I’m interested in seeing Garg and Chien-Pao will be even more oppressive than before. I didn’t follow the beginning of Galar super closely, but SV looks like it’s stuck in a loop if oppressive Pokémon (looking at Garg) popping after bans. Even though I was for having Tera in the new generation, I think it does add a fair amount to the unhealthy loop of oppressive Pokémon. Was Dynamax banned after a similar trend when SwSh was released or did it take more time?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Dyna was pretty cut and dry honeslty. I think Tera the problem long term, but short term the meta just lacks the wall breakers were used to seeing in OU (granted the walls got better)
Personally, I'm not worried about Chien-Pao; I really haven't had any issues handling it throughout Gen 9. However, Garganacl genuinely interests me. Its bulk, ability, great stats, and a workable movepool make me think it'll become a consistent top-five OU staple.
If anything, I think more people should be talking about Roaring Moon - that Pokemon scares me more than anything else in OU right now
Have you tried running a max def Great Tusk/Corvi? They can handle it pretty well with Body Press, and with Rocky Helmet you can chip it down easily. I don't know, Roaring Moon is good but it doesn't really scare me when I battle it. What really makes me shit my pants right now is fucking Dragapult, if you switch in with a physically bulky mon it ends up being Specs, and if you try to check it with a specially bulky mon it turns out it's Banded, and you get 2HKOd by Dragon Darts. A pain in the ass to deal with.
So the 3 bans I think benefits Chien-Pao a LOT (Chi-Yu ban specifically) and also Garg is now even harder to kill. Ceruledge should drop since its flash fire is more useless, and stuff like Scizor and Breloom who loses to Chi-Yu would be far better. Regarding ape ban IMO it nerfs Grimmsnarl's screens and Garg (to an extent) and now I'm confident H.Zoroark will not be OU when it releases unless ape gets unbanned (which it probably will). Cyclizar ban doesn't affect much but does buff ghost types a bit especially Dragapult
If anything, i'd argue the opposite. There are plenty of incredibly strong offensive mons right now, and defensive options need to both apply pressure (Toxic, Wisp, Salt Cure) and have reliable recovery to keep up with the onslaught of 120+ base attackers introduced in gens 8 and 9.
If you aren't capable of both, and aren't named Ting-Lu, you just aren't having a very good time right now. The fact that
represents the baseline of defensive viability might be more absurd than the fact that it has a worthy adversary in 
.
As short lived as Cyclizar’s presence in OU has been in reality, the length of that stay is still surprising considering it was on the radar since day one. I mean, Smogon’s had a BP Clause for quite a few years now, a strat that tiptoes this close to an outright no-no in competitive play having this long a leash was strange to me. Perhaps that’s because there were more pressingly broken mons that delayed this decision, and Cyclizar’s Shednanigans definitely had a hand in facilitating many a sweep by said culprits. Even though I didn’t agree, I’ve seen way more pro-Cyclizar sentiment than expected, and it was a pretty common opinion to feel that it wasn’t broken. Still, if for no other reason it’s interesting that it got the community to dig up a long dead phrase when talking about it: “Sub-pass.”
I would’ve been fine with just a Shed Tail ban but respect the counsel’s process in banning the mon, not the move. Passing a sub and switching in one move is ridiculous utility. Sure, a dedicated support mon may be somewhat matchup dependent, but Shed Tail + Regen + Sitrus makes what should be a relatively one-time use move pretty spammable, and it also possesses a high Speed stat as well as other fantastic utility options all in one set—this role is not something Orthworm can replicate with anywhere close to the same success. The problem is, though, I think in taking down the bike lizard we’ve also accidentally argued that the concept of Sub-passing is actually…manageable.
I’ll just cut it off at the head here before someone says it: no way in hell should BP chains be allowed in formats ever again. What I am saying is if a) we already have a clause in place that prevents passing stat boosts, b) it’s been established that Cyclizar was the problem and not Shed Tail, and c) Shed Tail is better than Sub + BP, is Sub-passing—or even dry passing—something that could be allowed in OU? I’m legitimately asking.
