Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Smashburn]

yeah, but i was pointing out that like of course spdef Zapdos doesn't check kartana as well, you can say that about spdef lando too or other walls like toxapex that can run phys def, spdef, or mixed def sets, but i posted several calcs of Zapdos walling several specially attacking threats in OU as a supplement , and in fact Zapdos has comparable special bulk to land so it's not surprising it can check many of the same things. and you also mention many of the same threats i showed it can check or counter too.

I know, there was nothing wrong with the point being made. However, the differentiator comparing SpD Zapdos to SpD Lando is that Zapdos has recovery and a better defensive profile for certain physical attackers which it would much like to check otherwise. Landorus has different typing and room for tools that Zapdos doesn't, which is a large factor in how Landorus handles physical threats vs how Zapdos handles them even though they have similar bulk. I agree with your sentiment though. It's a SpD set, it isn't meant to handle physical threats as well as its Def set.

In most cases when using zapdos you would want another defogger even when running pdef, because zappy is so prone to losing its HDB.

True. I was thinking a little more on the side of role compression when I thought of that.

 

[Lord Xen III]

know, there was nothing wrong with the point being made. However, the differentiator comparing SpD Zapdos to SpD Lando is that Zapdos has recovery and a better defensive profile for certain physical attackers which it would much like to check otherwise. Landorus has different typing and room for tools that Zapdos doesn't, which is a large factor in how Landorus handles physical threats vs how Zapdos handles them even though they have similar bulk. I agree with your sentiment though. It's a SpD set, it isn't meant to handle physical threats as well as its Def set.

Yeah I get it now that he is more so asking about opportunity cost. Zapdos is like the only true counter to galarian zapdos , and is useful against grass spam and even things like urshifu but outside of gzapdos( and even that has other forms ofchecking it on a team ) there are lots of other answers to grass spam mons imo that it isn't such a big issue. You can probably run it with something like a buzzwole and then from there all teams need a way of dealing with galarian zapdos anyway so I'm sure it's feasible to include it and is worth some more experimentation. As you said many zapdos can run offensive sets so it's not like this zapdos not being able to properly check these physical threats is something new

 

[odt]

The problem is…

There are no long-term answers to Weavile. And before you say Buzzwole and Clef, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The issue is things that can tank a t-axel do not like Knock or losing their items (Fini, Tran). What can take a Knock Off isn’t fine with taking a T-Axel (Buzz, Clef). Not to mention Beat Up can 2HKO all but dark resists. Pex is the most reliable answer to it, but

A. Band Beat Up still 2HKOs Pex and forces it to switch out, making it an ez advantage for the team.

B. relies on Scald burns or Toxic to beat SD Weav.

Meaning if you don’t get that 30% chance, then Weav can simply set up another SD and wipe out your Pex. (Also because of Pressure, it also out-PPs Haze)

+4 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fini is not a reliable Weav check. It gets Knock’d and ends up getting chipped down like a m-fer.

Tran and Ferro are not long-term checks either. Especially since Tran has to also fend off Pult, Lele, Blace, etc. Meaning in a realistic scenario, it won’t be healthy enough to take a hit from Banded or +2 Weav. Ferro can punish T-axel very well, but it along with Tran also have to worry about Beat Up. Plus Ferro is almost never at full, meaning realistically Weavile is gonna pick up a kill.

Yes Band variants are vulnerable to rocks, but it isn’t like the tier doesn’t have reliable forms of hazard removal in Torn, Lando, and Corv who coincidentally can also bring Weav in safely via U-Turn. Yes it isn’t a sure fire solution, but it is a problem it has that became more manageable in the following generation. Even in the worst case scenario, a Band Weav at 75%, 50%, or 1% is still a Band Weav.

The worst part about dealing with Weav is that you have to take into account both Band and Boots. You also have to consider some possibilities like “oh look there is Weav and it set up SD as I bring in Ferro, I can take a hit and cripple it hard with….whoops it turned out to have Low Kick.” Or “My Buzz can check Weav but oh no it was actually Banded? ggs wp.” and I haven’t even mentioned LO which p much OHKOs the entire tier after a boost. Yes its super easy to chip, but you are likely gonna lose one or two pokemon before it goes down because of its speed tier + Ice Shard

