Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[ceal]

For all the people on the Mega Meta train: do you think it's the best Mega in A-? I think a major thing to consider here is whether it's better than (Mega) Alakazam or Latias. The other is whether it matches up to the Megas already in A. Meta trends aside, Lopunny is an extremely restricting mon for offense, Medicham is an issue all around, and Sableye is also very restricting. ZardX is kinda under the radar but it's not a mon you ever wanna give free turns, plus it counters Scizor which is pretty big. Is Metagross really on the same level as these others? Or is it just better than some A- mons like Pinsir and Gardevoir?

I'd definitely say Megazam is worse than Meta, while it's threatening to offense on the merit of its power and speed alone pursuit trappers are everywhere rn and Alakazam just kinda gets shit on by most of them, whereas Meta can at least stomach a hit from full and KO them back (Bish Weav and TTar all drop to Hammer). As for Lati, I'd say they're both a cut above the megas in A- and if I recall people were discussing Mega Lati rising to A before so it seems appropriate to consider them about equal. As for the already existing A mons: Lop generally outperforms it, Medi doesn't have much over Gross besides its potency as a nuke, I'd definitely consider it better than Sableye (it doesn't do as good a job of blocking rocks as it used to and it invites in fairies not named Azu), and it seems on par with Zard, both are powerful offensive threats with a good bit of defensive utility to boot. They obviously have differences, Zard X just being able to hit harder and outrun more shit via DD, while Gross has the better defensive typing and coverage options. While it might be considered one of the less potent options in A if it does rise, that shouldn't stop Meta from ascending to be with its brothers from the old thread.

 

[Gary]

I'd definitely say Megazam is worse than Meta, while it's threatening to offense on the merit of its power and speed alone pursuit trappers are everywhere rn and Alakazam just kinda gets shit on by most of them, whereas Meta can at least stomach a hit from full and KO them back (Bish Weav and TTar all drop to Hammer). As for Lati, I'd say they're both a cut above the megas in A- and if I recall people were discussing Mega Lati rising to A before so it seems appropriate to consider them about equal. As for the already existing A mons: Lop generally outperforms it, Medi doesn't have much over Gross besides its potency as a nuke, I'd definitely consider it better than Sableye (it doesn't do as good a job of blocking rocks as it used to and it invites in fairies not named Azu), and it seems on par with Zard, both are powerful offensive threats with a good bit of defensive utility to boot. They obviously have differences, Zard X just being able to hit harder and outrun more shit via DD, while Gross has the better defensive typing and coverage options. While it might be considered one of the less potent options in A if it does rise, that shouldn't stop Meta from ascending to be with its brothers from the old thread.

Okay saying that Mega Zam is struggling because of the prevalence of Pursuit is just wrong. The most common user of Pursuit right now is Tyranitar, which usually runs Pursuit on CB, Scarf, and Chople. Outside of Chople berry, Tyranitar fails to trap Mega Zam because Focus Blast just completely destroys it, and with prior damage it can even give Chople issues too. Weavile is also one of the more common Pursuiters, and it to is a terrible check to Mega Zam for the same reason, and Bisharp runs a HUGE risk so it's much safer to just click Sucker Punch. That leaves us with Mega Meta and AV Meta, one of which is actually good, while the other is very matchup dependent and pretty shitty outside of Pursuit. Mega Meta can only trap it if it's healthy enough, as a Shadow Ball can do upwards of 79% to it, and even then, Pursuit is only doing a max of 82% if it chooses to stay in and attack, so without prior damage even Mega Metagross can't trap it reliably.

So unless you're using Pursuit Mega Scizor, which is pretty good but not nearly as good as its SD sets, trapping Mega Zam is pretty fucking hard, and it's almost not worth potentially losing your T-tar or Mega Meta, because you have to keep them healthy enough and Mega Zam is often paired with Spikes. And if it already manages to get up a +1, might as well not even try. In the current meta I wouldn't run any other Zam set but CM because it lets it muscle through fat shit pretty easily while still fucking offense.