I don’t have an opinion on that, honestly. There are other relevant factors in actual application like HP stats, move distribution, opportunity cost and individual mon viability, and we are still in the pre-Home meta. However it’s fair to ask why this thing wasn’t shown the door with Flutter Mane two months ago if we have a clause that forbids the use of a “worse Shed Tail.” Was it just to spare tha gawd Orthworm, or do we as a community feel differently about this mechanic now?
In any case, I think it’s worth discussing further.
I would’ve been fine with just a Shed Tail ban but respect the counsel’s process in banning the mon, not the move. Passing a sub and switching in one move is ridiculous utility. Sure, a dedicated support mon may be somewhat matchup dependent, but Shed Tail + Regen + Sitrus makes what should be a relatively one-time use move pretty spammable, and it also possesses a high Speed stat as well as other fantastic utility options all in one set—this role is not something Orthworm can replicate with anywhere close to the same success. The problem is, though, I think in taking down the bike lizard we’ve also accidentally argued that the concept of Sub-passing is actually…manageable.
I’ll just cut it off at the head here before someone says it: no way in hell should BP chains be allowed in formats ever again. What I am saying is if a) we already have a clause in place that prevents passing stat boosts, b) it’s been established that Cyclizar was the problem and not Shed Tail, and c) Shed Tail is better than Sub + BP, is Sub-passing—or even dry passing—something that could be allowed in OU? I’m legitimately asking.
I don’t have an opinion on that, honestly. There are other relevant factors in actual application like HP stats, move distribution, opportunity cost and individual mon viability, and we are still in the pre-Home meta. However it’s fair to ask why this thing wasn’t shown the door with Flutter Mane two months ago if we have a clause that forbids the use of a “worse Shed Tail.” Was it just to spare tha gawd Orthworm, or do we as a community feel differently about this mechanic now?
In any case, I think it’s worth discussing further.
If anything, i'd argue the opposite. There are plenty of incredibly strong offensive mons right now, and defensive options need to both apply pressure (Toxic, Wisp, Salt Cure) and have reliable recovery to keep up with the onslaught of 120+ base attackers introduced in gens 8 and 9.
If you aren't capable of both, and aren't named Ting-Lu, you just aren't having a very good time right now. The fact that
oh it’s a lot of strong offensive mons, but I was specifically referring to wall breakers, especially in the traditional instant offense sense.
mon’s like urshifui, or kart or Rilliaboom on the physical side are no where near as common as they’ve been in the past (they’ve been banned) you can say the same for LeLe on the special side (granted they’re doing better then the physical right now)
cutting the quote down to avoid wall of texting; I think the legitimate answer is two-fold:
1.) Shed tail costs 50% of hp, not 25%. While this is made up for in being a single move, it means that any significant chip turns the move straight off, and if you fail to sub you don't pass at all.
2.) Orthworm is so slow and spec-def weak that forcing it to HIT that 50% failure threshold isn't actually all that difficult. As much as regenerator plays a part for cyclizar, I think any mon with a god speed tier would make shed tail potentially abusive. Orthworm is not that.
In total... I don't think this should say anything about sub+bp, cause there's so many mons that applies to. Orthwrom doesn't have the stat pool to in any way make shed tail good, let alone abusive.
Both Chi-Yu and ape are banned, which both crushed stall. So you know what?
ITS TIME FOR STALL TO SHINE
Stall has less headaches. For example, I was building a stall team and posted it to OU in showdown chat. They said my team is weak to chi-Yu, so I was forced to add ROARING MOON to my stall team.
The only ”stalllbreaker" I see is iron valiant, simply because it can run both physical and special, and overwhelms mixed walls
ITS TIME FOR STALL TO SHINE
Stall has less headaches. For example, I was building a stall team and posted it to OU in showdown chat. They said my team is weak to chi-Yu, so I was forced to add ROARING MOON to my stall team.
The only ”stalllbreaker" I see is iron valiant, simply because it can run both physical and special, and overwhelms mixed walls
I actually see more usage for Scream tail, its an awesome support. With that bulk of 115/99/115 can endure some damage, appart of give to the team some support with wish. Encore, stealth rock and thunder wave are moves that would likely use as utility, and with that speed of 111, i wouldnt set Up on front of It.