It is true that many breakers have little to no long-term answers, but none of them are as fast as Weav. There are four unboosted mons in the whole tier that outspeed it (five if we are counting Torn vs Ada). Eleki isn’t common, and Pult is vulnerable to Ice Shard. (Torn also gets picked off by Ice Shard) So this leaves you with Koko, Zera and scarfers which are perfectly fine rkilers but Weav can always just come back and kill something else. As for the Kart comparison, Torn can switch into any one move and scare it off. +2 Kart isn’t gonna stay in and risk getting Heat Wave’d. This is why I mentioned speed. Teams don’t have this luxury against Weav. If you tried that with Koko/Zera, they lose their boots or worst case scenario, get hit by T-Axel and be put in Ice Shard range. Scarfers can’t safely switch for obvious reasons. What you are missing by comparing Weav to Kart is that there is not only a gap between 109 and 125 speed, but Weav doesn’t have to sacrifice a whole moveslot to beat a dedicated check. It is perfectly content with Kncok/T-Axel/Ice Shard, Low Kick is just an option to blank Tran/Ferro early game. For Kart its “Cool, you sloted Aerial Ace to OHKO Buzz. Do you wanna get walled by Tran/Ferro or do you want to get walled by Zapdos?”. Weav loses priority to rkill Chomp, but it isn’t too problematic if you simply pair it with Buzzwole who can check Chomp just fine.

Buzz does fine vs SD Weav as long as it isn’t that shitty offensive spread, but it still loses to Band variants. This means you have to pack multiple checks to it in order to not lose to it. Not to mention Weav can always be paired with FS to break through Buzz anyways. The same problem Urshifu had, it was either Buzzwole or bust. Lets not forget that the reason Buzzwole wasn’t the end all solution to Shifu was that Buzzwole is such a fucking momentum drainer. Which is why offensive variants popped up, so that it is less passive. Even with like 68HP/252Dfse/188Sped, it is still forced to Roost if it gets hit by T-Axel, cause otherwise it will get 2HKOd if Weav comes back in.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 68 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 120-144 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO

I don’t like the SD Weav and BU Zera comparison. Weavile doesn’t need its checks to be heavily crippled for it to start going apeshit. I also want to mention that giving Lando momentum then it is to give Buzz any. Fini is far more easy to wear down than Lando due to having to check multiple things at once. Also Zera’s 112 atk is not comparable to Weav’s 120. Especially since most Weav’s run Ada.

If the solution is to slap Buzz on a team or slot in Pex + dark resist, or run like three checks on a tethen there is a problem with Weavile. Ofc, its not as broken as Darkfu or Kyu, but it doesn’t have to be on their level to still have an unhealthy strangle on the metagame. To explain what I mean, ppl have complained about having trouble with Zapdos, Lele, Pult, and other strong special breakers. People want to slot in Glowking, SpD Pex, and others, but the issue is that teams that do well against Weavile have a hard time dealing with the rest of the meta. Its easy to assume that it relies on Beat Up to break past its checks, but it doesn’t fully rely on it. It just uses it to not worry about Flame Body or Iron Barbs. The most underrated aspect of Boots Weav is that it is perfectly capable of outlasting its checks. With the combination of Knock forcing Ferro and friends to lose their precious items and the fact that the rest with recovery either die to +2 T-axel, are momentum drainers, or are Pex. Band is dummy strong and Boots outlives those Fini Ferro/Tran teams who crumple after chip which is not difficult to do. Other boots users like Koko and Zera aren’t problematic since they aren’t as insanely strong as Weav, and they have enough checks/counters to keep them in check. Weavile even without Band still can truck a majority of its targets. Sorry for the long college essay but I just wanted to get my point across. A suspect test would help us determine if Weav is too unhealthy for the metagame, or if it is something like gen 5 Latios where we just have to deal with it.


And just so I’m not talking out of my ass, I have a couple of replays.

(My own gameplay)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
With Buzz and Ferro chipped, they can no longer check Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320
Band Weav casually 2HKOing Buzz.

(WCOP Qualifiers)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625377
Not a Weav showcase, but it shows how easy it is to cripple Fini in practice since it has to switch into things like Tran.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-624901
Even though Chiles lost, their Weavile was about to win the game, despite the unfortunate miss on turn 40. Also shows an example of Buzz being forced to Roost or be in 2HKO range of T-Axel like in turns 26-27.

(OURLT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1565680307-7lozrxo86fbalw09omio60dubx33y7ypw
In the finals of OURLT, Leavers had three checks to Weav including Scarf Shifu, but once Fini got Knock’d, Spookyz was ready to go off. 2HKOing both the Bish and Urshifu

Great post. I'd be kind of sad to see him go even though I don't use him much, character designs don't come much cooler than his in OU.
The way he impacts teambuilding for me is kind of nuts. I find myself using flatout weird sets in order to squeeze a check or two in and even then he's a constant worry.
I'm not sure if it will improve from here on out. If anything I feel like it's getting harder to deal with due to the increasing diversity of commonly used sets. I'd be all for a suspect test if I'm honest.