 

[ceal]

Okay saying that Mega Zam is struggling because of the prevalence of Pursuit is just wrong. The most common user of Pursuit right now is Tyranitar, which usually runs Pursuit on CB, Scarf, and Chople. Outside of Chople berry, Tyranitar fails to trap Mega Zam because Focus Blast just completely destroys it, and with prior damage it can even give Chople issues too. Weavile is also one of the more common Pursuiters, and it to is a terrible check to Mega Zam for the same reason, and Bisharp runs a HUGE risk so it's much safer to just click Sucker Punch. That leaves us with Mega Meta and AV Meta, one of which is actually good, while the other is very matchup dependent and pretty shitty outside of Pursuit. Mega Meta can only trap it if it's healthy enough, as a Shadow Ball can do upwards of 79% to it, and even then, Pursuit is only doing a max of 82% if it chooses to stay in and attack, so without prior damage even Mega Metagross can't trap it reliably.

So unless you're using Pursuit Mega Scizor, which is pretty good but not nearly as good as its SD sets, trapping Mega Zam is pretty fucking hard, and it's almost not worth potentially losing your T-tar or Mega Meta, because you have to keep them healthy enough and Mega Zam is often paired with Spikes. And if it already manages to get up a +1, might as well not even try. In the current meta I wouldn't run any other Zam set but CM because it lets it muscle through fat shit pretty easily while still fucking offense.

Apologies then, allow me to clarify. Zam gets shit on by most pursuit users if it misses focus blast. Yeah, you'll land the majority by chances of probability I suppose, but it's still focus blast. You miss, you get shit on. Not to mention the 50/50's with Sharp that you brought up.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

Apologies then, allow me to clarify. Zam gets shit on by most pursuit users if it misses focus blast. Yeah, you'll land the majority by chances of probability I suppose, but it's still focus blast. You miss, you get shit on. Not to mention the 50/50's with Sharp that you brought up.

And there's a 70& chance that it WON'T miss Focus Blast.

If Focus Blast had, lets say 40% accuracy then I would see your point, but it's not. Focus Blast still fucks over Pursuit trappers more than Pursuit trappers fucking over Megazam. Should Sceptile be unbanned from NU because Focus Blast has a 30% miss? Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[Martin]

I don't like the whole "Focus Miss" argument because the fact is that unless you are Chople you aren't gonna be trying to trap Alakazam in the first place. While the Bisharp point is true, the fact is that it almost never runs Pursuit nowadays, with SD being better in almost every way. Also accuracy is generally a really bad argument in general outside of something like Torn-T (and even then it's kinda crap), and I hate when I see arguments ride on it 'cause the fact is that you are more likely to hit than you are to miss--in this case, with a 7:3 ratio on average. The fact is that the accuracy is high enough for it to be safe to talk about a best case scenario for the user of the move (it hits), and it should be treated as such.

 

[zbr]

And there's a 70& chance that it WON'T miss Focus Blast.

If Focus Blast had, lets say 40% accuracy then I would see your point, but it's not.

rubbish. focus blast literally only has 0.1% accuracy. it's like a gamefreak thing. they hide the real accuracy values over fake values to make it seem like it has more accuracy but in real fact it doesnt. which is why we should all just use hp fighting instead.

on a side note, i don't think keldeo should go up to S rank, but i feel that malt should go down to B and thundy should go up to A. will give a more detailed explanation later.

 

[JTD783]

My thoughts on Keldeo are fairly simple: Yes, it's clearly one of the best Pokemon in the meta, and almost every team would improve by having it. That said, this also applies to every other A+ mon right now, and Keldeo, while excellent, is still not on Clefable's level. I think we should keep Keldeo at A+.

I've been playing around with Mega Altaria recently, and while it can be very good at times, the problem I'm noticing is its reliability. As a mega, there are plenty of other viable megas that put in work more consistently and are much less restricting to build around (as in needing less support to do their job). As such, I think it belongs in B instead of B+.

I don't have a strong opinion on Zapdos and Thundurus currently.

 

[Tramuntana]

Assault Vest Tyranitar has a chance of surviving Focus Blast tough, and Weavile can outspeed Alakazam, so the "Focus Blast deals with the trappers" is not foolproof even forgoing the accuracy issues. Alakazam should drop, Latios and Latias and even Jirachi are much better as fast offensive psychic types.

Hide

I have seen a curious tendency of Focus Blast, Scald and other things reliant on luck to be always unnaturally favorable to people carrying less-than-optimal teams. It's almost like the RNG tries to compensate the lack of skill with an extra dose of luck. I hope the ones responsible of the Showdown scripts will some day prove me wrong by showing the RNG setup to everyone of us to see.

