-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Discussion: Choice Specs Infernape, Nasty Plot isn't always better
- Thread starter SNX7
- Start date
I'd go Nasty Plot over Choice Specs. because as soon as they switch something in you'd be forced to switch due to you being locked in with 1 attack that is either ineffective or just has dramatically low accuracy . Also Nasty Plot makes Infernape a better sweeper. In my opinion.
why agilipass to something that cant even switch attacks?
I was trying to figure out the same thing. lol.
I don't use choice items very much, I like flexibility over power alot of the time to be honest.
However, wouldn't it be a nice way to smash up a team if you tossed it in late game with an agilipass?
Hi, please shut the fuck up.
This set seems to have potential. Like you and the rest of Smogon (except Chris is me), I've never seen a Choice Specs Infernape and would likely be caught on the back-foot by it which is fortunate because you'll have a lot more success as long as the opponent doesn't know it's Specs'd. Heatran/Blissey wouldn't dare to switch into your Flamethrower for fear of being caught in Close Combat the next turn. Many Water types won't like to switch in either for fear of an incoming Grass Knot. Once the cat is out the bag, your prediction will have to be top-notch because all of Infernape's attacks are individually resisted/immuned by a lot of common Pokemon.
I'm all for a new idea but the problems for me here are,
Attacking power:
You're only really 1 hit ko'ing stuff that is 4x weak to the move you are using.. ( The dragons, Swampert etc ) And any experienced player wouldn't think about switching either of those pokemon in infernape since the standard set ohkos them easily anyway. I mean why would anyone bring a blissey in an infernape.
Reliability:
You have 2 moves that have an accuracy below 80%, Luck doesn't seem to be too appealing on a pokemon which relies on heavy hitting and leaving right after.
Rinse and Repeat:
The high point of choice specs pokemon are that they are easy to bring in, how do you plan on bringing this thing in over and over again? Its weak to some very common moves.You can bring him in once and do some damage ( Though you'll be losing many valuable hitpoints ) But not another time without getting ohkod.And even if they don't hit for super effective it can't take repeated abuse from moves it doesn't resist or even moves that it does resist.It also has no immunities.And to make matters worst, It doesn't resist stealth rock, Isn't immune to poison spikes and doesn't avoid spikes. ( Heatran resists stealth rock and is immune to poison, Salamence is immune to both spikes though hes weak to stealth rock )
Uniqueness:
Other pokemon are much better suited for choice specs for example: Heatran has an easy way of coming in thanks to immunitys and flash fire and a buttload of resistances, and strike back with that monster special attack, Salamence has great resistances and immunity to Earthquake and packs a STAB move capable of OHKOing many thing that are even neutral to it.
My Conclusion:
I'm not saying at all that infernape is a bad pokemon, Its one of the best. But i don't think using choice specs is the best way to use his talents. Hes much better suited off with nasty plot or even purely physical.The question isn't that he CAN use choice specs, The question is can he use it better than some of his fellow pokemon?Honestly i don't see anything here that salamence or heatran can't do better.
Attacking power:
You're only really 1 hit ko'ing stuff that is 4x weak to the move you are using.. ( The dragons, Swampert etc ) And any experienced player wouldn't think about switching either of those pokemon in infernape since the standard set ohkos them easily anyway. I mean why would anyone bring a blissey in an infernape.
Reliability:
You have 2 moves that have an accuracy below 80%, Luck doesn't seem to be too appealing on a pokemon which relies on heavy hitting and leaving right after.
Rinse and Repeat:
The high point of choice specs pokemon are that they are easy to bring in, how do you plan on bringing this thing in over and over again? Its weak to some very common moves.You can bring him in once and do some damage ( Though you'll be losing many valuable hitpoints ) But not another time without getting ohkod.And even if they don't hit for super effective it can't take repeated abuse from moves it doesn't resist or even moves that it does resist.It also has no immunities.And to make matters worst, It doesn't resist stealth rock, Isn't immune to poison spikes and doesn't avoid spikes. ( Heatran resists stealth rock and is immune to poison, Salamence is immune to both spikes though hes weak to stealth rock )
Uniqueness:
Other pokemon are much better suited for choice specs for example: Heatran has an easy way of coming in thanks to immunitys and flash fire and a buttload of resistances, and strike back with that monster special attack, Salamence has great resistances and immunity to Earthquake and packs a STAB move capable of OHKOing many thing that are even neutral to it.
My Conclusion:
I'm not saying at all that infernape is a bad pokemon, Its one of the best. But i don't think using choice specs is the best way to use his talents. Hes much better suited off with nasty plot or even purely physical.The question isn't that he CAN use choice specs, The question is can he use it better than some of his fellow pokemon?Honestly i don't see anything here that salamence or heatran can't do better.
The problem with Focus Blast on Infernape is quite simple. Close Combat is a 2hko on Blissey, as is Focus Blast...seems like a tie, right?