 

[Xenocide88]

Great post. I'd be kind of sad to see him go even though I don't use him much, character designs don't come much cooler than his in OU.
The way he impacts teambuilding for me is kind of nuts. I find myself using flatout weird sets in order to squeeze a check or two in and even then he's a constant worry.
I'm not sure if it will improve from here on out. If anything I feel like it's getting harder to deal with due to the increasing diversity of commonly used sets. I'd be all for a suspect test if I'm honest.

Call me crazy, but I'd almost rather see Magearna get a suspect to come back down as a potential check to Weavile than testing to force Weavile up. Part of me feels that the community is just being very reactionary to the new flavor set in Beat Up Band, and are vexed that a lot of the existing meta sets can only check it, and not outright counter it. I honestly think we just need more time for people to innovate answers to the current style of Weavile. I could see more Eject Button, Red Card, Yache/Colbur berry sets coming into meta prominence in response to Beat Up Band.

Maybe I just feel this way because I started competitive in gen 4 and was a big proponent of not banning Garchomp, and I'd rather see problems innovated and answered for as opposed to banning them out.

 

[Ian_Yo]

Call me crazy, but I'd almost rather see Magearna get a suspect to come back down as a potential check to Weavile than testing to force Weavile up. Part of me feels that the community is just being very reactionary to the new flavor set in Beat Up Band, and are vexed that a lot of the existing meta sets can only check it, and not outright counter it. I honestly think we just need more time for people to innovate answers to the current style of Weavile. I could see more Eject Button, Red Card, Yache/Colbur berry sets coming into meta prominence in response to Beat Up Band.

Maybe I just feel this way because I started competitive in gen 4 and was a big proponent of not banning Garchomp, and I'd rather see problems innovated and answered for as opposed to banning them out.

How do any of those answer band weavile, ejecting something out with red card is hardly a reliable answer especially if you take severe damage while doing so or scouting with eject button which is may scout a set and the move once which is nice ig but limited a lot and lose an item. And resist berries vs the Mon that has multihits as it's strongest moves is not going to work. There might be innovation left to answer weavile but there's time still including during the suspect period and personally I'm sceptical anything big will happen to stop weavile

Also please don't unban an Uber for this reason sure I could unban zama c to check it but it was banned for a reason how would that improve anything pretty flimsy excuse to unban a Mon that's already proved itself way too much.

 

[Lord Xen III]

nd I'd rather see problems innovated and answered for as opposed to banning them out.

in previous gens people prepared for Genesect+ dugtrio cores with Rest Talk Shed shell heatran. It was innovative and effective but obviously not a desirable adaption. I'm not saying weavile is anything like Genesect, but just highlighting how one needs to be careful with such logic. Similiarly, DPP Garchomp was a very powerful mon particularly with its SD set and yache berry, and at the time it also had access to Sand Veil, an ability which has since been banned for its uncompetitiveness so I'm not sure that that's the best example.

Colbur berry is something you can run on Slowbro and was pretty effective when it was just knock off you had to worry about, and i do run it still, but the issue is after rocks you still get ohkoed by most Banded Beat Up anyway, and just barely avoid the ohko in my experience assuming Slowbro is at full health and no rocks are up and you've managed to lure weavile in on it for most teams. but SD beatup is a different story as there is no chance against that, and im not sure what other mons you'd run colbur berry on. Colbur berry can be run on slowbro since the only other item it competes with usually are like rocky helmet and HDB which have their perks but bro can survive without them. But besides slowbro and suicide lead mew, i don't see what mons are gonna be wanting to lure weavile effectively.

Slowbro works as an effective lure because it walls weavile's ice stab already. so i really doubt this will be viable as a solution

Red card/eject button are momentary bandaids on the issue, nothing stops weavile from coming back in. eject button is nice for momentum but realistically is barely a short term solution to Weavile, let alone long term

 

[658Greninja]

Call me crazy, but I'd almost rather see Magearna get a suspect to come back down as a potential check to Weavile than testing to force Weavile up. Part of me feels that the community is just being very reactionary to the new flavor set in Beat Up Band, and are vexed that a lot of the existing meta sets can only check it, and not outright counter it. I honestly think we just need more time for people to innovate answers to the current style of Weavile. I could see more Eject Button, Red Card, Yache/Colbur berry sets coming into meta prominence in response to Beat Up Band.

Maybe I just feel this way because I started competitive in gen 4 and was a big proponent of not banning Garchomp, and I'd rather see problems innovated and answered for as opposed to banning them out.

Yeah no.

Not only will unbanning a broken mon won’t work, but it will ironically help Weavile. Mag softens up Ferro/Pex, scares out Clef/Buzz, and brings Weav in with broken 130 base power Specs boosted Volt Switches. The reason Gen 4 Latias and Gen 5 Drill were unbanned was because they weren’t broken and they helped with issues before their inclusion.