Correct. And if you find a way to create a Baton Pass Chain out of Shed Tail Orthworm, a Pokémon that can pass one Substitute and no stat boosts on average once per game, then perhaps we’ll have a problem. But that’s not gonna happen; Cyclizar isn’t really comparable to Baton Pass to begin with, and certainly not Baton Pass chains. The effect Cyclizar had on OU was more comparable to the effect Light Clay screens had on UU last gen than it was to any form of Baton Pass, where one single support Pokémon punished any amount of passivity by enabling pretty much any setup sweeper on its team to setup super easily, making it possible to run a large variety of wincons to cover almost every imaginable matchup. Baton Pass, on the other hand, punished teams for not running specific tech to punish Baton Pass by converting the entire team into an engine to deal with conventional methods of preventing setup and also converting Pokémon that would not normally be wincons to begin with into wincons.
Baton Pass is a move that synergizes with itself. Shed Tail does not do this, as it’s a support move for a single recipient which can’t be chained in any way that just so happens to be strong in Cyclizar’s arsenal. It’s like what would happen if Grimmsnarl or Dondozo got Revival Blessing.
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i'm getting flashbacks to 2017
I dunno, I'm of the opinion had we not had a very limited mon pool to begin with we might've seen faster action on Cyclizar & Chi-Yu (Ape probably would've lasted longer in a bigger meta imo). While I admit you have a valid point in this entire argument about raising concerns about dry subpassing, it's been made clear prior as to why BP was illegal in the first place and why further complexity in a ban isn't the solution when it's just less of a headache to get rid of it altogether. I do however, agree this does set a funny predicament going forward where we might see self-contradicting perspectives on certain types of moves and mons that have established precedent, at least depending on how DLC or future gens are handled, which are a while away so it's not a big problem to think about right now.
RedxThree I feel it would be hard to implement. Would need a complex ban like no boosting moves + baton pass and you can get boosts without boosting moves, making this matter even more weird. I also don't think that having a shit ton of options for pivots would be very healthy
I think BP strats can be fun to use but they just aren't competitive. They belong in AG in my opinion
I think BP strats can be fun to use but they just aren't competitive. They belong in AG in my opinion
I would like to remind everyone that we did try to implement a complex ban for BP back during Gen 6. Twice. As you can imagine by the move's current lack of legality, the solutions were hilariously ineffective and only reinforced why complex bans are awful.
Besides, you guys apparently hated having Teleport everywhere during SWSH. I don't see why you'd want more free pivoting moves.
Besides, you guys apparently hated having Teleport everywhere during SWSH. I don't see why you'd want more free pivoting moves.
I don't if stall will necessarily shine but with Chi-Yu being banned it does help the stall style a lot. Even when Chi-Yu was still here, I feel like balanced was still the way to go over HO / Stall.
Chien-Pao still exists. Maybe it's not quite as strong, but it still can crush through a ton of walls and put a lot of pressure on the few that don't fold.
I was being facetious with the Orthworm remarks lol, it was more to reiterate my observation while also contrasting with humor. To the Shed v Sub point, other than the 50% v 25% HP requirements, both types of subs face identical mechanics, restraints and counterplay, so the chip damage approach still applies to both. It’s just Shed Tail is Sub + BP in one moveslot instead of two and makes Shed a higher risk-reward, which on the surface is enough to put both techniques on relatively even ground when a sub is up.
That’s the point, we’ve correctly identified that when a move like Shed Tail is given to a mon with a friendly distribution of other tools we get Cyclizar, when it’s given to a mon stripped of those tools you get Orthworm; the same approach used with Houndstone and Annihilape. This Cyclizar decision sets a precedent that we should be doing the same thing for Baton Pass users. Whether or not we like it that door is open now. That’s all this post was about, not BP chains/teams because we already have a clause for that.
Precisely, which I think it’s wise to address it now. As [Black Knight]Gawain stated, if Shed Tail gets wider distribution either through DLC or future games it won’t be shocking if there are eventual calls for suspect testing Shed Tail or re-suspecting Baton Pass.
