types I can think of can't counter LO Zygarde very reliably at all. Suicune and Alomomola don't really pack an ice move so they can be broken through, Volcanion and Empoleon get blown away, Rotom-W will be knocked back by Outrage, Azumarill and Keldeo are KO'd by Earthquake, Quagsire can be 2HKO'd by Life Orb Outrage. I can only really think of Slowbro and, while I can't really calc it as I'm on my phone, I doubt Bold Slowbro's Ice Beam would OHKO Zygarde and it wouldn't take the boosted Outrage well at all, the exception being Mega Slowbro.

"Extreme Speed is too weak against faster attackers" - well my first point is, what faster attackers? As I said +1 Zygarde sits just above Mega Beedrill's speed and that's with a neutral nature. Against something like Scarf Latios you might be right, but priority attackers like Weavile and Talonflame will go down to +1 E-speed after rocks, as will Thundurus.

"Other Mega DDers are faster and stronger" - again you really need to provide examples as this is clearly untrue for the ones I'm thinking of. Altaria, Tyranitar and Gyarados are all slower than Zygarde and probably weaker too as they have no Life Orb. Gyarados has to rely on 80 base power STAB moves which also relatively weakens it. Zard X, probably the most threatening DDer in OU is faster by just 5 base Speed and has the disadvantages of absolutely requiring hazard removal and taking a Mega slot. Also they aren't necessarily competing for a team slot with Zygarde as they actually complement each other pretty well by weakening or beating each other's checks.

I've never used Roost DDnite but yes it does sound like it would do better against slow bulky teams that rely on Scald and Toxic to deal damage, but that's not most teams, and even those teams still pack counters like Clefable. I'd consider using it over its other sets though. But that doesn't change the fact that Zygarde is a very strong Dragon Dancer that has the bulk to set up fairly easily and the damage output to be a significant threat.

 

[Tramuntana]

Okay, let's see the water types I meant:

Normal Slowbro
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 239-282 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 272-320 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with rocks and LO recoil, you can get KOed, and he somehow does not, he can pivot to a fairy to regenerate damage and possibly capitalize the confusion.

Suicune:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Can kill you with some prior damage, burn you, rest stall the confusion, or phaze you out depending on your tastes.

I was not counting Rotom, who lacks ice moves barring HPst Ice, but anyway he has a very good chance to survive and burn you.

252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Okay, I can give you that one. He with rocks he can get stomped, tough locking yourelf in Outrage always leads to trouble with Cleff around.

Saying that Talon and Weavile go down after rocks is like saying Shuckle goes down after Taunt lol. Thanks Captain Obvious. I was mostly thinking on the lati twins, Jirachi, and Ice Shard users like Mamoswine that only requires a little prior damage (read, Spikes) to kill:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 317-380 (88.5 - 106.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Compared power:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 382-450 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 318-375 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 292-344 (85.6 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 223-264 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As said, Charisuck wins, and Altaria, the other DD user I meant, is not far behind either. Plus from the two you mentioned, only Gyarados has a notable difference in damage, and that's discounting that none of those rely on a multi-turn move that can be easily taken advantage of with a proper steel-type or worse, a fairy type. There comes the difference: WHEN USING EQ as the spam attack, Zygarde is much weaker. When using Outrage, he defeats Altaria, at the cost of getting revenge killed instantly thereafter. Even those weak frail mons you mentioned can easily capitalize that.

And when I said "slow teams" I mean "teams lacking Ice Shard, Prankster Thunder Wave or Choice Band Talonflame with enough luck to get a timely crit", because with a good amonut of HP EVs not even rocks gives talon a chance to OHKO the dragon.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 223-264 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Now that I got to use the calculator with calm, I wonder why the rotom formes lack any precoded set and why the DD Zygarde set has Stone Edge instead of Extremespeed...