Band Weav doesn’t rly on Beat Up to break past checks like I said earlier, its just more unnecessary bs that lets to bypass Ferro/RH/Flame Body which makes it more painful. Even if Ferro chips it with Iron Barbs, you got a Ferro without lefties and it’ll do worse against Koko/Lele/Melm/Fini/etc.

This is the main issue with it. Teams have trouble with Weavile’s possie because they have to stack multiple checks to Weavile itself which most have no recovery and are tasked with fighting opposing threats.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

Call me crazy, but I'd almost rather see Magearna get a suspect to come back down as a potential check to Weavile than testing to force Weavile up. Part of me feels that the community is just being very reactionary to the new flavor set in Beat Up Band, and are vexed that a lot of the existing meta sets can only check it, and not outright counter it. I honestly think we just need more time for people to innovate answers to the current style of Weavile. I could see more Eject Button, Red Card, Yache/Colbur berry sets coming into meta prominence in response to Beat Up Band.

Maybe I just feel this way because I started competitive in gen 4 and was a big proponent of not banning Garchomp, and I'd rather see problems innovated and answered for as opposed to banning them out.

....Magearna? I feel like Weavile itself wrote this post

 

[blooclipse]

Call me crazy, but I'd almost rather see Magearna get a suspect to come back down as a potential check to Weavile than testing to force Weavile up.

I think i will temporarily call you crazy.
mage is not healthy for the meta, and if you think we should be bringing down mons from freaking UBERS to check the mon better, that's probably an indication that maybe we need a weav suspect test too. Yeah, innovating around things is cool, but forcing multiple checks on your team just to actually check it even before a game starts is unhealthy.

 

[odt]

....Magearna? I feel like Weavile itself wrote this post

lol reminds me of this classic

 

[clementinabroccolina]

lol reminds me of this classic

Lucky for Ferrothorn I actually agree with it... just this once though

 

[Eeveeto]

Bringing Magearna down is not the solution to Weavile, since the moment it got trick, it became broken with Specs alone, without even taking into account other 467478 sets. I often disagree with Suspects and Bans made ( see Urshifu,Spectrier, Pheromosa, Kyurem and especially Zygarde), but Magearna Ban was the most justified of all that happened after DLC2. Though despite the trillion posts telling otherwise, I still don't see any problems with Weavile.

In fact (though this shouldn't be used as argument for keeping it), I see Weavile as a positive presence in the Meta. Offense is a style that dominates, particularly the type of offense with some slow "bulky" pivots + fast pivots or revenge killers + wallbreakers. Weavile is often one of these breakers, but it isn't the most effective, so the type of teams that it ends up punishing the most.. is this same type of offense, while bulky teams fare better against it than vs Heatran, Kartana, SD Lando or other breakers. Therefore, Weavile ends up being a blessing and a curse for weatherless offense, giving more reasons to use either slow and bulky teams ( who stop Weavile quite easily, but struggle with Lele and Heatran) or weather offense (in which the offensive Mons often outspeed Weavile and have breaking potential too), which for me personally is a good influence. Again, being positive for the Meta isn't really a reason to keep it(though Lando is getting away 2 gens in a row using the same argument despite not having a reliable check for its miriad of sets), but I still don't see reasons to ban it either, at least not before Lele, Heatran, Melmetal, Garchomp, Mew (not saying all of those are broken,but I do see a greater case for each of them than I see for Weavile) and several other Mons and Moves (Knock, Rocks and Scald, looking at you).

 

[Xenocide88]

....Magearna? I feel like Weavile itself wrote this post

XD We do share physical resemblances. And I'm just spit balling ideas, nothing I proposed was intended to immediately be "Oh yeah that would work" but more along the lines of just trying to generate thought towards solving the problem instead of avoiding it with a ban. I myself have been including Buzzwole in more of my builds as a response to the rise of Weavile, but I also don't feel even a purely defensive set would be a counter, just a hard check, as he can easily get worn down having to check other threats.

Is there a way to get the Showdown calculator to work properly for Beat Up or am I just an idiot? I can manually enter the value after calculating, but I guess I was hoping for a more ease of use solution.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

XD We do share physical resemblances. And I'm just spit balling ideas, nothing I proposed was intended to immediately be "Oh yeah that would work" but more along the lines of just trying to generate thought towards solving the problem instead of avoiding it with a ban.