It is hard to get good replays on ladder, but I have been Ditto on OU and despite being as gimmicky as Shedinja, I've found it to work surprisingly well on VoltTurns, as the ultimate scouting pokemon. Plus it can deter the opponent from sending a bulky set-up sweeper, a common weakness of VoltTurn teams. The main problem is that it increases the already prominent weakness to stall teams instead, tough it can be amazing against them if you catch a Knock Off, as that means you can PP stall the entire team with good prediction on switches. I think he deserves a D much like Shedinja, don't you?

It even became surprisingly effective against that stall team. Too bad Icicle Crash's accuracy decided to ruin my day.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389983212

 

[Garchomp for president]

.

Assault Vest Tyranitar has a chance of surviving Focus Blast tough, and Weavile can outspeed Alakazam, so the "Focus Blast deals with the trappers" is not foolproof even forgoing the accuracy issues. Alakazam should drop, Latios and Latias and even Jirachi are much better as fast offensive psychic types.

Hide

I have seen a curious tendency of Focus Blast, Scald and other things reliant on luck to be always unnaturally favorable to people carrying less-than-optimal teams. It's almost like the RNG tries to compensate the lack of skill with an extra dose of luck. I hope the ones responsible of the Showdown scripts will some day prove me wrong by showing the RNG setup to everyone of us to see.

It is hard to get good replays on ladder, but I have been Ditto on OU and despite being as gimmicky as Shedinja, I've found it to work surprisingly well on VoltTurns, as the ultimate scouting pokemon. Plus it can deter the opponent from sending a bulky set-up sweeper, a common weakness of VoltTurn teams. The main problem is that it increases the already prominent weakness to stall teams instead, tough it can be amazing against them if you catch a Knock Off, as that means you can PP stall the entire team with good prediction on switches. I think he deserves a D much like Shedinja, don't you?

It even became surprisingly effective against that stall team. Too bad Icicle Crash's accuracy decided to ruin my day.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389983212

AV T-Tar is garbage tho, its slow and weak. Also everyone runs Scald, Edge, and Focus Blast from the top level of play to the bottom ladder so I don't know what RNG your talking about.

Edit: Showdown is open source, so you can see the RNG scripts for yourself. Enjoy
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/blob/master/battle-engine.js

 

[Gary]

Assault Vest Tyranitar has a chance of surviving Focus Blast tough, and Weavile can outspeed Alakazam, so the "Focus Blast deals with the trappers" is not foolproof even forgoing the accuracy issues. Alakazam should drop, Latios and Latias and even Jirachi are much better as fast offensive psychic types.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389983212

We are talking about Mega Zam, not regular Zam, which does not get outsped by Weavile lol. And AV T-tar is complete trash so that's not a good argument against Mega Zam. Outside of Latios, nothing gives it competition as a "fast offensive Psychic-type", because it's one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, hits hard as fuck, and has the ability to cleave through offense as well as bulky offense with CM. Being the only Psychic-type in the tier that doesn't really mind Pursuit that much is huge for it.

 

[Glue]

Nominating Goodra C- --> C

In the current metagame Goodra likes to carry choice specs and from playing alot of ladder with specs goodra it does the job well, it checks common electric types, volcanion, serperior and mega charizard y. has a really nice offensive movepool to get around its foes from sludge wave to help it beat azumarill and some clefable variants and fire blast or flame thrower to get pass common steel types while either muddy water, earthquake or focus blast to handle pokemon such as heatran and tyranitar. It does not get outclassed by latias as a bulky attacking dragon type as goodra is not dark type weak which in the current metagame dark type moves and pokemon are very common. finally looking at C- rank and C rank I believe goodra can be in same the rank such entei, seismitoad and hawlucha and not in C- with magneton, chesnaught and hoopa which for me goodra should be higher ranked than these pokemon.

Also if you not convinced that goodra is not strong enough with specs here are some calcs

calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 370-436 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 328-388 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 339-400 (104.9 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thundurus A- --> A

I agree with Thundurus rising simply due to of how versatile Thundurus is, all it needs is thunderbolt, hp ice and a strong fighting coverage move then it can do what the hell it wants while being very effective, knock off + superpower combo helps it beat chansey while also being effecting against latios + gengar, nasty plot helps beating slow bulkier teams, while thunder wave helps stop incoming sweeps and faster pokemon and plenty other moves such as grass knot, taunt, focus blast, volt switch, etc and what ever the team needs thundurus can help cover the weakness up and looking at the pokemon around thundurus in A- Thundurus just holds up more and in A rank I believe its on the same level such as azumarill, talonflame and garchomp.