 

[bludz]

Offensive DD Altaria should be Jolly in this metagame always. Dragonite should not run 216 HP and CB Talonflame is not a relevant set. Ice Beam Slowbro is also extremely uncommon and Mamoswine should be Jolly as well. Note: Dnite can't OHKO Mamo at +1 without Outrage either and Icicle Crash OHKOs through Multiscale

Basically your wall of calls isn't really proving the point you want it to because these are not necessarily the relevant calculations. Furthermore I hope nobody is comparing Zygarde to ZardX anyway lol. If anything the comparison should be with Dragonite and Dragonite alone. Dragonite is certainly bulkier with Multiscale intact, doesn't need Outrage for STAB and has better coverage options, but please note that it's already 2 subranks above Zygarde.

Zygarde can afford Life Orb making it stronger, its inherently faster and has good secondary STAB as well as better bulk when hazards are in play. These are notable advantages and it doesn't deserve to drop

BTW the calc is outdated so be careful with that

 

[tigers jaw]

The problem with zygarde is it walled by too many things due to lack of coverage. It really needs thousand arrows.

I mean with all sweepers there are provisions taken by most teams to control damage/stop a sweep in its tracks. It's just an aspect of team building and the nature of singles that has to be accounted for and accepted.

Along with other sweepers, the idea of weaken checks, set up, sweep applies to Zygarde. I made a 2min team the other day featuring Orb SD Fire Fang Garchomp and DD Zygarde, and the old "overwhelm common checks and win" rational applied to everything else still holds true for Zygarde. I can accept that when compared to the Zard X or lolnite (I have a seething hatred for this Pokemon) it may have limited coverage, but this gameplan is universal amongst offensive teams for the most part. Not going to repeat what Bludz said but basically: it is ok where it is in my opinion. I was pleasantly surprised by its performance.

 

[Tramuntana]

Offensive DD Altaria should be Jolly in this metagame always. Dragonite should not run 216 HP and CB Talonflame is not a relevant set. Ice Beam Slowbro is also extremely uncommon and Mamoswine should be Jolly as well. Note: Dnite can't OHKO Mamo at +1 without Outrage either and Icicle Crash OHKOs through Multiscale

Basically your wall of calls isn't really proving the point you want it to because these are not necessarily the relevant calculations. Furthermore I hope nobody is comparing Zygarde to ZardX anyway lol. If anything the comparison should be with Dragonite and Dragonite alone. Dragonite is certainly bulkier with Multiscale intact, doesn't need Outrage for STAB and has better coverage options, but please note that it's already 2 subranks above Zygarde.

Zygarde can afford Life Orb making it stronger, its inherently faster and has good secondary STAB as well as better bulk when hazards are in play. These are notable advantages and it doesn't deserve to drop

BTW the calc is outdated so be careful with that

I know. In general ice moves are rare lately, so there is little option but to go for rare sets.
He is suggesting to put Zygarde on the same rank as Dragonite, and I was trying to explain why it should not.
It's hard to compare Zygarde to anything. He can be best described as a mashup of Garchomp and Dragonite that combines the two main disadvantages of each one:
Insuficcient speed and lack of Swords Dance to fully capitalize ExtremeSpeed from Dragonite.
Insuficcient coverage and special attack from Garchomp.
The problem to adequately rank him is that Dragonite is the only non-mega Dragon Dance sweeper that remains in OU, and he is so different to Zygarde in paper and in practice that any comparison is beyond useless, besides the fact that they share ExtremeSpeed+Dragon Dance.

Plus I totally disagree that Mamoswine should be Jolly. He is supposed to go against slow walls, and outspeeding offensive Timid Heatran and Timid Volcanion only matters if he somehow becomes your only response to them; while missing a good chance to break through Slowbro in two runs (he does about 40%, with rocks and one Regenerator round, next time he comes in he gets 2HKOed), the chance of 2HKOing Ferrothorn without loosing a lot of health by Superpower, the clean 2HKO on Mega-Sableye, the decent chance of 2HKO Quagsire after Stealth rock, and the nice chance to hax his way through Skarmory are just too good to pass up.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Uhm, actually i believe he was actually just saying it should stay where it is. Which I can agree with. It was just a side remark he thought it should rise, even then it wouldn't be the same rank as Dragonite. I don't know if I agree with B- but I most certainly agree it shouldn't drop. I won't beat a dead horse since everything has already been said, but it should most certainly remain C+. You're focusing on the negatives that it gets from that "mashup", but completely ignoring the positives it also has, which again, have already been stated. So long story short, it should remain C+, no one, from what i can tell, is asking for it to rise all the way to B.