If the problem is that a mon is unhealthily straining teambuilding, the problem lies within the mon itself, not for everyone else to just contort themselves into trying to beat it, cause that's what's arguably happening with the plethora of special threats taking advantage of people prepping for Weavile and causing a bit of a USUM OU issue of games being decided by either a coinflip or at team preview

Whether or not it's actually "too much" right now is debatable because I don't wanna bait replies from people who think Garchomp and Melmetal are suspect worthy

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

causing a bit of a USUM OU issue of games being decided by either a coinflip or at team preview

I don't post much anymore and I don't intend to derail the thread at all by talking about a different gen, but what do you mean by this? I'm admittedly biased because SM OU is my favorite tier, but I think that it's misguided to make it seem like SM games are decided primarily by coinflips or matchup fishing. Sure, the general power level is very high due to things like Z moves, megas, and the pre-nerf terrains, so I understand feeling at times like the tier is "super charged," if that makes sense. However, SM is such an established tier that has been thoroughly explored (I remember ima telling Empo before that Ben Gay felt like pretty much everything in SM has been figured out, which I'm sure is hyperbole but Empo largely agreed with the sentiment) that pretty much all good teams have at least some counterplay to the more fishing playstyles like rain (although Manaphy can feel oppressive to certain common team structures, but that's just something I also heard Empo mention before and I tend to agree with him) or stall. I guess all I'm trying to get at is that I think that SM is a great tier that has settled in a pretty healthy place, at least for the time being. To me, SM is a wonderful mixture of allowing creativity in teambuilding and diversity of playstyle, while also giving players room to outplay their opponents or navigate in-game situations in varied ways. Once you get more familiar with the tier and use/build solid teams, the power level becomes more comfortable and you don't really get caught off-guard by unexpected sets or plays often. I guess you can say that about any tier but I sometimes see people complain about "random Z moves or Hidden Power blowing holes in their team," when learning the different matchups/sets and scouting for/playing around the "jankier" (I don't know if I agree with that term anyway, for what it's worth) things in the tier is really just a huge part of learning to play SM in itself. SM has always felt to me a little like the Project M of Pokemon tiers, although I'm not sure if that analogy will mean much to anyone else. If anyone feels so inclined, go watch some SM replays from SPL or what we'll (hopefully) see plenty of in the upcoming Tour playoffs; the top level playerbase of SM is still very strong and I feel like the largely consistent success exhibited by players like Empo, Welli0u, Punny, and Z0mog (amongst others) speaks to the health of the tier. Obviously I understand that any singular person doesn't have to enjoy a particular tier (DPP and RBY are my second and third favorite tiers, respectively, and I know that many people view both of those tiers as acquired tastes), but I just felt compelled to defend the tier that I love when it seemed like it was potentially being slandered lol. Anyway, like I said in the beginning, I don't want to detract from any SS discussion so I'll just leave this as a one-off post and let the thread get back to discussing Weavile.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I don't post much anymore and I don't intend to derail the thread at all by talking about a different gen, but what do you mean by this? I'm admittedly biased because SM OU is my favorite tier, but I think that it's misguided to make it seem like SM games are decided primarily by coinflips or matchup fishing. Sure, the general power level is very high due to things like Z moves, megas, and the pre-nerf terrains, so I understand feeling at times like the tier is "super charged," if that makes sense. However, SM is such an established tier that has been thoroughly explored (I remember ima telling Empo before that Ben Gay felt like pretty much everything in SM has been figured out, which I'm sure is hyperbole but Empo largely agreed with the sentiment) that pretty much all good teams have at least some counterplay to the more fishing playstyles like rain or stall. I guess all I'm trying to get at is that I think that SM is a great tier that has settled in a pretty healthy place, at least for the time being. To me, SM is a wonderful mixture of allowing creativity in teambuilding and diversity of playstyle, while also giving players room to outplay their opponents or navigate in-game situations in varied ways. Once you get more familiar with the tier and use/build solid teams, the power level becomes more comfortable and you don't really get caught off-guard by unexpected sets or plays often. I guess you can say that about any tier but I sometimes see people complain about "random Z moves or Hidden Power blowing holes in their team," when learning the different matchups/sets and scouting for/playing around the "jankier" (I don't know if I agree with that term anyway, for what it's worth) things in the tier is really just a huge part of learning to play SM in itself. SM has always felt to me a little like the Project M of Pokemon tiers, although I'm not sure if that analogy will mean much to anyone else. If anyone feels so inclined, go watch some SM replays from SPL or what we'll (hopefully) see plenty of in the upcoming Tour playoffs; the top level playerbase of SM is still very strong and I feel like the largely consistent success exhibited by players like Empo, Welli0u, Punny, and Z0mog (amongst others) speaks to the health of the tier. Obviously I understand that any singular person doesn't have to enjoy a particular tier (RBY is my second favorite tier after all and I know that many people view that as an acquired taste), but I just felt compelled to defend the tier that I love when it seemed like it was potentially being slandered lol. Anyway, like I said in the beginning, I don't want to detract from any SS discussion so I'll just leave this as a one-off post and let the thread get back to discussing Weavile.