 

[BuzzkillAmpharos]

After playing a few games on the ladder and reading many arguments about Mega Metagross I have come to the conclusion that it should rise to A.

This thing is an offensive beast and has always been. Not to mention it has very good bulk to accompany a great movepool. I have also found this thing to be much better without Zen Headbutt. It can mold itself to your specific team. That's the beauty of Mega Metagross. Whatever your team needs it can provide. If it needs a revenge killer than Bullet Punch is perfect and it has so many other coverage options like Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, Hammer Arm, HP Fire, Pursuit, and Earthquake. This thing just is so good in the meta now.

Additionally, it can even run Rock Polish in order to absolutely decimate teams and make revenge killers like Weavile absolutely useless as it dies to Meteor Mash. Not to mention of the reasons it dropped was because of sand and Rock Polish completely negates the speed boost Excadrill gets. If it can set up the Rock Polish this thing can actually beat sand which something a lot of teams look for in this meta game. And the rock polish also can beat Rain with Grass Knot and Thunderpunch.

Overall Mega Metagross has the ability to break through many different teams and also molds onto teams very easily. It's Rock Polish set can turn previous weaknesses into advantages and completely flips the script of what was previously thought. With a great movepool and a great option to round out your team to cover some weaknesses it should rise to A.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Krookodile for C Rank

Krookodile is actually a really threatening monster in OU right now, having a surprising amount of speed when coupled with the Choice Scarf, outspeeding Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Manectric, Mega-Alakazam and Mega-Aerodactyl. Though Krookodile's base attack leaves something to be desired, Krookodile gets Moxie, giving it the ability to put a dent into the opponent or even clean up late game. I like to run Stealth Rocks and Pursuit for the other two moves for Krookodile, allowing it to be flexible and provide support for what the team needs. One of the problems however with Krookodile is its power however, failing to KO things that it should, such as bulky Latias, meaning that Krookodile needs a considerably worn down team to sweep if you plan to use Krookodile that way.

Replays

Krookodile cleans up late game for Mega-Pinsir to win the game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-388770182

I choke hard in the endgame, Krookodile would have swept had I stayed in

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389046463

 

[bludz]

Cleaned up a ton of stuff good lord

Reminder if you see someone post a 1 liner do not respond since that post should be deleted.

I have more stuff to say about knowing when to respond to stuff or how to respond to new posters (hint: if one person points them in the right direction, you don't all need to) but yeah this is not the place. That will come another time another place.

 

[Avant Heim]

Hydreigon for B rank:Very good Wallbreaker,his only hard counter is azumarill.Very good imunnity to ground types thanks to levitate and a imunnity to psychic.Has flash canoon to hit the faries, dark pulse to hit jirachi,latais,slowbro and mega metagross, earth power and superpower to hit heatran(a very commum in this meta)and fire blast for extra coverage.Many teams aren't prepared for this mon,therefore losing to him.With all being said,it's easy to see why hydreigon is decent in this meta,and i definitely can see this mon in B rank

 

[HailFall]

A -> A+: Agree
Tran is definitely one of the most splashable pokemon in OU and its great typing turns it into an incredible blanket check to a massive range of threats. It has several roles it preforms very effectively, and is just a great all around pokemon. Definitely not something I think should have dropped from A+ in the first place considering just how amazing it is at role compression. Has tons of options and the sets can be changed and tailored to fit a team's needs. Definitely what i see as an A+ mon.

A- -> A: Agree
Bish definitely stands out in A- and barring thundurus, imo is by far the best thing there. Its absolutely insane after a SD and its combination of a good STAB combo and powerful priority make it a very threatening mon to face. Even its supposed counters like Keldeo are worn down incredibly fast and can be put in range of a +2 sucker with ease. Nothing really likes switching into Bish due to its combination of good power and access to STAB Knock Off. Its not an easy mon to revenge kill either as +2 Sucker Punch really stings. I really dont think its fair to say Bish is worse than stuff like Slowbro and Garchomp, and I think they should all be equally ranked.