 

[adamant excadrill]

I took a look at the viability rankings and saw that Latios is sitting in A+. And my question is: why?
Latios is one of the th

The issue is that I find Latios proving to be dad weight, because he dies to enemy Pursuiters VERY quickly – now I've lost an ally. And with his death comes Keldeo's/Mega Charizard Y's/Breloom's/blablabla's wrath. The fact that these Pursuiters can be found everywhere in OU, in every nook and cranny, means that survival becomes a challenge. Compound this with Latios's vulnerability to physical priority, s###ty Psychic-typing, and how prepared OU is to deal with him, and I expected him to be in A-, maybe A. B+ in the worst case scenario.

Am I blind to something here? It's probable, considering I have taken an extended hiatus from PS!. If so, please point out to me why Latios is in A+ when I find his survival difficult in the current OU metagame. I was expecting a drop in viability, and I am surprised that hasn't come to pass. Why?

And I would appreciate it if someone can explain to me why 110 Speed is considered "good", especially considering that there are countless other threats which surpass 110 Speed (I hate Thundurus and his 125 SpA).

Latios is A+ since its one if the most splashable mons in OU thanks for its good defensive typing and move pool being able to lure in and KO a lot of steel types and being able to switch into repeated water attacks. Another thing is that its one of the best forms of hazard removal OU has to offer and requires very little support. base 130 sp atk and good speed tier are also very good traits. Easily A+ worthy and saying that its bad because of pursuit is like saying that other mons weak to pursuit are awful and should be B+.

 

[TURBODERP]

Latios is A+ since its one if the most splashable mons in OU thanks for its good defensive typing and move pool being able to lure in and KO a lot of steel types and being able to switch into repeated water attacks. Another thing is that its one of the best forms of hazard removal OU has to offer and requires very little support. base 130 sp atk and good speed tier are also very good traits. Easily A+ worthy and saying that its bad because of pursuit is like saying that other mons weak to pursuit are awful and should be B+.

Okay most of this is true and Latios MOST DEFINITELY deserves A+ rank, but Dragon/Psychic is a mixed defensive typing at best IMO, weaknesses to Ice/Dragon/Fairy/Dark/Bug/Ghost are all fairly important and while resisting Keldeo's STAB is great, the weaknesses are prevalent.

 

[adamant excadrill]

Okay most of this is true and Latios MOST DEFINITELY deserves A+ rank, but Dragon/Psychic is a mixed defensive typing at best IMO, weaknesses to Ice/Dragon/Fairy/Dark/Bug/Ghost are all fairly important and while resisting Keldeo's STAB is great, the weaknesses are prevalent.

Dragon is an amazing defensive typing psychic is decent at best as a defensive typing. Latios is A+ since its one of the most splashable mons in ORAS OU as well as one of the best water resist with good or some what decent bulk. Its offensive presence makes it very viable too and hits hard as hell being hard to switch into as well and its coverage too helps

 

[kek123]

Why latios is A+ rank imo:
I would like to state the I thing latios is one of the best mons when it comes to offensive pokemon only coming second to keldeo this is my opinion I mean like orb draco does so much , I shouldn't really have to talk about latios offensive potential to much because it really good I can talk about it more if need but no I'm going to talk about things I that people have missed one every one is going to it can be pursuit trapped..... But it can really only be pursuit trapped be one mon in the tier being T-tar bisharp dies to two draco's so I really struggle to find the argument to that weavile dies to one draco scizor dies to HP fire and Mega metagross dies to two HP fires and pursuit doesnt kill if latios doesnt switch so its a 50/50 and even t-tat can struggle trapping latios since after rocks latios EQ two shots Band t-tar with 4 attack investment it an guaranteed two hit on banded t-tar 4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 161-190 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock latios literally can play around every pursuit trapper given the right set I admit you can run HP fire and EQ on latios so you will always run into trouble with