No problem! Just a little hyperbole because I really disliked how matchup fishy it felt (and I still find Z-moves just fundamentally not fun for me to use) when I played but if it's since improved I'm very happy for the tier and its playerbase. I thank you for chiming in because it's for that same reason why I think people have some unfair preconceived notions about SSOU as well, so it's good to have some perspective since things are always shifting.

 

[Moyashi]

I often disagree with Suspects and Bans made ( see Urshifu,Spectrier, Pheromosa, Kyurem and especially Zygarde),

I'd like to know what kind of reason is possible to argue they weren't banworthy buuut that's not what I wanna talk about...

I see Weavile as a positive presence in the Meta.

I completely disagree. Weavile has had an overtly restrictive effect on team building for a while now and doesn't do much positive for the tier. Many of its defensive answers lack recovery and are often forced in early if it comes in, which results in them dropping their only source of recovery. This means teams cannot get away with one defensive answer as it will just end up overwhelmed. But these weavile check stacking teams end up worse vs other major threats.

Offense is a style that dominates, particularly the type of offense with some slow "bulky" pivots + fast pivots or revenge killers + wallbreakers. Weavile is often one of these breakers, but it isn't the most effective, so the type of teams that it ends up punishing the most.. is this same type of offense,

Thanks to the potency and spammability of its knock off I have to disagree here. Or rather, it's the most effective wallbreaker that also happens to enable other threats incredibly well. For example a Ferro or Heatran switching into Weavile will often lose their lefties and will have a much harder time checking threats like Lele. Which brings me to...

while bulky teams fare better against it than vs Heatran, Kartana, SD Lando or other breakers.

Bulky teams that fit enough counterplay to Weavile are often weak to big special threats. Lele I mentioned already but also Zapdos, and the increased popularity of Nidoking which rips those bulky teams apart like a part of a morning exercise routine. There's probably others I'm forgetting and if anyone wants to add feel free please.

Therefore, Weavile ends up being a blessing and a curse for weatherless offense, giving more reasons to use either slow and bulky teams ( who stop Weavile quite easily, but struggle with Lele and Heatran) or weather offense (in which the offensive Mons often outspeed Weavile and have breaking potential too),

Not... Really sure what this is supposed to mean? I mean weatherless offense is much more consistent than weather offense anyways. And yeah weather offense has a better match up vs Weavile but famously had inconsistent match ups vs the rest of the meta.

Again, being positive for the Meta isn't really a reason to keep it(though Lando is getting away 2 gens in a row using the same argument despite not having a reliable check for its miriad of sets),

...lando has never had any one set being broken,St alone in conjunction with each other. And each set has their own problems that balance out. SD lando is a slow breaker that is fairly frail and easily revenge killed. Rock polish sets are walled a bit too easily, double dance is HO specific mostly and honestly kinda meh. Especially in a meta like this.

at least not before Lele, Heatran, Melmetal, Garchomp, Mew (not saying all of those are broken,but I do see a greater case for each of them than I see for Weavile)

I can't understand what any of these have that make it more potentially banworthy than Weavile. Aside from Lele who is as good as it is right now in part due to Weavile.

and several other Mons and Moves (Knock, Rocks and Scald, looking at you

How about no thank you.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I'd like to know what kind of reason is possible to argue they weren't banworthy buuut that's not what I wanna talk about...

How about no thank you.

Yeah I feel like those moves are overtuned in more of a game design sense but in terms of their banworthiness in the actual meta the case for them is pretty shallow. That's where I think discussion can get pretty contentious though

 

[Endrism]

Again I will bring up something I've talked about before.
Being in support of a suspect test does not mean you want it banned on the spot.

I am in full support of a Weavile suspect test not because I want it banned asap, but because a suspect would throw all the attention on Weavile and give people a true chance to either find counterplay, or even flesh out Weavile even more to justify a ban. Weavile tiptoes the line as not only is it almost unwallable like Lele, but its speed tier is bonkers. If Weavile had Lele's speed tier this wouldn't even be a discussion as things like Kart, Blaceph, the Lati twins, Alotales, and Volcarona would all become an instant issue for Weavile, but because it outspeeds all of them it can Triple Axel Kart and the Latis, Knock the Latis, and Blaceph, and CB Beat up can blast through Volcarona and Alotales without them being able to respond without a scarf.