Krookodile for C Rank

Krookodile is actually a really threatening monster in OU right now, having a surprising amount of speed when coupled with the Choice Scarf, outspeeding Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Manectric, Mega-Alakazam and Mega-Aerodactyl. Though Krookodile's base attack leaves something to be desired, Krookodile gets Moxie, giving it the ability to put a dent into the opponent or even clean up late game. I like to run Stealth Rocks and Pursuit for the other two moves for Krookodile, allowing it to be flexible and provide support for what the team needs. One of the problems however with Krookodile is its power however, failing to KO things that it should, such as bulky Latias, meaning that Krookodile needs a considerably worn down team to sweep if you plan to use Krookodile that way.

Replays

Krookodile cleans up late game for Mega-Pinsir to win the game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-388770182

I choke hard in the endgame, Krookodile would have swept had I stayed in

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389046463

Unranked -> C: Disagree
Krookodile doesnt have much going for it honestly and I'm even hesitant to say it should be D rank. "It outspeeds mega alakazam with scarf" isnt really a good argument as so does any other mon at or above 84 base speed. Moxie, while nice, certainly isnt good enough for any mon that has it to immediately jump from unranked all the way up to C. The post that nommed this doesn't really do a good job of explaining how Krookodile has a valuble niche that puts it on par with other c rank mons. Krookodile has no shortage of stops in this metagame, including super common stuff like lando-t. There isnt really anything super convincing here to make me believe this mon is good at all, so yeah I don't think it should be ranked.

Hydreigon for B rank:Very good Wallbreaker,his only hard counter is azumarill.Very good imunnity to ground types thanks to levitate and a imunnity to psychic.Has flash canoon to hit the faries, dark pulse to hit jirachi,latais,slowbro and mega metagross, earth power and superpower to hit heatran(a very commum in this meta)and fire blast for extra coverage.Many teams aren't prepared for this mon,therefore losing to him.With all being said,it's easy to see why hydreigon is decent in this meta,and i definitely can see this mon in B rank

B- -> B: Disagree
Having a limited selection of counters doesn't necessarily make a mon good. Look at Crawdaunt, which has insane raw power and decent coverage to boot making it have no true counters: yes its a threatening wallbreaker but its poor speed and lack of utility against offensive teams is what holds it back. We know what coverage moves hydreigon gets, and that was taken into account when it was ranked; no point in listing it here. "It sweeps unprepared teams" applies to like every mon in the game so thats not a particularly good argument. I'm not totally opposed to hydra rising, but i would need to see a better argument before being convinced that it should.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Alright I want to talk about Heatran. I think we need to compare this thing to the mons in A and A+ before we get into rising this mon. I see Heatran on the level of things like Garchomp. It has very nice positives but some hindering flaws. Heatran has no reliable recovery. If this thing is the so called blanket check it is then its not gonna check all that shit without being at 30% 2 turns into the match. Its hard to be a wall and have no reliable recovery. Second point, its way too overvalued on how much offensive presence it has. If you're making this a blanket check its not having any offensive presence outside of lava plume and toxic. I've also heard people call this thing fast. Get real. Your average Lando-T tank build is out speeding Heatran with a faster tank build. The point I'm trying to make is that when you compare Heatran to mons in A+ it does not have the same advantages they do. Like I said its more on the level of stuff like Azumarill, Excadrill, and Garchomp. Good strengths but noticeable flaws that can be hard to patch up with a team. I can't see it being in the same rank as mons like Lando-T, Tyranitar and Keldeo.

 

[matthewc20090]

Zapdos to b- agree

Zapdos is honestly a great check to a lot of physical attackers. Being able to counter/check stuff like scizor slowbro and pinsir all in one mon while having speed and offensive pressure makes it far better than the mandibuzz, the mon zapdos was compared to. Static is also a great boon for it as despite losing defog, stuff like mega gross and medi are dealt with a lot easier. hp ice can be used in conbo with defog to beat the most common srers in the tier: chomp lando and skarm. It's not the best defogger but beating bisharp is also pretty cool for a defogger.

 

[HailFall]

C+ -> B-
Mega sceptile is actually insanely threatening right now with so much stuff like Ttar, Latis, Grounds, and fat Waters roaming the tier. This thing is an absolute menace for your standard bulky offense to face, and not even your precious steels are safe from this thing thanks to the fact that it runs hidden power fire and earthquake, making its pool of consistent switchins on bulky offense very limited. It has absolutely insane speed, only outpaced by mega zam aero and certain scarfers, and more power than you'd expect backing up those leaf storms. This is definitely a very solid mon right now (better than garb like thund-t and mega gallade at least) and the vrs should reflect this imo.