Wrong. By putting Focus Blast on Infernape, you are in actually putting yourself in a position to 3hko Blissey on average. How? Focus Blast only hits twice in a row 49% of the time. This means on average, you are going to 3hko Blissey, and most likely a lot more, as Blissey will be softboiling/wish + protecting while you try and hit.
Same deal with Snorlax. Focus Blast really serves no purpose here, because Close Combat does whatever Focus Blast can, just a lot more reliably. Sure, I guess ohko'ing Steelix and Regirock is impressive...but comon, that ohko still depends on a very leaky 70% accuracy.
Wrong. By putting Focus Blast on Infernape, you are in actually putting yourself in a position to 3hko Blissey on average. How? Focus Blast only hits twice in a row 49% of the time. This means on average, you are going to 3hko Blissey, and most likely a lot more, as Blissey will be softboiling/wish + protecting while you try and hit.
Same deal with Snorlax. Focus Blast really serves no purpose here, because Close Combat does whatever Focus Blast can, just a lot more reliably. Sure, I guess ohko'ing Steelix and Regirock is impressive...but comon, that ohko still depends on a very leaky 70% accuracy.
I assume you mean Focus Blast?
Could you provide some basic Overheat calcs please? This is really interesting, and worth running over a Mixape because you don't need to spend a turn Nasty Plotting, which Infernape probably won't get.
One of the advantages Focus Blast has over Close Combat, is when you misspredict, the damage outcome will most of the times be higher, with 252 SpA EVs and a Choice Specs.
And while you only have a 49% chance of 2HKOing Blissey, after the initial hit, Blissey is most of the times fleeing, and will think twice about the switch in.
And while you only have a 49% chance of 2HKOing Blissey, after the initial hit, Blissey is most of the times fleeing, and will think twice about the switch in.
This set has 2 advantages over Nasty Plot varients. 1.) It get's more attacking moves and thus better type coverage. 2.) It doesn't need a turn of setup. Even with Nasty Plot, you may only 2HKO the pokemon your opponent switches in while they OHKO you. With Choice Specs, you'll hit your opponents pokemon on the switch, and can hit them immediatly afterwards again, instead of Nasty Plot'ing while they just send in their counter.
Lot's of Choice pokemon don't OHKO a lot, but Specs Infernape does enough damage that thing's won't be able to survive another switch-in. Ton's of OHKO's aren't needed to run a choice pokemon successfully.
Yes, this has been pointed out many times. I only see one move with less than 80% accuracy though, and that's Focus Blast.
Heatran and Salamence are both extremely predictable with choice items, making them rather easy to counter. You're right, Infernape can't take repeated abuse, but neither can Salamence or Heatran. While their defenses and resists are better than Infernape's they can't come in more than a few times either. I see your point here but you act as if I'm just bringing Infernape in on random attacks.
I fail to see how any of that has to do with uniqueness? Besides, Heatran and Salamence are extremely common Choice Spec pokemon, hardly "unqiue" anymore. On the other hand, I've not seen one person besides myself use Choice Spec Infernape.
Can Salamence or Heatran 2HKO Blissey with a special attack? Can Salamence or Heatran outspeed Garchomp? The answer is no to both. I suggest trying this build out before passing it off as an inferior Salamence or Heatran.
Sure.
Besides Snorlax and Blissey, what else does Close Combat really damage more than Focus Blast? Your opponent isn't always going to switch in one of these pokemon, and Focus Blast will always do more damage to anything else that get's switched in assuming you mispredict.
I love the sprite. I definitly think Fire Blast and HP ice are better options (grass knot too). Overheat is overkill, and doesnt offer any extra ohkos. HP ice gives you way more coverage than hp electric. Those weak to electric are also hit hard by grass knot. HP ele and grass knot is overkill.
The main selling point of HP Electric would be to KO Gyarados and actually be able to do something of Tentacruel. It's a viable option since Infernape normally has trouble with those pokemon, which is why I included it.
meh cb ape does the job better. has CC+ FBlitz for extreme and ACCURATE power and U turn to ease choice prediction
Lot's of Choice pokemon don't OHKO a lot, but Specs Infernape does enough damage that thing's won't be able to survive another switch-in. Ton's of OHKO's aren't needed to run a choice pokemon successfully.
So do the other guys, and they don't roll over and die the second time you try to bring them in?
Yes, this has been pointed out many times. I only see one move with less than 80% accuracy though, and that's Focus Blast.
My bad, Though fire blast's acc is still too low.
Heatran and Salamence are both extremely predictable with choice items, making them rather easy to counter. You're right, Infernape can't take repeated abuse, but neither can Salamence or Heatran. While their defenses and resists are better than Infernape's they can't come in more than a few times either. I see your point here but you act as if I'm just bringing Infernape in on random attacks.