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Covert cloak NP/Recover ghold is a solid punish to garg without relying on lure sets or getting chipped, NP will likely go off if it wants to test for cloak or protect scout, and then almost nothing enjoys switching into +2 Ghold.
I don't think the Shed Tail/Rage Fist precedent implies in any way by itself that we should consider to unrestrict subpassing and/or drypassing. If it implies anything, it's that individual baton passers should be banned if they are found to be broken instead of a blanket ban of the move. However, since the list of broken passers is probably at least a dozen Pokémon long and likely to only increase with each new experiment, especially since a lot of Pokémon got access to it since the move was originally banned via TM, it's more sensible and easier to just ban the move.
The thing is i dont think this argument holds up either as Baton Pass has consistently broken mons that were otherwise receiving 0 competitive play in their tiers - Mr. Mime, Venomoth, Gorebyss/Huntail, Ninjask, Vaporeon, Mawile, etc.
Additionally the thing about Baton Pass is its brokenness being self-reinforcing and well distributed - Baton Pass begets more Baton Pass. These things were major parts of Baton Pass being banned and have nothing to do with the assessment that Shed Tail isn't broken on bad mons. It doesn't take a good package of mons to make a broken Baton Pass package, it absolutely does for Shed Tail or at least so far we have determined.
The action there would most certainly wind up being a Shed Tail ban if it was the sole enabler of a number of `mons, not re-suspecting Baton Pass. Any complex ban around BP is too exploitable, especially with all of the ways `mons have to boost stats outside of boosting moves. You'd either have to ban any combination of a `Mon with BP and an item, move, or ability that *could* raise stats, or else it would have to be akin to Sleep Clause where the move just fails (which would give your opponent options to just block your Baton Pass usage with, say, Swagger). Either choice would be a significant amount of effort for the team maintaining Showdown just waiting for exploits to be found.
Unrelated, what Tera Types is everybody running on Garchomp? Because I'm struggling to come up with a great reason to run something other than Fire. The swapping of Ice and Fairy into resists is an obvious benefit, as is the wisp immunity if you need to check Dirge or similar that doesn't have the option to Tera, but the Steel resist is the unheralded icing on the cake. Improving your MUs into Scizor (to force it to eat more chip than it deals) and Gholdengo (so Scarf sets can't just Make it Rain on you as soon as you hit 60%) is really nice. As the last person on the planet running EdgeQuake coverage, it also lets you eat Volc for breakfast. I guess Ghost lets you block Spin, but then you're not getting contact chip on Spinners.
Been running:
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 116 HP / 140 Atk / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock / Dragon Tail / Fire Blast
140 Atk guarantees the OHKO against uninvested Dengo. I personally prioritize Spikes over Rocks, even if it makes me weird. Too many steel/ground/fighting types around plus not enough Rock-weak `mons who aren't wearing boots (combined with reduced Knock-Off distribution) makes me really prefer the flat 1/8 chip if I only have time to get one layer of hazards up.
Finally: y'all, stop running Ice Spinner on Chien-Pao. Unless terrain and/or covert cloak really start to catch on, the 100% accuracy isn't worth taking Helmet chip *and* losing the flinch chance over the long haul. Just on top of mind because I've had multiple people lead Pao into Garchomp and rage quit when I looked at their team comp and YOLO Tera'd, taking their top offensive threat to Stedge + contact chip on an Ice Spinner. Without the chip, I wouldn't have KO'd, not to mention a timely flinch would have put me in a really bad position, likely forcing me to switch out (a second flinch or a stone edge miss would probably cost me the game) with my Tera blown for the rest of the match. Super specific example, but similar situations pop up all the time.
trying to change how baton pass is claused sounds like a waste of time. the move has proven to be uncompetitive many times (cause it enables ignorant teamstyles that just wanna pull off their dumb cheese) and i think the only reason people entertain allowing dry pass or sub pass is because of precedent. if someone came and said, "woah dont ban cyclizar, just ban shed tail from passing to a mon who knows any setup moves" they'd get laughed off, but thats realistically no different than allowing drypass.
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