If it was JUST SD HDB Weavile I think it would be a beautiful A+ tier threat, but the problem is CB Beat Up. If Weavile gets in while all 6 pokemon are alive on their side, you just lose. Its a no-contact move so Ferrothorn becomes irrelevant, and the speed tier is so overwhelming that only things like Koko can truly fight against CB Weavile, but all Weavile needs to do is Beat Up Koko once on the swap, then the next time Koko can't swap in so something needs to be sacked. It's an absolutely ridiculous set thats really powerful.

The immense power, incredible offensive typing and 2 different sets that are both incredible viable makes Weavile hard to teambuild around and I think it deserves to be suspected.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I get that theorycraft doesn't have much of a place in the tiering policy but sometimes I do get a little worried that the meta would implode from a Weavile ban, even though I simultaneously think it's unhealthy and that I might be being a bit unreasonable. Ghosts losing 1 resist would make them even scarier since there's 1 less way to take advantage of the choice lock (though the effect might be somewhat negligible). I think a lot of the hesitance (possibly not just myself) might come from the fact that it's been a pretty long uphill battle for SSOU to get to a good spot and it's hard to see exactly what's "next" if it were to be banned, especially with the generation in its tail end since while metas still evolve, they of course slow down when they aren't the main generation. On a more biased note it's nice to have a main gen where Weavile stands out as a true top dog (though it's obv a lot more dangerous in BDSP than its usage would suggest, oddly enough) even though I think that's just not an argument at all and more of a tidbit lol

On the bright side for Weavile enjoyers, it's about the greatest honor for a regular mon to get banished for kicking OU's butt lol

Overall though, I support a suspect test at least

 

[658Greninja]

Bringing Magearna down is not the solution to Weavile, since the moment it got trick, it became broken with Specs alone, without even taking into account other 467478 sets. I often disagree with Suspects and Bans made ( see Urshifu,Spectrier, Pheromosa, Kyurem and especially Zygarde), but Magearna Ban was the most justified of all that happened after DLC2. Though despite the trillion posts telling otherwise, I still don't see any problems with Weavile.

In fact (though this shouldn't be used as argument for keeping it), I see Weavile as a positive presence in the Meta. Offense is a style that dominates, particularly the type of offense with some slow "bulky" pivots + fast pivots or revenge killers + wallbreakers. Weavile is often one of these breakers, but it isn't the most effective, so the type of teams that it ends up punishing the most.. is this same type of offense, while bulky teams fare better against it than vs Heatran, Kartana, SD Lando or other breakers. Therefore, Weavile ends up being a blessing and a curse for weatherless offense, giving more reasons to use either slow and bulky teams ( who stop Weavile quite easily, but struggle with Lele and Heatran) or weather offense (in which the offensive Mons often outspeed Weavile and have breaking potential too), which for me personally is a good influence. Again, being positive for the Meta isn't really a reason to keep it(though Lando is getting away 2 gens in a row using the same argument despite not having a reliable check for its miriad of sets), but I still don't see reasons to ban it either, at least not before Lele, Heatran, Melmetal, Garchomp, Mew (not saying all of those are broken,but I do see a greater case for each of them than I see for Weavile) and several other Mons and Moves (Knock, Rocks and Scald, looking at you).

I’m sorry but saying Darkfu, Zygarde, and fucking Mosa should’ve stayed in OU but then believes rocks are unhealthy in boots meta is rather questionable coming from a respectable top player. There are clear reasons why those mons were banned so I won’t go over that.

As for the argument about Weav fairing worse against fatter teams, I’d argue it does even better against those builds. SS is a very offensive metagame where there are so many strong breakers that it is better to try to out-offense the opponent than attempt to cover everything. Balance (and ofc Stall) is easier to pressure with strong breakers and fat pivots like the Slowtwins. This also means they are prone to losing momentum, which also means more switches for Weavile to break a hole. Balance teams are still good, but BO teams make it more difficult to bring Weav in because they inflict more pressure in a game. Which is the argument here.

“giving more reasons to use either slow and bulky teams ( who stop Weavile quite easily, but struggle with Lele and Heatran) or weather offense”

Boom. You just explained the main problem with Weav. It would be easier to check the likes of Lele, Pult, and Zap if Tran didn’t have to run physD to avoid getting OHKOd by +2 Knock, or Pex running a more mixed/spD spread if Weav wasn’t around to make SS such a mu fish.

SD Lando and Kart aren’t on the same level as Weav simply due to the speed difference. SD Lando is outsped by Lele/Urshifu/Chomp/etc. There is also the opportunity cost of having one worse check to Tran, Koko, Zera, and Pult, meaning you have to compensate using it. Weav is incredibly splashable due to being both speed control and a cleaner/breaker. Defensive Lando is splashable, SD Lando is not on Weav’s level. It also does have more sturdier things that can take a +2 EQ/SE and threaten it back then a Weav at +2. Already went on about SD Kart so lets move on.