 

[Gary]

The banner is outdated as fuck. Hopefully we can get an artist to do a profesionally drawn one soon, but in the meantime, I think this will be suitable for now. It's supposed to look like a massive clusterfuck by the way, seeing how OU is massively inflated with threats. Hope it's enough to get us by for now.

 

[ceal]

Krookodile for C Rank

Krookodile is actually a really threatening monster in OU right now, having a surprising amount of speed when coupled with the Choice Scarf, outspeeding Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Manectric, Mega-Alakazam and Mega-Aerodactyl. Though Krookodile's base attack leaves something to be desired, Krookodile gets Moxie, giving it the ability to put a dent into the opponent or even clean up late game. I like to run Stealth Rocks and Pursuit for the other two moves for Krookodile, allowing it to be flexible and provide support for what the team needs. One of the problems however with Krookodile is its power however, failing to KO things that it should, such as bulky Latias, meaning that Krookodile needs a considerably worn down team to sweep if you plan to use Krookodile that way.

Replays

Krookodile cleans up late game for Mega-Pinsir to win the game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-388770182

I choke hard in the endgame, Krookodile would have swept had I stayed in

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389046463

I'll be honest dude, your post really didn't do much to convince me that Krook deserves a rise. The big thing imo that you failed to mention is how Krook stands out from other offensive grounds, other than the fact that it has moxie, which is only useful for cleaning late-game and for a thing that's meant to fit the role of a revenge killer it's not a huge bonus. The biggest thing it seems to have over something like Lando is a stab Knock Off which isn't much when Lando has the better defensive typing, an overall better ability, and the ability to pivot with U-turn.

Your replays don't say much either, you only have two replays and one you admitted yourself that you choked away the game in, and in the other your opponent played badly and so did you. Neither really showed me what a well-played Krook could accomplish against a good opponent, and I simply couldn't help but ask myself why I just couldn't replace Krook with Scarf Lando-T and get the same or better results (which is ironic because Jam built that team around Krook, not to mention he made it scarf rocks which is hideously heat). Overall I think you could definitely make good arguments for Krook to rise, but I couldn't find any here.

 

[Ajwf]

Krook's viability would have to be argued around it beating dark types, but in OU he doesn't have a dark outside TTar he beats well. When Hoopa was here, I liked an AV set to deal with it, but obviously not an issue right now. There is very little reason for krook offensively or defensively, unless you really think he helps you with bisharp.

 

[diminom]

Alright I want to talk about Heatran. I think we need to compare this thing to the mons in A and A+ before we get into rising this mon. I see Heatran on the level of things like Garchomp. It has very nice positives but some hindering flaws. Heatran has no reliable recovery. If this thing is the so called blanket check it is then its not gonna check all that shit without being at 30% 2 turns into the match. Its hard to be a wall and have no reliable recovery. Second point, its way too overvalued on how much offensive presence it has. If you're making this a blanket check its not having any offensive presence outside of lava plume and toxic. I've also heard people call this thing fast. Get real. Your average Lando-T tank build is out speeding Heatran with a faster tank build. The point I'm trying to make is that when you compare Heatran to mons in A+ it does not have the same advantages they do. Like I said its more on the level of stuff like Azumarill, Excadrill, and Garchomp. Good strengths but noticeable flaws that can be hard to patch up with a team. I can't see it being in the same rank as mons like Lando-T, Tyranitar and Keldeo.

Since when has Heatran only been useful as wall or a pokemon with an amazing offensive presence? Nobody is saying that, what Hailfall said was that it was a very versatile pokemon with many sets that it used effectively. Heatran is way more splashable than any of the other A pokemon (baring garchomp, which is slightly more splashable and a pokemon that many others have already said should rise). It has an amazing typing, meaning it can fit onto many Steel/Fairy/Dragon and Fire/Water/Grass cores. On top of that it also has many sets all of which it uses very effectively. Yeah sure the Utility Heatran does not have a reliable recovery but that doesn't mean jack shit when Heatran most likely x4 resists the hit that its switching in on. Also pokemon like Rotom-W don't have reliable recoveries and although rotom-w and defensive heatran are two completely different pokemon, basing your entire argument against this set for its lack of recovery, yet not explaining why the lack of recovery is so bad for Heatran and not these pokemon is stupid af. Especially considering you said

Its hard to be a wall and have no reliable recovery

.
By that argument Landorus-T would also be in A, however Landorus-T is not in A and won't be anytime soon because a lack of recovery doesn't make a wall instantly fall apart by turn 2. Don't get me wrong a lack of recovery is bad for a pokemon, but I feel you exaggerated the shit out of its lack of recovery and focused in on its main flaw without even acknowledging all it has to make up for it. By the way, comparing Garchomp to Heatran is misleading as hell considering the main reason why people hold back Garchomp from A+ is because of Landorus-T, while on the other hand Heatran faces almost no competition for what it does.