Latios defensive typing :

Dragon is an amazing defensive typing psychic is decent at best as a defensive typing. Latios is A+ since its one of the most splashable mons in ORAS OU as well as one of the best water resist with good or some what decent bulk. Its offensive presence makes it very viable too and hits hard as hell being hard to switch into as well and its coverage too helps

Ok latios typing isnt amazing it good not amazing in fact psychic is one of the worst defensive typing in the games being weak to dark typing and Bug typing isn't good mainly because it means things can come in and u-turn on it and pursuit trap it although I talked about how latios can deal with pursuit trapers it doest mean it likes to play against them and with u-turn it means it constantly giving momentum , but there are good things about his typing one of them being it wall the best offensive mon in the tier AKA keldeo and being resistant to volt-switch is very good to also thanks to good defensive typing it can defog on quite alot for example being to defog against one of the best offensive mons in the tier keldeo is an amazing quality over it typing is very good but weakness to Ice/Dragon/Fairy/Dark/Bug/Ghost like TURBODERP said is very much a hindrance to latios

ThatGuyWhoMashesMeteors you ask why 110 is a good speed tier well it becuase many pokemon fall just sort of it like keldeo and terrakion which make latios very good at revenge killing alot of the ou tier it also means that it out speeds thing like garchomp and speed tier with mega gross gengar and out speed base 100 and base 108 two very common speed tiers

sorry is this comment is a bit late I though id state something that I though were over looked / not answered when talking about latios

 

[adamant excadrill]

Why latios is A+ rank imo:
I would like to state the I thing latios is one of the best mons when it comes to offensive pokemon only coming second to keldeo this is my opinion I mean like orb draco does so much , I shouldn't really have to talk about latios offensive potential to much because it really good I can talk about it more if need but no I'm going to talk about things I that people have missed one every one is going to it can be pursuit trapped..... But it can really only be pursuit trapped be one mon in the tier being T-tar bisharp dies to two draco's so I really struggle to find the argument to that weavile dies to one draco scizor dies to HP fire and Mega metagross dies to two HP fires and pursuit doesnt kill if latios doesnt switch so its a 50/50 and even t-tat can struggle trapping latios since after rocks latios EQ two shots Band t-tar with 4 attack investment it an guaranteed two hit on banded t-tar 4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 161-190 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock latios literally can play around every pursuit trapper given the right set I admit you can run HP fire and EQ on latios so you will always run into trouble with

Latios defensive typing :

Ok latios typing isnt amazing it good not amazing in fact psychic is one of the worst defensive typing in the games being weak to dark typing and Bug typing isn't good mainly because it means things can come in and u-turn on it and pursuit trap it although I talked about how latios can deal with pursuit trapers it doest mean it likes to play against them and with u-turn it means it constantly giving momentum , but there are good things about his typing one of them being it wall the best offensive mon in the tier AKA keldeo and being resistant to volt-switch is very good to also thanks to good defensive typing it can defog on quite alot for example being to defog against one of the best offensive mons in the tier keldeo is an amazing quality over it typing is very good but weakness to Ice/Dragon/Fairy/Dark/Bug/Ghost like TURBODERP said is very much a hindrance to latios

ThatGuyWhoMashesMeteors you ask why 110 is a good speed tier well it becuase many pokemon fall just sort of it like keldeo and terrakion which make latios very good at revenge killing alot of the ou tier it also means that it out speeds thing like garchomp and speed tier with mega gross gengar and out speed base 100 and base 108 two very common speed tiers

sorry is this comment is a bit late I though id state something that I though were over looked / not answered when talking about latios

Lati twins aren't the best wall to kelseo. Icy wind and pursuit trappers with keldeo get rid of the lati twins. The best hard wall to keldeo is mega venusaur mega Latias (isn't easily trapped thanks to bulk recover t wave and even reflect type) and amoongus. All three of these mons aren't trapped by pursuit and have a great way of recovery and as well as amazing bulk over the lati twins