The reason Lando wasn’t banned was cause offensive sets were slow enough and had enough checks to it for most teams to manage it fine. Plus defensive sets offer much more for a team. Especially since in Gen 8, Lando rarely runs any other set that isn’t Defensive or SD.

 

[Smashburn]

As an aside from the talk about why Weavile is bannable, from theory, what would happen if it WAS banned? What about the other threats of OU? As soon as I think about these my mind immediately goes to Dragapult. Weavile has been a large constraint, forcing Dragapult to run faster sets with less bulk and being weary of chip damage for fear of being picked off by Ice Shard. In this scenario, Dragapult will be much less concerned with this and can focus on being bulkier, flexible, and generally capable of stretching its influence as much as it can with a variety of sets. Some of which include: Timid Specs, Modest Specs, Jolly Band, Adamant Band, Jolly DD, Adamant DD, Bulky WP, Fast Screens, and miscellaneous others which I'm sure that up until this theoretical point, haven't been worth toying with. I can't entirely foretell the influence Dragapult would have for several reasons and I don't think it is wise to speculate too far, but I'm concerned about how Dragapult would impact a meta without Weavile.

 

[blooclipse]

Again I will bring up something I've talked about before.
Being in support of a suspect test does not mean you want it banned on the spot.

I am in full support of a Weavile suspect test not because I want it banned asap, but because a suspect would throw all the attention on Weavile and give people a true chance to either find counterplay, or even flesh out Weavile even more to justify a ban. Weavile tiptoes the line as not only is it almost unwallable like Lele, but its speed tier is bonkers. If Weavile had Lele's speed tier this wouldn't even be a discussion as things like Kart, Blaceph, the Lati twins, Alotales, and Volcarona would all become an instant issue for Weavile, but because it outspeeds all of them it can Triple Axel Kart and the Latis, Knock the Latis, and Blaceph, and CB Beat up can blast through Volcarona and Alotales without them being able to respond without a scarf.

If it was JUST SD HDB Weavile I think it would be a beautiful A+ tier threat, but the problem is CB Beat Up. If Weavile gets in while all 6 pokemon are alive on their side, you just lose. Its a no-contact move so Ferrothorn becomes irrelevant, and the speed tier is so overwhelming that only things like Koko can truly fight against CB Weavile, but all Weavile needs to do is Beat Up Koko once on the swap, then the next time Koko can't swap in so something needs to be sacked. It's an absolutely ridiculous set thats really powerful.

The immense power, incredible offensive typing and 2 different sets that are both incredible viable makes Weavile hard to teambuild around and I think it deserves to be suspected.

Exactly. I want a SUSPECT TEST. We never said we want it outright banned, we want a suspect to see how the community as a whole thinks about weavile.

 

[Lord Xen III]

As an aside from the talk about why Weavile is bannable, from theory, what would happen if it WAS banned? What about the other threats of OU? As soon as I think about these my mind immediately goes to Dragapult. Weavile has been a large constraint, forcing Dragapult to run faster sets with less bulk and being weary of chip damage for fear of being picked off by Ice Shard. In this scenario, Dragapult will be much less concerned with this and can focus on being bulkier, flexible, and generally capable of stretching its influence as much as it can with a variety of sets. Some of which include: Timid Specs, Modest Specs, Jolly Band, Adamant Band, Jolly DD, Adamant DD, Bulky WP, Fast Screens, and miscellaneous others which I'm sure that up until this theoretical point, haven't been worth toying with. I can't entirely foretell the influence Dragapult would have for several reasons and I don't think it is wise to speculate too far, but I'm concerned about how Dragapult would impact a meta without Weavile.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dragapult becomes an issue. Earlier this gen Dragapult already had some controversy behind it when the meta favoured bulky teams but since then the more offensive natured meta has kept it in check. And of course weavile is a large contributor to that.

 

[Endrism]

I wouldn't be surprised if Dragapult becomes an issue. Earlier this gen Dragapult already had some controversy behind it when the meta favoured bulky teams but since then the more offensive natured meta has kept it in check. And of course weavile is a large contributor to that.

Honestly I don't think that Pult would become an issue. Things like Clefable only need to invest a little bit into Special Defense, and with Weavile gone it would actually worry less about defense and I think would just be a very good Pult check. Things like SpDef Lando and AV Melm can already beat down Pult. Hydreigon basically forces Pult to use Draco Meteor which can be played around, and overall even with Specs 100 Special Attack just isn't enough to be a gamebreaking threat. Pult will absolutely stay a top threat with the threat of Weavile gone, but it won't be overwhelming I dont think.