How else are you going to bring infernape in??.. I'm not saying they aren't predictable I'm just saying they can come in much easier than infernape.
I fail to see how any of that has to do with uniqueness? Besides, Heatran and Salamence are extremely common Choice Spec pokemon, hardly "unqiue" anymore. On the other hand, I've not seen one person besides myself use Choice Spec Infernape.
By unique i meant what can infernape do the others can't, which is only ohkoing blissey like 49% of the time ( Kinda ).Secondly thats not true, both salamence and heatran are also very unpredictable, you never know if its a mixmence a choice mence or a physical one, You can't tell if heatran is scarf'd choice'd or has explosion to blow up blissey.They're just as unpredictable as this infernape even though no one else uses it..
Can Salamence or Heatran 2HKO Blissey with a special attack? Can Salamence or Heatran outspeed Garchomp? The answer is no to both. I suggest trying this build out before passing it off as an inferior Salamence or Heatran.
If heatran comes in on a fire attack and uses choice specs fire blast it can easily 2ko blissey and he has a higher chance to do so too since fire blast has a higher acc than focus blast.Salamence can't 2ko blissey with a special attack but mixmence does with brick break.
Either way, The ability to 2ko blissey 49% of the time isn't exactly appealing.The ability to outspeed garchomp doesn't seem too appealing either, Especially since it can't come in on any form of garchomp, Heatran can come in on choice outrages and salamence on choice earthquakes and easily ohko back.
And these two things you pointed out infernape does easily with the normal nasty plot set anyway... Infact better cause it can ohko blissey AND garchomp without having to switch out?
So do the other guys, and they don't roll over and die the second time you try to bring them in?
Yes, this has been pointed out many times. I only see one move with less than 80% accuracy though, and that's Focus Blast.
My bad, Though fire blast's acc is still too low.
Heatran and Salamence are both extremely predictable with choice items, making them rather easy to counter. You're right, Infernape can't take repeated abuse, but neither can Salamence or Heatran. While their defenses and resists are better than Infernape's they can't come in more than a few times either. I see your point here but you act as if I'm just bringing Infernape in on random attacks.
How else are you going to bring infernape in??.. I'm not saying they aren't predictable I'm just saying they can come in much easier than infernape.
I fail to see how any of that has to do with uniqueness? Besides, Heatran and Salamence are extremely common Choice Spec pokemon, hardly "unqiue" anymore. On the other hand, I've not seen one person besides myself use Choice Spec Infernape.
By unique i meant what can infernape do the others can't, which is only ohkoing blissey like 49% of the time ( Kinda ).Secondly thats not true, both salamence and heatran are also very unpredictable, you never know if its a mixmence a choice mence or a physical one, You can't tell if heatran is scarf'd choice'd or has explosion to blow up blissey.They're just as unpredictable as this infernape even though no one else uses it..
Can Salamence or Heatran 2HKO Blissey with a special attack? Can Salamence or Heatran outspeed Garchomp? The answer is no to both. I suggest trying this build out before passing it off as an inferior Salamence or Heatran.
If heatran comes in on a fire attack and uses choice specs fire blast it can easily 2ko blissey and he has a higher chance to do so too since fire blast has a higher acc than focus blast.Salamence can't 2ko blissey with a special attack but mixmence does with brick break.
Either way, The ability to 2ko blissey 49% of the time isn't exactly appealing.The ability to outspeed garchomp doesn't seem too appealing either, Especially since it can't come in on any form of garchomp, Heatran can come in on choice outrages and salamence on choice earthquakes and easily ohko back.
And these two things you pointed out infernape does easily with the normal nasty plot set anyway... Infact better cause it can ohko blissey AND garchomp without having to switch out?
So... a specs poke is walled my blissey, suprise? i think not
It seems like the specs version and the npsweeper just do different things. Yours is meant to hit and run, while the sweeper waits until it can knock out everything after a nasty plot (or two). This might be useful, since half the time I nasty plot with my infernape something faster comes in (like scarfed pokes), and the specs version could just hit them hard and then run away afterwards.
People seem to think Darkrai's Dark Void will break OU, and that's only 80% accurate. You can also run Flamethrower if you like, it's 100% accurate.
Yes, they can come in more easily, but your post made it seem like you were saying Heatran and Salamence can keep coming in the entire battle while Infernape is going to get KO'd after just 1 switch-in.
Well, what can the others do that Infernape can't? Flash Fire is the only thing specs Heatran has over this set. Salamence has Draco Meteor. That's pretty much it. Infernape has access to Grass Knot and Focus Blast / Close Combat, which neither of the other 2 have.