The second thing I would like to talk about is the offensive set. Bulky offense is incredibly common and it definitely one of the best playstyles in ORAS OU, and offensive tran fits this playstyle perfectly. Surprisingly just because people brand this as an offensive set, it still can blanket check much of the tier. It will still take hits from pokemon like Clefable, and Serperior just fine. It might not avoid the 2hko from things like Gengar's shadow ball or +2 mega zor knock off but it still will blanket check so many pokemon without its bulk just because of its amazing typing. As a result of this, Heatran does not need a good speed stat as much as you think. It's defenses combined with its SpA stat and stellar movepool (magma storm, lava plume, taunt, earth power, ancient power, flash cannon, stealth rock, etc) allows it to switch in on its resists and hit them hard back potentially even trapping them and killing them with toxic. Even the ability of Heatran is amazing, just having this thing in the back of your party is seriously going make your opponent question every fire move they make. Honestly, I do not know why Heatran is not in A+, the pokemon is exceptionally splashable, has an amazing typing, a great movepool, great defenses, faces little competition, requires little team support, and so much more.

Heatran should rise to A+.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

B+ to B/B- hell I'd even be OK with C+ but that's not happening

Starmie is good for one thing and one thing only: Rapid Spin. Seriously. Rapid Spin is literally the only reason why this thing is even OU in the first place. This thing has nice speed but it has garbage Special Attack which hinders it from doing its secondary job: All-Out Attacking. I mean, take a look at some other hazard removers in the tier. Excadrill is much more threatening with an ability that it can abuse and a much higher attack stat, Latias has Healing Wish, Scizor has much better bulk and a much better offensive presence coupled with a priority move, etc. I also really do NOT see it on par with the rest of B+. Also, did I mention that Tangrowth has risen and that nasty Pursuit weakness?

I swear Gen 7 better introduce some actually decent spinners

So yeah, Starmie sucks ass

 

[Alfalfa]

B+ to B/B- hell I'd even be OK with C+ but that's not happening

Starmie is good for one thing and one thing only: Rapid Spin. Seriously. Rapid Spin is literally the only reason why this thing is even OU in the first place. This thing has nice speed but it has garbage Special Attack which hinders it from doing its secondary job: All-Out Attacking. I mean, take a look at some other hazard removers in the tier. Excadrill is much more threatening with an ability that it can abuse and a much higher attack stat, Latias has Healing Wish, Scizor has much better bulk and a much better offensive presence coupled with a priority move, etc. I also really do NOT see it on par with the rest of B+. Also, did I mention that Tangrowth has risen and that nasty Pursuit weakness?

I swear Gen 7 better introduce some actually decent spinners

So yeah, Starmie sucks ass

Starmie's LO Hydro Pump, not factoring in Analytic, hits as hard as LO Torn-T's Hurricane (and don't cherry pick Torn-T's higher base special attack because LO Torn-T is usually mixed and still hits fairly hard):

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Talonflame has base 81 Attack and it still manages to manifest itself as an offensive threat. In addition, most of Starmie's damage output comes from Analytic; it seems useless with Starmie's high speed, but that is what people in the BW2 metagame thought until they realized that Analytic compounded well with Starmie's ability to force switches. Your points about Scizor and Excadrill are already taken into consideration, as they are in higher ranks than Starmie. Latias is only useful because of Healing Wish, otherwise Latios is a better choice (and even then, Latias still suffers greatly from opportunity cost because of how easy it is to take advantage of).

Also, unless Tangrowth is running Assault Vest (which it does not always run), it is not a safe switch-in to Starmie, as LO Ice Beam / Psychic will do a lot of damage to it. Starmie was also as high as A- rank months ago when Pursuit users like Weavile, Tyranitar, and Bisharp were running rampant (and they still are), so your point about Pursuit is moot.