First of all, Heatran only 2HKO's Blissey if it's running max special attack and Choice Specs. Second of all, we're talking about Specs builds, not mixed builds. Mixmence doesn't belong in this discussion at all. Finally, I don't see how Mixape OHKO's Garchomp since it doesn't carry HP Ice. And not all Mixape builds OHKO Blissey with Close Combat either, since the spread is normally 252 SpAtk / 232 Spd / 24 Atk. Infernape needs 128 Atk EV's with Life Orb (and a neutral nature) to OHKO Blissey with Close Combat.
And yes nardd, both builds do different things. I'm not trying to argue why this set is better than the Nasty Plot set though.
Hey, when did you start using this set? Because I've actually started using a Specsnape as follows:(direct copy and paste from Shoddy)
Infernape (
) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Overheat
I use it as a lead and it has been pretty effective. I have experimented with other leads, but so far this has been the best. I thought of this idea when I first came to Shoddy, about the start of December. I always lol'ed when Grass Knot ohko'ed unsuspecting Swamperts and Hippowdons who thought I wouldn't rape them. Same for HP Electric/Gyarados. Overheat is rape on a large scale, it once ohko'ed a Dusknoir. I forgot whether it was a crit. Close Combat...I chose it over Focus Blast because of the accuracy, and power against special walls. It rapes special walls who would otherwise screw Specsnape over. Actually, I have thought of using Focus Blast before, but I was too lazy to try it out lol. Maybe I'll go try it later. Yeah, you might be "WTF? Overheat? No FT/FB, HP Electric over HP Ice? Mild nature? 252/252/6? N00B!" But it actually works. Dragons always force a switch, and I personally think OHKOing completely unsuspecting Gyara's are better than OHKOing Salamences simply because nobody EVER runs HP Electric over HP Ice. Overheat>FT/FB any time because you're gonna switch. Basic Choice item philosophy: Hit and run.
I was so shocked when I saw this thread, as I thought I was the only one using Specsnape. I think I was the first to use it, ask kamikaen/holden, they fought me when I was using this. I had thought of posting this, but didn't because of laziness/thinking that I would be flamed for posting a retarded set.
Please don't take me as a noob with 29 posts who ripped off your set and claimed it as the originator. I am quite sure I was the first, and if I'm wrong, let me know when you started using this.
Infernape (
) @ Choice SpecsAbility: Blaze
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Overheat
I use it as a lead and it has been pretty effective. I have experimented with other leads, but so far this has been the best. I thought of this idea when I first came to Shoddy, about the start of December. I always lol'ed when Grass Knot ohko'ed unsuspecting Swamperts and Hippowdons who thought I wouldn't rape them. Same for HP Electric/Gyarados. Overheat is rape on a large scale, it once ohko'ed a Dusknoir. I forgot whether it was a crit. Close Combat...I chose it over Focus Blast because of the accuracy, and power against special walls. It rapes special walls who would otherwise screw Specsnape over. Actually, I have thought of using Focus Blast before, but I was too lazy to try it out lol. Maybe I'll go try it later. Yeah, you might be "WTF? Overheat? No FT/FB, HP Electric over HP Ice? Mild nature? 252/252/6? N00B!" But it actually works. Dragons always force a switch, and I personally think OHKOing completely unsuspecting Gyara's are better than OHKOing Salamences simply because nobody EVER runs HP Electric over HP Ice. Overheat>FT/FB any time because you're gonna switch. Basic Choice item philosophy: Hit and run.
I was so shocked when I saw this thread, as I thought I was the only one using Specsnape. I think I was the first to use it, ask kamikaen/holden, they fought me when I was using this. I had thought of posting this, but didn't because of laziness/thinking that I would be flamed for posting a retarded set.
Please don't take me as a noob with 29 posts who ripped off your set and claimed it as the originator. I am quite sure I was the first, and if I'm wrong, let me know when you started using this.
I think I'd run HP Ice and a stealth rocker. When Grass Knot can cover Gyara with stealth, the benefits of HP Ice are just too big to pass up imo.
I have both, but since I have an adequate Dragon counter, killing Gyara off the bat would be nice, instead of giving it a chance to DD and sweep my team.
Really the only infernapes out there are either orbed or choiced. If after the first hit you don't see recoil damage, then it's gonna be pretty obvious that it's got a choice item and it's just predicting from there because infernape's attacking type options are fairly predictable. fire and fighting attacks will nearly always be on there. Then the last two slots will contain any combination of grass/electric or ice if it's special, electric/rock if it's physical.
This set is more hit and run special sweeper like specsmence than the classic wall breaker sets. Therefore I can see why it's less popular and probably will never be as popular as the standard set. Specs sweepers are fairly common but wallbreakers are pretty rare. And it's wallbreakers that teams these days need.
This set is more hit and run special sweeper like specsmence than the classic wall breaker sets. Therefore I can see why it's less popular and probably will never be as popular as the standard set. Specs sweepers are fairly common but wallbreakers are pretty rare. And it's wallbreakers that teams these days need.